What We Learned at Trapital Summit 2026

0:04Dan Runcie: I'm Dan Runcie. Welcome to Trapital. And this is our Summit recap episode. It has been quite the week. 48 hours in LA. That was it. Flew down, rehearsal at the venue, dinner the night before the Summit, sleep, full day Summit that day, a little happy hour that we did, sleep, meet someone in the morning for breakfast, fly back home, boom. And now we're here, we're back, and we are doing our recap on all things Trapital Summit. We are joined by Tati Sirisano, who joined us last year for the recap episode. And Tati's been with us now for three Trapital Summits in a row, hosting different conversations.

0:42Dan Runcie: But this year, unlike last year, her and I didn't share the stage to talk about any of the key things that are happening in the industry, in the business. So we thought this would be a good opportunity to do that, share some reflections on the day, especially in advance of us sharing and rolling out some of the conversations that we had. So here it is. Here's our Trapital Summit recap. This episode of Trapital is presented by Symphonic, which recently launched Next. Their new initiative focused on catalog acquisitions, royalty advances and indie artist financing. As the needs of independent artists and labels evolve, so does Symphonic.

1:22Dan Runcie: With Next, they're creating new pathways to capital and strategic partnerships, giving their clients the flexibility to grow, invest, and scale on their terms. According to Symphonic CEO Jose Brea, Next is designed to be flexible across a wide range of opportunities, typically supporting transactions from catalogs generating around$25 ,000 in the last 12 months of earnings, up to larger multi-million dollar acquisitions depending on the opportunity. To learn more, tap the link in the show notes. All right, we are here for our Trapital Summit recap episode. We are joined by Tati Sirisano. Year three, we did it.

2:00Year three, another year down. It's really crazy. I mean, I know I said this to you yesterday, but I actually can't believe that you haven't always had Trapital Summit.

2:10Dan Runcie: Like, I can't believe it's year three, but I also can't believe it's only year three. right right because for me obviously i think about it as the summit but i know hearing other people say oh are you going to be at trapital this year oh i went to trapital even hear them talk about it's like oh this is now what they're referring to as that okay yeah that must be wild for you um it does feel ingrained as just like part of the part of the annual schedule that is are like the must be at events which is awesome i feel like it's gotten you know a bit stronger and stronger each year. And I know there's a lot that we're going to get into, but we'll start here.

2:46Dan Runcie: What was your biggest takeaway from the summit? Yeah, I mean, it's hard to pick one, but something that really stuck out to me personally, and I was just writing about this, is just how much this idea of the convergence of different industries and different types of media is not just an emerging trend anymore. It really is just the way things are now. More often than not, an artist also is involved in other ventures, whether it's they also have a merch brand that's really a fashion brand, or they're starring in a movie or playing a role in a movie or having a podcast or having sort of different elements to their business.

3:32And it was interesting to me that I didn't think twice about Kev on stage, the comedian, being a speaker at a music conference, because it made sense that we're all sort of in this umbrella of the entertainment industry, learning about strategies that transcend mediums. And Kevin is a comedian, but that same story is sort of told across his live tour, his podcast, his YouTube channel, all these different sort of formats. And so I've written about this too before, but I feel like there's this decoupling of story from format, where it used to be a TV show was a TV show, and that was both a format and a type of story.

4:13And now it's the same story can be across multiple formats, whether the story originated in music or something else. So that really stood out to me.

4:21Dan Runcie: I would agree with that, because I think on stage when him and I were talking, he was talking about how he looks at 2B specifically in those deals. And although that's gotten plenty of media attention, understandably so, the bulk of his revenue is still what he does on the road. So he's like, sure, this will develop over time on the media side, but I see this as an engine to be able to reach more people to be able to do this thing on the road and these live performances. And that is the exact same conversation that we've been seeing in music play out for years. And it's also played a part in these conflicts that we continue to see between the rights holders, the platforms, and the artists themselves.

5:02Yeah, no. And this also came up in a way in your conversation with Steve Boom over at Amazon, where you had asked him about ad supported and the debate over whether that brings value or if, you know, Rob String at Sony had said, oh, this should be something that even an ad-supported account should be a subscription. And Steve came back with, I think, well, many of the artists wouldn't be happy with that because it means that their music has restricted reach. And to them, it's more important, especially because they're not making as much of their returns from streaming, that they just have the ability to get their music out there.

5:40So there's sort of this thread of how the industry, quote unquote, like labels, publishers, DSPs think about the business versus how the individual artists and creatives think about it.

5:52Dan Runcie: Right, right. And that's why I felt like someone like Steve is perfect to be able to speak on this, right? Because granted, he isn't coming from the rights holder side, but he's also overseeing a number of other products that are having their own dynamics with different artists, different collaborators, where that stands in their whole ecosystem. So yeah, and I think this also, that point he made himself is also another reason why the Netflix to Spotify price comparison, yes, it is stark and frankly, it probably will become more stark before it becomes less stark, but that dynamic will always be there in a way that just doesn't exist in video for all the reasons that he and I discussed on stage.

6:32Dan Runcie: One thing that you and I did not get to do on stage, which we did last year, was you and I actually discussed the bold predictions where we did it a little bit differently this year, which I do think was effective where we had pulled the audience ahead of time and then we were able to do a quick show of hands in the room and share a few of them. So we don't have to go recreate a segment that we weren't going to do now. But I'm curious if you had to pick one of the bold predictions or if any of them stuck out that you did want to discuss, which ones came to mind? Yeah, it's hard for me to choose between two.

7:05So I'll say both quickly. I mean, one was, um, Suno will have a licensing agreement with all major record labels by 2028. Am I right that it was like a 50 50 split or was that a different one in the audience? Do you remember?

7:20Dan Runcie: That one was a majority. Yes. I believe it was 83%. Yes. And 17%. No. If I remembered, I think a majority of people felt like it was inevitable that Suno, and at this point, they're specifically asking whether or not Universal and Sony would since Warner already has. So yeah, that's what they're saying that Sony will go from say no to Suno to say yes to Suno. Oh, that's right. Yes. Yeah. Because while I do think that it is sort of inevitable, YouTube used to be sort of the enemy to the industry. And now, you know, it's it's a completely different story um but i also think that there are certain things that are just gonna be really hard to agree on like i feel that for the labels and universal in particular it seems that having a walled garden is a really like sticking point for them and i'm not sure that i see suno agreeing to that this is totally just my um impressions because i have no insight into these conversations.

8:23But yeah, that one, I do think that it's likely inevitable, but I was a little bit surprised by the degree to which, like you said, it was something like 84 % said yes. I was a little bit surprised by the degree, like how strongly people felt that this was definitely

8:40Dan Runcie: going to happen. I remember having a conversation with a label executive a couple months ago who said they were reflecting on when the labels were suing YouTube, when streaming was first getting figured out and all this stuff was happening. There was immense actual pressure from the artists at the labels for the labels to do these deals because they wanted their music to be out there. Whereas the same executive said, comparing that to now with AI, there's much less pressure from the artists. I think the absence of that pressure from the artists is, I think that makes a difference. I agree with that.

9:15Dan Runcie: For any specific artist, it still requires or at least needs to have some type of buy in from the artist. Right. So I do think that is a key piece to see with a lot of these announcements of partnerships. Yeah. So it's like I think ultimately I'm not it's not that I don't think it's going to happen. It's more that I'm skeptical about the timeline because I feel like there's still a lot. There's a lot that needs to happen. I can see that. What was your second one? Oh, the second one was Netflix. I think it was that Netflix would add music streaming. That was an interesting one to me because I really enjoyed your podcast episode about that and the newsletter about that.

9:58you had pointed out that for Netflix, maybe it would be more about another way to compete with YouTube, as in having music videos, and to have something that people return to regularly rather than watching a show, and then the show ends, and then they don't have a reason to come back. I actually am more convinced than I used to be that Netflix would add music streaming. You brought me on to that side, I guess. I don't know what side you're on, but yeah, from the points you brought in your newsletter, I became a lot more convinced.

10:32Dan Runcie: Let's take a break for our Chart Metrics stat of the week, where the number is 10x. On YouTube, there is a live performance of one of Dua Lipa's songs that is getting 10x the number of daily views as the original music video on YouTube. The song that we're talking about is Training Season. In late 2024, Dua Lipa recorded a live performance of that song at the Royal Albert Hall. That song has continued to grow year over year, month over month. The song is currently doing over 2 million views on YouTube daily compared to the original music video, which is doing around 200 ,000 daily views. Like a lot of these things, TikTok was the origination place for where the trend started.

11:16Dan Runcie: A lot of people saw this as a relationship manifestation song, but the fact that the live performance version has caught on so much more than the original music video is very rare. One of the only other cases where this has happened is Adele. She famously performed Set Fire to the Rain in this same venue, Royal Albert Hall. There's something about that place. And if you haven't seen this music video, whether the Dua Lipa or the Adele one, highly recommend. Let's get back to the episode. Because I've also noticed, I don't know if this is just me, but I feel like I've noticed that we're in a new stage of streaming TV where it feels like everyone has watched the majority of what they want to watch and rewatch things and watch shows that they didn't get into the first time around like me with Game of Thrones last year and I feel like we're getting to the point where um wait you just started watching Game of Thrones last year yeah in 2025 yeah oh wow okay I guess that's but that's kind of the point that I'm making Dan is that if we're at the point where like even people who were this late to the game have finally watched the thing that they're late to the game for and have rewatched all their favorite shows and have watched everything that they want to watch like despite obviously the wealth of shows and movies that are available I think we're reaching a new point in tv streaming where like I actually haven't watched that much tv in the past couple of months because I feel like I've run out of things to watch, which is crazy.

12:45Didn't think that would ever happen. So yeah, I guess all that is to say, I think that platforms like Netflix are probably thinking about how can we get people to continue using the platform and seeing value in a subscription, even when they feel like they've watched all the things they want to watch right now. And music and music videos could be part of that.

13:04Dan Runcie: Yeah, I would agree with that. I think the more I've sat with this one too, it started to feel more inevitable. And I think it's for a few reasons. First, a lot of the things that Netflix themselves had said, we are not going to do this. Netflix has ended up doing that thing, right? Whether it is, we're not going to have ads on Netflix. We're not going to get into live. All of those things are now part of the product. So I could see music, despite all the complications that people often have with music, being part of that. We're also seeing more of the convergence of sameness across these platforms.

13:37Dan Runcie: is this is something that you and I talked about on our social media episode. We're talking about meta and some of the things that they were doing and how all of the social networks have all of the same features. You may go to them for different things, but they all have some form of video, some form of text, some form of short form posts that may go away after 24 hours, other things that stay there indefinitely. And that's the nature of these things. And you're seeing this more with these streaming video on-demand services as well, where Disney Plus is now adding short-form video and doing their partnership with TikTok, right?

14:15Dan Runcie: And I think that I wouldn't be surprised to see, given the nature of where this prediction started from, Netflix adding music. Because if the video podcasting was 5 % to 6 % of the total watch time on YouTube, then music videos and music related to content was five times that, 30%. So if you're really trying to compete with Netflix, you compete with where the watch time is for what the people are doing for the most part. And I know that people have had issues or concerns about how effective Netflix's video podcasting strategy is. I definitely talked about that in the newsletter that you referenced earlier, but a lot of this does seem inevitable.

14:54Dan Runcie: I think there's a few ways to go about it, but I feel like Robert, it made sense for him to put that out there. And again, him being a former Netflix executive, him also being YouTube chief business officer and now running the music company with Warner Music. He is the person to be able to in many ways connect these dots and say, oh, okay, we should be doing this. We should be doing that, vice versa. On the flip side, was there anything that was the most discussed thing that you heard people discuss the most in the audience, whether it was during lunch or networking breaks from a discussion? I mean, this is definitely like, it's gonna be biased to me because people were coming up to me to talk to me about the sessions I moderated, right?

15:35So it might have just been like my perspective, but I did feel like there were a lot of conversations being had about the friction between what the world of finance wants to see and how labels and artist development work. People talking about investors wanting predictability, but so much of the industry is built on taking risks, talking about how investors want to see quarterly growth, but an artist's growth is rarely linear. Yeah, I think that topic, obviously, it's something that a lot of people in the industry are coming face to face with every day. But I think it's also just something that is a source of endless fascination for people, because it's this paradox between sort of these two, not just schools of thought, but actual strategies.

16:27Like knowing that an artist's path is going to be nonlinear, like that is part of the strategy. It's not just like a philosophy. It's just kind of how it tends to work. So I feel like that idea had a lot of, sparked a lot of conversations.

16:43Dan Runcie: No, I could see that. Because especially with Universal this year, it's been so public and out in the open with Ackman's attempt to bring the company onto a US-based public stock exchange and his financial engineering for where he thought the value should be. But it brought more of the challenges up to light. And a lot of the questions that people have had specifically is Universal Music Group and Warner by extension. But are these the type of companies that want to operate like publicly traded companies in a way that Wall Street would want, whether you're setting yourself up for the type of quarterly growth that you had referred to.

17:22Dan Runcie: And I know that, you know, Will had spoke to a lot of this on stage. I'm curious, going back to the other question, were there any discussions that were happening in the room that weren't conversations that were reflected on stage? Maybe they complimented or maybe they were just a little bit different from what we had heard on stage. Yeah, I suppose there was some conversations about the merch and the fandom of it all, which, you know, an ever present topic in the industry that probably came up on some panels and maybe some that I was backstage for and didn't get to hear, but wasn't like as front and center, maybe in the speakers that came up in a couple of conversations that I had just people talking about how fandom strategies need to evolve how merch the merch industry needs to evolve to be more like uh other consumer products um including like fashion brands and even like if you think about anything like food and beverage um candles like uh pillows anything these in these brands seem to know more about their audiences and how to market to them and create more new types of products than maybe were creating on the merch side, like thinking about merch, not as a obligatory add on to an artist project, but as its own business line.

18:47That was something that came up in more than one conversation I had.

18:50Dan Runcie: No, that definitely makes sense. And I think that given there were some folks with bravado there that this is their business to be able to push this and in the opening room. Yeah, no, of course, of course. And, and, and, and Kevin mentioned some of this as well, when he was just talking about ways that he's monetizing his touring product as well. Yeah, yeah. And seeing of Kevin, I could talk for another 30 minutes about his chat with you because it was so funny, so insightful. His move to have his live tour in churches so that he could control more of the business and recognizing that churches actually have kind of a great audio setup and great acoustics and like, why not have this in there?

19:31That was just so fascinating. So I got a lot out of that conversation.

19:35Dan Runcie: He definitely kept it real. And I would continue. I know you do have a hard stop, but no, I have a lot of thoughts on that one. But we will be sharing that full conversation soon for anyone that didn't get to listen or watch it. But yeah. But Tati, no, thanks again. This was a lot of fun. And I look forward to the rest of the audience and the folks that weren't there being able to see and hear the conversations that you had. Because you had the one with Will that you mentioned in the morning. And then later in the afternoon, you and Michelle Jubalier from Sock Shock got a chance to sit down as well.

20:06Dan Runcie: Yeah. Both of those were amazing. And yeah, thank you for having me. I'm excited for year four and beyond. I know. Yeah. It's going to be here before we know it. Yep. All right. Thanks, Tati. Thanks, Dan. And that is a wrap. Thank you again to Tati for joining me. Thank you to everyone that made the Trapital Summit possible. Thank you to our gold partners, Symphonic, Universal Music Group, and Warner Music Group. Thank you to our silver partners as well, Dreamstreet, Influr, Sharpmetric, and SoundCloud. And thank you to all of our Browns partners. Thank you again to Jesse Meyer, our event producer.

20:42Dan Runcie: Thank you to Denisha as well, who had came and joined us for the Beat on the Street conversations in the room. Thank you to all of the event staff that was there with us. Thank you to G, Eric, everyone on our team that helped us make the Trapal Summit possible. But most importantly, thank you for listening. If there's one person you know that would enjoy this recap episode or any of the conversations that you'll hear on Trapital, send them a link to the show. Word of mouth is still the best way to grow. Leave a comment, leave a review, and make sure you're following us on Apple, YouTube, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts.

21:15Dan Runcie: That's where Trapital is. Thanks again. Talk to you next time.