World Cup: how did it all go wrong for England? - The Latest

0:00Jonathan Liew:This is The Guardian.

0:10Jonathan Liew:For England to go into their shell, for Tuchel to choose to set England up like that, I find that personally quite devastating. No one knows what would have happened if we made different decisions. I'm responsible for them, I took them, so I take the criticism, that's just the way it is. Tuchel never believed in us. He never believed in our capability to do anything but defensive rearguard our way to victory. That, I think, is going to sting for quite a while. It's like finding out that Daddy doesn't love you. From the Guardians today in Focus, this is The Latest with me, Annie Kelly.

0:46So England have crashed out of the World Cup. We're all very gutted to see them not make their first final in 60 years. Johnny Liu, you are a Guardian columnist and a football writer. I'd hate to bring up the fact that the last time that you were on the latest, you predicted an England win in this World Cup. Obviously, sadly, you were wrong. So what's your post-match analysis? What happened last night?

1:12Jonathan Liew:You know, frankly, I'm incredibly disappointed because I believed right up until the 85th minute that they had enough to... that had the players and the tactics and the coach to be what I think was an inferior Argentina side. But what happened is, you know, there will be a lot of emphasis put on Thomas Tuchel's substitutions. I think what happened in the rot set in a little bit earlier, England were dropping and dropping and dropping far too deep, far too early. Instead of going for a second goal, they allowed the game to compress. They allowed an Argentina side that doesn't have a huge amount of pace, that has been through exhausting games in their own progress through the knockout stages to play exactly the game they wanted, patiently trying to break them down.

2:08Jonathan Liew:Lionel Messi, while the greatest player of all time, is 39 years old. A stretched game, a quick game, a game of quick decisions and transitions doesn't suit him at all. And it doesn't suit a lot of that Argentina side. And England willingly acquiesced to the game that Argentina wanted to play. It was a suicide note. Right. Tuchel's fault? Should he carry the gun for this? Yeah, totally. I mean, I think there is a lot to be said for, you know, the English, the mentality, the kind of the fear of failure that tends to grip players. And Tuchel is by no means the only coach who has seen his side play like this or kind of retreats to these tactics.

2:52But there was so much expectation, wasn't he? There was so much different and he would bring that like will to win.

2:57Jonathan Liew:Yes, and I think he has much more control over this England squad than certainly Gareth Southgate did at the last three tournaments. And in fact, many of his predecessors, he is such a micro manager. He has spent the last 18 months going through every single possible detail of exactly how games like this will pan out. thinking not just about the tactics and the spaces and the contingencies, but the mentality, how players react under pressure and how to train them to make the right decisions. Given that, given that he is a coach who was very specifically hired for the job of getting England through these games, it is a failure.

3:39Jonathan Liew:There's no other way. If you bring in the guy who's supposed to win the World Cup and he doesn't win the World Cup, it's a fairly open and shut case. How do you count for that decision? It seemed you talk about mentality. It did seem like he didn't believe that England could do it when he suddenly kind of filled the fields with defenders. I mean, I'm talking for as a non-football person here. It seemed very much that he bottled it as much as you say maybe the players did. Yeah, I mean, this is this is I think why for a lot of England fans, I think this is why it's so hurtful. I think this one stings so much more than France four years ago, maybe even Spain two years ago, who were very demonstrably a better side.

4:21Jonathan Liew:Argentina are not demonstrably a better side than England. I will argue that till the cows come home. They have a supreme individual talent and frankly, some quite mediocre players around him. And for England to go into their shell, for Tuchel to choose to set England up like that, I find that personally quite devastating. Because you can rationalise a lot of the decisions he took in terms of personnel, in terms of not taking Phil Foden or Cole Palmer to the World Cup. You can rationalise a lot of the choices he made in defence during the tournament. You can rationalise certainly the rearguard against Mexico, where you're a player down, against Norway, where it's incredibly hot.

5:04Jonathan Liew:But in an air-conditioned stadium, in a World Cup semi-final where you're 1-0 up, you've got the momentum and you've got 11 men on the pitch. I find that really disappointing that Tuchel still decides to go to take England into that little defensive crouch. Because what that tells me is that maybe he didn't believe in these players at all. There is so much fervour and optimism and belief out in the country about what these players can do and what this squad can do. that they could finally sort of break this drought. And we thought that he believed in us too. And to find out that he didn't really, Tuchel never believed in us.

5:44Jonathan Liew:He never believed in our capability to do anything but frown and grimace and shithouse and defensive rearguard our way to victory against an inferior team. That, I think, is going to sting for quite a while. It's like finding out that daddy doesn't love you. Yeah. And so you don't love yourself. Well, exactly. Exactly. You know, he's the arch pragmatist. He's always been a pragmatic coach. But pragmatic coaches are not necessarily defensive coaches. When pragmatic coaches go defensive, I think it says a lot about their mentality and what they think of the players they've been given. You're clearly, you know, really angry at Tuchel.

6:24It was also like a really charged match, wasn't it? There's so much history between the two sides in the build up. And, you know, you had the Argentinian players very shortly after they'd won on the pitch, all standing behind a big Las Malvinas son Argentina's flag. The Malvinas being the Argentinian word for the Falkland Islands. Obviously, you know, that is a historic beef between England and Argentina after the 1982 Falklands War. Downing Street's now waded in and said, we might not have got the World Cup, but we do have the Falkland Islands. It all just seems a bit petty. I mean, where is this all going, do you think?

7:01Jonathan Liew:Well, it's, I mean, in terms of where the Malvinas-Falklands conflict stands in kind of Argentinian society, this is an open sore. It's an open wound that's been running for four decades. If anything has become deeper and more traumatic for them in recent years, you know, the Falklands, the Malvinas veterans are an incredibly powerful vocal group in society. Most towns in Argentina will have a kind of a veterans group. It is there in their consciousness, perhaps in a similar way to how the Second World War was in Britain. It's a national obsession. When I lived in Argentina and it was just, there is no way anyone is forgetting about this.

7:44And it was just so interesting to see the players feel boldly enough about it that they would stand behind that flag shortly after kicking England down the car. Right.

7:53Jonathan Liew:You know, a lot of the songs the players have been singing reference the Malvinas, the reference the victims, you know, of that conflict. Whereas, you know, I guess if you asked, I'd love to see the 26 players in the England squad play one of those GeoGuessr type games and try and pinpoint the Falkland Islands on a map and how many of them would get remotely close to it. So it does occupy a different space in Argentina than it does here. And, you know, unveiling that banner, which I think has happened before and they did in a friendly some years ago, but not on this stage and not to this kind of audience.

8:29Jonathan Liew:And FIFA is extremely stringent. It's extremely clear about its stance on political statements. And we wait to see if they have the backbone to speak out against its darling team and its darling player in the same way they did about, for example, poppies. Right. And also, it was a very bad tempered match, wasn't it? So I would assume that this beef between the two teams is not going anywhere. The match last night may have just exacerbated that historical kind of wrangling between those two sides. It'll be interesting to see when they next meet again. Yeah, it just adds layers and layers to it.

9:07Jonathan Liew:I mean, Jonathan Wilson, a colleague of ours, calls it an Oedipal relationship. Right. Every time they play, which is not often these days, it's not been since 2005 in a friendly, not competitively since 2002. And absence has not made the heart grow fonder. No. Proximity, you know, a lot of these players play in the same, play in the Premier League or play in leagues around Europe. They are well acquainted with each other. That doesn't help things. It doesn't improve the environment when it gets to the World Cup. And yeah, it does deepen the rivalry. It becomes another chapter in the legend. And I think I would be surprised if Argentina didn't get an invite to Wembley at some point in the next couple of years.

9:52Jonathan Liew:I think there is too much riding. There was too much fervor and frankly too much money to be made out of that rivalry. And, you know, you're obviously feeling pretty gutted. I think everybody is all everyone is talking about today. I just wonder if you could leave us with any feelings of optimism. Like, do you feel that we can be optimistic about this England team? Do you think that there is anything to look forward to? I think so. I mean, we've seen in previous tournaments how close England have got without necessarily playing that well. You could almost argue that after decades of being an underachieving tournament team, England are now arguably an overachieving team who pretty much expect to get to quarterfinals at a very minimum, semifinals, finals.

10:44Jonathan Liew:and once you are, you know, once you put yourself in that position enough times, once you put yourself in that situation, as Pep Guardiola would say, you create these situations for yourself. Eventually you do get over the line. I genuinely believe that. And we did make a semi-final of the World Cup. That's something to be really happy about as well, right? And led it until the 85th minute. You know, that's not nothing. I hate to bring up predictions, but the match on Sunday, Spain v Argentina. Who's your money on? I think Spain will wipe the floor with them I don't necessarily think it'll be the 4-0 that they beat Italy by in the Euro 2012 final I don't think that team is quite on the 2012 level but the gulf in between them the superiority in midfield the superiority physically, defensively and in terms of the confidence and the momentum that they'll have taken from the France game I think that was Argentina's final last night I don't think they will try to raise their game they will compete.

11:42Jonathan Liew:I mean, look, my predictions have, as you know, been wrong. But I just don't see this as a classic. Well, Johnny, thank you so much. Oh, cheers. And I'm sorry. No, no, it's OK. It's not your fault. That's it for today. My huge thanks again to Jonathan Liu. If you haven't already, I really recommend listening to this morning's episode of Today in Focus, where Helen Pitt spoke to the friends, colleagues and mentors of Andy Burnham to find out more about the man soon to be our Prime Minister. Thanks for listening to this episode of The Latest. Today in Focus, we'll be back in your feeds tomorrow morning and The Latest will be back tomorrow night.

12:20This episode was produced by Annie La Vespa. The senior producer was Ryan Ramgobin. The executive producer was Zoe Hitch. And the presenter was me, Annie Kelly.

12:33Jonathan Liew:The World Cup's entering its final stages and if you want football punditry from a podcast that's been overanalyzing the game for more than 20 years, then join me, Max Roshton, and a host of football experts as we keep delivering shows every day until the end of the World Cup. The Guardian's World Cup Daily, available wherever you get your podcasts. This is The Guardian.