In short
Episode 756a covers two main travel themes: “resurrecting Roman rubble” in Rome and a visit to Plovdiv, Bulgaria, plus listener travel reports from lesser-known places. Guest 1 is Philip Barlag, a “Rome nerd” and author of The History of Rome in Twelve Buildings, The Leadership Genius of Julius Caesar, and Evil Roman Emperors.
Key claims
ancient ruins can be humanized by stacking buildings chronologically and imagining what people inside them were doing; Rome’s appearance was once garishly painted; many monuments were dismantled for reuse (marble kilns), leaving missing pieces; even “graffiti” survives as evidence of everyday life.
Notable examples
Via Sacra processions with generals’ feasts; Arch of Septimius Severus with deliberate removal of Geta’s imagery; Pantheon doors reused in San Giovanni in Laterano; Temple of Romulus in the Forum; medieval “cow field” ruins inspiring Edward Gibbon. Guest 2 is Stefan Bozajew (Luba Tours), a Bulgarian guide and tourism board member.
Key claims
Plovdiv is Bulgaria’s cultural capital and one of the oldest continually inhabited cities (pottery from ~6000 BC); its old town blends Greek, Roman, and Ottoman layers; Kapana is a graffiti “open-air gallery” supported by the government. Examples: the 2nd-century Roman theatre discovered in the 1970s; the Alyosha Soviet soldier monument; Shopska salad (white cow cheese, green cucumber, red tomato) and rakia traditions.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOExploring Roman Ruins
0:56 to 2:24
Discussion on the fascination with ancient Roman architecture and the quest to understand their significance.
“Have you thought about the Roman Empire yet today?”
Resurrecting the Rubble
2:24 to 4:36
Philip Barlag shares insights on how to bring ancient Roman ruins to life and understand their historical context.
“So enjoy is an interesting word because I have to confess something.”
Life in Ancient Rome
4:36 to 7:30
Exploration of the daily life and experiences of citizens during the height of the Roman Empire.
“And when you wander through the Bands of Caracalla, you can almost see it, but you need a little help, don't you?”
The Via Sacra Experience
7:30 to 10:10
Imagining the vibrant life and ceremonies on the Via Sacra during ancient Roman times.
“Philip, in your book you wrote, Nothing Has a Need for Curation Like a Trip to Rome.”
The Stories of Monuments
10:10 to 12:48
Discussion on the significance of monuments in Rome and their hidden stories, showcasing personal stories connected to them.
“Well, I think what you would first notice is what's missing.”
Upcoming Travel Reports
12:48 to 13:12
Preview of upcoming listener travel reports on lesser-known places.
“and with the help of a book that curated, it gives us some context.”
Introduction to Plovdiv
13:12 to 14:00
Rick Steves introduces Plovdiv as a significant cultural capital of Bulgaria with a rich history.
“We'll get travel reports from fellow listeners in a bit on lesser-known places they've visited or are preparing to go to that you might enjoy exploring also.”
Exploring Plovdiv: A Historical Overview
14:00 to 18:40
Learn about Plovdiv's historical significance and cultural identity.
“It's Bulgaria's charming second city, and it claims to be one of the oldest inhabited cities in the world.”
Plovdiv's Vibrant Social Scene
18:40 to 21:00
Discover the lively atmosphere and social interactions in Plovdiv.
“and he's never stopped, even after completing a law degree.”
Architectural Heritage of Plovdiv
21:00 to 23:00
Understand the unique architectural styles found in Plovdiv's old town.
“People there are friendly and they can invite you to drink together beer or coffee or just to enjoy meal.”
Show all 19 chapters
Post-Communist Bulgaria: Reflection and Change
23:00 to 24:50
Explore Bulgaria's journey since the fall of communism and its current status.
“you know, 40 years or so after the fall of communism.”
Culinary Delights of Bulgaria
24:50 to 26:40
Learn about the traditional Bulgarian dishes and their cultural significance.
“Stefan Bozicev is the lead guide for Luba Tours in Sofia, Bulgaria.”
Drinking Culture in Bulgaria
26:40 to 28:00
Get insights into Bulgarian drinking customs and traditional toasts.
“It is our Bulgarian cow milk white cheese.”
Toasting in Bulgaria with Rakia
28:00 to 31:06
Learn how to enjoy traditional drinks and toasts in Bulgaria.
“And this is the type of drink that goes best with the Shopska salad that I've just mentioned.”
Reflections on Bulgaria's Progress
31:06 to 31:51
Explore the changes in Bulgaria over the past decades and the hope for the future.
“I look forward to a day when I can sit with you and sip that Rocky right on that beautiful boulevard in that beautiful city of Plovdiv.”
Listener Travel Stories and Tips
31:51 to 42:04
Hear travel tips and personal stories from listeners about their experiences.
“Or you can email us directly at radio at ricksteves.com.”
Exploring Off the Beaten Path in Europe
42:04 to 45:22
Learn how to avoid crowds and discover hidden gems in Europe.
“guidebooks have about regions and maybe, you know, things to think about in those regions.”
Relocating to Portugal: A Family's Journey
45:22 to 48:22
Hear Jennifer's experience moving her family to Portugal and its impact.
“And Jennifer's calling in from Rockwell in Texas.”
The Transformative Power of Travel for Children
48:22 to 50:24
Discover how travel shapes children's perspectives and friendships.
“And the beautiful old homes that date back to the 1600s, 1700s, you know, are kind of dotted throughout the ocean, the lining of the ocean, you know, up the Atlantic.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Rick Steves:If you visit Rome with Philip Barlag, be prepared to make a lot of stops. He might be tempted to investigate nearly every pile of stones you come across for evidence of the ancient Roman Empire. If I see four ancient bricks stacked on top of each other, I feel this compelling, deep urge to know what were those things. What was the building that was there? Why was it built? Coming up, he tells us how he resurrects Roman rubble. There's an ancient Roman amphitheater that's still in use in Bulgaria. It's a concert venue in its second-largest city, which could just be the oldest city in all of Europe.
0:35The people of Plovdiv believe that they're the elite of the nation, and they have so many rights to say that.
0:42Rick Steves:A Bulgarian guide lets us in on why they're so proud of their cultural capital, Plovdiv. And listeners bring us travel reports from lesser-known places that you might enjoy seeing as well. Come along for a few surprise destinations in the hour ahead. It's travel with Rick Steves. Have you thought about the Roman Empire yet today? We'll look at what its architecture tells us about living there 2 ,000 years ago. There's a city in Bulgaria that's even older than Rome or Athens, and in just a bit, we'll learn about Plovdiv, the cultural capital of Bulgaria, with evidence dating it back 8 ,000 years.
1:20Rick Steves:My favorite Bulgarian guide tells us how it's a fashionable destination today that you'll probably really like. And listeners share tips from their own travels to lesser-known places that did not disappoint in being delightful. When Philip Barleg first stepped off the train in Rome, he saw a 2 ,000-year-old wall. Wandering through the remains of the ancient city with its temples, aqueducts, and arenas, his fascination grew, and he's since become a self-described Rome nerd. All that curiosity turned into a book. It's called The History of Rome in Twelve Buildings, which is not really a guidebook, but a companion guide to reveal the hidden stories of the eternal city.
2:01Rick Steves:Philip joins us now on Travel with Rick Steves to discuss how to bring that rubble to life, how to resurrect the ruins of the city which, in its prime 2 ,000 years ago, meant not the city but the entire civilized world. Philip, thanks for being here. Rick, thank you so much for having me. So I enjoyed so much reading through your book and clearly it's written by a Roman nerd. What's with this nerdiness approach that you have to Rome. How did that happen? And how have you enjoyed that? So enjoy is an interesting word because I have to confess something. Being in Rome is almost a form of torture for me.
2:36And that's because every time I see, if you said, you mentioned knock the dust off the monuments. If I see four ancient bricks stacked on top of each other, I feel this compelling, deep urge to know what were those things. What was the building that was there? Why was it built? And so that quest to have to know, to understand where I am, what I'm seeing, you ask a lot of questions, you answer some of them, you learn more, you keep going. And being in Rome for me has always been just the next question, finding the next answer, putting it all together.
3:07Rick Steves:When it comes to the challenge of what I call resurrecting the rubble, what are some of your tricks to help us humanize what happened so long ago? I think knowing who the people that built the buildings, what they were trying to accomplish, what was happening inside of Rome at the time, and stack those chronologically with one another so that the cumulative effect of looking at a small handful in the thousands of interesting buildings in Rome gives you a real sense for how to put these things together in space, where they sit on a chronology, where they sit on a timeline. So much of history can be inaccessible because it's so rich and complicated.
3:43And I feel like knowing some of the shortcuts to that narrative, that history, really helps people enhance their experience for visiting the city. And that's what I was aiming to do.
3:52Rick Steves:You know, I think it's easy to underestimate what ancient people were capable of. Because you stand there and you look at the Basilica Maxentius, and it's like it's a wall, a ruined wall on the edge of a football field. and you're looking at this thing and it's got a few big arches and then you see little broken nubs on the top of that and you realize, holy cow, that is just one wall. Those huge niches were side niches and if you look at the nubs, you can extend them all the way across that football field of the size of a vacant lot and then you pave it with beautifully cut marble and fountains and elegant people.
4:30Rick Steves:It's just hard to get your brain around it. I know you feature the Bands of Caracalla in your book. And when you wander through the Bands of Caracalla, you can almost see it, but you need a little help, don't you? You need a little help. You get to squint, and that's what's great about finding places where there's just enough intact from the ancient world to help you remember what the rest of it looked like. That's the Pantheon for me. You go in the Pantheon, you look at the floor, and then you realize every building looked like this. It's like, this is as beautiful as it is. It stands out because of its uniqueness in the modern era.
5:01And the ancient Roman world was full of buildings that were beautified in their own way, but they're just – they were everywhere. And the whole city looked like that. And so at one time, it's very romantic to have that vision. And then the other, there's a sense of sadness for not being able to experience it or at least maybe that's where my nerdiness comes out.
5:22Rick Steves:Well, there was – I have to always remind myself that there were centuries of time when people had no luxury of appreciating history or art. All they wanted to do was get a roof over their head and feed their kids. And for centuries, I just learned this last year, they had kilns set up on the sites of the greatest buildings of ancient Rome. And for centuries, they would break up the marble, feed it into that kiln, and turn it into material that could be used for some crude kind of concrete and mortar to build buildings in the Middle Ages. And these kilns, they literally chewed up and munched up and dissolved ancient Rome.
5:58Rick Steves:And today it's built into medieval buildings that we don't hardly pay attention to. And it leaves the puzzle with a lot of missing pieces, doesn't it? It does. It also is where the term the Eternal City gets its name because that is actually as tragic as it is to us. This is a continuation of a longstanding Roman tradition. The ancient Romans pillaged even older, even more ancient buildings for building materials as well. And so it is a – think of graffiti in the same way. If you go to Rome and you see the graffiti on these ancient monuments, your modern sensibilities, it's offensive. But then you remember, ah, so much of what we know from ancient Rome comes from surviving graffiti that someone etched on a wall in a building that got buried and excavated 2 ,000 years later.
6:42And now we know about how much people charge for bread or wine or other services available, widely available in the ancient world. And so it is heartbreaking, but it is also the continuation of a longstanding Roman tradition.
6:55Rick Steves:Yeah, that's how history unfolds. Philip Barlag hosts a podcast called The Greats of History. His affinity for the Roman Empire shows in the books he's written. Right now on Travel with Rick Steves, we're looking at what he's uncovered in The History of Rome in 12 Buildings, a travel companion to the hidden secrets of the eternal city. Philip's also written The Leadership Genius of Julius Caesar, Modern Lessons from the Man Who Built an Empire. His latest title is Evil Roman Emperors, the shocking history of ancient Rome's most wicked rulers, from Caligula to Nero and more. His website is philipbarlag.com.
7:33Rick Steves:Philip, in your book you wrote, Nothing Has a Need for Curation Like a Trip to Rome. Be our guide right now and our curator. I'm standing on the Via Sacra. This is that common... The Roman form is the common grounds where the people, the tribes that lived on the seven hills around that got together and traded, and that was the spark, the way I understand it, that lit the flame of Rome 700 years before Christ. And from that little community grew this empire. It lasted for 1 ,000 years. Standing on Via Sacra at the height of the Roman Empire in the first 200 years after Christ, what would you feel?
8:10Rick Steves:How can you help us know what it's like to stand there during a procession surrounded by all of these towering marble buildings? We think of them as white, but they were garishly painted. and you have all sorts of action going on. How can you bring that to life for us? Help us. Soldiers, armed soldiers, were not allowed in ancient Rome. They were expressly prohibited. There was one exception, is that the Senate, the governing body, granted a conquering general a ceremonial parade. In that case, he could bring his troops through this city and he would march his enemies in front of him as trophies of war.
8:43If he'd killed his enemies, they would put up floats with their effigies so that the citizens could still boo the image of the vanquished foe. And the general, to prove their success, their prowess, and to demonstrate their largesse, would throw big feasts and toss treats to the crowd. And they would host banquets and feasts all over the city. They would set up tables right there in the forum and invite on the dime, so to speak, of the generals. So you imagine that you're a poor everyday Roman, a rank-and-file citizen just living subsistence. And some general has gone off and they've conquered a foe and now they have you have civic pride and you're attending this parade and you're standing on the Via Sacra and the chariot goes by and you've never seen a Roman legionary in their full regalia.
9:30And you get to throw and you cheer and you get to feast and drink and party and you're all toasting that one conquering general who, by the way, has someone whispering in their ear the whole procession down the Via Sacra, remember thou art mortal. Remember thou art mortal. To remind them not to let this go to their head because this is a transient example. And that all went right down the Via Sacra in the concluding moments of that march through the city.
10:01Rick Steves:And then the parade's over and you come back the next morning with your son or your daughter and you stand in front of the Arch of Septimius Severus. Yes. And you interpret some of the propaganda on that arch to teach your child what the story is. What would you see in that propaganda? Well, I think what you would first notice is what's missing. There are some big chunks taken out of the Arch of Septimius Severus. And unlike a lot of ancient monuments, it's not decay or degradation over the years. It was a deliberate act. Septimius Severus had two sons, Caracalla and Geta, and they hated each other and they fought and they feuded.
10:35And when their dad died, they went to war with one another. And after Caracalla eventually wins, by the way, having Geta murdered in the arms of their mother and then prohibiting her from showing any public mourning over his death, lest he kill her too, he damned the memory of his younger brother. And part of that is to excise any imagery of the damned. And so when you see the big chunks taken out of the Arch of Septimius Severus, what you're looking at is where Geta would have been when his dad built the monument before the brothers decided to try to kill one another.
11:10Rick Steves:And apart from all these grand triumphal arches and all these grand temples, you've got little intimate glimpses at life. You've got doors still swinging on the same hinges that they've swung on for 2 ,000 years. Is that right? Yes. The Pantheon is the most notable example. Some of the doors that were cast in ancient Rome have been repurposed into more modern buildings like San Giovanni on Laterano. In the forum, there's, I think, a very moving little temple, the temple of Romulus. Romulus was the son of Maxentius, the one that Constantine defeated in a civil war to claim sole possession of the Roman Empire.
11:47Maxentius had a son whom he loved and adored, and he named him Romulus. And Romulus died at a young age. and this small temple is erected in the Forum and it has the original doors and you remember that in the giant big titans of Roman history, Constantine unquestionably being one, there are lesser known figures who each had their own lives, their own stories. They had made their mark. Their names exist more as an afterthought, the Temple of Romulus being one.
12:13Rick Steves:It's so romantic to me that for centuries, pilgrims and historians and just thoughtful people have sat and looked at the rubble of Rome and been inspired by it long after those emperors were gone. I love the thought that it was pretty much buried and it was a cow field. It was literally called the cow field, wasn't it, for generations. And then Edward Gibbon looked at it and he was inspired. He wrote The Rise and Fall of Rome. And to this day, romantic pilgrims and travelers and seekers can sit there on a little chunk of ancient Rome and with the help of a book that curated, it gives us some context.
12:52Rick Steves:They can get more out of that visit. Philip, thanks for writing Rome in 12 Buildings, and thanks for sharing with us a little glimpse at how to resurrect the rubble of ancient Rome. Rick, thanks for having me, and hopefully the next time, we're raising an espresso together in Rome. Beautiful idea. Ciao.
13:12Rick Steves:We'll get travel reports from fellow listeners in a bit on lesser-known places they've visited or are preparing to go to that you might enjoy exploring also. But first, prepare to be pleasantly surprised by a truly ancient cultural capital of Bulgaria, Plovdiv. It's Travel with Rick Steves. When it comes to both underappreciated and surprising destinations in Europe, Bulgaria just might be at the top of my list. Bound on one side by the Danube River, that's up in the north, and the Black Sea on the east, Bulgaria's location is at the intersection of civilizations through history, and that gives it a vibrant cultural heritage.
13:50Rick Steves:And while the modern capital city of Sofia is certainly worth a visit, if you have time for just one city in Bulgaria, I'd say it's got to be Plovdiv, P-L-O-V-D-I-V. Plovdiv. It's Bulgaria's charming second city, and it claims to be one of the oldest inhabited cities in the world. It's a fascinating place to explore, and it's just flat-out easy to enjoy. To take us on a tour, I'm joined by a Bulgarian tour guide who I've known for many years, is a good friend of mine in Bulgaria helps me whenever I'm on a mission in Bulgaria, Stefan Bozajew. Stefan, thanks for joining us. Thank you for your kind invitation, Rick.
14:28Rick Steves:Dobroden. And Dobroden, that's one of the few Bulgarian words I know, that means good day. Is that right? That's right. Dobroden. Hey, tell us, where is Plovdiv and how big is it? And just introduce us to the city. Well, when you look at the map of Bulgaria, Boliv is in the very middle of the country. It's just a little bit more than an hour drive from the capital to the east from our capital, from Sofia. It's our second largest city with a population around 360 ,000 people, a lot of young people there, a number of universities, but most importantly, known as the cultural capital of Bulgaria. Now, you said it's a one-hour drive from Sofia, so that means if you fly into the big airport in Sofia, you could just go directly to Plovdiv.
15:19Rick Steves:I've been many times through Bulgaria, and there's a wonderful train connection that cuts right through the country if you're heading east to Istanbul, and it laces Plovdiv and Sofia together. And it's known as one of the oldest continually inhabited cities in the world. How do we know that, and what would we see from those days? Well, it's not only in the books, but it is based on what was discovered during different archaeological digs. Mostly, we have discovered different pottery from around 6000 BC. And this was in the very heart of the city, in three of the hills dominating the landscape there.
16:00This is how we know where life started and when it started. Wow. Today, most of it is in the local archaeological museum.
16:10Rick Steves:And then, of course, history does not stop with that. That's just kicking things off. And you've got ancient Greek civilization, ancient Roman, and then Ottoman civilization from the east. How would we see these influence in the city today? I'll never forget walking through downtown pedestrian zone of Povdiv, and you've got an ancient theater that sort of worked into the cityscape. Well, the remnants of these civilizations are to be seen all around the city. You walk in the old town among beautiful mansions of rich merchants from the 1800s and just around the corner, it's the 2nd century Roman theatre which has been discovered just in the 1970s.
16:53And then we'll have the remains of the walls from the Greek period so from 4th and 3rd century BC, and all of this is blended together into one beautiful architectural mix.
17:08Rick Steves:Nice. You know, it's like, to me, Sofia is the New York City or the Chicago of Bulgaria, and Plovdiv is more like the Boston or the San Francisco. It's not so mighty, but I think it's easier to enjoy in a lot of ways. And I love how in Bulgaria people have regional jokes I know that the little town of Gobrovo is the butt of a lot of jokes in the way we would have, you know, the Swedes would joke about Norwegians or whatever. How do the people of Sofia look at Plovdiv? And how do the people of Plovdiv look at Sofia? And how do the people of Bulgaria look at Plovdiv? Well, definitely the people of Plovdiv, they believe that they're the elite of the nation.
17:51And they have so many rights to say that. They believe that they are the aristocracy. The old history lays there. The old factories that moved Bulgaria into modern times were established there. And the people in Sofia, they just have their fast-paced life. And sometimes they're envied the people of Plovdiv. Why? Because the people in Plovdiv, they're very typical to say the term, Bicha, I lack, or simply enjoying my time. Dolce farniente.
18:26Rick Steves:Yeah, that's sort of that Italian love of life in Plovdiv. Bulgarian guide Stefan Bozicev is our guest right now on Travel with Rick Steves as we explore the Bulgarian city of Plovdiv, P-L-O-V-D-I-V. Stefan has been guiding since he was a teenager, and he's never stopped, even after completing a law degree. He serves on numerous tourism-related boards in his hometown of Sofia and has a passion for helping visitors understand Bulgaria. He was my sidekick, who essentially co-starred in my public television episode on Bulgaria a few years ago, and you can follow Stefan on Facebook. He's at Down the Road with Stefan, and that's Stefan with an F.
19:06Rick Steves:You know, over the years, I've had a lot of friends who are Peace Corps workers who have worked in Bulgaria, and they've told me that the girls in Plovdiv are famously beautiful, and they also tell me that statistically, a Peace Corps worker is more likely to meet a local and fall in love in Bulgaria than anywhere else on the planet. Have you heard of that? Well, definitely there's truth about here because when you stop in the middle of the main pedestrian track of Povodiv simply to enjoy a cup of coffee and enjoy the life, you see so many beautiful women, and actually they're all dressed up because for them it's a matter of pride to show their elegance there.
19:48so definitely I cannot blame all the volunteers from the Peace Corps.
19:54Rick Steves:You know, I've sat on the same boulevard. It's just an amazing boulevard and it's like a fashion parade. You can sip your coffee there and men and women strutting their stuff. In the old days, I remember during communism, it was dark and huddled and people gathered quietly in the park to talk sports and politics. Today, there's a sort of a boisterousness a love of life, a colorful celebration of good living. Tell us a little bit just about the scene, the energy. Where would you find people talking? What would they be talking about? How can a tourist connect with a local? Well, one of the best spots to do that is one tiny neighborhood called Capana or the Trap neighborhood.
20:40It's a trendy place with a number of small cafes and restaurants and gelaterias and everything. And it is so tiny and so packed. So it's this old European vibe that you are sitting at a table of a stranger. And in the end, this person is not a stranger anymore. People there are friendly and they can invite you to drink together beer or coffee or just to enjoy meal. So that's the place, Kapana neighborhood.
21:15Rick Steves:Kapana, K-A-P-A-N-A, famous for its graffiti, right? The government subsidizes the graffiti and it's like artwork on the walls. Correct. That's one of the best places in the city where you can see all those beautiful murals on the walls because for years and years we have a problem with ugly tagging on the walls and graffiti and the local government, they decided that the best way to fight off the graffiti is simply to invite the best of the public artists to create art on the walls. And that's why now it's like an open air gallery. Stefan, I'll never forget when I was in Plovdiv, just getting lost in the hill with all of the old architecture and the cobbled lanes, these beautiful, elegant, old, I believe they were Ottoman buildings.
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22:07Rick Steves:Tell us about the characteristic architecture in the old town of Plovdiv. Well, most of the buildings in the old town of Plovdiv, they were built in the very late 1700s till mid-1800s. Those were the houses of the rich people. So beautiful architecture, symmetrical houses painted in different colors, yellow, blue, red, whatever. Two or three floors, but all of them behind mighty stone walls, just in order to have protection for their own safety and for the safety of their wealth. And if you're hiking around on that hill with all the old towns, you get to the top of a hill, and you're likely to find a monument that recalls the communist days.
22:57Rick Steves:Tell us about the heritage for Bulgarians today, you know, 40 years or so after the fall of communism. Well, in Bulgaria, we are still dealing with the heritage of our communist part. We are still not 100 % sure what to do. In the recent years, they've opened a small number of museums dedicated to the art of this period. But if you want to see it in the real environment, you can go to one of the hills in Plovdiv to see there the Alyosha monument, a monument dedicated to the Soviet soldier built in the 1950s, a monument that still dominates the cityscape of our second largest city. You know, Bulgaria was a very loyal subject of Moscow.
23:49Rick Steves:During the darkest times of communism, they joked that Bulgaria was like the one extra republic in the Soviet Union. Why do you think that was? We were definitely very loyal ally of the Soviet Union. Why? Because definitely we exploited the system. We would have the best prices for raw materials, for gas, petrol, steel, whatever. And at the same time we would have markets for our own production here. So our politicians, they were smart. It was not only about political loyalty. It was also about benefits from being friends. And then how is that today? Do you still have smart politicians that are clever at working with the capitalist world and the European Union?
24:43At the moment, Bulgaria is a member of NATO. Bulgaria is a member of the European Union, and the Bulgarian governments have followed for the last 20-something years the traditions of the Western civilization, of the European civilization, and we are loyal partners and allies of the North Atlantic organization.
25:08Rick Steves:Stefan Bozicev is the lead guide for Luba Tours in Sofia, Bulgaria. He's introducing us to Bulgaria's second city, the cultural capital of Plovdiv, right now on Travel with Rick Steves in an interview from our show archives. Staffan's been called Bulgaria's best tour guide for his knowledge and passion for his country, and I can vouch for that. His company offers tours of Bulgaria and the Western Balkans and is planning guided excursions into the stands of Central Asia along the Silk Road, plus Armenia and Georgia. Their website is lubatours.com, spelled L-Y-U-B-A. So it's interesting because Bulgaria is a place where you'll see minarets from the Ottoman age, and Bulgaria is where east meets west.
25:53Rick Steves:But I have a sense that even with all of its eastern heritage, Bulgaria really has an interest in looking west. It's a place where cultures come together, and it comes together in a lot of ways. You can see it in the architecture, and you can also see it in the food. Tell us when we're going to Bulgaria, what food we should look for. Definitely you will find a lot of fresh salads. And on the top of the Yerikov salads is the very famous Shopska salad, S-H-O-P-S-K-A. This is a salad that shows everything typical for the Bulgarian cuisine. Tomatoes, cucumbers, and cheese on top of it. And, of course, a few secret ingredients that you can...
26:40I was waiting for that. It's not feta cheese. It is our Bulgarian cow milk white cheese. Together, they symbolize the Bulgarian flag. Beautiful salad. How does it symbolize the flag again? The cheese is white. The cucumbers, they're green. And the tomatoes, they're red. So we have the colors of the Bulgarian flat presented in the salad.
27:08Rick Steves:All right. And then also, I'm always remembering stuffed peppers when I'm in Bulgaria. Oh, yes. Definitely, we have different types of stuffed peppers. Two of them are my favorite. The first one is with rice and meat baked in the oven. And the second one is heaven for vegetarians. So these are roasted peppers, peeled and then stuffed with cheese and eggs, then deep fried. Amazing with some yogurt on the side. Now, if I'm in Plovdiv and I've just had a beautiful dinner and I'm ready to go out and stop by a bar or a cafe and have a drink, what would be a typical drink that people of Plovdiv would like to have as they're watching the parade of people?
27:56Rekia is the best one. Rakia is our national drink, typically made from grapes or plums. And this is the type of drink that goes best with the Shopska salad that I've just mentioned.
28:10Rick Steves:So tell me how you drink. I mean, I really like when I'm in a country to know how you drink, not just what you drink, but how you drink. And then how you wish somebody well with a toast. Can you help me be a good drinker of Rakia in Bulgaria? Absolutely. What you should do in order to be a temporary loco, you order your Shopska salad and a glass of rakija. And while you're waiting for the salad, the rakija arrives. Then you don't drink it at once. You just sip it because it is very strong. But before starting sipping, you should look at your friend's eyes and say, Na zdrave! Good health! Na zdrave!
28:54Na zdrave!
28:56Rick Steves:All right.
29:00Rick Steves:So, Stefan, I've been going to Bulgaria ever since I was in my first visit. I think I was a student. And I've seen hard times in Bulgaria, and I've seen frustrating times and dark times. And now I feel like we're seeing good times. If you and I were sitting together on that beautiful pedestrian boulevard in the most beautiful city in Bulgaria, sipping our rakia, How would you feel about where your country has gone in the last couple of decades? And what kind of hope do you have for the future? I will definitely see the progress. All those hard steps that we have taken, but we have taken them into the right direction, into the direction to belonging of the European Union, of NATO, enjoying the safety that we have gained in these troubled times.
29:49And although that we have hard days, it seems that we are definitely on the right path. And simply, I would enjoy all the gains of democracy.
30:04Rick Steves:Is there a dynamic in your country where there's a threat to democracy now? Or do people see they've tasted democracy? They've known the dictatorships and the communism of the past. What is the appetite politically for the people in Bulgaria these days? Of course, as every single modern society, there are some divisions in our society. There are still people who are very nostalgic about the old days of the communism, about even the dictator, about the safety of the times. But at the same time, all those young people who had the chance to travel around the world, They've seen the benefits of the modern democracies.
30:47And that's why now I can easily say that we have a strong civil society, that even if there are some crooked politicians trying to divert us from the right way, we'll be ready to stand up and defend what is right.
31:04Rick Steves:Stefan Bozadev, thank you so much for joining us. I look forward to a day when I can sit with you and sip that Rocky right on that beautiful boulevard in that beautiful city of Plovdiv. Na zdrave! Na zdrave, Rick!
31:35Rick Steves:You'll find web links to our guests each week at ricksteves.com slash radio. That's where you can see how Stefan Bozajew spells his last name. Up next, we're opening up a segment to you, our listeners. Tell us what's delighted you in your recent travels. We're at 877-333-7425. Or you can email us directly at radio at ricksteves.com. With all the talk of how crowded the main sites of Europe have gotten lately, with visitors from all over the world, have you been enjoying travels to any places that are off the main tourist path. Let's check in with our listeners right now who've ridden us lately at radio at ricksteves.com to hear where you recommend visiting or where you're looking to go next.
32:21Rick Steves:Judith is on the line from Atlanta. Hey, Judith. Hi, Rick. Thank you for taking my call. Where have you been, and what do you want to talk about? Well, I was in England about a year ago this time, and I was staying in Canterbury, and I had various things on my list of things I wanted to see, and one was Sissinghurst Garden. I tried to figure out public transportation on a Sunday afternoon, and I finally asked the hotel for an option, and they gave me the name of a private driver. And so I hired this gentleman to drive me to the garden where I enjoyed this. It just blended tulips in bloom, and it had just rained that morning.
33:12Everything looked just fresh and dewy. Basically, there were very few people there wandering through the gardens, and I was able to go into the living quarters where Vida, Sackville West, and her husband lived in this. It's a pretty old place, but very cozy, and you could feel the times. It was back in the 40s, I think, 30s and 40s. And he arranged to pick me up. I told him I thought I'd be there a couple of hours. He came back, picked me up after I had seen pretty much everything I wanted to see. and he just took me back through all these little villages and little narrow roads with the hedges that are stone.
34:09I love it. It was just, it was a delightful afternoon.
34:15Rick Steves:I'm not even that into gardens, Judith, and when I'm in England, when I stumble onto gardens, I take a special look. It's just the English love their gardens and they love to share them, don't they? Yes, they do. And it just was a really special visit and a special memory. I think about it a lot. I took lots of pictures, so that is part of the memory, too. One thing I would recommend for people is to remember you can hire a taxi in small-town countryside, like in the countryside of England, by the hour, and you just talk to them and see if they've got an hourly rate. or you can just take a taxi from point to point and then find another taxi when you're ready to go on.
34:58Rick Steves:If you wanted to save money, you probably could have let the taxi, the car go at Sissinghurst and spend a couple hours there and then find a driver from there onward. And if you do it by the hour, you can say, why don't you take me the long way? Show me, take me through the villages. And you can get a sort of a small, and it's usually a guided tour because cabbies love to talk, you know? Right, right. Right, and this gentleman did too. That's the fun of travel. Hey, Judah, thanks so much for calling. Oh, thank you, Rick. Happy travels. I enjoyed it. Take care. Bye now. Bye. Jerry's calling in right now, and Jerry's calling from Mountain View, California.
35:36Rick Steves:Jerry, thanks for the call. Hi, Rick. Hey, where have you been traveling lately, and what stories do you have? So my wife and I will be visiting Belgium and France this fall, first for a couple nights in Bruges, then on to Normandy for about a week, where one of our bases will be on Fleur, which you recommended in one of your travel books. Now, I'm hopelessly forever fascinated by all things World War II. My wife, not so much, but she indulges me. And we've decided so far on touring Omaha Beach and both the American and German cemeteries. My question is, what would you recommend as the other must-see D-Day and Battle Normandy sites to you over two days?
36:18Rick Steves:You know what I would do? Two things. First of all, there's a whole cottage industry of English expats that are World War II buffs that live and work in Normandy. And what they do is they take either private tours or minibus tours around. and there are so many great little personal labors of love, personal passions of the people who are these World War II buffs that have their own museum. And I find that they're competitive and they're creative and they're intimate and they're really a fun dimension of experiencing the whole World War II history and D-Day landings and so on in Normandy. So book a private guide for a half a day or even a whole day.
37:00Rick Steves:That would be one thing. The other thing is the town of Cannes, C-A-E-N, has something called the Memorial Museum. You've probably heard about it if you've been studying for your trip. And when I went to Cannes, I thought, this is where wives like yours, who have no interest in World War II and are just going along because they love you, this is where they're thankful they're there. It shows a very personal side, the impact on families. It takes the glory out of war and just gives you a sense of what was going on and how did it impact communities and what can we learn from it? It's a very experiential memorial.
37:40Will we be taking a walking tour or visit a museum or both?
37:45Rick Steves:In Cannes, it is just a big memorial slash museum. And it's the major site in Cannes. Cannes is kind of an industrial town that was featured in the whole Normandy World War II thing. But this memorial, it's like the regional museum in my mind, and it is capped by a very powerful pro-peace kind of memorial as anybody who suffers through a war would be inclined to be pro-peace, I think. So the two things I'd recommend for you is the private guided tour, and private can be expensive with your own private guide or much less expensive as one of eight travelers on a minibus that would leave on floor or wherever you're staying.
38:23Rick Steves:So you can Google that. Guidebooks will explain it. We certainly have it in our France guidebook. And everybody's going to go to Auro Manche, Everybody's going to go to the American cemetery. Not everybody's going to go to the German military cemetery, but at La Comba. But I'm so glad you're going there because there's another side of the coin there. And this was at the end of the war when Germany was down to the dredges of who could go to the front line and die. Dredges is a terrible choice of words. It was just the kids. It was old people and kids because that's all they had left. And if you look at this memorial, you think of the heartbreak of that, of these kids that were sent to the battlefront when Germany was basically already losing.
39:02Rick Steves:It's a powerful experience. Don't miss Bayeux while you're in the area. And Bayeux is thought-provoking to me because Bayeux is famous for a different Normandy invasion, and that was from Normandy to England in the Battle of Hastings from 1066, a thousand years ago. And it just lets you know that that body of water between France and England has kept warring tribes apart for a long time, and when they do cross that body of water, it's quite a historical spectacle. Sherry, thanks for your call, and I hope that gives you some ideas. You does, Rick. Thank you so much. Take care and let us know how it goes.
39:38Rick Steves:Happy travels. Okay. Thanks, Rick. We're checking in with a few of our Travel with Rick Steves listeners right now at 877-333-RICK. We're getting ideas for traveling away from the maddening crowds of the major tourist sites and enjoying a little serendipity in surprising places. Let us know how your travels are going and share any tips you think other listeners might want to know. Our email address is radio at ricksteves.com. Barrett's on the line from Dallas in Texas. Hey, Barrett. Hi, Rick. How are you? I'm doing fine. What traveling have you been doing lately, and what's on your mind? I wanted to maybe just talk a little bit about just the joys of small-town Europe.
40:19I know that's something that you're passionate about. I'm sure many of your listeners are as well, but maybe a couple of small vignettes to relay. One was a beautiful long lunch that we had in Greve in Chianti, sort of central Tuscany, where we had it in someone's home. A small village, probably maybe 500 people to the village, but someone was running a restaurant essentially out of their home that overlooked their vineyard and kind of their own wine production. We had a wonderful time last year in Aldous, and in Franconia in Germany, and also got to stay in some small villages in those parts of Europe.
41:02So we just highly commend, you know, the small town charms, especially if you can find places that are off the beaten path that let you use some of your language skills and, you know, maybe make some new friends as well.
41:15Rick Steves:So, Barrett, you mentioned Chianti. Did you say Alsace in France? Yes. And Franconia in Germany. And those are three great words. Chianti, Alsace, Franconia, three wonderful countries, Italy, France, and Germany, and three opportunities not to be in a famous big city with lots of tourists, but to be exploring the rural area, people who don't see tourists a lot, and to celebrate their culture, what they're excited about, to have a restaurant surrounded by vineyards in Chianti. And in Alsace, you could find the same thing, and in Franconia. The wine is a common denominator for all those places. Absolutely.
41:51And sometimes we get people that ask when we come home, you know, how did we find these places? And I would generally say what I love to do is sort of overlay, you know, all of the sort of great, you know, information that guidebooks have about regions and maybe, you know, things to think about in those regions. So for example, in Franconia, you know, started as Würzburg, that's sort of the starting point to think about, you know, some of the great sites that are there, and then found a little village outside of that where we could find accommodation. And as you said, enjoyed some beautiful white wine, have a well-known for their silver and a grape in that part of Germany, and just learned a lot, little Lutheran village.
42:33So I think it's just kind of coupling, you know, information you may find and what kind of piqued your curiosity in some of those places to see.
42:41Rick Steves:Barrett, I'm so glad you called because this is really important. People come back from Europe these days, and one thing that's happening is they complain about the crowds. Well, where did they go? They went where everybody went. Now you're talking, let's just stick with Chianti, Alsace, and Franconia. Okay, you go to Chianti, and I believe Siena would be a big city nearby that you'd want to stay in, and that's going to be crowded. It's going to be great. It's going to be expensive. And then you have that little ad-lib countryside experience. You're in Alsace. You'll want to be in Colmar. That's the most exciting town from a touristic point of view.
43:13Rick Steves:It'll be crowded. It'll be expensive. And then you go into the countryside. And you go to Franconia, and you do your thing and you see the residents and the beautiful palaces and so on in Würzburg, and then you get into the countryside. That's where you leave the crowds. That's where you find much more affordable food and accommodations. And most importantly, that's where you can just have that sort of serendipity time and you are kind of venturing beyond where the guidebooks go. And I can say as a guidebook writer, I think more people should do that. Yeah, I might just say, you know, a couple of maybe practical tips.
43:49So I, you know, love sort of just wondering on Google Maps and finding out, you know, where are my little dots on the map that I didn't know that existed. Another great just kind of local tip. And of course, you know, apps change, but using local apps like WhatsApp or other kind of texting apps where, you know, you can make up for some of your language deficiencies if you put those to Google Translate. But many times if you're making reservations in some of these smaller areas, you really need to kind of find a way to sort of get to them and they may not have a website. But then you know you're really on to something.
44:23If it has local reviews and you can get to them through a text message, which was the case in Chianti where it was just an individual. His name was Alberto, and this was his home restaurant and his own prosciutto, his own homemade wine, homemade olive oil. And we were there for just a beautiful four-hour lunch experience.
44:43Rick Steves:Again, you can't write a guidebook for that. You go to a town that has no tourism, you meet Alberto, and you enjoy his beautiful food. I mean, you can do that in any of these places. And I really think that there are these little nondescript guest houses and B &Bs that they've just missed the crush of modern tourism. And you have a very special time as the American traveler who stumbled into that little nondescript village that's, you know, an hour away from Würzburg or an hour away from Siena or an hour away from Colmar. Absolutely. Well, Barrett, thanks for your call. Thanks, Rick. Take care.
45:22Rick Steves:And Jennifer's calling in from Rockwell in Texas. Yeah, thank you. How are you? I'm doing great. Where have you been traveling lately? Well, we have been traveling quite a bit, and one of the things that I wanted to share was our move more than our travel. We moved our family of five to Portugal in 2013, and I would love to just encourage any family who is even remotely considering doing that, to not give up on your dream and do it because it was probably one of the best decisions we've ever made as a family of five, which is not easy to move. What a wonderful testimony. This is really fascinating.
46:07Rick Steves:So you've got, what, a family of five, three kids. Three daughters, yes. And this was 10 years ago or something? Yes, we moved in 2013. And how long did you stay there? We were there for two years. We lived in Qashqai. I know you know where that is. Oh, yeah. And outside of Lisbon, yeah. And my husband and I were both teachers back then, so we were teachers at an international school outside of Lisbon. Okay. And how old were your children then? They were 15, 11, and 5. So just a great age to pick them all up and move them back. Wow. And from a parenting point of view, it was worth the trouble.
46:51Rick Steves:It was worth the headaches and the expense. Yes, everything. And, you know, just our change in lifestyle. We're Texans. So you know how Texans live their life. And it was a great change in lifestyle. It was an amazing eye-opening opportunity for our whole family. How was life in Texas and Portugal different? Well, I mean, just the size of our home, you know, we went from about 3 ,000 square feet to about 990 square feet. Wow. And it was great. I mean, I can't say that we really, we missed that. We didn't miss the caretaking. I know my husband didn't miss mowing a big lawn and, you know, learning how to shop, grocery shop.
47:34We made mistakes with that. We would go and buy, you know, meat for the whole week. And then by Wednesday, you realize you've got to throw half of it away.
47:44Rick Steves:Now, that's interesting. Yeah, their food is just so much better than, you know, what we put in our meat in America. And if you were going to stop by a little pastry shop on the way home, what would your kids like? A pastel de nata. I was just checking, the pastel de nata. You're a good mom. So let's just take a moment, Jennifer, and think about a warm pastel de nata coming out of the air. Yeah. Take me back to Portugal. We're going to run the whole thing right now. So you were in Qashqash. That was kind of like the aristocratic resort outside of Lisbon 100 years ago, right? Yes. And the beautiful old homes that date back to the 1600s, 1700s, you know, are kind of dotted throughout the ocean, the lining of the ocean, you know, up the Atlantic.
48:34towards like Sintra going that way. You know, some of them are open for tours and some of them are closed off, but it is a very upscale community. But at the same time, you have average families living there, going about their daily life. And that's what we ended up doing.
48:56Rick Steves:Jennifer, do you ever fantasize about what would happen if every person in Texas had a chance to have that experience? Yes, and I'd do it all over again myself. But I think for my children, especially if I really reflect on them, the friendships they made. We had students from every continent except Antarctica. And the friendships they made and, you know, what they were able to understand about all the diverse cultures. We had diverse religions at our school. You know, being able to understand that, I think it's really set a course for their lives. And I've seen that, like how adventurous they are studying abroad.
49:37My oldest works in government. You know, I mean, just the way that their lives have worked out.
49:43Rick Steves:Think about the parenting value of that, Jennifer. Any of us who have been parents, our parents are who will be parents. You know, we have an opportunity to introduce our kids to the world in a way where they celebrate diversity. Right. And that's what you did. And not be fearful of it. That's what you did. Yeah, absolutely. You have made my day with your call. This is so nice to hear. Well, best wishes, and give my best wishes to your entire family, and I hope that your children, who are no longer children, that they use this as a springboard to be enthusiastic about the world, and I hope I'm happier when they're home.
50:24Absolutely.
50:24Rick Steves:Okay, take care, Jennifer. All right. Thank you. Thank you so much. Bye-bye.
50:56Rick Steves:See you next week with more Travel with Rick Steves. Monday night travel. It's a weekly travel party, and you're invited. Zoom in and have some fun learning about Europe's art, history, culture, and food over drinks and snacks. It's free, it's an adventure, and be careful, it can be addictive. Join me and my travel buddies over Zoom for Monday night travel. We're live every week, starting at 6 p.m. Pacific time, 9 p.m. Eastern. Register at ricksteves.com and BYOB.
From the publisher
A self-described "Rome nerd" helps us picture what it was like to live in the Roman Empire and explains how much we can learn about the era from its now 2,000-year-old rubble. Then a tour guide from Bulgaria sings the praises of its cultural capital, Plovdiv — one of the oldest cities in Europe, possibly in the whole world. And listeners share serendipitous stories from their European travels.
For more information on Travel with Rick Steves - including episode descriptions, program archives and related details - visit www.ricksteves.com.