Who Will Win in the AI Music Courtroom?

0:04Jenna Gaudio: I'm Dan Runcie. Welcome to Trapital. Another week full of exciting developments happening in the space. We got a lot we're going to get into. First, we're going to talk about AI and music and what the current pulse is right now. On one hand, there are more lawsuits popping up every day. Everyone's suing one of the generative AI music companies. But on the other hand, there's some interesting comments from the Department of Justice that may counter the AI music companies. some of those lawsuits that we're seeing. So where is all of this heading? What should we expect? I got some thoughts and we're going to get into that.

0:37Jenna Gaudio: Next, we're going to talk a bit more about our Trapital Summit, which is right around the corner. The summit is Tuesday, September 15th, and we're also going to share a few more bold predictions from some of the leaders who will be in the room at the summit. In this week's episode, you'll hear from some of the leaders that are pushing things on the music side at NVIDIA and at Vidia. To be clear, two separate companies, but two very similar names. Of course, there's NVIDIA, the company that makes the chips, the computing infrastructure, and the processing software to help power the AI models, the data centers, and everything that is the backbone behind this next generation of where technology is heading.

1:16Jenna Gaudio: And then there's also Vidia, the music distribution company, which is currently owned by Gamma, and they power the music to get directly to digital service providers, streaming services, and others. But first, AI and music, and more broadly, AI and intellectual property, a space that frankly feels more like a walk-in contradiction every day. Here's what I mean. On one hand, on the music side, it seems like every week there is another major rights holder that is suing one of the generative AI music companies, whether it is Socan, the Canadian Rights Group, or Roundhill Music, or Jason Isbell and other songwriters directly themselves.

1:58Jenna Gaudio: A lot of them have taken lawsuits up in recent weeks that have generated headlines. There has been comments from UDO, Suno, and others about their continued defense for fair use. But on the other side, the Trump administration, specifically the Department of Justice, has urged a federal judge to rule in favor of OpenAI and OpenAI's current lawsuit that the New York Times took against the generative AI company. The DOJ's position is this. AI training should be and can be protected by fair use. And their concern, if that it isn't, is that the broad licensing that would be required for this type of training would one, slow scientific process, two, American prosperity, and three, U.S.

2:44Jenna Gaudio: competitiveness. So what's actually going on here? I think there's three different legal questions that keep getting bundled together. Question number one, can the AI learn from the copyrighted work? Question number two, how did the company get the copyrighted material? And then third, what can the model produce after it learns from the data that it was based on. Let's tackle that first one. Can AI learn from work that's under copyright? And based on that$1.5 billion lawsuit with Anthropic earlier this year, the answer is yes if you're basing it off of that ruling. Because to be clear, the judge ruled in that case that training Claude on copyrighted books was fair use.

3:32Jenna Gaudio: And this gets at question number two. How did they get the copywritten material? In Anthropic's case, they downloaded millions of books from pirated libraries. That was the issue. And that's the real reason why they got sued for$1.5 billion. So it brought up this interesting question. Okay, let's say that Anthropic didn't just rip these from the internet. Let's say that they went to the bookstore, bought each of these books individually, copied those pages, and then ingested that into the models themselves. would that have been different if they bought the books, scanned them, digitized them themselves?

4:07Jenna Gaudio: But this is an important distinction for music. If one of these generative AI music platforms that is currently either being sued or been in lawsuits, if they ripped their music directly from Spotify, YouTube, a BitTorrent, or some pirated site, based on this anthropic ruling, that would be treated very differently than if those companies had went on iTunes and bought each of those albums individually that they trained on. So there's that piece of it. But then there's question number three, which frankly may be more of a question in music as opposed to the New York Times or books or some of these other areas.

4:44Jenna Gaudio: What can the model produce after it learns? And that thing that it produces, is that a substitute? Is that a compliment? Where does that fit in the underlying work? Because even if the training itself is fair use, does that mean that every output from that is protected? For instance, if you go to a generative AI platform that, let's say they have a license with Universal Music Group Music, and you say, give me a new Drake song, or give me a song that sounds something like a collaboration between The Weeknd and Ariana Grande. What happens when that generative song becomes a substitute for the actual artist's product?

5:25Jenna Gaudio: And this is where music, I think, is different from text. Because an LLM can learn from thousands of New York Times articles and generate an answer. If you were just looking for, hey, catch me up on the latest on what's happening with the conflict in Gaza. Catch me up on the latest of what's happening with the foldable iPhone. That output, yes, you can make a case that the attention that that output captures may compete against a New York Times article, but it really doesn't compete against the actual article themselves in the more traditional way. It would be a stretch to call that a substitution.

6:01Jenna Gaudio: But the output of a song that sounds like a new Drake song or sounds like an Ariana Grande and The Weeknd collaboration, if you are in the right setting, that could be a substitute. That could occupy the same exact area that would be a sync placement for a TV show? Could a music supervisor that's under a budget choose to use that type of output and save a ton of money if the economics still aren't worked out as opposed to licensing that music directly from that artist? But if we take a step back, my bet on where all of this goes is this. And to be clear, this isn't what I'm advocating for. This isn't also what I'm hoping for either.

6:41Jenna Gaudio: This is based on the inference of where things have gone, other lawsuits, and how this thing may most likely play out, this is what I think will happen. So don't be coming after me thinking that, oh, this is what Dan Runcie hopes happens. This is not the case. First, the training itself. Let's talk about that. I think that it's increasingly likely that the training of this material will get the broad fair use protection. The generative AI music platforms will end up getting that. Troy Carter and I talked about this when he and I did the podcast episode this spring and we talked about Suno and others.

7:15Jenna Gaudio: I know that his take was a bit more bullish on where it all may go for Suno specifically, but I do think that in terms of the fair use aspect of it, I do think that these companies will likely get that protection, primarily because of one, the push that we're seeing from the DOJ, and then second, the anthropic lawsuit and the precedence that was set there. The second piece is the pirated source material. for these generative AI music companies. If we are to believe that they went to iTunes or wherever to download each of these songs in a legal way, buying those songs and then using the songs that they bought for this trading material, who knows?

7:55Jenna Gaudio: I can't say one way or another. I know that there are many that believe it's more likely that it was the latter, whether it was pulled from a streaming platform, YouTube, BitTorrent, you name it. But that type of risk, that is the type of thing that could lead to some type of legal remedy, not too different from what you may have seen with the Anthropoc case. Not in terms of the dollar amount, but in terms of the precedent. And you may be listening to this and wondering, okay, well, if Suno and Yudio and others think that they are going to get fair use, why would they partner with Warner Music?

8:25Jenna Gaudio: Why would they partner with Universal Music? Having the license to simply train the data or rather the protection to train the data is just one thing. You also want to be able to have the partnership that can allow for the recordings, a publishing relationship, artist participation, name and likeness, again, commercial use, distribution, and ultimately industry legitimacy. There is something to be said for being in good graces. And I think we have seen, as we've talked about on this podcast before, we have seen other companies struggle because they literally spent their last dollars fighting tooth and nail to make sure that they could win lawsuits or win legal protection that they felt that they had.

9:10Jenna Gaudio: But they got so sucked into that, that they frankly lost the forest from the trees in terms of making sure that their business could stay afloat and get to the next level. It may be reductive to say, do you want to be right or do you want to win? But as we've seen these IP laws play out, in some ways you can roughly put different companies and different organizations in one bucket or another based on the hands that they've played, especially the past 25 to 30 years as music piracy and all of these laws have started to come more and more to light. This also speaks to why a company like Stability or Clay may proactively go the right of making sure that they try to get permission instead of asking for forgiveness.

9:51Jenna Gaudio: Because yes, even if these companies could get fair use, having a license doesn't necessarily get you everything that you may want with a particular artist. You still want the right to exploit it. As I mentioned, the likeness and the voice, distribution, revenue participation, all of those things. So all that to say, I don't think this ends with a neat AI wins or a copyright owner wins. And for the music industry itself, both the major record labels and the indies too. I think a lot of the attention has gone to what Universal, Sonya, Warner may be doing, but as we've seen, the independent sector continues to grow, so there is a large, valuable voice to be had there too.

10:31Jenna Gaudio: I believe it'll ultimately play out like this. The record labels, both big and small, may not be able to charge for every act of machine learning on its copyright and music based on the fair use argument that I made, but I do think that they may be able to gain leverage much closer to the actual point of monetization of what's most valuable, which is what I think everyone actually wants here. So we will continue to follow along with AI music, where things are going. I do think that you will enjoy our bold prediction segment, specifically the one from Sherry Reich from NVIDIA, where we do talk a bit more about AI music and where this is all going.

11:08Jenna Gaudio: But first, a bit more about our Trapital Summit. it. Again, like I said, we are less than two weeks away, Tuesday, September 15th. This is the third annual year that we're doing this. I truly do think that the event gets better and better every year. And I know I said this last week, but I'll say it again here. The partnerships, the valuable connections that people make in the room, that's the real value that people get from these events. We spend a tremendous amount of time curating, making sure that we have the right folks in the room so that this can really be beneficial for that purpose. But this is a podcast.

11:42Jenna Gaudio: We also take pride in the conversations we have on stage. And we've been really intentional about making sure that this is a space for one-on-one fireside conversations. Frankly, there would be certain things that could be easier from a conference planning perspective if we had four or five people on stage, which is a very similar thing that we see across the board at different conferences. But I did not want that to be that way with this event. each conversation should be the type of thing that you would listen to no different than listening to an episode of this podcast. The bar is high. We wanna maintain the bar being that high.

12:17Jenna Gaudio: And I'm fortunate by the speakers we have that'll be joining us on stage at the summit. You'll hear from the top leaders that are driving the strategy and change forward at the biggest companies and the most influential ones in this industry. Disney, Ticketmaster, the team, which is formerly the Wasserman Agency. You'll also hear from Primary Wave, Amazon, the list goes on. I'm sure that most people that host events at this scale likely feel that it can be a labor of love at particular points. Events are not an easy business, but I do think that if you have the right spirit, the right approach with it, you truly can create something that is so much more valuable than the effort that we put into it for the people that attend, the people that speak at it, and more.

13:00Jenna Gaudio: It truly has been a highlight for us, and I'm glad that it's been a highlight for the industry as well. So again, if you want to join us, we still do have some tickets available and we will sell them until we no longer have capacity. So you can get your ticket by going to trapital.com slash summit or clicking the link in your show notes. And hopefully we will see you in Los Angeles on Tuesday, September 15th. And now it is time for our two back-to-back bold prediction segments. First, let's hear from Jenna Gaudio, who is the co-president of Vidya. Let's take a break for our chart metric stat of the week, which is 1.95 million.

13:41Jenna Gaudio: That's how many Spotify streams the Bee Gees' Stayin' Alive generated on Thursday, September 3rd, almost 50 years after the song came out. The song entered Spotify's global top 50 this week following a viral video from country star Ella Langley, the singer of Shoes in Texas, dancing and lip syncing to the song. Before that video, Stayin' Alive was roughly doing around 800 ,000 to 900 ,000 daily Spotify streams based on some back-of-the-envelope math here, which means that consumption has more than doubled. It's now Spotify's most streamed song, That Day, released before 1980, ahead of songs that are hits like Fleetwood Mac's Dreams, Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody, Dolly Parton's Jolene, or Earth, Wind & Fire's September.

14:29Jenna Gaudio: Just shows the power of a viral video, especially from someone like Ella Langley, who literally blew up this year in 2026. Let's get back to the episode. All right, we are back with another bold prediction segment. And today we are joined by Vidya's Jenna Gaudio. Welcome to the show.

14:46Shari Reich: Thanks for having me.

14:47Jenna Gaudio: Of course, I'm glad you can do this. And I know that whenever we catch up, always interesting insights. And now we get to hear one of them on record. So what's your bold prediction? Where are we heading?

14:57Shari Reich: I think consumption of music is going to shift from listening sessions to continuous contextual experiences. I think we're seeing this a lot with people finally adapting wearables and the technology advancing to a place where there's these intelligent layers that are adaptive and can anticipate how we want to listen to music and where they fit into our everyday life. I do think with technology advancements that there's going to be more of a utility driven music abundancy. And I think with that, authenticated, human, unpredictable artistry is going to be increasingly priced as a premium. And so we'll see kind of this uptick in music sector as a whole in both utility driven music is everywhere and then more of a premium uptick in live experiences, cultural moments and physical collectibles.

15:49Right.

15:50Jenna Gaudio: Talk to me a bit more about the wearable piece of it and the Internet of Things and where that's going.

15:55Shari Reich: I mean, I remember when Google Glass first came out, I would read all these news stories and I was like, the Jetsons were here. You know, I'm going to be able to listen to the soundtrack of my life wherever I go, you know, via glasses. And, you know, that did not go well. People were not ready for it. They didn't really see the value, the way that things are presented and how we've gotten a little bit more comfortable with technology. I think it has opened up new doors for things to be represented to us in a way that is valuable to our lives. I think it's still controversial. Obviously, not everyone is a fan of, you know, the seemingly popular metaglasses.

16:27Shari Reich: And I do think that has more to do with the people than it does the technology. For me, I love, you know, running and I love being athletic. And obviously, as a woman as well, I think there's a lot of features that are in those metaglasses that I think have changed my life in a lot of ways. And not only can I put them on and listen to music wherever I go, but when I go running, it will adapt to my environment. So if a car goes by, or if someone's trying to talk to me, the music will adjust automatically. And so I don't have to fumble with my phone or my watch, which are also wearable that I used previously.

17:03Shari Reich: I think it makes the listening process more seamless. And it also is connected with phone calls. And then there's cameras for safety features. For me, it feels like a safety feature if something were to happen, I could record a situation, it goes to the cloud. And I feel like only now is it something that when that was presented, I knew that that was going to seamlessly integrate into my day-to-day life. And for me, I feel like that's just the beginning.

17:30Jenna Gaudio: So I feel like the next layer of that is, okay, that's clearly a product where companies like Apple can charge more for headphones that have spatial audio. But yeah, I'm thinking through the same way that we see that the price for concert tickets have gotten higher. Do you see either companies building business models around these more experiences or wearables type of audio and how that translates back to revenue, whether that's for hardware or for the music itself?

17:57Shari Reich: I do. I think people are going to start making investments. And I think we can prototype things faster. If you have an idea of, hey, this would be cool. You don't have to wait for some big corporate company to do it. A lot of people are kind of coming up with these ideas, either building them themselves or being able to pitch them faster to companies that have the capital to do it. And so I think we're going to see more ideas go to market faster. And therefore, with more of these experiments, we're going to see which ones people are going to move towards faster and kind of get that cult following that then become brand ambassadors for people to, you know, jump on that wagon.

18:31Shari Reich: I think spatial audio is one of those things. When it first came out, everyone, you know, kind of was like, what is this? How does it fit into our lives? And it was more so for like the music junkies. But really, once you have a spatial audio experience and that builds into your, you know, your earbuds, your car, they're putting in vehicles now, and just your speakers at home, just how the experience changes, I think it's going to become the new normal. And listening to, you know, the old way is going to be a little flatter and people are going to want to have this immersive experience that's context aware to even more interesting things like biometrics and haptics, activity, time of day, how well you slept.

19:12Shari Reich: Can my environment adapt to who I am and what I'm doing in a way that feels more seamless? And I think people will then partner with music companies and obviously have to acquire the rights and be able to have that kind of distribution layer in order to make all that possible. But we've seen it time and time again, music makes everything better, especially technology. I think one of the biggest things we've seen with that is like Instagram and TikTok. Sure, great video platforms without music, but once you put that music layer that was accessible, the general public ate it up and it's a necessity for the success of that product.

19:49Right.

19:50Jenna Gaudio: And you may see some of this already to some degree on your streaming service of choice, but maybe there's an opportunity to get even more dialed in with that. And even if that's just the utility layer of what's on the streaming service that you're using, how does that integrate with your day-to-day life if you're someone that's using a Metaglass or you're using some other type of product?

20:11Shari Reich: Yeah, we're seeing Spotify and Apple coming up with these playlists. I know Spotify launched, going deeper and deeper into these AI generative playlists where you can prompt what you want to listen to. I think it's in beta right now. It's not a full rollout, but I think that you combine other metrics in a controllable way because I think humans should be allowed to choose and opt in into these kinds of things. But, you know, my watch knows how well I slept. Like my my Google app in my car knows if I'm on my way to work or the gym. Right. And those are two different playlists. And so if I got a good night's sleep and I'm on the way to the gym, that's a completely different playlist if I didn't sleep well.

20:50Shari Reich: And, you know, I'm like headed into a meeting where I need to be really focused and, you know, really hone in on things. And I I think music is a really good thermometer that can help us figure out where we're at, but then also kind of adjust the settings to help us get where we need to go. And I think if you can make that more seamless, which I think a lot of technology is starting to do, I think music is going to follow as a thing that people are going to look to most to help move them through their day.

21:22Jenna Gaudio: You said something earlier about that the technology itself isn't necessarily something that may slow adoption, but right now maybe it's more about who is using it. Do you think that's more a stigma around the tech junkie that may be just an early adopter or is there something else going on when you're referring to who is using it?

21:41Shari Reich: As an early adopter myself, I feel like I'm very thoughtful with technology. I don't swing too far one way or the other on my opinion on it. I like to listen. I like to experiment and kind of learn and evolve, you know, with everyone that's using it. But I do think that people are always going to, you're always going to have bad actors. Every single industry, every single community, there's always going to be a bad apple. And, you know, I don't think that we should let the bad apples dictate progress, but I do think that requires us to have, you know, a strong regulation or policy around how this technology is used and hold people accountable and think about that in the design of them.

22:22Shari Reich: And as they evolve in popularity, things change. You know, when when you first launch a social media platform and people are just posting a picture of of their lunch, that's not controversial. But when it's, you know, politically swaying things and having other issues, those are times when you have to be like, well, maybe we didn't plan for this, but it's time to sit down and and kind of design how policy should be and who should be accountable. And I think that's true of any technology. And so I think you're always going to have people that are going to capitalize on things in a not so good way.

22:52Shari Reich: But I think when you look at the positive ways that it could be used, I think you have to design and enforce both in order for it to be successful.

23:01Jenna Gaudio: So if we zoom out and we look two, three years from now, for this prediction to come true, what needs to happen in the marketplace, in the ecosystem right now for it to come out the way you expect it to?

23:16Shari Reich: I think, you know, rights management has obviously always been a very prominent part of, you know, making the music sector successful. And I think as the industry has more opportunity for places for music to be and technology to capitalize on how that can bolster its product, there has to be systems of partnership. There has to be delivery. There has to be really strong communication and regulation around artists deciding when and where they want their music to be used. And then, you know, making sure that there's operational rigor and excellence around this whole process. So I think the future is going to be determined by the people that are able to see where it's going and organize the metadata, the rights, the process for artists to communicate and be able to elect what they do and do not want to do with their music and being able to stand by and enforce kind of how the system is supposed to work and do that at scale.

24:19Shari Reich: And so I think those things need to happen in order for it to be architected in a way where that world works and makes sense for everyone involved.

24:30Jenna Gaudio: That makes sense. That makes sense. Well, we'll definitely have to tap back in soon enough. It'll be here before we know it, but we definitely have to tap in soon to see how that plays out. But Jenna, I appreciate you coming on and making the time and sharing the prediction with us.

24:45Shari Reich: Always love talking to you. Thank you for having me.

24:48Jenna Gaudio: Thank you again to Jenna and the team from Vidya. Next, you'll hear from Sherry Reich from NVIDIA. All right, we are back with another bold prediction segment for our Trapital podcast. And today we are joined by the global head of audio and music for NVIDIA, Sherry Reich. Welcome to the podcast.

25:07Shari Reich: Thank you.

25:08Jenna Gaudio: Well, I appreciate you coming on. Look forward to seeing you very soon at the Trapital summit. And as you know, this is our bold prediction segment. So let's hear it. What's your bold prediction on where we're heading?

25:19Shari Reich: My bold prediction is that AI will unlock the value of the last 200 years of music.

25:25Jenna Gaudio: 200 years. So nothing forward-looking. So this is all about what exists already and how do we make that even more valuable?

25:33Shari Reich: Correct. When people ask me about the future of AI in music, they always want to talk about music generation. Can AI write songs, produce hits, replace musicians? And those are really interesting questions. But I actually think they're the wrong questions. I think the biggest impacts of AI on music won't come from generating new songs. I think it's going to come from unlocking the value of the world's existing catalog. The industry is sitting on one of the most valuable collections of IP ever assembled in history. Decades of recordings, millions of songs, performances that have really shaped the culture around the world.

26:12Shari Reich: And it remains difficult to access. I think music is trapped inside stereo files and complete metadata, disconnected archives. So what excites me the most is not creating another song. It's helping the artist labels publishers to do more with the music that they actually already own.

26:31Jenna Gaudio: One of the things that I hear talking to the rights holder is that, sure, everything is on the streaming services and the DSPs today. But Discovery, what actually gets noticed? What surfaces to the top? How do you break through that noise? How do you get there? So the access to it is one thing, but actually getting through the noise feels like that's been a barrier. Do you feel like this push with AI and where things are going can help with that piece of it, both the discovery and then the consumption?

27:01Shari Reich: Absolutely. I think instead of like simply storing and distributing music, we will be increasingly activating it. So AI can help identify stems from legacy recording, improve metadata, discoverability, accelerate licensing workflows, can help localize content for audiences all around the world, and it can power immersive experiences. I think it can create entirely new ways for fans to engage with the music they already love. So for me, in many ways, future isn't about creating more music. It's creating more value from music.

27:39Jenna Gaudio: One thing that I've seen with TikTok specifically, granted this is less AI, just more algorithmically driven, is that there will be songs that were marginally popular 20, 30 years ago that then become huge hits because of how the algorithms surface different things and things trend to the next level. And I feel like AI should take that to the next level, right? What is that song that may have been equally as good or popular but just didn't get the same love because of gatekeepers or whoever was pulling the strings, right? If so much of where things are going is democratized, then that should create more opportunities for different things to surface.

28:16Shari Reich: I know this has probably come up in several conversations that you've had, but AI is a tool, right? And I think the story is tools. So if you look at the history of music, every major transformation was driven by better tools, multi-track, synthesizer, MIDI, digital audio workstation, but none of these innovations replaced creativity. All they did was amplify it. And I think AI belongs in that same category. I don't think it's going to replace artists. I think it's just going to help solve technical challenges, create ideas, and like I said before, help fans connect more deeply with the artists they love and might not even know that they love.

29:00Jenna Gaudio: I have to assume that part of your role with NVIDIA and the relationship with these music companies is convincing them that this is true and maybe convincing them of some of the preconceived notions they may have about AI as a tool and also what a tool does and what a tool doesn't do.

29:17Shari Reich: Correct. A lot of people want to bet on ambiguity. I don't think that's a sustainable path. I think we start on the right foot, starting with permission, starting with transparency, compensation, creating value for artists and songwriters, musicians, rights holders, creators from day one. I think what's encouraging is that the innovation and competition are not competing ideas. I think that they go hand in hand. I think the companies that are building responsibly today are also building stronger businesses. Right.

29:52Jenna Gaudio: Those that ask for forgiveness do tend to get further ahead sooner. I mean, getting further ahead sooner doesn't necessarily mean that you will last longer, but that's been an ongoing challenge with this. How do we close that gap? How do we make sure that the incentives are rewarding the proper things?

30:11Shari Reich: And the industry itself has experienced so much disruption over the last 25 years or so. I think AI gives us the opportunity to build a healthier ecosystem rather than trying to fix it later and playing catch up.

30:26Jenna Gaudio: And I'm curious for you, because especially your experience, your role, you came from leadership in the music ecosystem, and then you come into this technology company, which is then serving and helping to power what these rights holders can do even more so. Were there certain things that you had shifted your own perception on to be like, oh, okay, hey, I understand how I may have thought about things this way, but now that I'm here on this side of it, okay, this is more clear.

30:52Shari Reich: Yeah, it's actually a really cool perspective. Maybe when I walk into the music labels and either it's peers that I've worked with before, I'm not there to steal their IP and do something like that. I'm excited about the companies that aren't just like building models, building tools, and alongside with the creative community. So having that perspective is great and it gives me a little bit more of trust than possibly just somebody that has no music backgrounds and didn't work hand in hand with artists or manage or supervise or anything like that. But building alongside the creative companies and creative community is just going to give us a much healthier ecosystem.

31:39Shari Reich: And it seems like companies are doing it now. The assets that they have, they're just going to be able to monetize that more, which came back to my bold prediction about AI is going to unlock the value of the last 200 plus years.

31:53Jenna Gaudio: Right. So if we fast forward three, five years from now, if your bold prediction does seem like that's going to be the truth and where things are heading. Is there anything that needs to happen between now and then for that to be true?

32:08Shari Reich: Yeah, I think it catalogs the new content. That's what I really think. I think the more people realize it, the better off we're going to be. Catalogs new content. AI is a tool that unlocks it. I think the companies that will win will be the ones that empower the creators, compensate right holders and turn music from literally a file into an experience.

32:31Jenna Gaudio: Well, we will definitely stay tuned and follow along with that. But Sherry, appreciate you coming on and look forward to seeing you very soon at the summit.

32:40Shari Reich: Thank you so much. Look forward to it.

32:44Jenna Gaudio: And that is a wrap. Thank you again to both Jenna and Sherry for joining us. Thank you again to our team, Rowana, G, Eric, Abigail, for everything that you do to help make Trapital possible, especially leading up to our summit. And most importantly, thank you for listening. If there's one person you know that would really enjoy Trapital and get a lot out of it, then send them a link to the show. Whether it's this episode where we talked about AI and lawsuits or any of the conversations that we have, word of mouth is still the best way to grow. And if you have a few minutes, leave a comment, leave a review.

33:17Jenna Gaudio: that helps Trapital reach the right people. It helps the algorithm do its thing as well. And make sure you're following us on Apple or Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your podcast. Thanks again. Talk to you next time.