In short
France “north vs. south” cultural contrasts; regional stereotypes (people, fashion, accents, sports); French food/desserts; then Paris street-history stories; then Loire Valley “chateau country” itinerary and history.
Guests (backgrounds)
- Grégoire Bouron: French guide living outside Paris; specializes in helping Americans tour France.
- Chris Coleman: Minnesota native; lives and guides in southern France (spent time in Montpellier); specializes in guiding Americans.
- Veronique Savoy: French guide living in Tours (Loire Valley); offers custom tours and online French lessons (francewithvero.com).
- Susan Cahill: author of Hidden Gardens of Paris, Sacred Paris, and The Streets of Paris; explores famous Parisians via walking tours.
- Danielle Ferrenau: Loire Valley guide living near the Loire; helps visitors plan chateau visits.
Key claims + notable examples
- North: more formal “shell,” more rain words (déluge, hondée, giboulée, crachin, brune); “brown” cuisine (galettes, butter, choucroute).
- South: more open “peacocks,” brighter colors, more “tu”/bisous; Mistral wind folklore (blows in threes; “ears off a donkey” excuse).
- Dessert examples: clafoutis; tropézienne (Saint-Tropez); chocolatine vs pain au chocolat.
- Paris: street names reveal history; cobblestones tied to revolutions; Montmartre as bohemian “malcontents”; Belleville back streets behind Notre-Dame-la-Croix.
- Loire: Renaissance aristocratic hunting; key chateaux: Chenonceau (“Lady’s Chateau” tied to Catherine Brissonnet, Diane de Poitiers, Catherine de’ Medici, Louise); Chambord (Francis I; double-helix stairway attributed to Leonardo’s design); plus Tours, Langeais, Amboise, troglodyte homes, wine caves, and mushroom caves (champignonière).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOTouring France: North vs. South
0:55 to 2:09
Learn about the distinct features and attractions of northern and southern France.
“Year after year, the visitor numbers tell us that France remains the most popular country in the world for vacationers.”
Meet the Guides
2:09 to 2:52
Get introduced to expert guides who will share insights about France.
“He's a French guide who lives outside of Paris.”
Differences in Perceptions
2:52 to 3:38
Discover how people perceive cultural differences between the north and south.
“What is it to you that North is different from the South?”
Cultural Juxtapositions
3:38 to 4:25
Hear a story about contrasting personalities in a Burgundy hotel.
“And I think one of the best examples of that, the difference in cultures, is there's a hotel we used to stay at in Burgundy, and the hotel owner's a couple.”
Defining Borders: North and South
4:25 to 5:49
Understand how the Loire Valley acts as a cultural border in France.
“I walked into the courtyard with my group.”
Understanding Rain in France
5:49 to 7:02
Learn about the different types of rain and their cultural significance.
“And when I think of the south, we have this as tourists and travelers, you know, the quote, south of France.”
Folklore of the Mistral Wind
7:02 to 8:35
Explore the cultural impact of the powerful Mistral wind in southern France.
“Tell us a few of these and the fine distinctions between the different rains that you describe.”
Cuisine Differences: North vs. South
8:35 to 9:48
Contrast the culinary specialties of northern and southern France.
“And even in medieval times, you know, you could say, oh, I killed my wife because the wind made me do it.”
Regional Desserts and Sweets
9:48 to 11:44
Discover regional desserts and the cultural differences in naming them.
“up in the north of the Choucroute in Alsace also.”
Travel Tips for Dessert Lovers
11:44 to 13:12
Get practical advice on enjoying local desserts across different regions.
“But chocolatine will put you in great mood, too.”
Show all 19 chapters
Fashion and Stereotypes in France
14:00 to 18:08
Explore the evolving fashion styles and stereotypes between northern and southern France.
“I think you have people who really put a lot of thought into how they look in Paris, and then you have people who look a lot sloppier even in Paris.”
Cultural Differences in France
18:08 to 23:29
Discuss the cultural and social differences between northern and southern France.
“But, I mean, once in a while in Paris, you might see it.”
Concluding Thoughts on French Regions
23:29 to 23:40
Tour guides share final insights on the unique personalities of northern and southern France.
“This has been a fascinating conversation.”
The Stories Behind Parisian Streets
24:09 to 28:00
Unearth the historical significance and stories behind the streets of Paris.
“on the very same cobblestones where you'll find yourself strolling today.”
Exploring Montmartre and Hidden Paris
28:00 to 30:59
Learn about the cultural significance of Montmartre and off-the-beaten-path streets in Paris.
“And you go to the butcher, not just to get your meat, but to find out what's going on over here.”
Journey Through the Loire Valley Chateaux
31:00 to 42:00
Discover the beauty and history of the Loire Valley and its magnificent chateaux.
“Susan Cahill is the author of The Streets of Paris, a guide to the city of light following in the footsteps of famous Parisians throughout history.”
Exploring the Loire Valley's Charm
42:00 to 45:44
Learn about the unique architecture and stone used in the Loire Valley villages.
“and protected from the wild beast and so on.”
Real Experiences in the Loire Valley
45:44 to 47:52
Discover firsthand accounts of travelers exploring the Loire Valley's backroads.
“We're talking about the wonders of the Loire Valley.”
Relaxing Experiences in the Loire Valley
47:52 to 50:06
Find out how to enjoy a restful visit in the Loire Valley, including local attractions.
“This is Travel with Rick Steves, and we've been speaking with Danielle Ferrenau about the Chateau Country of France.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Rick Steves:I've found it's often true that the warmer and sunnier the climate, the more animated are many of the people you'll meet. Traveling from north to the south of France provides plenty of interesting examples. They're like coconuts. You have to go through that hard shell to find the milk inside, the softness. People in northern France are like that. While along the Mediterranean... People are beautiful and they know it and they show it off. To me, they're more like peacocks. Coming up, we get coached on what to expect in France from north to south. We'll also look behind the street signs in Paris that tell us of the famous people who once lived there.
0:36Rick Steves:And there would be one name after another that I'd recognize, but not really know the details. And tour the lavish palaces of the Loire Valley, including one they call the Ladies' Chateau. From the beginning, it has been always the property of fantastic ladies. Let's go to France for the hour ahead. It's travel with Rick Steves.
1:00Rick Steves:Year after year, the visitor numbers tell us that France remains the most popular country in the world for vacationers. Coming up today on Travel with Rick Steves, we'll look at a few of the reasons why. We'll get recommendations for touring the elegant chateau country of the Loire Valley, and we'll track down the stories of famous Parisians as we walk the streets of Paris. Let's start out comparing what you might expect to find as you travel between the north and the south of France. It's easy to think of French culture as a monolith, but the cuisine, traditions, and customs, what we think of as the Frenchness, can vary dramatically from region to region.
1:38Rick Steves:In the north, there's Paris with its iconic landmarks, the dramatic beaches of Normandy, and the cozy villages of Brittany. In the south, we've got the Mediterranean sun beating down on the glamorous Riviera, rustic Provence, and the Spanish-flavored Pyrenees. And today, I've gathered a few of my favorite French guides to playfully pit the rugged and charming North against the more relaxed and breezy South in a duel where there are no winners or losers because it's all la belle France, the beautiful France. Representing the North, we've got Grégoire Bouron. He's a French guide who lives outside of Paris.
2:13Rick Steves:Defending the South is Chris Coleman, who hails from Minnesota originally, but lives and guides in the South. And then our neutral party to keep things civil is French guide Veronique Savoy, who lives on the dividing line between the north and the south, the Loire Valley. Grégoire, Chris, Veronique, are you ready? We are. Sure. Oui. Welcome. It's so fun to have you here, and I'm looking forward to learning a little bit about France that I didn't know. So to start out, I'd like just to hear from you guys where you live, your perception of how the north and the south in France are different, and maybe why you've chosen to live in the north or the south.
2:51Rick Steves:Grégoire, first of all, you're up in the north. What is it to you that North is different from the South? For me, the difference between the North and the South, it's about the people. It's a little bit different. The North people are more formal. You really have to show who you are, that you can gain their trust. And for me, the South people are more open, like more Italians. They're more easygoing. Okay. And Chris, how do you know the South? So I lived in Montpellier numerous times in my life as a student and my working life as well. So I lived with a host family a couple times, and I hail from a northern climate.
3:28So living in a southern culture was quite an interesting shock.
3:31Rick Steves:Now you heard Gregoire's assessment of the personality difference of the north and south. How does your opinion relate to that? I agree with that, actually. And I think one of the best examples of that, the difference in cultures, is there's a hotel we used to stay at in Burgundy, and the hotel owner's a couple. The woman was from Burgundy, and the man was from Nice. And the woman from Burgundy was very formal, would dress to the nines. And that would be more northern. Yeah, very northern and a little bit more stiff and would always use vous, the formal you, with me in handshakes. Very polite, but very stiff.
4:06Her husband, however, was very quick to jump into tu, using the informal you, and bisous, the kisses, the kisses that you would give to your friends and family, very quickly. So it was a very strange juxtaposition between the two of them. And it took forever for the woman to finally give me kisses and use tu, the informal you with me. And I remember the day it happened. I walked into the courtyard with my group. And there she was on the courtyard steps looking at me with this huge smile. She gives me the bisous, the kisses. And I earned also a glass of crement, which is the sparkling wine in Burgundy.
4:40And I don't know what I did to deserve it. But suddenly I transformed from, you know, this formal relationship with her that was what she was used to to this informal. But I don't know what I did. Bravo.
4:50Rick Steves:I don't know what you did either, but that's pretty good. Veronique, you live on the Loire Valley, which is, if you have a weather report in France, then I think they're going to say if it's in the north, it'll be north of the Loire. And if it's south, the weather will be this way, south of the Loire. Chris just talked about Burgundy being more northern, but it's not as northern to me as Normandy or Alsace. How do you divide north and south from your perspective on the Loire? I'd say it really depends on whom you ask. Because if a person in Provence, you tell them that Bordeaux, for example, is in the south, they'll start going.
5:26Rick Steves:But Bordeaux is on the border of Spain. Bordeaux is, you know, the southwest already. They'll say, no, the south is Provence. It's the Riviera. So I think it really depends. But traditionally, they say the Loire is pretty much the border. Or a line that goes from maybe La Rochelle, which is a town on the coast, all the way to Lyon. There is that line that kind of divides. So Lyon is not the south, but it's the beginning of the south. Okay. Yeah. And when I think of the south, we have this as tourists and travelers, you know, the quote, south of France. That would really be, I think, the Dordogne.
6:01Rick Steves:That would be the Côte d 'Azur. There are many different types of... Provence. Le Sud is many different regions. So there's many different regions. Yes, absolutely. Our guides to France right now on Travel with Rick Steves have each navigated living in France and in the U.S. They now specialize in helping American visitors get acquainted with the culture, history, and people of France. We're not leading tours. Grégoire Barone is raising his family a little south of Paris. For years now, Minnesota native Chris Coleman spends her summers living and guiding in France. And Veronique Savoy offers custom tours from her home base in the town of Tours.
6:38Rick Steves:And she offers online French lessons at francewithvero.com. Grégoire, when we think about the North, we have a culture that's used to having not that Mediterranean climate. Yeah, absolutely. In the North, it rains much more than in the South. And the North have, at least I counted, eight different words to have different names for the rain. I'm sure there is more. Yeah. Tell us a few of these and the fine distinctions between the different rains that you describe. So, déluge would be an heavy rain. A torrential downpour. Yeah, a torrential downpour. Une hondée will be also an heavy rain, but not as much.
7:16Giboulée would be a big rain, but that doesn't last. That happens suddenly, but it will go away also as quickly. Then we have a drache. That's a word from the north, which means also a big rain. Then we have the rain. Then we have a crachin, which is like crachin means to spit. So it's a little like spitty rain, spitting rain. And my favorite rain is brune. And brune is between a fog and a mist. That's a really light rain. That's a beautiful word. Yeah, I love it. Brune. And that's one of the rain you can just walk in it and you won't get wet for the first hour. Yeah.
7:48Rick Steves:And I can imagine having that in Normandy or Brittany. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Now, Gregoire, when you were talking about rain, I was also thinking about wind. And when I think about wind, I'm thinking more south. Yeah. And you've got some very fun folklore relating to the wind in the south of France, in Provence. Tell us about the Mistra. So Montpellier is to the west of Provence, but you could feel the wind there. And, you know, they say it comes from the north and it barrels down the Rhone River Valley, and it's very powerful. And I felt it in Montpellier. And, you know, the legend, of course, is that if it blows, it blows for three days in a row.
8:26And if it blows on day four, you probably have two more days because it's in increments of three. So it's this much, it's woven into the culture. Yeah, legendary, yeah.
8:33Rick Steves:And what's the one about where it blows the ears off a donkey? Oh, yeah. And even in medieval times, you know, you could say, oh, I killed my wife because the wind made me do it. And that was a good excuse. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. It's a powerful wind. What a buzzkill. Yeah. Hey, Gregoire, I like to think of how cuisine changes from north to south also. So, you know, when we go to France, a lot of times we're thinking about the fresh ingredients in the vegetables. I just love like a salad niçoise. But that would be in the south, in beautiful colors. What about that in the north of France? Well, in the north of France, it's more brown, so you get more brown food.
9:13Rick Steves:Wait a minute. I was just talking about a festival of colors. So we go into the north. Everything is brown. Oops. It's edible. No, but this is true. I mean, depending on how much, the more color you have in your plate, the more chance you are to be in the south of France. Is that right? Absolutely. Because in the north, the specialties are crepes. Galettes. And that's a galette. A galette would be a buckwheat flour crepe. And that is just brown. Absolutely. Yeah. Then you get butter, of course, is a big deal in the north of France. Also, you get cream sauce, coque au vin, all the stews. That's true.
9:48Rick Steves:So that's very interesting. up in the north of the Choucroute in Alsace also. All this is brown. There's no color. So, Veronique, from the Loire perspective, what do you think of when you think of northern cuisine and southern cuisine? I've lived in both areas with my family, Montpellier, Paris, and northern France, Lille. So I've experienced all these foods. The descriptions are pretty accurate. So in other words, much as we think of French as sophisticated food connoisseurs, that would be less in the north and more in the south? I wouldn't say so. I would say they have their own specialties.
10:23I would say the north is harder to love than the south. It's less obvious and you need to discover it. Wait, I'm supposed to be unbiased. I'm in the middle, aren't I?
10:32Rick Steves:It's okay to have an opinion. Okay, okay, okay. Good, good, good. Yeah, because living in Lille in northern France, it was wonderful. The people have their own qualities there. Not as easy to love maybe as the open, lively southerners, But the food is the same way. They have awesome beer, for example, if you're a beer drinker. Yeah, so... Well, and, you know, lots of ways to say rain and brown food. Liquid sunshine, isn't that what you say? Liquid sunshine, I like it. Liquid sunshine. Now, but the drinks are great all over France. One thing I do want to talk about is the dessert cuisine. Veronique, what's a skill so we can enjoy a region's desserts, sweets?
11:13Well, if you're a Parisian and you leave Paris and you want to order what Americans call a chocolate croissant and you happen to be in the city of Bordeaux or the city of Toulouse, you may not want to say pain au chocolat. If you do, you will be charged more because down there they call it chocolatine and it's a debate between the north and the southwest.
11:35Rick Steves:There is a real regional attitude thing. Yes, sir. Chocolatine. Yes, chocolatine. Because I never heard that word before but I like to say pain au chocolat. It puts me in a good mood. But chocolatine will put you in great mood, too. And it'll be cheaper if you order it that way in those cities. They'll charge you more for the pain au chocolat. Chocolatine. Chris, what's a good tip and some advice you have for a traveler going to different regions in France, getting the most out of the local desserts? Well, I'd love to, in particular, recommend that they eat something local, of course. And one of my favorite desserts that the Americans aren't really that familiar with is clafoutis.
12:10and clafoutis is like a custardy cake, usually with cherries, but you could have all kinds of different fruits in it and sometimes you can find it savory, but it's just an unusual dessert.
12:19Rick Steves:Where would you find that? You can find that all over, really. I think it might even be a northern dessert originally. What is the name again? It's kind of brown.
12:30It's clafoutis, so C-L-A-F-O-U-T-I-S.
12:34Rick Steves:Nice, clafoutis. And Gregoire, your advice for having extra calories after you're done eating. So even if I'm from the north of France, I really like the tropézienne. The tropézienne is a cake from the south of France. It's kind of a sponge cake with liquor cream base in the center. It really looks like a filled donut, a giant filled donut, but it's absolutely delicious. And it was created in Saint-Tropez, yeah? Absolutely. Tropézienne. And the name tropézienne comes from Saint-Tropez.
13:03Rick Steves:We'll tackle French stereotypes as we continue navigating between the north and south of France with Veronique, Chris, and Grégoire in just a minute. We'll also look at stories to discover about famous Parisians whose shadows remain all around you as you stroll the streets of Paris. And we'll help you choose which elegant palaces to put on your itinerary when you're in the chateau country of the Loire Valley. Bonjour. It's Travel with Rick Steves. We're looking at the differences you might expect to find between the north and the south of France today on Travel with Rick Steves. Our guides are Chris Coleman, Veronique Savoy and Grégoire Baron.
13:41Rick Steves:You know, in France, I'm always struck by the importance of looking good. I think a lot of people put energy into being properly put together. Is that the same across France or would that be a little bit regional? How do you see that, Veronique? I'd say it depends on the people more than the region, yeah. I think you have people who really put a lot of thought into how they look in Paris, and then you have people who look a lot sloppier even in Paris. And I'm debunking a stereotype right now because not all French people are stylish, especially in Paris right now. Right now? Yes. That's interesting.
14:18Rick Steves:Things are not quite the way it used to be because in Paris you would dress up to go out in the old days. Grégoire, what's your take on styles and fashion and the importance of looking good around Paris? Well, I grew up in Brittany and I had to move in middle school to the south of France. And it was quite challenging. On the north of France, I was wearing jeans, you know, with patches. I had fluorescent T-shirts and caps with giant visors. And all this was mismatching. But it didn't matter because people knew me, so I had lots of friends. But when I moved down South of France, oh boy, they look at me like an alien.
14:54And it was really... Like an alien? Yeah, it was really hard for me to make friends. And I stopped for a second and started to look at them, and they all had a different style than me. So they were judging me on the outside first, and it took me a long time to get a grasp of it. And finally, look, how they were dressed. They were dressed more like surfers. So I changed my style little by little, and all of a sudden, I started to fit in, which is kind of funny because it was in the Mediterranean, and there is no wave because this is a closed sea.
15:22Rick Steves:Oh, so they're dressing like surfers where there's no surfing. So it didn't matter. There was no wave. It was just cool to be a surfer. That's kind of the facade. But that was something you had to accommodate. Yeah, I had to accommodate. And then all of a sudden you had more friends. I had more friends. So I realized that appearance is a bit more important than it is in the north. That's interesting. Another thing that I'm fascinated by is stereotypes about how warm people are. You know, people always tell me, oh, people are so warm here or they're so businesslike here. And I find it's dangerous to stereotype.
15:52Rick Steves:But you know that. I mean, Chris, you're from Minnesota. Of course, Minnesota, nice. We've got southern hospitality. Here in Seattle, we've got the Seattle freeze. you know, aggressive New Yorkers and these are stereotypes that I just don't necessarily agree with but they're stereotypes nevertheless what are the north-south stereotypes that you find as an American who now lives and works in France? Yeah, you know, I think I know we're stereotyping and we're saying real blanket statements but I really think there's a blending, you know, even more so now of the cultures, you know, kind of this almost like organized chaos you know, like organized as far as the north, very Germanic and Anglo-Saxon influence, and then the South, more Latin, Mediterranean influence.
16:35Rick Steves:You do have that very basic dichotomy, the Germanic North, the Germanic. So Alsace would be sort of half Germany, and you'd have that. So I feel like there's certain areas that there's a more distinct Chile attitude potentially. I'd say that's maybe even more like Burgundy or Alsace, whereas in the South of France, I'd say it's generalized that people are more open. You might be more apt to have a conversation with a stranger in the south of France than you might in Paris or Burgundy, for example. But so that's overall, I think that's the case. And you can see that by the way people walk. One of my favorite things to do is to do people watching.
17:13So when I'm in Paris, I look at people walking. And in Paris, they go from A to B. They have a business to do.
17:20Rick Steves:Then when you arrive in Lyon, the big difference is that people are strolling. They are enjoying life. Walking versus strolling. Absolutely. And in the south of France, in Nice, people are beautiful and they know it and they show it off. To me, they're more like peacocks. Peacocks strutting. Peacocks strutting. Other people strutting. Enjoying life. People have business to do. And also color again, right? We were talking about the north with the food and the brown colors and so on. And south, more vegetables and bright colors on the plate. You see that in fashion too. In the north, you tend to see more somber colors, white, gray, black.
17:56South, the French, you tend to see the bright colors. And I often will tell my groups, if you see a man wearing red, orange, or yellow pants, he's French.
18:04Rick Steves:He's French? Yeah. Most likely in the south of France? Yeah. Is it south or north or just French? Normally south. But, I mean, once in a while in Paris, you might see it. But definitely in the south, much more colorful. If you see a man with orange pants... They're French. If you see a man with orange pants eating brown food... Then you're in a pickle. It's a mixed family. I don't know. Okay, this is so much fun. I just want very quickly to get an assessment of accents because in the United States we have southern accents, eastern accents, you know. Veronique, what are the accents in France just in general?
18:37Lots of them, but in the south they're very noticeable. The way they add, they seem to add a letter at the end of the words like pain, which is bread. In southern France sounds like ping. You know, like they add a G at the end. Northern France has an accent as well. In fact, Rick, I live in a city that for a long time had the reputation, Tour, of having the purest French language in France because there was no accent, zero accent. And to this day, we have a lot of schools teaching French as a foreign language because of that reputation.
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19:11Rick Steves:In Tour. In Tour. Grégoire, what is your take on accents around France? I feel also that I don't have an accent in my region of France. Nobody has an accent in themselves. The other ones do. I agree with Veronique. The South of France is really the most with the more chanting accent. Enchanting. Yeah. Enchanting. I can imagine that. It sings. A bit more like Italian. Yeah, a six song in Italian. That also goes along with a sort of carpe diem approach to life, like taking it easy versus getting it done. Yeah. Germanic versus romantic. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, very quickly, Chris, what about sports loyalties?
19:49South tends to be all about rugby. Yeah? I mean, more so than the North. You know, you get some of the bigger clubs, like around Toulouse, for example. Rugby is really big in the South.
20:00Rick Steves:And Gregoire in the North, what's big in the... Soccer, of course. Soccer. Soccer, big deal in France. All right. We're looking at France from North to South and the personality of the places and people you're likely to encounter. Our tour guides are Veronique Savoy, who lives in Tours in the Lower Valley, and Gregoire Baron, who lives near Fontainebleau, just south of Paris, and Chris Coleman, who's based in Minnesota but has lived and guided American visitors to France for many years. If we can wrap it up just with one beautiful example that you like to share with your groups when you're guiding of the beauty of one region's personality, I'd love just to hear you kind of finish it with that thought.
20:41Rick Steves:Chris, how about you first? I'd like to say the South really developed its personality due to its rugged terrain. And just historically, it was an area that was really difficult to travel through. You look at the North, it has this basin, these fields, and lots of invaders could quickly go through. In the South, it was much more kind of hidden and rugged, and people relied on the foods that they could grow on the spot. So scarcity really created the foods that they might be eating, like the vegetables, and also developed in their culture as far as less watered down culture, I would say. Right.
21:18Rick Steves:There's a strong folk culture. Yes. And a strong regional. Yeah. Less watered down than potentially the North in the sense that there was a lot more influences that were quickly. The North is a crossroads. Yeah. Strasbourg, the name means the city of the streets. It's the crossroads. It's the ultimate crossroads between the Germanic North and the Romantic South. And that would be a very important city in the north of France. Grégoire, what would you say is one insight that you'd like to share as a tour guide when you want to appreciate the regional differences in France? For me, it's really hard to make friends with a French person.
21:54But once you're in there, you have a friend for life. But first, you have to show who you are. That's really important. And when they can trust you, then your friends, and then friends for life.
22:06Rick Steves:That's odd. I think that's great. And Veronique, to finish off, you are in the Loire Valley. You are in the borderline between the north and the south. And if you were my guide and we had one week to have a very quintessential south experience and then a very quintessential north experience, where would we go? Well, I would take you further south. I would take you to my hometown, which is Toulouse. and I would introduce you to the pink city, La Ville Rose, the beautiful city of Toulouse. Glorious architecture, wonderful history, great food if you like, cassoulet especially, that stew. And then for a contrast, I would take you up north where I lived with my family for many years to Lille or the area around Lille, and I would introduce you to some of the brown food, and you might actually enjoy it, and what you might actually enjoy are the people who may not seem as open, you know, on the first level.
23:02In fact, when they describe the French here in America, when they say, you know, they're like coconuts, you have to go through that hard shell to find the milk inside, the softness, people in northern France are like that. And what Grégoire described as making friends for life, of all the regions where my family has lived, my parents have the fondest memories of the people in northern France. They kept friends for life. It rains a lot, the food is brown, but once you know those people, I tell you, Rick, this is where I would take you.
23:31Rick Steves:Oh, that sounds great. Sign me up. Grégoire, Chris, Veronique, merci bien. This has been a fascinating conversation. Merci beaucoup. Merci beaucoup, Rick. Since Paris is the hub of French culture, you'll find that almost anywhere you walk in the city, there's a story to tell behind the names they give to its streets and plazas. Susan Cahill knows that exploring the city on foot is the best way to experience Paris. She's written Hidden Gardens of Paris and Sacred Paris as guides to help you find a little refuge from the busy city. She's also written The Streets of Paris to explore where nearly two dozen famous Parisians have lived and the important events that have taken place on the very same cobblestones where you'll find yourself strolling today.
24:13Rick Steves:So, The Streets of Paris. You wrote in your book that the streets are stories. How so? Right. That's part of why I wrote the book, because I would wander around Paris and there would be one name after another that I'd recognize but not really know the details. So you can't really, you know, appreciate it if you don't know much about the person. And I found myself on the left bank just being so happy to find out about Montaigne, who I knew, you know, I knew who he was, but not in detail. And what you'd see on that street, the street of the schools, this bronze statue of Montaigne. And all the kids going back and forth from their classes up the hill in the Sorbonne, they would stop and kiss his foot.
25:03Rick Steves:Well, this is the Latin Quarter, right? That's right. And that's where, even in the Middle Ages, it's called the Latin Quarter because it was a university, and they spoke Latin in the university, and there were so many philosophers and great literary characters and so on that came to Paris because it was such a cultural capital through the centuries. And also Voltaire. I read several wonderful biographies of Voltaire, and then I went back. And my favorite café in Paris is Café Voltaire. It's on the river. It's right by one of the bridges. It's a beautiful little café, very quiet and lovely. And then came Camus up the hill.
25:43He was at Gallimaud, the publisher. He walked every morning to get to his publisher, but he would stop in Place Saint-Sulpice at La Marie Café, which is my daytime favorite, not my evening favorite. It's just wonderful.
26:01Rick Steves:You know, you mentioned cafes now a couple of times, and we're talking about streets, and it makes so much sense because the café is like a theater where you have your cup of coffee, you nurse your cup of coffee, You go to the same cafe every day, you sit in the same chair, and you watch the parade go by. You watch Paris happening in front of you on the streets. Let's talk about what happens on the streets, because the more you know about Paris, the more the cobblestones in the streets come to life. Right. I mean, speaking of cobblestones, the cobblestones are what angry people would pick up when they're going to rise up against the government.
26:34Rick Steves:It was ammunition. And that's why more of the squares are paved now, so people can't pick up their cobblestones. But we think of Les Miserables, and we think of the barricades, and we think of the boulevards that were cut through the city so that the generals could shoot what Napoleon called a whiff of grape shot, all these chains and nails through the cannon to mow down the revolutionaries. That's why we have straight streets. So we need to know about what we're looking at. Talk a little bit about what happened in the streets. Tell us about that. Well, revolution, for one thing. But what I'm recalling with great pleasure is Truffaut grew up in the Ninth.
27:09which at that time was working class and colorful, you know, in a great variety of shops and people. And he was a little boy who just ran all over the neighborhood, but he was watching. So his first movie, The 400 Blows, is about that neighborhood, and this little boy who was loose. His parents neglected him. They didn't care about him. He was on his own. 400 Blows is about Truffaut, and on the streets of the 9th. He was everywhere. He was just a kid. But he didn't miss anything. And I think that's what you see in the streets. The people are polite and all that. They don't interfere. But they don't miss anything.
27:53It's quite amazing.
27:54Rick Steves:You know, they do. They go to the market every morning and they sort of check in with their neighbors and they know what's happening. Right. And you go to the butcher, not just to get your meat, but to find out what's going on over here. And I heard about that, yeah. Patrick Modiano, the writer who won the Nobel in 2014, his whole story, all of his novels, and there must be 40 of them by now, take place on the streets of Montmartre and other places in the city, but mostly he's happiest in Montmartre. What is it about Montmartre? What is it about Montmartre? Because it is a place that gathers malcontents.
28:28Rick Steves:It gathers bohemians. It gathers poets. It gathers musicians. It gathers prostitutes. What is it about Montmartre? I wonder if it is the heights, being on the heights of any city. Because you look down over these hills of streets, and you're conscious or unconscious of the life that's taking place there. Also, you have to climb hard to get up there. And, you know, we always love the things that are hard in the long run. You wrote the book, The Streets of Paris. What is one street that we should really get into in order to bring to life the story of Paris? Well, this is off the beaten track, but I like it.
29:13It's up in Belleville, which is a section of immigrants mostly, and they all do very nicely together. I have spent many Sunday afternoons in the parks with Jewish children, Muslim children. They're all having a wonderful time together. But Belleville has a bad reputation. People say, oh, Belleville. Well, it's immigrants, and they help one another out. They warned the Jews when the Nazis had occupied Paris to get out. They hid in the basement of the mosque. That's another story. But I love the street behind. There's a big church up there called Notre Dame de la Croix. It's a beautiful church, and behind it is a narrow, winding road.
29:58you'd think you were in 19th century Paris. And it winds around all through Belleville, Menil-Montand, down to the Rue Obercan. And wandering around in that neighborhood behind Notre-Dame-la-Croix is just, you can't believe it because it's a total surprise.
30:18Rick Steves:You know, it's kind of tragic that the typical tourist doesn't even get close to that kind of street. No, no, I know. They've got their bucket list. They've got their grand boulevards. They're going to go to the Eiffel Tower, and they're going to go to the Louvre, and they should. But it is so easy to get on the metro and ride it to a stop that no tourist ever got off on. That should be your goal. And then look around, and you see, oh, Paris is not all what I thought it was. It's a wonderful compost pile of civilization and community. Exactly. Susan Cahill, thanks so much for sharing your expertise on Paris and writing your book about the streets of Paris, and happy travels.
30:59Well, thank you, Rick. Thank you very much.
31:09Rick Steves:Susan Cahill is the author of The Streets of Paris, a guide to the city of light following in the footsteps of famous Parisians throughout history. She's also compiled literary companions for traveling to Italy and Ireland. You'll find more about her work at susankahill.net. Our next guide divides her time between the excitement of Paris and the pastoral beauty of the Loire Valley. Danielle Ferrineau joins us from the Travel with Rick Steves archives for a look at visiting the timeless Chateau Country, where you can fill your days visiting magnificent palaces, vineyards, and orchards just a little southwest of Paris.
31:51Rick Steves:The Loire River Valley, a little south of Paris, was one of the poshest neighborhoods in France during the Renaissance. This means that today, you can spend days here admiring incredible architecture and gardens while learning about France's history and heritage. So, where do you start? Danielle Ferronaut joins us right now on Travel with Rick Steves for a visitor's introduction to the chateau country of the Loire Valley. Bonjour, Danielle. Hello. Danielle, you live in Paris, but you also live near the Loire Valley, a little bit south of the Loire. Yes, exactly. Why would somebody want to live in the Loire area when you could live in a great city like Paris also?
32:28Well, the Loire Valley is a very pleasant area to live. It's very quiet, of course, for those who like discotheques.
32:37Rick Steves:Okay, don't go to the Loire for the discotheques. No, even though there are some big cities that afford all sorts of activities of that type. But I would say that most people would go to the Loire Valley for the beauty of the area. very fresh air. And to get away from the intensity of Paris? Exactly. And maybe that was the same reason some of the nobility and royalty went there to build their chateau. Exactly. It's exactly what you say. The kings of France were hunters, first of all. Right. So they needed those big space for hunting, and the Loire Valley is the perfect place. Perfect place for hunting?
33:15Rick Steves:Yes. For Louis, it took a little while to go from Paris to the Loire Valley. Now today, how long does it take to go? Today, if you go with your car, it would take you three hours. And if you go by TGV, fast train? You can go to the big city of Tours within one and a half hour. So you can leave Paris and in one and a half hour be in Tours, T-O-U-R-S, and from there, Tours is on the Loire, and then the beautiful smaller towns are very close by. You can connect by bus, I suppose. Yes. If somebody is thinking about the most exciting single day to enjoy a representative look at the Loire Valley. What are the famous first things to see for a beautiful day on the Loire?
33:57A beautiful day in the Loire, if you are going by train, you just spend your day in the city of Tours, for instance, because Tours offers everything you can dream of.
34:08Rick Steves:Okay. It's a beautiful city located between the Loire River and the next big river, which is called the Cher River. The Cher, okay. In between, you have the city of Tours, like a very lazy sort of beauty. Between those two rivers, you see the beauty of the Loire. If you walk a bit further, you see the beauty of the Cher. In between, you have all those beautiful buildings, flowers everywhere. And we should mention a lot of the beauty of the Loire is not on the Loire, but it's also on the little rivers nearby. Exactly. Actually, la Loire is the big river of France. It's 1 ,000 kilometers long. and this part of the river we are talking about is like the last part before the ocean.
34:54Okay. It covers an area of about 300 kilometers. That would be about 250 miles, right?
35:00Rick Steves:I'm Rick Steves. This is Travel with Rick Steves. We're talking about traveling in the Loire. We're joined by Danielle Ferrono, a tour guide from the Loire area. And Danielle, we can enjoy the beautiful city of Tours. Again, T-O-U-R-S. Yes. But if you want to use that as a springboard and actually see some chateaux, what would be the best two or three chateaus and how would you describe them? If you were staying in tour, in a few minutes, I would say, half an hour, you could go to Langeais, you could go to Chenonceau, even though Chenonceau is a little bit further. And it's not really on the Loire.
35:37It's an attributory to the Loire. It's called the Cher.
35:40Rick Steves:Okay, C-H-E-R. And Chenonceau is the symbol of the beautiful chateaus of the Loire. If you had a book about the Loire, on the cover of the book would be a photograph of Chenonceau. Probably. Probably. Yes, yes. It's really the symbol of the elegance of that architecture. I think it sort of dances with little arches going over the river, and the sleepy Cher River instead of the bigger Loire River. Yes. It's called the Lady Chateau. Why is Chenonceau called the Lady's Chateau? It's called the Lady's Chateau because it happened that from the beginning of this place, from the beginning of the construction.
36:15It has been always the property of fantastic ladies. You know, the first one, Catherine Brissonnet, her husband was a tax collector of the king. So he was always with the king. She was there taking care of the construction, choosing the people, the artists who were working there. And then, of course, along the years, the other very famous one has been one of the King of France mistress, the lovely Diana, Diana de Poitiers, Diane de Poitiers, yes. Then when the king died and she was not the queen anymore, the chateau belonged to the real queen, Catherine de' Medici.
36:53Rick Steves:Catherine de' Medici, okay. Catherine de' Medici, another very strong personality, right? Catherine de' Medici gave this property to one of her daughter-in-law. This lady was called Louise, so she'll be another one of those famous ladies. And it goes on and on till up to now. Whoa. So maybe for these kings who are so full of power and ambition, maybe they had strong women and they just wanted to distract the women by giving them a nice chateau to take care of. I think they wanted to be nice. They wanted to be nice. Oh, that's good. I'm glad. And when you go today, it has a sort of a feminine touch.
37:33Absolutely. It's very elegant.
37:35Rick Steves:Describe the beautiful court, the long hall that goes literally over the river. It used to be a bridge, this long hall, actually. The first part is really the biggest part of the castle is what you see when you are walking towards the castle. On the riverbank. On the riverbank. Then Diana of Poitiers thought that it would be easier to go to the other side of the river, to the other side of the property, because this is where they were hunting, of course. It would be easier if there was a bridge. So she ordered people to build that elegant bridge on the river share. And then when she was not the mistress anymore, when the queen, Catherine de' Medici, took that property for her, she decided that she needed more space.
38:21And she thought that would be a good idea to enjoy, to take advantage of this fantastic location. So she decided to build an extra part of the building above that bridge. And that's how she got that fantastic gallery.
38:38Rick Steves:So the mistress of the king had a bridge going across the river. Hey, let's cover it up and make it an extension of the palace, and now we can have more people over for a party. Yes. Then it became a sort of tradition. Kings wanted to have always something spectacular like this. And when you go to a place like Shenan So, this beautiful chateau, you get an audio tour. If you're lucky to have a guide like you, well, you have a live guide. But most of the tourists that come there, included, I believe, with the admission, is a beautiful audio tour? Yes, at the very entrance to the property. And then every room is explained in English beautifully.
39:11Rick Steves:Now, this was Chenonceau. Chenonceau. That was the elegant chateau, the big grandiose chateau, also very important, Chambord. Chambord. Chambord is different. Chambord was built for a young man, the king Francis I. Oh, and he was like the ultimate king, the Renaissance king. Absolutely. He was the handsome young man of his time. He was 20 years old when he became king in 1515. He had already met Leonardo da Vinci. He was impressed by this master, by this man. He invited him in France, and with Leonardo's advisors, probably, he decided to build something really fantastic. That was like a dream, the dream of a young, maybe one of the last knights of the Middle Ages.
40:03He ordered the construction of something really big. And here is Chambord. Actually, Leonardo da Vinci never saw Chambord because he died in 1519.
40:14Rick Steves:Ah, so he never saw it. He never saw it. But he designed the fascinating interlocking stairway, the double helix it's called. Yes, yes, he probably designed this plan. When you go, it is like you think you could put 10 castles inside this castle. It's 440 rooms. You stand at the far end of the garden and it's just like a mountain. Yes. And it's fascinating to me, Danielle, that the lady of the court would go to the rooftop and watch the men hunting. Can you describe how that hunting spectacle worked for the fancy nobles and the royalty? Well, first of all, it would start with those fantastic horses, be dressed with incredible outfits and pearls and all sorts of jewels.
40:58They were dressed in a way that we can hardly imagine, and then they would go for hunting.
41:04Rick Steves:The men would dress with all the pearls and the jewels? Of course. So you'd dress up to go hunting. And the women with their pearls and jewels would be up on top of the roof, clapping for them and drinking tea, and there's my man. At that time, I don't think they were drinking tea. Okay. But part of the hunting party would be to impress the girls. Okay. So they had the best horses, the nicest way to ride a horse and so on. And a hunting party could last three days. Three days. And the grounds were big enough. Oh, of course. Yes. And sometimes they would even stay overnight because they were after a deer or they were after a wild boar or whatever.
41:45It was really something. And it was like the continuation of an old tradition that was the necessary activity to feed the people.
41:56Rick Steves:So that sort of goes way, way back to the clans and the tribes when the leader would keep the people with meat and protected from the wild beast and so on. Yeah. In the case of Francis, he was such an athlete. He was quite an athlete, yeah. He was an athlete, so he would be able to kill a bear or a wild bear. Oh, he's the king I would like for sure, Francois Premier. Yeah. Leonardo chose to live in his court. Danielle Ferry knows our guide to the gentle opulence of the Loire Valley Chateau country right now on Travel with Rick Steves. It's where the French aristocracy left behind a legacy of tales and scandals that can spice up your visits to the region's elegant palaces, stately homes, and gardens.
42:36Rick Steves:And it's around a two-hour train ride from Paris. We've put together a map of our favorite chateaus to visit with a quick blurb about each one, and photos, too. You'll find a link to that in this week's show notes at ricksteves.com slash radio. Mary Jane emails us from Santa Inez in California with a suggestion from her visit to the Loire Valley. She writes, We were driving through the Loire Valley on our way to the Chambord Palace, and we got as lost as we could on purpose just to have a spontaneous day. We found wonderful little farm communities that looked like an unoccupied three-story chateau on a lovely estate.
43:13Rick Steves:we walked around the area and enjoyed meeting the wonderful local people. We found that not caring where you're going in the Loire Valley presented many interesting opportunities that we would not have had if we just followed a set route connecting famous castles together. Of course, they eventually did see the big castles, but the highlight of their trip was just visiting people and villages and getting lost. Yes, of course. The villages are all authentic. What is interesting also about this area is the way the houses were built. In this area, they are lucky enough to have this type of stone, which is a sort of white limestone.
43:49It comes from the cliff along the valley of the river. From centuries and centuries, men have been using those stones.
43:58Rick Steves:So it's local, it's affordable, it's easy to quarry. And it's white. And it's white. It's white. And it becomes whiter and whiter with the time. So it gives those villagers a charm because it's so different. Houses are small and white, covered with a gray slate roof. It's unique. And with the flowers, you know, it makes a lot of contrast. One of my favorite things is Amboise is a good home base when you're in the Loire. Amboise has a beautiful chateau, and it happens to have the home of, as you know, Leonardo da Vinci. Leonardo. And you walk through these neighborhoods with this beautiful white stone, and you also pass some troglodyte homes.
44:36Rick Steves:people living in the mountain, in the cave. The caves are naturally holes in the cliff, but they can be also the result of those quarries that have been used for centuries and centuries, and especially by the Romans. This part was part of the Roman Empire, of course. The Romans needed mass and mass of stones to build their roads, their bridges, and so on. So they got those huge holes in the cliffs. So those all became homes for people, the troglodyte homes. And the troglodyte can be warm in the winter and cool in the summer. Exactly. Natural insulation. And perfect cellars. Oh, perfect cellars for the local wine.
45:17Because also the Loire Valley is one of the most important wine countries in France. And another little industry or agriculture, it's the culture of the mushrooms.
45:29Rick Steves:I heard you can actually visit a cave with mushrooms. Yes. Mushroom in France is a champignon. So a place where you grow the champignon is a champignonière. Okay, so you can visit your champignonière in the Loire Valley. Exactly, yes. All right. I'm Rick Steves. This is Travel with Rick Steves. We're speaking with Danielle Ferrenu. We're talking about the wonders of the Loire Valley. Our phone number is 877-333-7425. You can email us anytime at radio at ricksteves.com. And Nicole's on the line in Dallas, Texas. Nicole, thanks for your call. Oh, hi there. I had a beautiful experience in the Loire Valley a few years ago, sort of the back roads.
46:10My husband and I spent 10 days driving from Saint-Benoît all the way to Nantes. And we stayed mostly in accommodations that we found on Gilles de France's website. So we stayed in very small B &Bs, families, people that were making their living from the land, eating local foods, local wine. We made sure that each opportunity we had to have the table d 'hote with the host dinner was just a really special part of the trip, a great way to get to know the local people.
46:49Rick Steves:So now is table d 'hote, does that mean the dinner that they would provide? Yes, it's fantastic. I mean, the place she stayed in Saint-Benois, literally, we had river trout that her neighbor had caught. Now, Nicole, for our listeners, you mentioned you were staying in the GIT system, G-I-T-E-S, and this is unique to France, and it is just a beautiful opportunity for travelers like you who want to get more by spending less and connecting with salt-of-the-earth people out in the countryside to become a temporary local. Nicole, what was your favorite castle experience while you were in the Loire?
47:20I have to say Chennault-Soul, not only because it's so beautiful, but we happen to be there in the winter, and it's literally snow just a little bit every single day of our trip. And so I have a great picture of Chennault-Soul with snow falling, and so I forever think of it as Chennault-Snow now.
47:46Rick Steves:Chennault-Snow. I like that. Well, thank you, Nicole, for your call. You're welcome. Have a good day. Bye-bye. This is Travel with Rick Steves, and we've been speaking with Danielle Ferrenau about the Chateau Country of France. And, Danielle, it's interesting for me because you live in Paris, which is the Manhattan of France, really, but you also seem to be very charmed by living more in the peaceful countryside. If you were a visitor, or if you had a visitor in the Loire Valley and you wanted to give them a very restful experience in the Loire Valley, what would be the most beautiful way to truly recharge and relax and savor the good life of the Loire.
48:23You could go in one of the villages, Montsouris, for instance. Montsouris is a fantastic town along the river where you see the sand and you see the Loire and you see people going fishing. They have those special type of flat-bottom boats that are built the way they were built hundreds of years ago, the gabars.
48:44Rick Steves:The gabars, they're unique for the Loire industry in the old days. Yes, exactly. And also one thing maybe we should mention is that in the past, the Loire was navigable, which means all those kings, all those members of the nobility who wanted to be along the Loire with the king for various reasons, they were coming mostly by boat. They had those fantastic equipages on those boats and the big trunks and all that, including the horses. So nowadays, you go to Montsouro, you see that they have recreated this life, going fishing with a gabar, having a drink, looking at the people. So find a small town.
49:24Rick Steves:It could be one of many towns. Stay in a chambre d 'hôte, a bed and breakfast, and become a temporary local person. Yes, and just look at those sites. You don't have necessarily to visit inside all those chateaus. There are so many of them. Of course, you would like to see all of them, but if you just look at them from outside, they are all located in fantastic places, above the hill, etc. That's the charm of the Loire Valley. And see maybe one or two vineyards and figure out a little place to taste that good wine of the Loire. And I want to visit a champignon. Ah, champignonière. Yes. The mushroom cave.
50:02Rick Steves:What is the mushroom cave called again? Champignonière. Another dimension of the Loire Valley. Danielle Ferrenu, merci bien. You're welcome.
50:13Travel with Rick Steves is produced at Rick Steves Europe in Edmonds, Washington by Tim Tatton, Kazma Hall, and Donna Bardsley. Affiliate relations are by Sheila Gerzoff. Jerry Frank wrote and performed our theme music. You can find links to our guests and search the show archives at ricksteves.com slash radio. We'll see you next week with more Travel with Rick Steves.
50:35Rick Steves:The Rick Steves Guidebooks are consistently the best-selling series of guides to Europe. That's because we lovingly update them in person and cut through all the superlatives to give you hard and smart opinions based on decades of experience. Find them at your favorite bookseller and at ricksteves.com.
From the publisher
A trio of Rick's tour guides banter about the nuances of northern and southern France, from climate and demeanor to food and fashion. Then author Susan Cahill describes how wandering the streets of Paris brings to life the stories of the city's artists, writers, and historical figures. And an expert offers recommendations for enjoying the elegant chateâu country of the Loire Valley.
For more information on Travel with Rick Steves - including episode descriptions, program archives and related details - visit www.ricksteves.com.