718a Pastas You Should Know; In Sardinia; Gelato

22:15But that's just a tiny section. And so the beauty is, if you're looking for the resorts and the developed hotels and the five-star hotels and the famous movie stars, you can find it.

22:27Rick Steves:What I find fascinating about Sardinia is that we think an island would be all about the sea and seafood and fishing and so on. But until the middle of the 20th century, if I understand correctly, the island was oriented towards the interior because historically they were threatened by pirates, and until the 1950s, malaria was a problem. So you have this wicked sea that brings all these risks, and people would be looking to the interior, and it really was a community and a culture of shepherds and sheep, wasn't it? Yeah, you know, the pastoral culture really was It was very much the identity of the Sardinian, I'd say, up until this century.

23:09Of course, you had the coastal communities that emerged into the cities themselves. But 80 % really, Rick, of the island is either considered hill or mountains. And so you have that, not just a pastoral culture, but people who reside within a hill culture, very connected to nature, very much connected to the food and a completely different culture. The city of Nuoro, for example, which is considered the capital of this mountain region, and the mountain region is named after Barbagia, as in the ancient Romans reference to the barbarians. This Barbagia region is incredibly diverse itself. You go from mountain town to mountain town, and you find all sorts of festivals, all sorts of literary traditions, music tradition, dance traditions.

23:56You know, Grazia De Leda, who was the first Italian woman to win the Nobel laureate for literature, actually came from Norel. And she kind of represented this incredible literary movement that came out of the mountains that very much represented Sardinia on the global level.

24:12Rick Steves:Jeff, this is a travel show, and we've got all sorts of people dreaming of turning their travel dreams into a smooth and affordable reality. and I am too because I've never been to Sardinia and I would imagine you would take a ferry from the mainland over to the Cagliari, the capital and the port, the big port on the island and then would you rent a car and explore the island or what would be the best way to get around and then let's pretend we have four days to visit Sardinia from the mainland. Can you just kind of lay out what we might do? Okay, so let's just start with our beloved Augero. You arrive in the airport in Augero and you have your first night there.

24:48walking along the bastion walls and looking out at this beautiful promontory called Capocaccia. It's really one of the most beautiful, lovely bays I've ever seen in the Mediterranean.

25:00Rick Steves:I've got to give you more time. I'm sorry. Let's take six days, okay? This just sounds too good. We're going to stretch this to a whole month. And in the morning, you're going to have a fabulous breakfast with a special yogurt that comes from Sardinia that's a little thicker. And then you're actually going to get in the car that you've rented and go just a few miles towards Saucity, which is another beautiful city in the north. It's only about a half an hour from Alghero. It had the first university. And before you get to Saucity, you're going to stop at the only ziggurat in all of Europe. It's a 6 ,000-year-old pyramid that you find only back in the Middle East, and it's called Montecote.

25:39Rick Steves:Holy cow, a ziggurat. That's one of those step pyramids, isn't it, where you've got, like, different floors? Exactly. It's literally as if it's come out of the ancient Middle East. And this is the only one that exists in all of Europe. It's just one of the most stunning places for me. I used to go there often in the evenings and just sit often alone at the top of the pyramid. You know, we've been in places, of course, like Guatemala and Mexico and many other places that have pyramids. But to find this in Europe that's 6 ,000 years old, they even found a whale tooth in one of the tombs, talks once again about this incredible nexus of exchange of cultures that date thousands of years ago.

26:16So now we've got to get back in our car. We're going to go to Saucity, which is a really lively city. Reminds me of a small Dublin in many respects, a university town. And there we'll begin to see some of the amazing art at the National Art Gallery. There were several artists who've come out, including a man named Cusa, who has really won the Venice Biennale with his sculpture and his paintings. And all this you can see at some of the art galleries.

26:41Rick Steves:By the way, this is Travel with Rick Steves. We're talking with Jeff Biggers, and his book is called In Sardinia, An Unexpected Journey in Italy. And it reads like a novel, but it's also sort of a guidebook in disguise. I'd like to have my time on the beach, Jeff, and I don't need to see a lot of beaches. Take me to one beach, And what I would like to do is kind of get a sense of what's the beach scene like. And that's a whole culture of Italy. What would you do there? Well, let's take you down to the southwestern coast, which would be a beautiful drive. They call it the Green Coast. And there you have these ancient mining villages that now are abandoned but have left behind these beautiful ruins and these incredibly rugged beaches.

27:23And they're one of the most beautiful beaches. And let me tell you, Rick, it's really dangerous to say on radio what the best beach would be because it's like picking your favorite wine, you know. And I'll hear tomorrow from hundreds of people who say, no, no, this is the best beach. But there's a beach called the Pachinas, the pools. And this is where some of the largest sand dunes in all of the Mediterranean exist, at least up to 200 feet of sand dunes, 300 feet. And there it's a rugged beach. There's beautiful hotels and agiturismo that are nearby. but you're either able to be together with people on a beach scene, nature lovers, or take a little stroll down the beach, which goes on for kilometers, and have basically a piece of paradise all to yourself.

28:06Rick Steves:And Jeff, is this part of the Emerald Coast? No, this would be down, they call it the Green Coast, the Costa Verde. And this is the southwestern part. And it's really one of the most overlooked places I find in Sardinia that often people kind of leave it out because it's not on one of the major routes. And it's really one of some of those spectacular beaches that you can reach fairly simply within an hour or two. This is Travel with Rick Steves. We've been talking with Jeff Biggers, and his book is In Sardinia, An Unexpected Journey in Italy. Jeff, let's close it out just with a comment about the personality of the people, because that seemed to be a common thread throughout your book.

28:47Rick Steves:They've had a tough past. There's sort of an intensity and seriousness about the people, and you wrote about it so warmly. Give us just a little vignette about the people you might meet if you do a good job of getting away from the tourism and meeting the real salt-of-the-earth Sardinians. Sure. You know, what I find is that the Sardinians truly welcome travelers, and they always have. In fact, there's even a village that has a festival for foreigners every year. You know, Rick, this is what Charles Dickens said. is he said, every Sardinian is a natural-born poet. And I found that to be true, that you would meet people.

29:22And the first thing they would do, of course, is offer you something to drink, offer you something to eat. But then they suddenly were pulling out their books they wanted to show you, and books of poetry, and books of history. And then they would start pulling you out photo albums and whatnot. And they really wanted to introduce you to who they were and their distinct variant of their language or their cultures or their traditional dress or what have you, especially their literature. And I felt like this is what I found throughout the whole island, that I'm on this island of stories and this island of storytellers, and that my role as a travel writer was not to basically write my impressions but to collect these stories, almost like a story collector, like you would with songs, because so many people were so anxious to speak about where they came from and really what set them apart.

30:10You know, that fabulous diversity that you talked about really becomes clear because you do go from the coastal cities that have had much more of an influence of outsiders to the interior who have been allowed to create their own cultural traditions. And everybody is very much open to discussing this in whatever language that they can manage to communicate with you and tell you about it.

30:33Rick Steves:That sounds like the best souvenir from a Sardinian experience. Oh, you truly take home a story with you. And I think this is the Sardinia blues, the mal di Sardinia that the writer Marcello Serra was writing about, is that you go and you have these experiences and then you go home and you just keep thinking about these incredible stories and these incredible people and you want to go back. Jeff Biggers, thanks for writing in Sardinia, and thanks for taking a few minutes to introduce us who know so little about Sardinia, an island filled with people who have a story to share and people who would love to share that story.

31:10Rick Steves:Thanks again, Jeff. Thank you. It's a real honor to be on your program.

31:28Rick Steves:Jeff Biggers tells us where to enjoy the pastoral culture and cuisine of Sardinian shepherds. He also recommends a centuries-old festival of beauty and tells us how the ancient polyphonic songs of the tenor define the island. It's in a web extra with this week's show at ricksteves.com slash radio. Guides from Italy take your calls next at 877-333-RICK as they tell us what to look for to find the very best gelato. By email, we're at radio at ricksteves.com. Warning, the following segment just might stimulate your appetite. Hi, I'm Rick Steves. When I see tour groups marching around under the midday sun in Italy, I always enjoy watching for that moment in their schedule when their guide takes them for a little time out from museums and historical sites to visit the neighborhood gelateria.

32:21Rick Steves:That's Italy's version of the corner ice cream parlor. The satisfied look on their faces as they dig into their gelatos, it says it all. The Italians have been perfecting the art of frozen desserts for centuries. We're joined now by Alfio Di Maro. He's a lifelong resident of Sicily, and Anna Piperotto. She's an American scholar of Italian art whose passion for Italy led her to settle in Tuscany. They're here to make sure you're enjoying the tastiest gelato in town, too. Anna, Alfio, ciao. Ciao a tutti. Ciao, buongiorno. Buongiorno, I'm dreaming about gelato. How can you say that in Italian? Sto sognando di gelato.

33:01I'm dreaming about gelato.

33:04Rick Steves:Desidero un gelato. I desire gelato. I do. Just tell me, Alfio, your favorite gelateria and the favorite flavor and what kind of memories it inspires. Well, memories of gelato, they go back to when I was a toddler. My favorite gelato is coffee. and there's a favorite gelateria I have and they make a special gelato because the secret of Italian gelato is to keep it simple, fresh ingredients and it's made daily. Sometimes we think that gelato stays for days and days and days but actually it's good only for a couple of days and then it becomes too hard. So you know that if you go to your gelateria and they're trying to give you three day old gelato, you can tell?

33:50Rick Steves:Actually, if your gelateria has gelato all the time, three days, it's not a good gelateria. Because actually in the summer they have the opposite problem. They cannot make gelato fast enough. In the region where I come from, which is Sicilia, it's a very, very long tradition. We are, I think, experts of water-based gelato, and especially its ancestor, which is called granita. Granita. Yes, something that you know as a slushy. What do you mean, water-based as opposed to dairy? Correct. Something that happened in Sicily since the Romans is the fact that they used to mix in summer fruit juice with the snow from the mountains.

34:37Rick Steves:Sicily has a lot of mountains like the rest of Italy, so there's plenty of snow, and they used to mix. So even back in Roman times? Oh, yeah. Obviously, no electricity, no refrigerators. They would go up into the mountains, collect the snow, bring it down, mix fruit. Yes, actually they were preserving the snow in caves and that let them providing snow in summer as well. Plus Sicily had a lot of salt harvest and if you put salt with ice the temperature would drop and they were also preserving that. Your favorite gelato flavor is coffee. Does that have caffeine in it? Oh yes, it's made with real coffee.

35:11Rick Steves:You get a caffeine hit and that's why you were such a busy toddler. Correct. Okay. Anna, tell me about your favorite, and you're from Siena. Tell me about your favorite gelateria in Siena and what your thoughts are on the best flavor and some memories that it inspires. Well, my absolute all-time favorite flavor is pistacchio, pistachio, which I get every time with some other flavor. It doesn't matter what flavor, but always pistacchio as the base. That's how I judge a good gelateria. And my favorite gelateria in Siena is probably the smallest one. I think the best gelateria in general are the small ones without the bells and whistles, no frills.

35:45Very small containers, freshly made gelato. And my favorite time is to go towards the end of the day when I know they're just about to make one last batch and I wait for it to come out of the machine and they just put the cup right under it and give it to me fresh.

35:59Rick Steves:So this freshness is something. I mean, I don't think the typical American considers fresh when it comes to ice cream or gelato. but you're actually hanging around until the next batch. Yes. Yes. There are over 37 ,000 gelaterie in Italy, apparently, I read this, but all of them are fresh. And as Alfio says, if there is leftover gelato and they're trying to serve it to you the next day, bad gelaterie, do not go there. Would they serve different flavors at different seasons, actually? Yes, depending on, and actually they're closed in the winter season as well. So a lot of the best places are also closed because people don't, I don't know what these people are, but some people don't like to eat gelato when it's cold outside.

36:34Okay.

36:34Rick Steves:But in the summer, what's an example of when you would find one flavor and not another flavor? Well, all of the fruit gelato, for example, all of the fruit you have in the summer, like peach or mulberry. Fresh strawberries. And your smile just has strawberry gelato written all over it. And the bonus in Sicily is that gelateria are open all year. In Sicily. Not in Siena. Count on Alfio to be a walking promotion for this beautiful island. So let's get down to basics here. I mean, because Americans say ice cream. Ice cream and gelato, what's the difference physically? The big differences are the amount of air, milk versus cream, and the temperature it's served at.

37:13So gelato is served a few degrees warmer than ice cream. Ice cream has a lot more air in it, up to 50 % more air, and when you have the air, you get ice crystals forming, so it can be crunchier but also fluffier, whereas gelato is much denser and creamier, even though they use milk and not cream.

37:30Rick Steves:That's sort of counterintuitive. So they use the lighter version of milk, and it is denser and more flavorful. And way healthier. It's good for you. And healthier. Another difference is that ice cream has more sugar. Yes. And in fact, it has more calories, even if it has more air in it. So why order ice cream? Correct. In fact, what kills me as an Italian is when I see gelateria that also advertise they sell ice cream. In Italy? Yes. Oh, you're kidding. Because we're trying to get the English-speaking tourists, but these two words should never be used together, not synonyms at all. Let it be known right here on Travel with Rick Steves that gelato is different than ice cream.

38:12Rick Steves:This is Travel with Rick Steves. We're talking with Anna Piperato and Alfio DeMauro, and our phone number is 877-333-7425, and Chris is on the line from Chula Vista in California. Chris, thanks for calling. My pleasure. Well, I'm getting hungry just listening to this conversation. Me too. My question is, I've tried to replicate the flavors and the creaminess of gelato here in the States, but I haven't been successful. I wonder if you could point me towards some recipes that will enable me to enjoy that wonderful experience stateside. Well, I would recommend that you enroll in a four-week course at the Gelato University outside of Bologna.

38:54They have courses in English.

38:56Rick Steves:A four-week course on gelato, the fine art of gelato. Do they have scholarships? They should. Chris, the problem is that the technology for the gelato is a little tricky. The freezing part is what probably is where you are going to have some problems. Why? The deliver of the low temperature should happen in such a short time because a normal refrigerator at home, in the freezer, it doesn't have that power. So basically what it means is that the longer it takes to form the crystals, the bigger they will be. And that is about gelato. Okay? The faster you can froze, the better the quality because the crystal will be imperceptible in your tongue.

39:46Rick Steves:Okay? So that's why you cannot get good gelato at home because you don't have the equipment to do it. So the texture is a fundamental thing about gelato because it is like almost sexy. Yes, absolutely. That's the right word. That's the right word. I mean, I was just thinking there's no other word. Yeah, because you cannot feel the ice particle. You drag your tongue over it. What about ingredients? Because Italy is all about ingredients. It's all about ingredients. You know, we were mentioning about favorite flavors. Of course, when I was a boy, I was not into coffee. That happens later. But what is special is that they always start from scratch, from the fruit of the season.

40:25Rick Steves:So the best thing you can do if you are in the right gelateria, you get, I don't know, pear, gelato, apple, peach, mulberry, watermelon. Sounds like I should book my trip to Bologna next time. I think you should. And then to Sicily. Thank you. Happy travel. Happy gelato licking. Tour guides Anna Piperato from Tuscany and Alfeo Di Morrow from Sicily are opening our palettes to the pleasures of really good gelato in Italy right now on Travel with Rick Steves. Our phone number is 877-333-7425, and Elinda's calling in from Deerfield Beach in Florida. Elinda, do you have any gelato dreams to share?

41:06Well, yes. I had a few questions. First question I have was sort of related to what was asked by the last caller, How come gelato is so much better in Italy than at the places in the United States where I've had it? My second question was just where's the best place for gelato in Rome is, if there's a thought on that. And then my third question was I noticed that everyone seemed to be eating Nutella. They seemed to be so popular, and my favorite is actually Nutella, the hazelnut.

41:36Rick Steves:Nutella. So I wanted to have answers to a bunch of questions. All right, Elinda, thanks for the call. Well, and first of all, Nutella is a flavor I encounter a lot. Nutella. That's hazelnut. Hazelnut, correct. And Nutella is this children's chocolate sort of peanut butter. Yeah, which is made with hazelnut, also. And that's why I ask about that Nutella because it just didn't sound appealing to me at all. Is there Nutella gelato? Yes. There are some flavors. Is that a gimmick or is that a good flavor, would you say? It's good flavor. If you like that. But it's a little too rich, a little too creamy.

42:08But Nutella is at least an Italian product from Piemonte.

42:13Rick Steves:It's a huge hit around here. But if you wanted, you could have chocolate and Nutella, two flavors. Nutella, which is much nicer. There you go, because that's essentially what Nutella is. Or you can get baccio. Baccio is the flavor that is made with chocolate and hazelnut. That means kiss, doesn't it? It means kiss, correct. Because there's a famous chocolate that's called baccio that lovers exchange. There you go. So if you want Nutella, you're not limited to the word Nutella. You can go down the basics. Absolutely. How do you know the best place to go in a city like Romont? Now, I will tell you how to search for the good gelato.

42:46Rick Steves:When I lead tours, I warn tour members to stay away from this humongous hills of gelato that you see on the main streets in Rome and Florence. The natural gelato, the original, the authentic, genuine, cannot stand that position. The gelato, to be that tall over the container, must be pumped in fat. And that is not natural gelato. We're getting closer to the ice cream we were talking before. In order for it to be exposed to the air. Because from an advertising point of view, you see a mountain of purple and green and brown. Well, just imagine, when I'm at Fahrenheit, you are in June in Rome, and you see that it's like seeing an oasis on a desert.

43:29Rick Steves:So you go there. You think you're getting a real thing, but it's not. Okay, so that's just to catch your eyes. And the color also is... Correct. So what about the color? Well, when you see bright blue gelato that's piled this high and it's Smurf flavored, you should stay away from it. So you want natural colors, you want it not stacked high, but even low with a lid on it. Correct. I see a lot of places that have a lid on it. When you see pistachio or pistachio, which is bright green, you run opposite directions from it. Yes. What I always say to people is in nature, bright color are usually a sign of danger.

44:04Except for strawberries. The strawberry gelato can be quite bright if it's very, very fresh.

44:08Rick Steves:Okay, that's good to know that exception. Mint is never green. Mint is white. Mint is white. Yes, absolutely. So shape of gelato, flat, possibly covered with a lead, color. And then you can see if a gelato was freshly made or not. Because the freshly made, as you were talking before, it looks smooth and inviting. and very soft. I find that the young generation of local people know where the good gelato is. And every year, there's a different place that has the long line, especially in the evening. Is that a good sign if you see the kids lining up, or is that just because it's a popular place? It usually is a good sign.

44:46Rick Steves:Okay. But something that I think everybody should be aware of between, you know, difference between the lifestyle in U.S., lifestyle in Italy, U.S. has big brands. and all of those big brands, you can find all of them everywhere you go from east to west coast. Italy instead, we have so many little gelatria, they're family-run. It's not a chain. You need to live there a little bit and somehow become local, and then you will have this universe that opens in front of you to find all of the favorite spots. Yeah. Now, we're talking about family, mom-and-pops, and everything, but what I see in all over Europe popping up like Starbucks on the main corner is Grom, G-R-O-M.

45:29Grom, I have a love-hate relationship with Grom because I'm very happy that this company was started by some 20-somethings from Turin, which is where I lived for almost two years. And they wanted to get back to the original way of producing gelato because the founder of the slow food movement, which is from Pimonte, said gelato is just not what it used to be. So these young entrepreneurs, they decided to make gelato the way it used to be made. and their flagship store is in Turin right by the main train station. They have another one. There's one in New York City. There's one in Paris. There's one in Tokyo.

45:59But if I couldn't defend them, they have their own farm in Piemonte and they grow all their own fruits and they make their own flavors and they send out three times a week these flavors to their shops all over Italy.

46:11Rick Steves:So has bigness hurt their ethic? No, it has not yet. But you mentioned they're in Tokyo. So you're saying if you want to get good Italian gelato outside of Italy, you should go to Grom. Is that what you're suggesting? It's a good compromise. Yes. It's a good compromise between a franchising and a good quality product. Yes. There's one in New York City a bit closer. So, and another question Elinda had was why is it better in Italy? Is it possible to find good? Is it just a matter of having the gear and the ingredients? Well, what you need to do is just getting the right ingredients first and then the right technology.

46:46Rick Steves:All right. And then you have to have a certain consumption and you keep it fresh. Elinda, thanks so much for your call, and happy gelato eating. Bye now. I'm looking forward to gelato three times a day as they recommend it. Absolutely. Sounds good to me. Happy travels, Elinda. Thank you. This is Travel with Rick Steves. We're talking about gelato with Anna Piperotto and Alfio Di Moro, two friends and tour guides from Italy. Stephanie emailed us from Boston, and Stephanie writes, can people with a lactose intolerance eat gelato without having stomach problems? Good question. What about lactose-free or non-dairy options?

47:19Rick Steves:Oh, absolutely. You have plenty of choice of fruit gelato, which usually are water-based. So that means they have no dairy of any... Is that the same as sorbet? Yes. Sorbet is a word that comes from sherbet. So in America, I think we say sherbet in French, sorbet. In Italy, what? Sorbetto. Sorbetto. Sorbetto. Actually, technically, you should call the water-based gelato sorbetto. We could talk forever about gelato, but just share one moment of how everything is right. Everything comes together. You're in the right place at the right time with the right gelato. Anna. Well, I guess as not being a native Italian speaker, the first time I was able to properly order a pistacchio with, of course, my favorite fragola next to it and pay in lira.

48:07That was a fantastic moment in Florence when I was a student all those years ago.

48:11Rick Steves:To get the gelato you want. To order it in Italian as well. Oh, man. I can remember sitting on the porch of the Pantheon just savoring what I've just experienced with my cone of gelato. I can remember doing the passeggiata with the gelato and Sorrento. Oh, are you a cup or a cone guy? This is quite important, isn't it? Yeah, it is important. Well, I'm a cup guy. I'm a cup guy, girl, whatever. All equal here. Because you get the question at the gelateria, is it a cup or cono, right? Yes. Copa, cono? Copa or cono. There's a really funny anecdote about the World's Fair in St. Louis in 1904 when there were gelato stands and there were waffle stands.

48:48And the ice cream maker, basically, he ran out of cups. And so the waffle guy said, here, why don't I roll my waffle and you can use it as a cornucopia? It was a Syrian-American immigrant and that turned into the cone.

49:01Rick Steves:But I'm still a cup person. I'm still a cup person, too, because it doesn't detract from the flavor of the pistachio. And you can take all the time you want and not be stressed out about catching those nibbles. Exactly. It's true. Maybe that's part of relaxing is not to worry about the dribbles. Well, the only difference is that usually Italians prefer a cono because you can eat a cono with one hand and you can do a hand gesture with the other. Oh, that's if you're Italian. If you're Italian, you have to do that. You cannot. And that means Italians, they have some speech impediment if they cannot move their hands like I'm doing right now.

49:29Rick Steves:So that's why you can be a con kind of guy. But also there's a third option, which is the gelato in a bun, a brioche it is called. And this, when we were kids, this was lunch in summer days. Oh, my goodness. So you have a sweet pan, you open it in half, and you put three scoops of gelato in it and whipped cream on top. And it's the best lunch I remember when I was a kid. Can I add one more thing? Yeah. Sometimes you see gelato makers that they roll their eyes because American tourists ask too much. There are certain flavors you don't match together. and certainly one of those is very acidic flavors like limone, lemon, with chocolate or nuts in general.

50:15Or, as my mom says, I'm on holiday, I can do what I like. So just look apologetic and do your research and keep doing it.

50:23Rick Steves:But at least now you know why people roll their eyes. Why they roll their eyes. Thank you very much and bon appetito. Buon gelato. Travel with Rick Steves is produced by Tim Tatton, Kaz Muralhall, and Donna Bardsley at Rick Steves Europe in Edmonds, Washington. Affiliate relations are by Sheila Gerzoff. Website uploads are by Andrew Wakeling and Sherry Court. Our theme music is by Jerry Frank. Thanks to Iowa Public Radio and Iowa City for their help this week. You'll find more at ricksteves.com slash radio. We'll see you next week with more Travel with Rick Steves. Hey, I'm Rick Steves. Thanks for listening.

51:03Rick Steves:In our online travel store, you can choose from 80 different Rick Steves guidebooks covering just about every country, region, and major city in Europe, as well as books on history, art, Italian food, cruising, and festivals, plus phrasebooks and planning maps. You'll find my favorite bag, the one I designed and I live out of for 100 days a year, and a selection of other custom-designed bags, backpacks and wheeled bags, big and small, plus a selection of accessories that experienced travelers won't leave home without. It's all at ricksteves.com.