The Business of Sold Out Tours and Festivals

0:04Kevin Shivers: I'm Dan Runcie. Welcome to Trapital. We're continuing our Trapital Summit series, and you're about to hear a conversation on the art and science behind sold out shows. We're joined by Kevin Shivers, who is the co-president of music at The Team, and Taylor Mims, who is the senior editor at Billboard. They covered a number of topics in this conversation. We talked about the current state of the live music business and how some of the shift in power dynamics between the superstar artists doing their stadium tours, how that's impacted the festival business. We also talked about what it takes right now to build an agency and how Kevin himself sees himself in that role, given that he was recently promoted to be co-president of the team, working alongside Lee Anderson in the agency side, specifically for music touring.

0:53Kevin Shivers: but also that distinction between being an agent that is truly working on behalf of the artist versus building an agency and working to develop the next generation and truly running this department in this broader company given all of the changes and dynamics that have happened this past year with the team. Really insightful conversation and I hope you enjoy it as much as everyone in the room did that day. Here's Kevin and Taylor. This episode of Trapital is presented by Chartmetric, which recently launched its new AI agent, Flow. One thing I run into all the time with data, especially in entertainment, is that I know the question I want to answer, but getting there can take some time.

1:35Kevin Shivers: Maybe I want to know which markets are overperforming for a particular artist, what's more causal versus correlated, and more. And that's what Chartmetric is now solving with Flow. You could ask those nuanced, multi-layered questions directly in plain English, and Flow works through chart metric music data to give you the analysis instead of making you hunt through a bunch of different dashboards. Sung Cho showed me Flow, and we discussed it on stage at the Trapital Summit. And the most interesting part is how much easier it makes you going from asking the question to an actual decision that can improve your business.

2:11Kevin Shivers: If you work in music, try it out. Check out the link in our bio.

2:22Kevin Shivers: welcome what an honor it is to be out here with you kevin the new co-president of music for the

2:27Taylor Mims: team which just happened in april thank you for having me taylor we've talked many times in the

2:33Kevin Shivers: past but first time in person it's been several years many many years of talking to you um i know your goal for the team is to be the number one agency.

2:43Taylor Mims: 100%. What does that mean?

2:46Kevin Shivers: What does number one agency mean to you? I think that that means is signing and retaining the best artists

2:52Taylor Mims: in the world. And how do we get there? I think we get there through teamwork and to unrealistic hospitality, right? And what does that mean to me? That means that, you know, when we're truly working in teamwork. We are working together for the best results every single day. We are supporting each other. We're showing up for each other from going to people's shows to helping people in signing meetings, helping people when they have problems. Unreasonable hospitality means that, you know, we're taking care of the artists. We're taking care of the managers. No, you know, when people call us, the answer is we'll figure it out.

3:28Taylor Mims: But all that combined together is how we get there. And it also means that unreasonable hospitality means that even the assistants and the young agents in the office, we're showing up for them. We're taking care of them. We're making the environment the best culture out there because we want the culture to be a place where we attract the best agents, the best executives, and the best how.

3:51Kevin Shivers: I'm glad you brought that up because a couple of times already you've mentioned younger agents and really trying to help them out and be there for them. But you didn't start in the mailroom until you were 31 or 30?

4:05Taylor Mims: 31, almost 32.

4:07Kevin Shivers: Can you kind of detail that journey really quick from, you know, 31, starting a new career in the mailroom to now being the co-president?

4:19Taylor Mims: Well, I'll go back a little bit. So I got sober when I was 27 and went back to college. And funny, you don't drink, you don't do drugs, you start making A's and B's, you get a degree. Right. And then I moved to L.A. and I got an internship at Weinstein Company. And I remember I'd walk in there and there would be all these people 10 years younger than me. And I was like, what did I do to myself? And then I just kept showing up every single day, sort of like getting sober. I kept showing up to A meetings or whatever every single day. and then from that point I went to film school and I wanted to be in film and I realized real quickly I was terrible I just love movies because my mother loves movies but I was that was not the career for me I drove a golf cart at Off Sea Limits one year and I talked to some agents and I was fascinated I was like wait you get paid to go to music festivals I was like it always stuck in the back of my head and uh Charles Attal he co-owner C3 I'd been emailing William Morris every single Monday for six months asking for a job.

5:23Taylor Mims: And I was kind of getting nowhere. And one day I just said, Charles, will you help me? And he was like, I was wondering you would ask me for this. And then I literally got the job like 20 minutes later. I walked into this company and I really wanted to be there. I really wanted to be an agent. It felt like home to me. I always loved music. It felt something tangible that I could do. I wasn't stuck with reading scripts all day long. I was thoroughly enjoying that. You know, weekends would feel going to shows and I just walked in and every single day I wanted to be an agent. It's like, same to this day.

5:53Taylor Mims: I was up early this morning. I'm up early every morning. Every single day, I really want to be an agent. Every single day, I really want us to win. And that's, I've kept that, kept that through. I mean, there were times when, you know, I was answering Mark Geiger's phones. I was 35 and I got promoted shortly after that. There were times when that was difficult. I always had the North Star. My dream was always to run an agency or to be co-president or what have you. And that came true April 7th this year. And I just, I always just step stuck with my dreams. If I look back on it, I mean, 15 years, it's been a fast ascent.

6:30Taylor Mims: I think I've been working on this my whole life. Through my half, I'm 50. So there you go.

6:35Kevin Shivers: Even, yeah, even better. Impressive. But so you are co-president alongside Lee Anderson. And I'm curious, how do you two complement each other as co-presidents?

6:48Taylor Mims: I love Lee. Lee is the greatest. He is so great to work with. And Lee and I are totally different. If you've seen Lethal Weapon, I'm definitely Danny Glover. I'll just leave it at that. You're too old for this shit. I'm getting too old for this shit. No. But Lee and I work really well, but I work really well with Lee. uh joe rosenberg he's coo we all just work well together and and grateful we're true partners um i do a lot of the non-touring stuff lee leans into touring but we collaborate on everything we talk about everything it's a true partnership he's an incredible guy and i wouldn't want to be

7:25Kevin Shivers: doing this to anybody else when you say doing non-touring things what does that mean i'm

7:32Taylor Mims: Focusing on like strengthen our departments, brand partnerships, content, how we build our events, that kind of stuff.

7:39Kevin Shivers: One thing that you've always kind of stuck to is that when you sign an artist, you like to work with somebody who you say has a unique voice.

7:46Taylor Mims: Yeah.

7:47Kevin Shivers: What does that mean to you?

7:49Taylor Mims: What that means to me is that they mean something to the universe. Like they're out here changing the world. They have substance in what they're doing. I've been at the team. Signed Leon Thomas. Leon Thomas, I think is just an amazing talent. And really, his music's incredible. Cattro and Paco, they're out of Argentina. I love their live show. I love what they stand for. We re-signed Imagine Dragons. I'm on the team for that. And Dan Reynolds is one of the most prolific songwriters out there. And then I'm from Texas. I'm sorry. I love Big X to plug. We just started working on him a couple of weeks ago.

8:27Taylor Mims: That just means everything to me. I love the way he talks. I love the way he raps. I love what he's saying. I grew up on the Texas rap, so he's unique. And what I mean by this is one-on-one. And then you look at the other clients I represent. Tyler's one-on-one. Callie Uchi's one-on-one. Those are the people that I like. Just unique people, unique voices. I mean, that's the people I gravitate to.

8:55Kevin Shivers: Let's take a break for our Chart Metrics Stat of the Week, which is 21 million. 21 million, that is the number of streams that UGK's front back side to side currently has on Spotify. That is the song that Kevin Shivers walked out to at this year's Trapital Summit. That sent me down a quick rabbit hole where I then learned that International Players Anthem, UGK's biggest hit, and one of the greatest hip-hop songs of all time, has less than 200 million streams on Spotify, currently sitting at 193 million streams. It might be the best hip-hop song ever that currently has under 200 million streams.

9:35Kevin Shivers: I checked a few others that may be a bit less mainstream like 93 to Infinity and others, which has over 300 million streams. So someone might dig and find another gem at this level, but by far, this song criminally underrated, especially on a Spotify platform. Let's get back to the episode. And like you said, you signed Leon Thomas. He's doing amazing right now, obviously, touring, festival run, etc. What was the vision? What were you hoping to do alongside Leon?

10:06Taylor Mims: Well, when I say I sign, I always want to say there's a team of people, right? So, I mean, I work on it with Max Mirabella and James Rubin. And there's, you know, Julia May. There's always a lot of people. We signed him together. And Leon, we just, we saw something special in him. First of all, he's got a crazy manager in Jonathan Azu. When I looked at Leon, when we looked at Leon, we just knew that he was going to be doing what he does 20, 30 years from now. He went on an amazing run last year, sold out the theater run, right? And then, you know, waiting for a new record, and he'll do another amazing run, played Lollapalooza, was playing ACL at one of my favorite festivals.

10:47Taylor Mims: The things he does on stage is just incredible.

10:50Kevin Shivers: When you're looking to sign a new artist, artists are you looking what are you looking for in a person right now like in an artist I'm looking

10:58Taylor Mims: for somebody that really wants to go for it somebody that wants to tear down walls and barriers and and get to the highest level they can become I'm looking at their whole team around them I'm looking at their work ethic I want somebody that wants to work really hard I'm looking at you know what they stand for what they say I gotta love I'm a music person so I want to love the music too I'm looking at the whole package

11:23Kevin Shivers: Okay, speaking of the whole package let's talk about Tyler You've been working with Tyler, the creator for like 14 years, I think it is?

11:30Taylor Mims: 14 years, yep

11:32Kevin Shivers: His Grammy performance, absolutely incredible Insane I was there, I could see him on the floor He did not get up for several minutes Yes It was incredible

11:41Taylor Mims: He left it all on the stage

11:43Kevin Shivers: Absolutely, or a couple of feet from it Over the last 14 years I've been working with him He has a festival, which does gangbusters, is amazing, sells out every year. But he's also on tour. And every time he goes on tour, the tours keep doing better and better. How do you balance the demand for him when everyone knows they can go see him at Camp Flognor?

12:08Taylor Mims: I would say in Los Angeles, he was underplayed, right? Before he did the six cryptos, he had only played Camp Flognor. and I think the only other like show he did was the Shrine in like 2015 I have a near perfect memory like 2015 right 2015 2016 and he would he played like a couple of shows at the L-Ray here and there so he was really undertoured I'm lucky to be in Tyler's universe in his orbit and he goes and creates he makes Chromacopia he makes all these great records James and I my partner on Tyler we just we come with a lot of ideas and just talk to him and his managers Chris and Kelly and say this is what we were thinking and Tyler be like I like this I don't like this and we kind of collaborate on it you know and our job is just to show up what ideas be be proactive and let him create right and he's Tyler the creator I mean he's every single record gets better and better and better and he changes his sound and I'm just like and these characters these characters get more interesting and better.

13:11Taylor Mims: So, I mean, it's just been, it's been a crazy ride with him.

13:14Kevin Shivers: Yeah, just the other day on Billboard, there was a list of the top grossing hip hop touring acts. And Tyler's very young. He was number six.

13:24Taylor Mims: Yeah.

13:25Kevin Shivers: Which is incredible. Where does he go from here? What do you do next?

13:29Taylor Mims: I mean, we did six LA, six New Yorks, two Londons. I mean, multiples in Australia, multiples in Paris. I mean, you know, I think we're going to try to play some stadiums.

13:42Kevin Shivers: I can't wait to see it. When you are working with an artist, and whether it's Tyler or whomever, how do you balance the soft tickets? So like a festival, those kind of appearances versus jumping into an arena or stadium tour?

13:55Taylor Mims: Well, I think you've got to figure out the plan, right? It's a balance, right? Every artist is different. Like some people, the plan is we want to go out and play festivals. Other people, the plan is we want a hard ticket and play festivals. So I think it's just sitting down with your artists, having a concrete plan, figuring out what to do. I do believe festivals play a good place in awareness. Everybody wants to, you know, when you come up, you want to play Coachella, and you get to a certain point before you go bigger. I mean, I think the goal for most artists is, you know, you want to headline these festivals.

14:24Taylor Mims: So they all play a point in your career. I also think that festivals are a great place for young fans to see a lot of different bands for one ticket price, right? And that's really with exposure. So I love what festivals do for artists. I think the festival business is harder and harder these days because, you know, 10, 15 years ago, you could just flat festival on something. If it didn't make sense nowadays, they really have to have a point of view. And curating the top bill of a festival is harder because a lot of artists are choosing to, the money you can make in arenas and the money you can make in stadiums kill festivals and they're choosing to go make the money, right?

15:08Taylor Mims: Yeah. So I think it's harder, but I really love festivals. I love going to Camp Flognac. I love ACL. I mean, Lala, Coachella. I mean, I love some of the European ones. So I enjoy it.

15:21Kevin Shivers: Okay, risky question. What's your favorite festival?

15:24Taylor Mims: Camp Flognac.

15:26Kevin Shivers: Okay, that wasn't risky at all. What's your favorite one for your artists to play? What's a favorite one for you to go to yourself to attend?

15:34Taylor Mims: My favorite one for me to go to off-city limits because I went to college there. I mean, I don't, I've been to every off-city limits. I don't miss ACL. Artists to play? I mean, I love Coachella. I love Flogdaw. There's something special about Lala, just, you know, the ease of just being in the middle of Chicago and being able to walk from your hotel and go down. But I think artists, something about Coachella, everybody, like, all the artists all want to play Coachella. You know, they could not be touring at all. If Coachella offer comes in, it's confirmed.

16:06Kevin Shivers: And you've been going to all kinds of festivals this year with your clients. And one of the things that you and the team have pointed out is that you have a lot of artists on these really big festivals, on these rosters. What do those numbers mean?

16:21Taylor Mims: We crush festivals. If you follow me on IG, I post all the time. The numbers don't lie. I think we're very proud of it. I think that we do so well at festivals because the team has a lot of amazing acts that people want to go see. I mean, the roster is insane. We had the most acts on Coachella. I think on most of the majors we had the most acts. I'd have to go back and look at my posts. First of all, people want to book our artists. We have an amazing festival team led by Jesse Fane and Adam Brill and Mike Sosen, Shannon Casey and Jasmine Griffin. People like dealing with the team. But buyers tell me all the time we're easy to deal with.

16:58Taylor Mims: And I think it shows. These bills come out. I'm always amazed. We have, you know, the majority of acts on there.

17:05Kevin Shivers: It's pretty incredible. In terms of stadium shows, in the last, what is it, about a decade or so, we've really seen stadium shows pick up. A lot more artists have been able to do them. They've been selling them out. They've been doing really well. Arena shows have obviously been around for a long time, continue to do well. but maybe they're a little not growing at the same pace as the stadium shows. Do you think there's a reason for that?

17:29Taylor Mims: I think there's a few reasons. We'll start with the stadiums and I'll break it all down. The massive stars are choosing to play stadiums. Listen, you can go play a stadium and hit more fans and play less dates and make more money, right? And I think 10 years ago, that wasn't really the culture. Also, the stadiums are getting better. They're building these new stadiums and people just enjoy playing them. The experience is good. I just think that's what's happening with the stadium culture. But also, I mean, stars are playing arenas. Look at Olivia Rodrigo. She's playing multiple nights in arenas, and she could play stadiums.

18:04Taylor Mims: But I think that, you know, with dynamic and platinum, you're getting to the point where you can walk out of arenas and make really good money and get creative with it. Right now, stars, people are traveling to go watch their favorite artists. That's just the end-all, be-all, and that's what's happening. A lot of them happen to be in stadiums.

18:23Kevin Shivers: That's definitely the trend that we've been seeing. Then we've also seen a lot of news out about arena shows that are not doing so well, that are canceling. Then you look at the Live Nation earnings report and they're like, it's not a real thing. It's the same percentage that we've seen for years. I'm curious if you think that that's actually a trend that's happening in terms of more arena shows canceling or if it's just if it's something else.

18:49Taylor Mims: I've definitely read the articles. I don't think it's a trend. I think that, you know, it's easy to pick up on things when they're not doing well. There's so many things that are doing well, but there's a lot of things that are playing every single day that are over-indexing. I'd love to see some of those stories. So maybe you could write one tomorrow.

19:08Kevin Shivers: I did not come here for an assignment, Kevin. I have editors for that, okay? Right. There's also this trend that I think people are maybe less aware of, which is that people are buying tickets later and later now.

19:22Taylor Mims: It's very scary when you're Asian. Yeah. Like like we see shows go up and I'm like, oh, this is a problem. This is a problem. And then, you know, you're staying with it, staying with it. And then like two or three weeks out, they start selling. But I think it's just the times. It's what's going on in the world. It's the financial times. People are like, I'll get to it when I get to it. Also, we've made ticket buying at times hard. I mean, who's waking up at 10 a.m. to buy a ticket, right? When you know you got options, you got resale, you can wait. So I think the fans are getting smarter.

19:58Kevin Shivers: Yeah, I've tried. It's hard. So I'm curious, if that's the trend, if we're seeing shows sell out later, uh what is is a sellout on on sale still important to to people do they want to see that is that or

20:14Taylor Mims: i think it depends on your strategy right there could be sometimes when you in a smaller cap venue your strategy is i want to blow everything out to you know to have awareness i i tend to think like if shows are really in the right venue and doing what they're doing uh you know it should take a minute for them to sell out and if they're priced right. So it just depends on the strategy.

20:39Kevin Shivers: Well, I could ask you a thousand more questions, but thank you so much for chatting today. I really appreciate everybody giving up for Kevin Chivers. Thank you. And that is a wrap. Thank you again to both Kevin and Taylor for having that conversation on stage. Thank you to Sean T. Smith for capturing both the audio and video at this year's Trapital Summit. Thank you to our sponsors. Thank you to G, Eric, and Abigail for everything you did to help make this episode possible. And most importantly, thank you for listening. If there's one person you know that would really enjoy Trapital and get a lot out of it, send them a link to the show, whether it's this conversations on stadium shows and where everything is going or any of the conversations that we have on Trapital.

21:23Kevin Shivers: Word of mouth, that's how Trapital reaches the right people. Make sure you're followed, subscribed, Leave a comment if you haven't already. Thanks again. Talk to you next time.