Meet The World's Most Advanced AI Sales Team | with Amanda Kahlow, Founder & CEO @ 1mind

0:00I truly believe there will be a collapse of like the go-to-market functions and silos, like marketing, sales, customer success are all going to collapse together. That's Amanda Kahlow, the founder and CEO of OneMind. She previously founded Sixth Sense and put it on the path to a multi-billion dollar valuation. And today she's building AI agents designed to fundamentally reshape go-to-market. I think this is one of the things most go-to-market teams are getting wrong, is they're looking at AI to create efficiency gains. But I don't think that's going to move the needle. Amanda shares how her AI agents aren't just sending top-of-funnel emails.

0:33They are actively leading conversations in live, multi-hundred-thousand-dollar enterprise deals. The CPO was like, Amanda, shut up, basically. I want to talk to Nigel. And then, as a result, we now have a$278 ,000 deal from one in-person meeting. Plus, we discuss why bottom-up AI adoption is a mistake, why AI negotiating with other AIs may be closer than you think, and Amanda issues a warning. The worst thing we can do is pretend that... Welcome to Topline.

1:28pose. Amanda, what's the best tagline? What is your preferred tagline for One Mind? Oh, that's a really good question. Basically, yeah, we're building superhumans to help companies grow, but more than anything, to delight their buyers. If I can create a better buying experience, we win. Everybody wins. I believe it, baby. Well, welcome back to the show. We're happy to have you. Everybody doing well. Asit, how are you? Your hair looks great. Thank you. I have to say, Asad, I've always thought you were very attractive. Thank you. I concur. I concur. Okay. This is going to be a fun conversation. Amanda, we have you back.

2:08We're going to talk about the future of go-to-market finally. You have a front row seat. And the timing is really good because you're coming on just after the CRO of OpenAI published this post where the title of the post is sales as we know it is over. That's a good thing. And I was reading the post and she's talking about how they're using AI. And I was looking for more than I got out of it. It kind of was like, oh, we can do research better. And, you know, we don't have to click to go look at a dashboard. We can ask for the dashboard data. So it just felt like a lot of the same stuff that you hear of.

2:47But I can't. To me, that's not the stuff that like changes sales or changes go to market. And so the starting off point would be there's very few people that have probably the sort of front row seat to how AI is changing go-to-market than you, because a lot of your buyers for what you sell are probably the most forward -thinking go-to-market teams out there. What are you seeing at the very edge, the best, most AI-built go-to-market team? What does that look and feel like, and how do you contrast that to the standard and the past? Yeah, yeah. So great point about that, you know, the open AI post.

3:29I think this is one of the things I believe most go-to-market teams are getting wrong at the highest level, is they're looking at AI to create efficiency gains. And they're looking at it, like in the post she was talking about forecasting and creating better insights and all the information and the data is at my fingertips. All that's, yes, great, all and well. But I don't think that's going to move the needle. That's going to create minor efficiency gains to make the people that you have more productive. My thesis is that buying and selling happens in the conversation, right? So when you're actually talking to somebody and you're moving the needle and you're changing hearts and minds.

4:07And so all this stuff that happens around the conversation to enable a seller is yesterday's workflow and yesterday's process. Today, if we think about it from a beginner's mindset, think of the tools like what AI affords us today. Humans, everything that we've built, all the systems we've built and all the people we hire is all built around a human at the center. Every tool we have, CRM, marketing automation, all the engagement tools, everything is built with how do I make a seller better and how do I make it more efficient and effective? But now we can actually shift the conversation. And look, we're just beginning.

4:46This is, I'm not everything I'm going to talk, what I'm talking about here, we're not 100 % there yet. This is like, but if we look at technology, what it's capable of, that's what gets me excited. Where are we going type of thing? Like where's the realistic end point? That AI should be the center of outcome driven events and it really having those conversations with your buyers, whether it be for, you know, your PLG motion top of funnel or whether it be on calls to move the needle, shorten sales cycles, increase ACV, and see real ROI and real revenue impact versus efficiency gains. Amanda, where do you think humans exist in the current buying and selling process of the universe?

5:29Now or in the future? I don't know. What's your prediction for where it's heading? Where are we heading? Because in the past, you've said all humans will be obsolete. There was no role for humanity. That wasn't the start. That was not the start. Game over for all of us. You said it. You said it. That wasn't the start. It was on that side. Oh, yeah. Fable gets two times better. Let's play this thought exercise. Fable gets two times better. What happens? Well, I mean, basically, okay, so I believe, so the roles as we know them are gone. That's what I believe. Oh, yeah. The world as we know it is gone and is we're not going to in 12 months from now, I truly believe there will be a collapse of like the go to market functions and silos like marketing, sales, customer success are all going to collapse together.

6:21Humans are going to be managing outcomes. Systems are going to be built for outcomes and humans are going to be managing first touch to close to renewal to upsell. because the AI is going to not only do all the things that we saw in that OpenAI article about the forecasting and the looking up the account and doing all the research and all the tasks and the automation, but AI is also gonna be the communication. AI is also gonna be the trusted advisor and the source of information. It's gonna be onboarding customers, teaching them how to get the most out of it, building for them. Like one of the things we're releasing right now is we call it live demo, but it's not just a demo.

6:53It actually builds inside of products and tools for our customers. So you can go in and build a superhuman with our superhuman live agent that builds the superhuman as you talk to it. So I want it for this purpose. I want it to do this. I want to bring this content in. And it goes in and actually does it for you. So you're no longer going to have the CSM that's going to help build the superhuman or build any software or make changes within the software. So I think humans will still have an overlay to those outcomes and be like a checkpoint through the source of truth. But the role and the capacity of what they're taking on is going to be exponential, what we have today.

7:30Is that like role that they're going to play? Is that like you're being kind and leaving like a human in the mix? Like, but reality is that if they can, if the AI can do all this middle stuff, right, like that you just mentioned, that AI is good enough to do the overlay stuff, too. You know what I mean? Like, then how much of a role does that human have? Is it just that like you'll have this one like engineered or market person that's orchestrating like a lot of this stuff? And so where team needs like 30 people, they need one person. Like, is that the realistic end point we're trying to get to?

8:05Well, I think it's like humans play the role of discernment. And like we talk about taste, everybody's like really fixated on this taste conversation. Right. And gives us a lot of really good ideas. But I do think at the end of it, like there's still a place for a human. but I actually think my role is going to be fundamentally different too like I mean I'm trying to automate as much of my stuff away as possible so I can go live in Spain like Sam what are you saying about my work ethic Sam automated his job away two years ago and that's why he's in Spain automated ain't nothing automated I just taught piano fluency again Amanda what have you what have you automated from your day-to-day life like from AI One of my favorite things is so basic, but I swear to God, it's the biggest time saver.

8:53And every CEO out there and every go-to-market leader who has a network and you're leveraging your network for ghost notes, like the process of the ghost note for me, like, so everyone who gets notes from me now probably knows now they're not me necessarily. but you know they come to my inbox from salesforce like i can like i'll edit it i just hit send i don't have to like pull in the content read it edit it do the thing it's just like a there's an agent that does that with my ghost note what's a ghost note yeah yeah what is a ghost note you're like these guys are dinosaurs i think she's talking about you're talking about like granola or anything that gets like and then it gets sent no no no no no you dinosaur let her tell This is hilarious.

9:38I don't know if this is a real question or not. Do you guys really not know what a ghost note is? No, no, honestly, I have no idea. Sam's not laughing, so it's a real question. Sam's upset. He's like, I wish I could have laughed. I'm Googling it right now. How dare you? He's using Ask Jeeves to ask what a ghost note is. Sam, you will learn very soon what a ghost note is because I'm going to ask you to send some on my behalf. So when I want you to send something to somebody, I'm like, hey, Sam, I need you to get me to like Kyle. I know Kyle really well, but let's say I needed to get to Kyle Norton.

10:10And I'm like, I need you to what you would say is like write it for me. Tell me exactly what to say. And then then I'll send it. Right. So I get like 50 of those a day. Right. And it used to be I'd have to copy it for my team because I know a lot of people across our, you know, Oregon, like we're in customers doing this. And so they want me to like open. I cannot I can't manage it anymore. And I can't be the one to open our pipeline or do anything. so that whole process has been completely automated for us um and it was just a massive time suck it would take me almost two hours a day to get through all this shit and so now instead i'm just like clicking a button and it goes right so i look at it i edit i know what a ghost note is now thank you for clarifying that and i do i don't do 50 a day i probably do like 10 a day it's not unreal but it's always in like a thread in slack and then they'll they'll i'll coffee and pain in the ass.

11:00Okay. What are you using to automate that process? Like what? I don't know. My team did it. Look, I'm not in the details, AJ. I don't know what they did, but they made my life so easy where now it comes to my inbox. I click on a button. I look at it. It has the pertinence in the two, and then it has the rep VCC'd, so they can see that I did it. It checks off the box and then goes over and sells them that they did it. And here are the edits that I made, but it just goes out and makes my life like exponentially easier. Like things like that is that's where like all the shit that we have to do is.

11:36And the other piece that we're automating, you know, is just the engagement with our customers. Like we haven't previously done this and this isn't myself, but when we sign on a new customer, our superhuman can now onboard the customer, can walk them through the product, can do the things like all these pieces. When we have problems inside of the org where I'm like, oh, shit, we're scaling fast. And I'm not going to lie. We've got some things that we got to work out. We're like, oh, God, OK, this is breaking over here. What are we doing? The first thing we look to is like, can we put a superhuman there?

12:07Can they fix the problem? And it's amazing that it can. Now, it still takes some time in some of these new processes and having all the integrations to come in and have the superhuman have all the information about the account so that it engages the buyer in the right way. But once we figure it out, it's infinitely scalable. And so that is what the beauty of what we're building is. It's still really hard in like some of these obscure off use cases, like the inbound one, like makes all the sense in the world. Everybody can do it till their cows come home. But on these other use cases, other roles that they play, it takes a minute, but it's worth every minute.

12:42What's a superhuman use case that you didn't think was going to work, but has actually ended up working and is like actually doing a pretty good job? Well, AJ, if you knew me, I'm like a really optimistic person. So I think everything is going to work until it doesn't. And then I'm the quickest person to say, okay, it didn't work. Fucking can it. Let's go. So I go through life half full. Like that's just, you know, no matter what happens, I'm going to try to find the positive. Like we're going to learn something from this. So I tend to think most of these things. Well, one of the things I don't want, I don't think this doesn't work.

13:15It doesn't completely answer your question. But what I don't want to be doing with our superhumans is I don't want to be doing enablement. I don't want to help people learn with the superhumans. I want our thesis is I want to be engaging your customers and your buyers. And I want to make their life better versus enabling the sellers to like have the prep or like the coaching or, you know, the swivel chair in the call. Like that doesn't work for me. I really want to be answering the question. And they can learn by the superhuman answering. Does that not work for you? Is that like a philosophical perspective?

13:47Is it a market perspective? Like, you know, Avaro, there's all these, that's a competitive market, that this is white space for us. Is that how you're coming to that position? I think part of it is like, we have to like get clear on what we're doing and we can't do everything. We already are doing so much. So our positioning is that we are customer facing. And so everything we do, we are going to engage with your customers and make the customer's life better. And if this doesn't make the customer's life better, it's not a perfect fit for one mind. And it's been hard. I've had to walk away from some like really big deals because they want to use us for enablement or for coaching.

14:24Now, I will get into like there are a cute like we just signed a very, very big logo that they're going to use it for coaching and then bring it on the call. So it's like a transition to like getting comfortable with it, which actually that is an enablement of a superhuman. the change management is one of the hardest things, especially when it's engaging with your reps. So we bring the superhuman onto the calls and the reps are just used to skirting over the question versus going deep, right? So, and really answering. The thing humans do, I don't want to say poorly, like this isn't a shot against humans, but with the best of intentions, humans.

15:05Jesus we gotta defend ourselves here humans she's so optimistic about the human race right now I think the human that humanity is actually gonna get so much better we can talk about that in a minute and like the world is gonna be so much brighter on the other side of all this but okay so when you're on a call and you ask a hard technical question like a human even an SE they're gonna answer the question with like a few lines or go into a little bit of depth but they don't Repeat back what they heard. Say, I think you're asking this because of X, Y, and Z, and this is your problem. And then answer it and give three clicks down.

15:40Accompany it with a demo or a slide that talks exactly to what they asked. A human will just answer it and move on to what they're trying to accomplish. The buyer wants to feel heard, wants to be solution. We teach solution selling because they want to feel that you understand their industry, their pain, exactly what they're trying to solve for. And so we are just as sellers trying to get to the next outcome and get to the next step versus truly understand and truly sit there and really go deep. And so I'll give it a concrete example of this, which is I got on my red eye, which was 8 p.m. and landed at one in the morning to Austin, went to meet a prospect.

16:17It was a second meeting. The first meeting was 30 minutes. This was a second meeting. We had the meeting like a Friday and I was like, oh, your team is meeting in person. How about we show up? I knew the CMO, so I came with the AE. It was 30 people in the room or 20 people in the room. We're at the front of the table. The CPO and the CMO are there. The CPO moves over next to me and literally stood next to me the entire call. But on the screen, I brought our superhuman. I brought Nigel, who's a sales engineer, solutions engineer. And I kid you not, it was supposed to be an hour-long meeting. So the CMO and CPO, if you're listening, you know who you are.

16:50But it was an hour-long meeting that went two and a half hours. and guess how much talk time Nigel had? We were in person. Nigel was on the Zoom by himself and guess how much talk time Nigel, our superhuman, had in that meeting? 45 minutes. Yeah, less? I don't know. It was 33%, whatever that number is. 33 % of two and a half hours? 33 % talk time. That's more than an hour worth of talking from like, okay, this is really interesting because one of my questions... Because he could answer better than me. I was like, Nigel, take that. The CPO would ask these deep questions Can I push you on that a little bit?

17:24How much of that is novelty? How much of that is like, oh, wow, there's this cool thing. And like a year from now where it loses that novelty. It's like, hey, in an in-person meeting, I don't want the screen talking like I want the in-person interaction. Do you think that you're going to have a harder time displacing the upper mid-market and enterprise because so much of it is at dinners? You're not going to have a Zoom open on the dinner table, right? So your AI cannot follow this deal. No, that's me. Yes, Nigel. Order food with Nigel as well. Actually, serious. Have you had Nigel open at a dinner?

18:05Obviously not. We did Wi-Fi. I was wondering. You're making a great point. There's two points here. I want to break this down. That's why I still think there's a role for a human. There is the relationship side of it. There still is that for especially the big enterprise strategic deals, of course. And we're still going to have events and things like that. We're still going to go. People who want to work will be able to work. There will be a place for them. But to your earlier point, I would say absolutely fucking not. Like there is no way people are going to ask for a human. I believe my thesis is, and we've seen this, you know, when you call United Airlines, you pick up the phone and you're like, agent, agent, agent, because you want a human.

18:43It's going to be the complete opposite. You're going to say agent, agent, agent, because you want not to have a human. You want the AI. And the time that that is going to turn is when we trust AI more and they can go to that next level of depth. Like people say people buy from people. You buy when you trust. So you buy and you move forward when you trust something. And so when you can trust, and that's what happened in this room last week, I can give the cursory answer of how our live demo works. But I'm not the one fucking building it, you know, behind the scenes. And I know what my CTO was telling me and I can spew out what he's saying, but I'm not the one behind doing the thing.

19:19And even the solutions engineers on our team are not the one like going in and building the code. My CTO put the answers in to Nigel's brain as to how this works technically, how we were able to crack this and how we built that product mode. So when the CPO came over and was asking those hard questions, I could give that top line answer. Top line. There we go. That was a plug for you. That top line answer. But at the next level deep where we really want to understand how it works, the superhuman was exponentially better than me. And so not only was I deferring to the superhuman, but the CPO was like, Amanda, shut up, basically.

19:55I want to talk to Nigel. And he was having this whole dialogue with Nigel back and forth. And that's what built trust. And then as a result, we now have a, I'm just going to say it because I'm not saying who the customer is, a$278 ,000 deal from one in-person meeting going through procurement in one week. Like they're trying to get the deal done at our end of quarter, which is in two days. The meeting was last week. So a week and a half and we're moving forward with a massive deal because of that. Because and like I will 100 % tell you, it wasn't novelty. It was I want to really feel heard and I want to truly understand and I want to get to the bottom of actually how this works to see if I can apply this to my business.

20:35And he can use that instead of the agents he was building inside of his product. And so he was like, all right, I'm sold. Amanda, how important is the human form factor? Like how important is it that the buyer feels like they're talking to a human avatar? Not important at all. The face. Yeah. I am like, yeah. So I would say a year ago, Sam, I would have said, yeah, you need to have a face. But there is, and that's the novelty. The face is a novelty. The face is like, it drives engagement. So for some top of funnel activities, I tell our customers to use a face because you know what? It's going to get more clicks on the damn thing.

21:11Right? So there's still novelty. People are going to click on it. What it communicates is that you're going to have a richer conversation than a chatbot. So without communicating, without words, it says this is going to be more than what you had, like what you could expect from a deterministic or just even an AI basic chatbot, like everything else out there. But when you have high intent and you have people who are engaged and leaning in, on our calls, we don't bring a face. It's just a waveform that barely moves because the movement is like, it's jarring. It's distracting. it doesn't offer any value so at the end of the day we're not a face a lot of people think like we're part of like this whole face wave there are good places where it can drive more engagement so yes use it but it's not where the value comes in at all that's interesting so the value is the ability to listen like all of the not necessarily 11 labs but like all of the improvements that you're making from a from a speech and voice perspective where as you did on the demo when we were looking at the investment like you can interrupt it, you can speak poorly, rudely to it, you can sometimes be nice to it, but it's the voice interaction coupled with the full context that the superhuman has on the seller's business so it can answer any question.

22:27The value, yes, and. So it's more about the multi-agent orchestration. I believe there's only three companies that are doing that very well, Sierra, Decagon, and ourselves, of being able to take each superhuman has roughly 15 agents working behind the scenes. Like one is like doing the small talk. The other one is living the live demo. The other one is bringing up the slides. The other one's creating slides like in the background. They all say, you go, you go. Now you go. It's your turn to create this like one unified experience that gets delivered in the form of a superhuman. It's really easy to put a basic chatbot and a face on it and book some meetings.

23:02And that's what like a lot of our competition is doing. Anybody can do that. And that business is going to get run over by like build it yourself or do it, you know, through 11 Labs, anything else. When you want to have rich context and you really want to have a solution oriented conversation, you want to like, for example, Alteryx is a customer. They have 10 ,000 case studies in their superhuman's brain. No human can hold that much information. Like we are, I like to say, you know, salespeople like dump trucks. You put something in, you take something out. Actually, a CRO told me that of a public company, but I won't say which one.

23:34He says, once you put information in, you're going to take it out of its brain. And so we have capacity limits. Again, that best of intent, the capacity limits. If I could put all of that information in to a superhuman's brain, to solution, know who I'm talking to, what industry, what vertical, what their pain points are, where they are in the sales cycle, bring all that in to have like the highest quality conversation. That is what's hard is like this, the depth of information that we put into that brain to meet the buyer with this hyper-personalized one-to-one experience that you could never even get from a human in the sales process.

24:09And you can get the depth of a solutions engineer with the, you know, gravitas of an AE and the qualification of an SDR all on first touch. And so that bit is what's hard. It's not just like the questions or the face. The last time we chatted, I think you said, the last time you were a guest on the show, I think you said you're not going to go into like sequencing or cadence or email. Is that, but when I hear a gentic, they have to do it. The customers were asking them to do it. I mean, Sierra and Decagong are probably in that same boat too. I mean, they are doing that, right? Their use case is like any number of.

24:44Yeah, because I would think that based on what you told me, like what you were just saying, like it's really about putting the conversation anywhere. The customer wants to have that conversation. The customer wants to have it over email, we'll have it over email. They want to have it over text, we have it over text. Want to do it over the phone, we can do it over the phone. Is that how you're thinking about it? Yeah, and so sometimes we have to build things that we don't want to build, but we have to because the market wants us to. And so we had to, I'll just put it out there. I'm transparent, open, this is how I run my business.

25:13We had to get parity with Qualified, right? There are some things they were doing on like email and having calendar and booking. We have full parity with Qualified now. I didn't want to do it, but I didn't want to not check the box because they're like, we want to do the one-to-one personalized email. We now have that. So we now have that capability. Do I think that's going to be like the game-changing thing that's going to move the needle for our customers? No. But was I losing a few deals because I didn't have that? We support your full lifecycle. We're more than just top of funnel. You know, we're your solutions engineer.

25:45We're CSM. We're in PLG. We're in product everywhere else. but without that one like box i was missing a few deals and i don't want to lose those deals so we built something we built things but when we do send the email you better believe that it's going to take all the context of all the other conversations know everything about the opportunity not just know like i'm some information and basic you know context i can scrape about the account or what that you know what their last um you know earnings report said i don't care about any of that shit. I care about who I'm talking to and everything else and all the other and what their role is and where they are in the sales cycle, et cetera.

26:21That needs to come in when I'm sending the email. So we're hopefully doing it better, but I still, you know, not going to say that this is what's creating a moat for us. As you were talking, you know, a few things I was thinking about it. The face doesn't matter. You guys have got Nigel or Hannah was the other one, right? it? Mindy is on our website. Mindy and Nigel. And our customers have different names for their superhumans. They're there with like all these other humans, like almost as they're playing this support role. And so one thing I was thinking was that back in the day when we sold perpetual licenses, you had this like island model in sales where the salesperson was very 360, prospect, bring the customer, sign them on, manage the account, lead onboarding, do all of this.

27:09And then as we move to recurring revenue, we got this assembly line. And it seems like we're moving back to a position where there's this role for a human and all these other things are getting done for it. So the SE, you don't have high SEs, we'll have Nigel be the SE and we'll do somebody else the SDR. But then you've got this person who's like taking the client to dinner. Like, is that kind of how you see it? Which is like, all these support roles, like, I can just get rid of all of these, and I can do all of them for you. And then you get the humans to do the human part. Or are you seeing that this is just like a wedge?

27:45And at some point, you don't need that human doing the human stuff. We'll have this superhuman with maximum content, maximum capability doing everything. Like where, which of these two worlds are you building? Yeah, I mean, I think, yes, the human will still be the relationship, take the business, own the business, but they're going to own the life cycle of the business. right now we're not like look we're not at a place where i can take on all those roles like we're not we're not replacing the a we're not doing those things in the enterprise but the place that we're injecting ourselves more than anything else right now we're seeing massive value for our customers is where there is no business model to put a human where your buyers need a human experience so think of like you have a plg motion and then you have a commercial motion and enterprise like of course i'm not an enterprise i'm not going to be the a right now But there's something in between that commercial and even the commercial motion where the depth of that seller, they're not able to go to that next level, right?

28:43They can have the cursory conversation. Let me challenge you on that. Like, I think sometimes there are a few things that might be unnecessary that we think are super necessary. Example is, I don't know if the best way is to give the customer whatever they want, however they want it. That's like going to a Michelin-star restaurant and being like, I'd like a steak, eight ounce and this. And in a Michelin-star restaurant, it's like, oh, omakase. It's like, I know what I'm doing. Just relax and eat, right? Like there's that. I really like that style as well. And I think it works in go-to-market. Like I think go-to-market should be more omakase than, hey, free for all.

29:20Here's a buffet, however you want the information, et cetera. Actually, I disagree. I actually agree with Amanda where she's headed with this because in omakase, like you might have dietary restrictions and that's fine. I don't know what omakase is. I'm vegetarian. We're teaching you. You taught us ghost notes and now we have to teach you omakase. It's like a tasting menu at a sushi restaurant where it literally means chef's choice. So you just sit down at the freshest fish or whatever you have. And that's all about the experience. But Austin, let me push this back. Like imagine a restaurant that had all the freshest fish you wanted and it personalizes it directly to you in that exact moment in time.

29:58What Amanda is really talking to is like solutions, solutions engineers, where there's very technical depth, where someone as a seller is not going to, no way would they 100 % know all the different tech stacks. They'd have to understand formulas and fields inside CRM. Like we have this actual issue. And as a CEO, I look at that capacity as a little bit of a cost center versus a revenue driver to the business. It's knowledge. It's enablement. And I want my sellers out there selling and having conversations. So AE doesn't have to know all of those things. The AE's job is not to have maximum contact.

30:35So the better AE is not one that knows more. In a conversation where they need to recall off the top of their head, they have to have that. So a man is not suggesting you replace that front-facing conversation. It's like, I need to recall this. just like back 10 years ago i forget what it was called it was like talk desk maybe or something talk iq where it was like oh objections pop up on the screen where you like it comes up and it was like delayed rather than objection handling you're actually using this as a use case of like here is like let's go really deep on this exact problem and i think amanda what i heard you say is like the cpo was like i want to hear really deep on this use case from nigel i don't amanda you probably don't know actually the answers to these questions correct and i did not know the answers to his questions like he was he was everybody's trying to be smart too right the cpo and the cmo in the room and it's their whole team so everyone's trying you know there's like oh i want to show how much i know about ai what is the latency of blah blah blah it feels like this podcast actually but i'm admitting what i'll see if this podcast bunch of dudes talking over a woman yep oh thanks damn that's right first off the voice of diversity on top line is sandy background i i feel like amanda's talk time is is up there a little bit so we're okay i don't So good.

32:07This episode of Top Line is brought to you by Tarrant or Tourette, but I would say Tarrant. Every CEO is asking the same critical questions. Why are win rates dropping? What are my closers doing differently? How do we beat competitor X? Despite massive AI investment sales teams still can't get complete answers or take action on partial insights. Tourette changes that. Tourette is the only answer to action engine that gets to the root of revenue issues then executes with relentless precision. It answers your questions with a complete revenue graph, operationalizes those answers for your teams through AI architects, and deploys them to reps through AI agents.

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33:27And I just always think about this problem that exists of like, If I just truly knew what was happening in the buying cycle, I would just be at peace of mind. And companies like Terrett are doing exactly that. It's Tourette, by the way. I just looked this up for the record. We'll start there. I'm going to say you are a good partner for Tourette because that was great. Exactly. If you're losing a no decision, you need to know what. This is an answer to action engine. T-E-R-R-E-T dot A-I. Give it a shot, everybody. Okay, so here's something a little different, but definitely cool. It's called Computer by DevRev.

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34:52One thing I keep hearing from go-to-market leaders is this. I have a huge network, but I still feel like I'm doing this job alone. That's why we built Pavilion Scale. At the heart of scale are small councils, carefully matched groups of 8 to 10 operators who meet every month to solve real business problems together. It's a confidential room where you can stop performing, be honest about what's keeping you up at night, and learn alongside peers who truly understand the job. We're opening just 100 founding seats. About 35 of them are already claimed. One of them by the chief revenue officer of Quotapath.

35:28If that sounds like the kind of room you've been looking for, learn more and apply at Pavilion. AJ, you supported Ryan Milligan to join Pavilion Scale. Why? Sam, as I think about my career in the last, especially at the last like five years, the times where I feel like my learning and growth has been at the highest has been inside one of Pavilion's events. And so it's a no-brainer. If I can offer that to any of my thought partners and leadership team inside the organization, it was a no-brainer to do that. I think Ryan's just the start. If you're taking others outside of CROs, then I will offer them.

36:07Just not me. I can't be in that room. Well, you're in a small council with me. I know. It's the best. But seriously, the off-sites that I've had inside the small council and think back to our time in Sag Harbor and other places where I just get to be in a room with amazing individuals, Pavilion Gold. This is the gateway to that and it makes a ton of sense. And so, Ryan, you're in luck. You're welcome. You're a great man. You're Anthony, John, Bruno. So close. So close, Sam. Anthony, James, Bruno III. What's the J? James. It's the same thing. It's John, James, same thing. Have you ever called Jimmy?

36:52Anyway, everybody, the Villion Scale. Go to joinpavilion.com forward slash scale to learn more. We're accepting just 100 founding members leading up to our big announcement at GTM in New York City in 65 days. And no, I've never been called Jimmy. And don't call me Tony. Thank you. Goodbye. Interesting. One of the things you're talking about is how the recall is going to be really good, right? Like this superhuman can have all of this information and then can be able to accurately recall it compared to human recall, which seems to be more flawed, right? Can I add something to that? Yeah, please, please.

37:33It's not just recall. It's recall and then using that information to drive to an outcome, to drive to a goal. So you said you cared about X, Y, and Z and you had these pain points in your business. And the superhuman can frame that and say, oh, I think you're asking me this and you're saying this because of A, B, and C. So here's how I'm going to give you a solution as a result of everything that you said. Our best sellers are the ones who can do that like that. How many things have to happen in the background for it to be able to do that? Because that's not a one-step task, right, in the background.

38:06That's like a lot of things. running behind the sea. Yeah. There's like, there's the thinking agents that are running at the same time. You've got your small language models that are making small talk and, you know, and like, okay, I got to pull something up. And then I'm, and then you have another agent that's going to build a perspective slide at the end of the call and say, okay, everything we just learned here, here's our perspective on how we're going to help. Usually our sellers go away and build that themselves. And it takes them another week to get that out. And then all like time is lost.

38:32Time kills all deals right there in the moment. Just built the perspective, understands your business, understands your pain, built the ROI calculator in the moment for the human. So giving the human all the tools so that the human can then take that and drive the deal forward. Amanda, that sounds like a little bit of a step function change. The last time we talked, we talked about models. Now you're having all this compute running in the background. How are you thinking about like cost and margins to one mind? Like that's a massive problem in itself, right? Yeah, we're thinking about some open source stuff.

39:06But I would, if I'm being honest, my margins are not bad because of the compute costs as much as it is right now. That's just like humans to support building superhumans. And so we're having our superhumans build the superhumans and all the self-serve and the automation. It's more about like the forward deployed solutions architects that have to jump in with customers to build a human with like, I'm going to say replacement or augmentation across their org, right? So like the cost for that demo with Nigel and you flying to Austin was probably like it has to close basically feeling. Otherwise, this is like a pretty heavy lift for the business and expense.

39:44So you have a totally I never fly to customers. Let me get to speak clear. Like I don't go to prospects very often. I knew the CMO very well. We go back like 20 years and there's just times when and you know what? We were on a call on the Friday before and I was like, oh, you're going to be in Austin. We'll come. and I offered it up without thinking. So that's sometimes my big mouth gets me in trouble. But I'm also an integrity person. If I say I'm going to do it, I'm going to fucking do it unless I absolutely can't. Well, it depends on the retention profile. You know, the margin is definitely one thing, but to AJ's point, perhaps, the problem is that we don't know how long, like we don't know what LTV is in an AI world because the technology is changing so quickly.

40:23Do you have a point of view on that, on sort of like how embedded you really are with your customers? Obviously, you want to believe that it's incredibly sticky, but, and certainly through Alteryx, you know, we both know Steve Burtzall and he's your biggest fan. But do you have a visibility into like the same kind of embedding that, you know, a NetSuite or some kind of ERP might have with an enterprise over 10 years or something like that? Yeah, I mean, it depends who we're in with and like what the use case is, right? So we have some people that are buying us just to be the chatbot on the website.

40:56And then we need to work our way to get to the CMO or the CRO to say there's so much more you could do, like what Steven's doing. But, you know, use cases like ZoomInfo and LinkedIn and HubSpot, we have, you know, four superhumans at all of those organizations. In fact, I think I'll design another superhuman right now. So they're using it. We are higher up in the org and they're thinking about other places that they can use this. One of the things that I think a lot about right now is the accuracy of AI. I think when you look at the best models against semi-complex tasks, you have 5-6 % inaccuracy.

41:33When you have multi-agent processes, that inaccuracy compounds. One of the ways that people think of AI is that if I take a task with 10 steps and break it into 10 small tasks and put an agent on each task, then I only get 5 % overall inaccuracy. it's actually no it's five into ten like you know it compounds five to the power of ten and so like you land up in a pretty inaccurate place you land up in a place where you might have 30 40 50 percent inaccuracy on something so when you've got all these agents in the background doing all of this stuff they're doing the research they're developing the contest they're putting the slide together how much of an accuracy like how much is accuracy coming into play now listen you're comparing it to humans as well it's not like they're the most accurate people on earth but how is accuracy affecting what you guys do is it coming into play are you more accurate than you know what we would imagine right now um based on what i just said how is that yeah well i'll start with your comparison so the bar is low right so you know i i can't this is why this works so well and go to market yeah because i just have to be as accurate as a human the bar is just low basically this is low like human driving cards yeah like i can't be it's this isn't biotech i'm not like i'm not doing medical research here it's not financial services where i'm going to give away your money if i get it wrong you know where you can't have a five percent error rate if i have a five percent error rate i'm fucking crushing it right now what if you have a 20 percent error like yeah we don't we have scorecards and evals that are constantly running and we see it and we're at like 98 % across our customers.

43:09Like our worst customer is 97.5%. And so we have, we've spent the last like 12 months, like building all these rich evals and scorecards so we can show our customers and show in the places that we're not, it's not that we're not accurate. It's where there's conflicting information. They've given us two sources, an enablement doc over here and your website says this and it conflicts. And then, you know, our answer, we usually typically we default to whatever is the most recent or our customer can say always use the decks that you got from this source if you have conflicting information so they can set up rules for how they want to deal with that conflicting information but that's where our accuracy is off we we've crushed that on the sense of like because we can't if she's out there spewing that you do something else or she goes like for g2 where if you go to their pricing page you'll see our superhuman where if you're like trying to figure out your pricing your plans and your packaging and it can actually like do some negotiation, she can't negotiate wrong, right?

44:05Like she has to be fully accurate. Amanda, you said last time that like latency was the thing that like people cared the most about is just that conversation feedback loop. Has that changed in the last six months? I'm assuming it's gotten better, but are we at a point where AI is actually and superhumans more aptly is able to interrupt people and have that like more conversational back and forth? Yeah. I mean, if I brought it onto this call right now, it could absolutely be interrupted, interrupt. You can tell it to interrupt as well. Like you got on the control panel, say just interrupt AJ and show the slide or do the thing, right?

44:41So we can tell it and it can do that. So it can definitely talk over you, but you don't usually want a superhuman to talk over a human. You want to let the human still have that. Then it feels like you're out of control and And that's the worst thing for buyers. That's not a good buying experience. But yes, like when we're building these multi-agent orchestration, like we're always measuring for building towards accuracy, latency and well, latency, the speed and cost. So the other piece of like how expensive is this? And keeping the more the superhuman can do, the more context that's going into the brain, the slower it's going to be, especially like, for example, this live demo that we just released.

45:19We haven't, we're going live with a few first customers, but we haven't actually made an announcement about it. So it's here now that people know. Basically lives inside of your product and can click around, can do things for you. But a fucking shit ton of context. Like it is that keeping that latency down is really, really hard. Now, there's a lot of things you can do to fake it. Like, hey, let me pull that up for you. That just bought me. It's like a loading screen. Yeah. Or it says like, great question, Sam. as it's thinking its way to do what the fuck it's going to do. So you can like do filler words just like humans.

45:57Like you guys asked me a question. I'm like, how am I going to answer that? And so I just start making up shit. You like pulled your camera earlier in this podcast so you could get out of the conversation about sales teams. I was talking to a chat GPT yesterday in voice mode and it was doing something very similar. Like the intonation was extremely human. Interesting. So there's a lot of tricks that we work on to make it the feel. like instant, even though it's actually not instant because it's taking on a really tough thinking challenge so that it gets it right. And those are the fun problems.

46:28Like I love solving those problems and seeing like right now our in-product superhuman is wild. Like it is so cool. Like you can just talk your way through to build. Think about this. You can build a superhuman with your voice. I can literally talk to the thing and say, I want a superhuman to be in our customer success and here like the documents are there. Okay. Yes. Go ahead. Accept connecting to Google to grab the information and the deck. Now I wanted to join the podcast and I wanted to have all this information. I'll go research Sam. And when you join, do these things, show this content, boom, and it's going to go start doing it and like have, and then say, I'm going to do this.

47:04I'm going to do this. Good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you can just talk your way through building a superhuman. It's really freaking cool. That's very cool. How do you think about marketing and positioning. I think about AI companies and you've got this really interesting dynamic where you've got some dystopian marketing like Anthropite. They released this really odd, strange video recently, which made very little sense. And it's like their marketing is the weirdest, which is like, this thing's going to destroy everything unless we do it. I just find it very off-putting. That's why I find like, Sam, you find Sam Altman off-putting.

47:39I find And Dario, 10 times more off-putting. I'd much rather have dinner with Sam Altman than Dario for that reason. I think I agree with that. I think I'd rather have dinner with Sam Altman. So you can either be, as an AI company, passive. Hey, we are here to enable the human to bring the best out of them. The future will be great. Or you can say, hey, we're doing this thing to displace labor budget. Like our upside is the labor budget that we're going to eat into, which means you need less humans to do that job, right? Like there's a spectrum. How do you choose as a CEO or founder of an AI company where on this spectrum to fall and how do you iterate on it?

48:23Like how often are you like adjusting the message? How hard is it to be aggressive versus passive? Like talk to us a little bit about how you think about positioning. I mean, it's the hardest thing. Like every day I change my mind on how we need to position ourselves and what we're saying if I'm being completely transparent. I do think there is a world where the jobs as we know them aren't there. And I think we'd be doing the world a disservice by not saying that because the worst thing to do for sellers, and I don't think they're coming for like the core AE job anytime soon. But the worst thing we can do is pretend that the world is the same.

48:59And, you know, I think that line of like people who use AI are going to eat up the people who don't. I think that's total bullshit. Like there's so many people who use AI and it's such crap and it's such there's so much sloth that comes out. And I really think it needs to be a top down approach, not a bottoms up. So that's a bottoms up approach of like everyone go use AI and make your jobs more efficient and effective. And like we get no gains out of it and nobody's realizing any value. Sure, they need to know how to use it from like, you know, one on one standpoint. But the real impact is going to come at the top down when we think about restructuring the org and what we're going to do and how we're going to go to market that's different.

49:36But to answer your question, depends on what day and what side of the bed I wake up on. It's a really hard question. And I do, you know, we are taking some jobs. Because there's no easy choice. Like if you took the passive route, I'd be like, that's so boring, Amanda. Like you're like, oh, it's not really what you're doing, right? Right. Like if this company works, then companies will need to hire less go to market people. So like or they hire more and they do more. They can meet more people where they are and their businesses can go faster and they can realize the potential of their market in a much shorter period of time.

50:10But you keep the number of people, you just do a lot more. But the person, the number of people per million dollars of revenue would be less. Right. You just might get a lot more millions a lot faster. And so like, I really love how like straight you are about that. And I find that there are other companies, even in your category that have like a very different position to it. And I find that like kind of awkward. And so I really like when you're on the front foot, but I imagine it's really hard. Like it's really hard. And there's probably a different message that AI companies have at the board level where they're like, we don't want to eat this labor budget.

50:42And in the world, they're like, we're bringing the best out of humans. I think it's just this really interesting challenge for these companies. I will say, Amanda, I'm just listening to you around this. Your point of view and perspective is stronger than when we last spoke with you in the sense that last time, I think, and we didn't get into the debate on sales teams, will sales teams actually exist in a year or not? But you said it outright. You backed off a little bit on it in this one. But I think what you're saying in the details actually has formed, like there's a stronger opinion around how this is actually going to go to market, mostly because you have more data in the last six months and you're actually seeing this happen firsthand, where six months ago that was still like you were growing super fast, but you were still like figuring this out a little bit on the technology side, it sounded like.

51:29Yeah, we're figuring out like where like you can build these, you know, superhumans across the lifecycle. Where does it make the most sense and where are we getting the most value? And it's really it truly is like even when we build a digital CSM, we're still going to have a ton of CSMs. I just want them to be more of the solutions, the thinker, not the doer, not the task person, right? I don't want them to be handling, building, writing support tickets. I don't want them to be putting content into the superhuman's brain anymore. I don't want them to be updating things. I want them to be thinking about what else can they do in their org to drive value.

51:58And so their jobs are going nowhere, but the customers are seeing more value because they can actually get all their questions answered with a superhuman and then do the strategic things with our humans. And so I think we're building more Skalbuthman architects. Should humans be buying stuff? 100%. If humans shouldn't be selling stuff, should humans be buying stuff? No, humans should be selling stuff and humans should be buying stuff. It depends what the stuff is. If the stuff is transactional and it's like, if it's a repeat sale over and over again, then fucking, yeah, build an agent to buy. But if it's a one-time thing that you're, then, you know.

52:37So do you think about some part of your roadmap being how do I sell to agents or is that just AEO? Is that just research that surfaced through the LLMs? Oh, absolutely. No, we're already thinking about agent to agent because we're not just giving information. We're actually like solutioning. So we're building like thinking what a solutions engineer does behind the scenes that we could do that with an RFP that comes. Right. So instantly we can answer all the questions. We can say why the pros and cons we can negotiate. Like I want our superhumans to be saying, OK, if you give me a three year deal, you're going to have a 10 percent discount.

53:08Right. So they should take it. I think that's so interesting because we assume that on the buy side that the agents will be so deterministic. They're like, well, this is the answer. It can do this and not this. But if any of us have negotiated or persuaded or reasoned with the LLM in any kind of chat interaction, which we all have, we know that you can actually push the LLMs around to a different position than the one that they started with. So actually, for me, that variability creates the economic opportunity. It's like very, if it's all just like, well, this is the best solution, go buy it now.

53:43That's pretty depressing. But if it's like, no, no, no, you know, you're in the top three. Now set your agent to negotiate. Tell Mindy to go call Nigel and tell and convince Nigel why she should buy from Mindy. I think I have predictions. I think in the next three years, there's 0 % chance that any meaningful revenue will be purchased by AI. I also think that in the next five years, you'll find a lot of companies with zero CSMs in there. I think AI will probably displace all CSM jobs. You'll have account managers, but I think the CSM as we know it today will be like a relic of the past. Like I think five years from now, the most progressive companies will not have human CSMs.

54:23They might have account managers they're calling CSMs, but they will not have these versions of CSMs. Can I take it one step further than that though? So I think that the job of a CSM and supporting like in a lot of what's happening with like SaaS companies, like the SaaS apocalypse, whatever, like all that bullshit. But what's happening there, like all of those systems were to support humans. Right. So going back to our earlier conversation, the CSM is there to support a system that's there to support a human. We're going to have new systems. So the CSM's job is going to fundamentally change because these systems that are there to support like this human centered process is going to shift.

55:01And so like the way that SAS is not going like software isn't going to be built to help like, you know, and it's not going to help build like having a human in the loop. It's actually going to be built to outcomes. And so that job is going to shift. I don't know if I'm making any sense. No, I think completely. Like, I think if you look at the Snowflake model where you have an AE who is like hunting and farming into the account because it's consumption high in RR. So it's a very land and expand. So A, it collapses account management and hunting into one, which is how it used to be. I think that's where we all roll with AI.

55:35And I think the job of a CSM is like, in theory, a really good job. We had humans doing it because we didn't have good enough technology. but eventually it's the technology that does makes a customer successful at using the product is a very like customized one-to-one touch type of thing that you can get AI to do relatively easily, especially compared to the average CSM, which is just horrible. Like the average CSM is like really, really bad. Like we talk about like AEs, et cetera, like the bar is really low in CSM world. Well, in their fairness, it is the hardest job in a company. I don't think so.

56:07Not at all. No, it's a horrible job. And I love my CSM, so I can never say anything. We have incredible, all of you who are listening, fucking love you. You're amazing. You should all ask me for a raise. There's nothing harder than hunting for business in any world. Yes, there is. It is hearing how much the products suck all day, every day. That's like, no. There's a product you're selling because it's easy to hunt if you've got a product that sells itself. Yeah, but that's like 5 % of the ecosystem that has high product market fit. The job of the average hunter, the average hunter who doesn't work at 5 % of the companies, is much harder than the job of anyone else in the world mall.

56:43I will, I'm going to agree with Amanda and Sam. It comes to my mind because it's easy to hunt at our company. Our CSMs are on calls from like 7 a.m. till 5 p.m. every day. They have the hardest jobs in the world. Hardest job. Impossible. Just because you work hard and long doesn't mean it's the hardest job. We have to decide what, we have to define what hard means because emotionally deflating so that you leave the day totally exhausted, not wanting to go to work the next day. How vulnerable is your position? How easily do you get fired? You get fired far more easily as a hunter than as a CSM.

57:21A CSM at a company with low product market fit can survive much longer than the hunter in that company. The hunter will miss targets. They'll be like, bad hunter, you go, and we'll hire another hunter. whereas the CSM will stick around for two years in that company. You can see the tenure of CSMs at bad companies is higher than the hunters. Always. Hence. I will die on this though. I will defend my hunters till the cows comes in. Oh yeah. Last segment. Sometimes I know when to stop debating. The funny thing is, well, Austin is a recruiting agency for sales and new business in A.E. Go to market like completely.

57:57I do a lot of CSMs. I just clean and clay about my opinions. Okay. Bulls versus bears. Bulls versus bears. Amanda, you weren't here when we were doing this. I'm going to ask you guys a question and you're going to tell us whether you're bullish or bearish about this particular thing. We'll start with one of the others so you can see what this is all about. And then we'll ask you a question. AJ, we're going to start with you. Are you bullish or bearish about the future of the sales dinner? Taking a customer to dinner and, you know, all the demand person. Are you bullish or bearish? Super bullish.

58:32bullish. Very, very, very, very bullish. How many dinners do you do in a year? Well, I'll tell you this. I have in the next two months, I'm doing four dinners. So AJ, I'm going to send you something that's going to make your dinners transport. Yes, please do. Okay. So I'll give you guys a quick little story. So I'll try to keep this as short as possible. You can go as long as you want. Okay. When my mom was passing, so my mom was in the CIA. She had an amazing life and then gave it all up to go to be a mom of three kids uh stay-at-home mom well she was working but anyway on the night i got the news that she was passing we were playing a game that she used to play when we were little which was she would bring people around the table she never met any neighbors my mom was the biggest introvert you'd ever meet like never went out but like once a year at christmas time she would bring all the neighbors around we had no fucking clue who they were they show up in our house and we play this game so i started playing with my friends and And basically you pull questions out of it.

59:27It can be anything from a question about AI and like the industry to stand on your table. Like yesterday I was at, I hosted a lunch and I stood on my chair and I sung jingle bells to like do charades to a vulnerable question. So it's a mix of all kinds of shit. It's really fun. So when I got that note that she was passing, I basically decided to create this game around her called Bobby's Game. And so I have a little box of Bobby's Game cards I'm going to send you, AJ. Yes. And it will make every dinner event that you host so incredibly memorable because it's not just the same question you're going around.

59:59Everybody gets something different. It's everything from vulnerable to fun to like talking about AI, debating like good topics. It's really meaty. Anyway, it's one of my favorite things to do. But it's a nice little ode to my mom. Awesome. I will 100 % send you my address after this. Awesome. I've sent it to Austin, but he has no idea where it is. I don't believe it. I'm not sending anything here to a cartoon city. Sam, question for you. One thing I've noticed is that over the last five years, specifically in the last two or three years, the average road market person has become healthier. I don't know if you've noticed this, but like 10, 15 years ago, it was an unhealthy bunch of people, right?

1:00:42A lot of drinking, just like, they didn't look that fit, didn't look, it's become much healthier. Do you think this trend continues? Are you bullish or bearish that this trend continues? I'm major, well, the trend of wellness in growth market. I just think the trend of wellness and humanity is I'm a major bull. I think we're gamifying everything and we're also seeking status in everything. You know, we've all texted, the three of us have all texted each other our resting heart rate. Now it's HRV heart rate variability. it's you know your biomarkers in your blood it's what your sleep score is and how many hours of sleep you get i think everybody i think that we're optimizing without a without a known destination we don't quite know why we're doing it to the point of what i was writing about a couple weeks ago like brian johnson living to a 200 but looking like a freaking weirdo the whole time and unclear if he's having fun doing it.

1:01:43But I'm very bullish on people trying to optimize their existence, particularly right now, because everybody that's alive right now is sort of at this turning point where, you know, it's, what do they call it? It's like health life, whatever. Like, it's not your lifespan, it's your health span. So it doesn't do any good to make it to 90 if you've got Alzheimer's or you can't walk or you're in a wheelchair. So everybody is very focused, at least in my generation, of which, you know, I'm roughly the same age as everybody on this call, of making it to our... What are you saying, Sam? I'm saying I'm older.

1:02:17Yuck. That's what I'm saying. Roughly. I don't hide it as well. I'm a stone throw away. I am personally very focused on making it to like 65, 70 in really, really good shape so that I can take advantage of whatever science has to offer over the next 25 years. And I definitely don't want to get there and, you know, be too late to make a difference. So very bullish. Are you taking peptides? Not yet, because I want my, the rule in my house is I can't take much that's not FDA approved until I've given all of my seed for our last children. Once we have all the kids we want to have, then I can do whatever I want to my body.

1:02:53Then I can find Johnson this shit. I feel that's a very fair rule. I think that's a very fair rule. Yeah. Like even like things like TRT, you can't take testosterone replacement until you're done having kids. Yeah. We don't know. This stuff hasn't been tested. The jokes they make on GLP ones are hilarious. They're like, what's the long-term effects? Like, long-term, what are you talking about? We're not talking long-term, man. We're talking about losing weight now, brother. Want to get laid? This is how you get laid. Okay, Amanda, questions for you. I find your company the most interesting in growth market because it's truly like a step change.

1:03:32Like, it's not just like, I said this to you last time, like, Monotro is like Outreach 2.0, right? cool, whatever. Like yours is like something different. Like it's really cool. And it's like, I don't agree with everything that you think, but like, I really love the position you've taken and what you're trying to build. I imagine you think about the old world versus the new world versus the future a lot. And so I'm sure you have a point of view on companies like Salesforce and HubSpot. So let me ask, are you bullish or bearish about Salesforce as a category leader in go-to-market a few years from now?

1:04:09Ah. You know, so... I can't answer that question. You can switch it with HubSpot if you want. I mean, they just bought my competitor, right, for$1.5 billion, which was, you know, not nearly, you know, there's just booking meetings. It's not nearly, like, the depth and the capacity that our superhumans take on. And they, you know, could potentially be a strategic interest in us one day, I can't go sharing. How about the basket of companies? How about the hubs? Actually, I guess they're all your customers. They're customers and they're all customers and they're all... What do you think about SaaS era category leaders in all industries into the future?

1:04:54How do you think about that? Because you also built one, right? You built one that was leading marketing tech for a long time. How do you think about that world? When you're hanging out with your old friends and people in that space, like, do you see a world where these companies still are very meaningful players five, 10 years from now? Or do you think like as running an AI company, the game's so different, it's a new company's game? I mean, I think they need to turn the ship like Intercom did, right? So they need to learn, like, be able to do that. I actually am kind of bullish on what Sixth Sense is doing right now of like turning into like the clay category of opening up all their data.

1:05:29I do believe they have the best data on the market. And it's been this black box platform. And so I'm excited about where they're going with their new leadership. I'm stoked about the new leadership team that they have there. I mean, are you on the board of Sixth Sense still? I can't, I don't know. You're out, you're completely out from that angle. Yeah, okay, got it. I've been out for quite some time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have, I mean, I have a - Mine does all have time to be on boards. I did just quit two boards because I just, I can't. This is it. I can barely take care of my kids and work every day.

1:06:05there's no time for social life and there's no time for boards or anything else. It's my children and it's my work. And then I go to bed. And sometimes I date just like that much. Have you changed how you think about board composition or board cadence or anything of that sort over the last few years? Like, you know, I feel like early on it's reactive, like whatever the board members want to do. And I find that second time, third time founders are very proactive in how they want this relationship to work. Any insight there? A hundred percent. So I had incredible board members at Sixth Sense, truly.

1:06:39They were great humans, helpful, but I managed them from like an arm's length distance. You know, I did the, okay, we're about to have a board meeting a week before. I'm going to give you a call. Here are the big ahas, like gotchas. What are you going to say about it? Let's get it all out on the table before we get into the room because I don't want it to happen in the boardroom. So I, you know, I kept my distance and like gave them the information they needed to have. Whereas now, actually, I will say Cassie Young taught me how to have a relationship with a board member. And she literally taught like, and it was really opening the door to trust of, you know, she was here for the good, the bad, the ugly.

1:07:15She's a thought partner. She's my bat phone. I am a morning person. I get up at four or five almost every morning. And I, you know, she's on the East Coast. And sometimes she's like, you're calling me before I'm even out of bed. You know, so like, but she's my like, okay, this is happening. I'm thinking about this particular role or this decision. And like, do we take this deal or not? It's like, I even get her down to the minutia of some, you know, like, oh, or like somebody is trying to sue us for something. And I'm like, what do I do about it? You know, what do you think? Just to have, which I never would have done in my past life.

1:07:45Like I would have had the solution, gone to the lawyers, figured everything out before I would take it to the board. Like make sure I'm like, of course I'm going to share everything with them, but I'm going to make sure it's all buttoned up. Whereas now I'm like, all right I'm going to give it to you when it's ugly and you're going to help me button it up you're going to help me you're going to be my trusted advisor in this and so you know but I also come from a different perspective where at Sixth Sense Sixth Sense was my life like I couldn't imagine a world where I wasn't the CEO of Sixth Sense and I didn't have kids I didn't have a social life then either and you know I woke up in the morning I worked out a ton and then I was just working like all I was doing was working Sixth Sense was my family we even called our values of Sixth Sense is a family, like fun, accountability, integrity, love, and yes.

1:08:27And like those words aim from the word family because Sixth Sense was my family. Yeah. That is creepy. And now I don't think One Mind is my family. I am. A one of every CEO school is it's the team, not a family. Yeah. Yeah. Like, and I have learned some hard lessons that like, and also, I actually also believe second time founders too, if you've had some sort of like exit or whatever it is, like a lot of people like oh you're not as hungry or motivated and i'm like i just have like the peace to not have this thing is like worry about putting food on my kids table we have kids exactly yeah living the same life in that way second time founder it's like people when they have when people make money for the first time they live frugally because they're like i don't want my kids to have all of this luxury because then they won't have the drive i had and it's like you know that must zuckerberg and bezos and gates were all kids of extremely rich parents Like they lived in extreme luxury.

1:09:22It did not take any of their drive away. Like drive is not gone just because you had a nice bed. Like it's just a massive fallacy. I can spend my nights obsessing over one mind success versus obsessing over like, how am I going to put my kids to college? How am I going to pull another dollar down to do that? I don't have to think about that. Right. So that gives me more energy to put into one mind. And because I've compartmentalized it, that this is a job. It's not my life. It's not my family. that it also allows me to operate at another level for the team and for the board and for investors where I can say, I'm going to make decisions like what's best for this company.

1:09:59It could be with or without me. I actually made the choice. It was my choice to step down at Sixth Sense. And if I ever have to do it here, my promise to my investors is if I'm ever not the fit or if I hit a cap or a ceiling, you will not be the one to come to me. I will come to you before that happens. Like that is always like, I, I hope I have the foresight to see that and can always like put my ego aside, but I didn't have that at six, you know, it's, you know, I did it the last mile, like when I walked away, but, um, it was everything. And then I, I broke as a human, the day I left six cents, I haven't shared this really publicly.

1:10:32It's saved from my book, but I'm not going to get into the details of it. But when I, my email shut off at six cents and the new like when i was like done yeah and i didn't have a life because i hadn't supported our social network i had some friends you know i have friends like my friends were like what we're fucking friends like but you know i wasn't like okay i didn't have i had like you know ended a relationship i had part way through so i was alone it was the darkest time of my life and i will never allow that to happen to myself again and i i still hit send receive on my phone like i literally would be like send me Steven like on my Gmail nothing was coming like there's nothing there what do you mean it gets really silent like I was talking to somebody else and they're like it goes from like very loud and busy to like really quiet and like I have to learn to love myself yeah and like you know and I did a lot of I went on a lot of spiritual journeys I did a lot of things to like work on my inner and have like a lot of inner work um also played a lot of golf a skill to have here.

1:11:38This has been great. This has been quite a waste time. Amanda, thank you so much for joining us again. And we didn't talk about it, but Pavilion Gold and in partnership with Fog Ventures just invested in OneMind. Are we allowed to say that or do we need to delete it? You're allowed to say it. Let's go. There's a lot of things that are going to be edited out of this episode that will not be one of them, apparently. So we're excited to support you. I have one question before we go because we need more feedback. Can you imagine I hear about this deal while it was happening? You had a new one for doing gold.

1:12:11Amanda, who are some other great, you know, you've been at these on the business conferences over the last couple of weeks. Just two or three people we should have on the show that are women, that are in your league, that you rate highly. Besides Cassie, of course, who we love and have had on the show multiple times. Cassie's a homie. I mean I think of people like I mean I think of like Denise or uh Dara from Autodesk I think of like the really heavy hitter um or the CR like some good women CROs unfortunately there aren't a lot of CEOs that I would say like and it's sad like that's why I can't give up because I have to fucking ring the bell for women we're less than one percent we're extinct in the animal kingdom Like it's freaking ridiculous.

1:12:56So I have to keep going for women and girls like to show that we can do it too. Like that is what gets me up in the morning. Also gets me up is like to save factory farming because of all the animal abuse across the planet is terrible. And so like I want to make money so that I can save pigs and cows and chickens across the planet. I love pigs. I think they're so cute. I love pigs too. They're so cute. We're shopping now. We love you guys. I'm underappreciated. Thank you for believing me, Sam, and investing. Absolutely. Sincerely, thank you so much for that belief in myself and the company. It's only the beginning.

1:13:31I'm part of your ghost notes now. Let's go. Thanks.

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1:14:20Thank you.