Zack Polanski on the Green party boom

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:07Today, inside the Green Party surge, and Zach Polanski's vision for Britain.

0:25It's a cold, wet December evening outside a lecture hall at King's College London. We're waiting to meet Zach Polanski. Alongside hundreds of excitable students forming cues to get into tonight's event. Well we released tickets and I think they all sold out pretty much completely within an hour. And I was at the student pub the other night after our politics ball and the bartender came up to me and she was like, Oh have you got any Polanski tickets left? And I was like, I'm really sorry no. And then also with these events... Just a few months ago, few people had even heard of Zach Polanski, or cared who the leader of the Green Party was.

1:02But the Polanski surge has been unstoppable. He's more than doubled the party's membership in less than 100 days. He's all over social media feeds. I think more and more people are joining the Green Party because they're totally unhappy with what this Labour government are offering. Podcasts. Thank you very much for having me. What a lovely introduction. Primetime TV. Who would you cast to play climate change in a movie? Nigel Farage is full of hot air anyway.

1:33The left may be in chaos, but Polanski is connecting with audiences. And in a hostile political environment, he's unashamedly himself. Gay, Jewish, pro-Palestine, Mancunian, vegan. And the major parties seem worried. How's he doing it? And how far could the Greens go? From The Guardian, I'm Nosheen Iqbal. Today in Focus. Why it's not just Gen Z who love their greens.

2:07Ostensibly, we're all here for the event that Zach Polanski is hosting this evening. Can you tell me why it appeals to you and what you hope to get from it? I'm very enthused by him as a person. And so I feel like this kind of movements are bringing hope in a time where things feel really difficult and quite dark. And I think that hope, you know, this idea of hope is really exciting and spreads a lot amongst young people. So, yeah. I'd say he's very relatable that like he was on the last leg, I think it was about a month ago. So he just spoke like anybody kind of would. and I find that really appealing because he's not kind of got a certain politician sort of tone or way that he speaks.

2:54He just kind of says what he believes, essentially.

3:04Hello. How are you doing? How's it going? Good, how are you? Very good, thanks. The last time we spoke to Zak Polanski was in September, on the day he was elected leader of the Green Party. Now, because of the party's own rules, he's officially only got about nine months left before another leadership contest. Zach, how's it going? It's going really well. I think you always balance it between the turmoil that this country is in and also that the world is in with the mass enjoyment of the fact that since I was elected just over two months ago, we've had 100 ,000 new members. There's polls where we're polling above the Labour government and I can't get very far in the street or on my bike without people telling me how excited they are.

3:45so it's a mixture of lots of emotions but more than anything it just feels like a lot is happening and there's a lot to achieve and it's all to play for. Well I was going to say the last time we met you seemed very enthusiastic and giddy and that has not seemed to dim. I expected there to be more weariness like yes the job is very hard but of course the job is hard. Can you tell me about what the challenges have been so far? I think the first challenge is around money so resourcing. That's got a lot better since we've had 100 ,000 new members. Isn't that equivalent to about four million extra pounds?

4:16I think it's about four and a half million pounds at this point. So all of that is good. But then when you look at the last election, the Green Party spent, I think, a million pounds reform. And I think the Liberal Democrats were around four to five million pounds. Then you've got the Tories on 20 million pounds and then Labour on 30 million pounds. So the gap is still pretty, pretty huge. And what does that mean to people who don't understand politics or what that money's for? Or they hear four million pounds? What are the Green Party going to be using it for? So some of its basic things like social media advertising and then probably more than important than anything is staff team all around the country.

4:52So people who are able to organize groups of volunteers in our regions. We already have those staff members. But just to give you a kind of indication of how much we're punching above our weight for the last year or two, we've had between one or two staff members who are responsible for the whole of London, for example. It's a bit like a startup that is growing so exponentially and so quickly that every single day there's new opportunities. but that also brings with it new challenges. But there's an interesting analogy there because a lot of people who have been or core founding members of the Green Party for decades would argue that this isn't a startup, we're an established thing.

5:25And what you're bringing is this sort of startup energy of moving fast and breaking things. And they may feel quite worried about that. What's your response to those kinds of criticisms or fears? It's genuinely not been my experience. It was something I was expecting and something I was getting ready for. But actually people are just really excited. they recognise the danger of reform, whether that's on the climate crisis and their kind of climate denying or at least climate delaying interventions or it's for Labour government. We've got Shabana Mahmood, you know, Farage is saying jump and we've got a Labour government who is saying how high and people in this country are terrified.

6:00And so whether in the Green Party or not, I think people are just really grateful and hopeful that there's a party that are saying the things that need to be said and taking the action that needs to be taken. Does that mean everyone agrees with me on every word? Absolutely not. I don't need people to agree with me on every word. I just need us to have common cause. And I think the common cause is tackling inequality in the climate crisis. What do you think is connecting about your message in particular? And I'm thinking about the 100 ,000 extra members that you've added to the Greens. I almost don't need to speculate because people tell me all the time and it's that it's positive and it's hopeful and it doesn't feel like it's just about swiping at the parties, although that's certainly part of it sometimes.

6:38But actually going, this is what a different vision of a society looks like, where it's not about multimillionaires and billionaires and corporations who are destroying our environment, destroying our democracy and destroying our communities. But actually, it's about people power. What can you tell me about the demographics of the new member signups? There's been polling a lot in the last couple of weeks that shows that under 50s were polling really well. And that's certainly a big section of the new people who have joined. So actually, that's one of the really exciting things here. It's a really diverse coalition.

7:06And what I think will become increasingly interesting is when you look at the people who are supporting reform, they're a really diverse coalition, but those groups don't have much of a unifying cause. So you can see how that could be quite fragile quite quickly. In the Green Party, it's a diverse coalition, but it has a really common cause, which again is tackling inequality. What can you tell me about the hotspots or any particular places that have gone more green than others? Yeah, so somewhere that is unexpected is the North East. We have over doubled our membership across England and Wales, but I believe it's nearly tripled in the northeast.

7:40Now I don't think that's a coincidence because I was in Darlington a few weeks ago and South Shields. These are places where reform are already starting to break through. So when you're having conversations at rallies or at community events the idea of reform administrations is not some abstract idea. It's not about talking about a future threat. Those communities are facing that threat right now and I think that is mobilizing people quicker to action to go I can't just allow this to happen so actually I'm getting involved with the Green Party. Wales also has seen a huge spike in membership. I think that's because we've got an incredibly important set of elections next May in the Senate.

8:13I think it's generally accepted now that we're going to win at least one seat, which is amazing because we've never had a seat in the Senate before. But actually, we're also having conversations about two seats. Now, if I was a politician into expectation management, I'd just stop there and say that's amazing. But it's fair to say we're having internal conversations about even three seats. now that's a bit more of a stretch yeah but that is a demonstration of how quick and how fast we're having to scale up to go from winning one seat for the first time would be incredible to going actually what happens if we got three seats

8:52when we last spoke and it was just as you've been elected leader of the green party obviously there'd been a lot of speculation in the press prior to you winning that there was going to be a split within the party in terms of what the traditional core voters wanted and your approach, which arguably was framed as being quite lefty populism. You've said that you haven't actually counted much of that from the Green Party core, but has there been any worry about alienating potential future voters who thought they were getting one thing with the Greens and actually are getting Zach Polanski and his message?

9:25I don't think so at all because I think the party message has always been essentially about tackling inequality and tackling the climate crisis. I think it is a fair observation that I am communicating it in a different way but actually the core message is the same. I suppose the one tension I'm observing all the time is about the way I speak about reform. So you'll have noticed I'm not shy about saying that Nigel Farage is a complete charlatan. He's a man, he says he's a man of the people, but he's actually a man of the wealthy people. He claims to be a populist, but he literally defends the 1 % rather than 99%.

9:57So he's a complete anti-populist. That all being said, I do want to speak and communicate with reform voters. That's very different to the reform leadership and the reform MPs. So a tension I'm always thinking about is how do I make sure that I'm criticising reform, but anyone who's curious about voting for reform doesn't hear about it as a criticism of them. In fact, I feel the opposite. it. Often they are the people who have faced the worst effects of austerity and actually need the Green Party almost more than any other group. How do you propose doing that? How do you broaden your horizons and who Green Party is appealing to in the way that you said that you want to?

10:31One sober podcast, very specifically Bold Politics, never miss a chance to plug, is that actually, I'll be honest, when I initially launched it, the idea was that I thought I'd have people from the right on it as well and people could hear me argue for the merits of the issues. and I realised very quickly that I'm spending my life on the media in the lion's den whether it's I won't name media organisations but so you're always arguing the right it feels like yeah I'm just in those spaces all the time and people can see that anytime they turn on the tv I'm going to continue to go into spaces with people that I disagree with so that's one way I want to win people over but also I recognise none of this really happens on the media or on podcasts it's when I'm going into communities I'm spending an immense amount of time around the country as well both in England and Wales

11:21Zach, given the vast number of disaffected Labour voters, how much do you care about building a strong left-wing base and consensus versus bringing centrists into the tent as well? I think it's both. And I don't think we can allow it to be binary. Inequality affects you whether you live in a town, a village or a city. and so whether you voted for Keir Starmer because you wanted change but actually seen that you've got more of the same I can imagine why that person would want a green party or if you're someone who's voted conservative but recognize you've now got a leader who's pretty much a climate denier or she would say a climate delayer she doesn't believe in net zero then you need a strong green party and so I think it just speaks to the fact that the center has moved so far to the right and the entire discourse has got so extreme that actually such a huge space has created most obviously for me on the left but I would argue on the centre too that actually I do think the Green Party can quite easily occupy and is occupying that huge space that's been left.

12:17Okay well let's talk about that huge space because we've just witnessed quite a shambolic few months for your party they've just conducted their first conference and claim at least 2 ,500 reported to have attended the weekend in Liverpool. How hard will you be fighting to convert those into Greens? As much as I'm fighting or campaigning hard to move anyone to the Green Party, so I'm not obsessing about one project or one political party. What did Jeremy Corbyn say when you proposed that he joined the Green Party? He said the same thing that he's saying publicly, that he doesn't think it's socialist enough.

12:52But I'm never quite sure what the specifics of that mean, because when you look at our party policies, whether it's for workers to aim a means of production, to nationalise our public services, to reduce inequality, to make sure that we have citizens' assemblies, to make sure that communities have their libraries, their spaces, that councils are properly funded, that we're taxing wealth and power in this country. It sounds pretty socialist to me. And so I look, you know, when they come up with more detail, then we'll be able to compare policies. Do you fear the reputational damage or fallout from those who are desperate to paint the left collectively as a mess, unfit to lead, built on utopian fantasy politics?

13:29because that is the majority view of a swathe of the British media and then by default British public. So whether you like it, loathe it, tolerate it, it has to be engaged with. So how do you propose to do so and how worried are you about what's happening over there with the part of the left and how it affects the Greens? It's really frustrating to watch because when I'm on a panel, very often if there's four guests, it's me and then there's the other three guests with pretty much the same opinion with slight different nuance. and so the idea of having more voices on the left pushing on the same campaigns or issues that I am I think is an opportunity or there was an opportunity there if they got it right.

14:07That would have been a good thing. It wouldn't be competition it would have been a good thing to have a stronger your party. I think it can be both at the same time so I think it clearly would be competition but also I think being much more magnanimous about that and I really believe it I think having more national voices on the left who are pushing on the same issues just ultimately helps to push the Overton window, the kind of window of what's acceptable in discourse, is actually really helpful.

14:39You've got, if I've got this right, about nine months left. How do you ensure the momentum keeps building? And is there any discussion, in fact, to change the rules so that your term is longer? I think there is discussion happening, but I genuinely am not part of those conversations for obvious reasons. But I hear every so often that those conversations are moving on. I think whether that's, you know, whether it's nine months, or whether it's a year and nine months, or two years and nine months, whatever it might be, I think the answer is the same, to be honest, which is to keep focused on the prize.

15:07But you know, I'm interested in, and you'll keep coming back to it, but your top three priorities in the next nine months, where do you hope to leave the Green Party come next September? I want people to know that with the party of housing, so to keep making the case for building council housing. We have a Labour government who say there's a housing crisis, but actually what we have is an affordability crisis. They want to remove quotas of affordable housing, which seems like the most incoherent possible position. At the same time, they want to destroy nature in the name of housing. They say it's about, you know, not letting bats and newts stop housing.

15:39Notice they don't say it's about beavers or otters, because beavers or otters are loved by the British population. And so I see a real argument to protect nature and to say that we need to build housing at the same time. I think second is about winning the economic arguments. I'd say we're getting there with the wealth tax. We now know that 75 % of the British public support wealth tax. It wouldn't raise that much though comparatively to what is needed. So what else is there? Well, I'd caveat by saying it is massive and I agree with the question. There's still a lot more that needs to be done.

16:09But if you go a 1 % tax or a 2 % tax on assets of£10 million or more could raise you between£12 and£14 billion. it is astronomically ridiculous that this government didn't just go actually when this is incredibly popular and we have this so-called black hole which is a whole nother conversation you wouldn't have gone 12 to 14 billion pounds let's have that also bringing capital gains tax in line with income tax that just means we're taxing unearned wealth as much as we're taxing earned income because right now you could be the cleaner of this building but paying more in tax by proportion than the person who owns the building that's fundamentally unfair that all being said to come to your question more directly i do think that's also true we need to be making the argument for investment so every pound that you spend uh on capital infrastructure if it's on green investment for instance you get one pound 88 back so uh this government and certainly uh people who describe themselves as the sensibles of the professionals would say yeah yeah the grown-ups would say you can't afford to build infrastructure right now you can't afford to invest but actually we can't afford not to we know particularly around the climate crisis that the cost of inaction is so much more expensive than the cost of action.

17:16I just came from a meeting with the London Fire Brigade where they were talking about the wildfires and floods that are now baked in. It's not that even if we mitigate the emissions, these wildfires or floods won't come. They are coming whatever now. The question is, what is the severity of them and how can we reduce the impact of them? And how can we spend money on climate adaptation so when they do come, the people who have done the least to cause them, i.e. the poorest communities, don't face the worst effects. Again, this government seems to be completely absent from that conversation. And I really see that as a priority to really focus in the next year or two about making the argument about the cost of inaction.

17:50Zach, what is the most enjoyable thing about your job? And conversely, what's the most difficult? Actually, they're the same thing. So the most enjoyable thing is when I'm walking around and cycling and just people coming up to me and telling me stories. And there are days where I just want to get about and buy a pint of milk from the shop and I'm being stopped for a selfie. and that's very, very lovely, but also is disruptive to your life. And I'd be lying if I didn't say there's moments where I go, I just want to put my hoodie up and hide away. But, you know, that's what I've signed up for and it's an absolute privilege.

18:23And I would like to welcome you all here today. And it's a great privilege to welcome Zach Polanski to King's College London.

18:40Thank you. And thanks so much all for being here. It's really appreciated. I actually hadn't realised until this moment it's three months tomorrow. So this is like the eve of my three-month anniversary. What did you make of this evening? I was very sceptical at first. My initial view of the Green Party was, you know, they're just environmental fairies. I didn't have a lot of stances on issues that are facing ordinary working class people, such as housing, immigration, all sorts. But coming today really changed my mind. Really? Yeah. Are you signing up to the Green Party then? Most likely, most likely, yes.

19:21I mean, I was skeptical. Skeptical member. Yeah. Also, one quick thing. I know I'm yabbing a bit too long, but I know something might be insignificant. But whenever I ask, I got a picture with him just now. and every time he asked, when someone asked for a picture, he'd be like, can I put my arm around you? The fact that he asked for consent and he's such a respectful gentleman, I really loved that about him. You don't see that a lot with a lot of people. Could I ask you to introduce yourself? Yeah, so hi, I'm Oliver. I am a second year politics student at King's College London. And what did you make of this evening?

19:53It was fantastic. I cannot describe to you how much hope I feel after so, so much despair. What is it about Zach that gives you that sense of optimism as a trans person? He's the only person that's willing to talk to us head on like we're humans. I mean, Keir Starmer and I always talk around us, like the trans debate, you know, how it's framed as this. We're always trans activists. We're always these people that are demanding oh so much. Zach is the only person on the current or in the kind of mainstream of the political debate currently that talks to trans people like they're humans and about people, trans people like they're humans.

20:30All we want is one person to listen, and I think we finally found that one person that's willing to listen in the political mainstream.

20:39Coming up, can Zach Polanski sustain this huge momentum? him.

20:57Randi Ramesh, you're The Guardian's chief leader writer, which means you write the editorials that speak as the voice of the paper on the big events of the day. I essentially see you as my age. Now, Zach Polanski, what do you make of him as a political communicator? Well, I think he's probably one of the best political communicators at frontline British politics. But maybe that's not saying much given the other party leaders comprise of very bad communicators. Zach Polanski has emotional range. He's able to do connection. He's able to articulate an alternative vision. That's very effective. Interesting enough, At Labour Party conference, John Curtis in one of the fringe panels singled out Zach Polanski for his synoptic ability, which means he was able to synthesise a moral vision and then hang policies off it.

21:48And he said Labour should be aware of this. And I think that's true. And Randy, what about green policies? What do you make of the substance of what Zach is talking about at the moment, being a wealth tax, affordable housing, economic, social, environmental justice? On environmental and social justice, I think those two things, they're effectively linked by the Greens. They were in the last manifesto with very strong offers on housing, which are clearer, I would say, than Labour's offer. And also on the climate. Now, you'll see that being tested with Labour probably giving the Green light for Rose Bank, the big oil field in the North Sea, and the Greens opposing it.