809 Women of Pompeii; Lesser-Known Greek Isles; Weird Ireland

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Travel with Rick Steves - Episode 809 Summary

Podcast Title: Travel with Rick Steves Episode Title: Women of Pompeii; Lesser-Known Greek Isles; Weird Ireland Episode Description: Explore the lives of women in ancient Pompeii, uncover lesser-known Greek islands, and delve into the quirky side of Irish culture.

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Episode Highlights

Segment 1

Women of Pompeii

Guest: Gabriel Zuchtergal, Director of the Archaeological Park of Pompeii
Focus: Recent excavations revealing the lives and societal roles of women in Pompeii.

Key Insights

Historical Context:
The eruption of Mount Vesuvius in A.D. 79 preserved the city, offering insights into daily life.
The exhibition "Being a Woman in Ancient Pompeii" aims to shed light on women’s varied roles.

Diverse Roles of Women:
Women ranged from enslaved workers and prostitutes to affluent businesswomen.
Important artifacts include inscriptions, graffiti, and personal items that provide a glimpse into their lives.

Notable Figures:
Asselina: Operated a tavern; her name suggests a brand ("female little donkey").
Amaryllis: Worked with wool; represents the domestic roles expected of women.
Eumachia: A wealthy businesswoman who constructed significant buildings in Pompeii and was influential in public life.

Segment 2

Lesser-Known Greek Isles

Guest: Apostolos Douros, Greek Tour Guide
Focus: Recommendations for exploring off-the-beaten-path Greek islands.

Recommended Islands

Small Cyclades: Kufonisi, Iraklia, Schinousa, and Donousa
Characterized by their small populations (150-350) and accessibility.
Skopelos:
Known for its lush pine forests and as a filming location for *Mamma Mia!*.
Nisiros:
A volcanic island where visitors can hike up to the crater.
Kastelorizo:
The most isolated Greek island, notable for its unique architecture and close proximity to Turkey.
Syros:
The capital of the Cyclades with a beautiful town (Hermopolis) that is often overlooked by tourists.
Samothrace:
Known for the Nike of Samothrace statue and opportunities for hiking and exploring nature.

Segment 3

Weird Ireland

Guest: Brinsley McNamara, Videographer and Writer
Focus: Exploring the quirky and offbeat traditions of Ireland.

Key Topics

Fairy Forts:
Ancient ring forts believed to be inhabited by fairies; common folk traditions advise against disturbing them.

Cryptids:
Discusses the Loch Rea Monster, a lesser-known creature compared to the Loch Ness Monster.

Matchmaking Festivals:
The Listoonvarna Matchmaking Festival in County Clare, where traditional matchmakers help singles meet.

Cultural Oddities:
The phenomenon of show bands in the 20th century, which influenced popular music in Ireland.

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Key Takeaways

Historical Importance: Women’s roles in Pompeii showcase a diverse societal structure that challenges traditional narratives.
Travel Recommendations: Lesser-known Greek islands provide unique experiences away from the tourist crowds, each with distinct characteristics.
Cultural Quirkiness: Ireland's oddities, from fairy forts to matchmaking festivals, reflect a rich tapestry of folklore and tradition.

Additional Resources

For more information on the topics discussed, visit [Rick Steves' website](www.ricksteves.com).

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Transcript

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0:00What was day-to-day life like in the ancient Roman world? The director of the archaeological park at Pompeii tells us that recent excavations from the doomed city are shedding new light on how women lived in the first century. It's a way of exploring the part of history that often has been marginalized and forgotten. Experience timeless beauty without the crowds on dozens of lesser-known islands in Greece scattered across the Aegean. A guide from Athens describes his favorites. You can imagine the reflection of the pine trees down to the seed, creates this turquoise water. And get an insider view on some of the quirkier things about Ireland.

0:38I think everywhere is equally weird around the world. It just takes being able to stand back and see what you've gotten too used to when you're in the place. The women of Pompeii, the smaller Greek islands, and the folk customs and superstitions of Ireland. It's all just ahead on Travel with Rick Steves.

1:01Most tourists to the Greek islands only go to a handful of places. A Greek tour guide joins us in a bit to recommend many of his favorite smaller, uncrowded islands where you can find the laid-back simplicity of an earlier era under the Aegean sun. And a young writer from the middle of Ireland's drive-over country shares a few of the stranger traditions and customs that give Ireland its own brand of character. Let's start today's travel with Rick Steves looking back to the year A.D. 79. The date was probably October 24th. A few earthquakes in Italy's Campania region across the bay from today's Naples suggested something was up.

1:38Then people noticed a towering column of ash and smoke erupting from the previously quiet Mount Vesuvius. It took less than 24 hours for the busy port city of Pompeii to be covered in ash and stones. While most of the city fled as a precaution, thousands of its residents were unable to escape the deadly waves of gas, the incinerating ash and lava flows that would bury their city for the next 2 ,000 years. Recent excavations at Pompeii are revealing more about day-to-day life for the first-century Roman world. The director of the archaeological park at Pompeii joins us now on Travel with Rick Steves to tell us what they've assembled in a special exhibition called Being a Woman in Ancient Pompeii.

2:21Gabriel Zuchtregal, thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me. You know, Pompeii is famous as a place where we can get a very intimate and candid look at life in Pompeii, and it seems that this exhibition that you're putting on for the rest of the year really is an important dimension of the mission that you would have as the director of the Archaeological Park of Pompeii. What do the excavations at Pompeii reveal about the daily lives of women in not just Pompeii but the ancient Roman world as a whole? Yeah, Rick, what we wanted to do is to talk not so much about representations of women and artworks showing women, but what does it mean to be a woman in this ancient Roman world, and especially in Pompeii.

3:09And so there are obviously very different kinds of women living in this city. There were enslaved workers. Many prostitutes were enslaved. There were also some male prostitutes. There were all kinds of workers in agriculture and artisanry and so forth. But there were also very wealthy women who sometimes were also businesswomen and, you know, were very important in the public life of Pompeii. You know, Gabriel, as a tour guide, I know that a scholar can write an essay on something, but it's so important to have artifacts, actual tangible examples of these things, as a rack upon which you can hang your teaching.

3:57What are some of the artifacts that have been really helpful for you when you want to demonstrate the reality of being a woman in ancient Pompeii? Well, it's certainly some of the portrait hats we have, some of the spaces also where we know where women worked. There are many paintings showing women, but there are also grave stelae of girls and women. Many people in antiquity didn't reach the age of, let's say, 10 or so. So you get women of all age groups and you have messages maybe written by women that's interesting to them, any inscriptions and graffiti in Pompeii. Usually we tend somehow in the past it was assumed that they were normally written by men, but who knows?

4:46So it's a way of exploring the part of history that often has been marginalized and forgot. You know, a lot of people underestimate the amount of writing that happened 2 ,000 years ago in ancient Rome. And when you dig deeper into some of these sites like Pompeii, you realize there are a lot of inscriptions and even graffiti. And you can get love notes, you can get prayers, you can get political endorsements. And a lot of insults also. And a lot of insults. It's a great way to get an insight into the daily grind of living in the ancient world. There's a lot of, as you mentioned, elite women. There are working class women and there are enslaved women at Pompeii.

5:31How did those roles differ? Well, they were kind of the two extremes of society. You get on the one hand a woman like Oymakia who built an enormous building on the forum, on the public central square of the city with statues and marble and inscriptions. And then you get the women working in the brothel or at the bottom of society, exploited without voices who would be sold for two assets, which is a very small amount of money. At the time, you could buy a loaf of bread or so. And so you have this really different world where women lived in. Gabriel Zuchtergal is the director of the archaeological park at Pompeii.

6:21He's joining us from his office right now on Travel with Rick Steves to share insights about life in the ancient Roman port of Pompeii before it came to a sudden end. Gabriel's just written The Buried City, Unearthing the Real Pompeii. His team's special exhibition on being a woman in ancient Pompeii has been extended. It's at the Palastra Grande through the end of January 2026. Gabriel, I went to the Pompeii website and I enjoyed reading about the exhibition on women in Pompeii, and it was fascinating. Just to have little thumbnail biographies. I read several of them, but I like the names. Asselina, Amaryllis, Umachia.

7:00Let's meet these three women for just a moment because one runs a tavern, the other is a spinner, and the other, whose father was an importer of jugs and bricks, took on the business of her dad. Can you tell us a little bit about Asselina? Well, Asselina, first of all, the name is very interesting. It's literally the female little donkey. Asselina. So it's probably some kind of brand, right? She had this small tavern, and she had several female co-workers or employees who might have been enslaved workers. And often the women who worked in these inns were also involved in prostitution. So it was a place.

7:48Yeah, she wrote about it. She wrote about it very casually, that she would say, yeah, it's part of the service that we provide. Yeah. But then she writes a message on the facade of this small inn where she supports together with the others, with their names in the political elections of the city. So women couldn't be elected. They couldn't vote. But they could evidently express their, how do you call it, their support for politicians. So there's these nuances of life that we can derive from the inscriptions and from the excavations. And that's the beautiful thing about a special exhibit that a site like Pompeii would put on.

8:35Let's visit another one of the women who are featured in the Pompeii exhibit on the life of women. And that would be Amaryllis. Amaryllis is a woman who worked with wool, who was spinning wool, which was an activity that was so to speak outsourced. So there was the big wool traders and they had herds and a lot of sheep. And then they took the wool and it had to be cleaned and you had to spin it and everything. And they gave it in small quantities to private homes where people would do this and then give it back. as still, I think, in many countries until the 18th, 19th century. That was quite common.

9:20So cottage industries, women would spin at home as sort of, like you said, outsourcing from a big wool manufacturer. Exactly, because there were no mechanical factories. And so she probably was a slave woman. There's an inscription from her house. she's also linked to sexual practices. And so it's not really clear. And this is part of the history of Pompeii. You really can tell. Was it just someone who was kind of joking in a pathetic way? You have to put that puzzle together the best you can. And one thing you did, it was clear, the standard thing was on a girl's wedding day, the mother would bring a spindle as a symbol of her domestic role.

10:11to the house where she was going to live, her husband's house, kind of saying the mother endorses this idea that her daughter will spin a lot of wool as part of this family's way to make ends meet. Is that right? It was kind of part of the ancient imagination of how a good housewife, you know, should be and she should look after the house and make wool, spin wool. Then what we see in reality is that this work often was done in this commercial way by enslaved workers. So it's kind of a difference between imagination and ideal and the daily reality. Gabriel, we're almost out of time, but I would like to meet one more woman from 2 ,000 years ago in Pompeii.

10:57Tell us about Eumachia. Eumachia is kind of a great woman in a certain period of time in Pompeii building this huge construction on the Forum on the central square of Pompeii for the wool industry business, a meeting place. It's also a place of worship for the emperor. And so it's really, it's like the great, how you say, the Umachia Tower, right, in downtown Pompeii. And she comes from a very important family. but it really seems that she was the most important figure of that family for some time and she builds a huge funerary monument outside the city where she writes on top of it so for herself and for the others.

11:48So that makes it quite clear who's the boss in this family at that time. Gabriel, we're out of time now but I would love it if you could just give us one more review of what is the exhibit and why that would be an important dimension of our next trip to Pompeii? We thought it as a kind of introduction into the lives of women and also into visiting the site. So you can go through from being a girl to being a woman, a priestess, a mother, and you can learn about the various aspects of femininity 2 ,000 years ago and then see the site and look at the paintings and the houses from this specific viewpoint.

12:31It gives us another perspective on life, daily life at Pompeii, which is kind of the specialty of that site if we want to know what it was like to live in ancient Rome 2 ,000 years ago. Gabriel, thanks so much for visiting with us and best wishes with your work. And thank you for all of the energy it must have taken to put on this exhibit, Being a Woman in Ancient Pompeii. Thank you. Thank you.

13:07There's more about the special exhibit on the women of ancient Pompeii from a link we provide at ricksteves.com slash radio.

13:19We'll look at the weirder side of Ireland right after we escape to the smaller, lesser-known Greek isles in the Aegean. That's coming right up on Travel with Rick Steves. With their picture-perfect, whitewashed villages against a deep blue Aegean sea, the islands of Greece deserve every bit of their fame and popularity. And a visit to Greece just isn't complete without at least one island stay. My favorite is the convenient and charming Idra. And, sure, Mykonos and Santorini, they deserve their fame. But with nearly 300 inhabited islands, there's no shortage of options for those who really want to get off the beaten path.

14:00And with all the crowds going to Greece these days, that's a great idea. I'm joined right now by Greek guide Apostolos Douros to talk about his favorite lesser-known islands of Greece. Apostolos, thanks for being with us. Thank you, Rick. Thank you for having me. Thanks for joining us and sharing your expertise on the islands because, you know, we all dream about the Greek islands and the Aegean Sea, and there's literally hundreds of islands, but it seems like the tourists crowd into just 10 or 12 islands, doesn't it? Wouldn't you say 90 % of the tourists are in a few of the islands? That's correct, because a lot of the travelers, they don't know the existence of a lot of the islands.

14:40It is considered that Greece has about 6 ,000 islands, including, of course, the inhabited islands, the rocks, and the islets. and there are about 100 islands at the moment they're inhabited according to the latest census of 2021. But of course, during the summer, more islands are inhabited because some businesses open in other islands as well. So you can imagine how many choices a traveler can have in Greece. Now, Apostolos, when we think about 100 islands in Greece, most of us who know Greece can name maybe half a dozen or a dozen. but there's a hundred. How many of those, just would you guess, have ferry service so people can come and go?

15:24Almost all of them, I would have to say, especially during the summer season. I would say the best time for all of the islands to be visited is from May till September. May till September, and that's when you have the ferry service. I remember one time I was on the islands when we went from travel season to off-season, And almost overnight, the ferry service changed, and there was not so much accessibility. Now there is more accessibility because with the development of tourism in Greece, there are more boats, there are more lines. You can find all the information, the latest updated information on the Internet, and that has made traveling much easier in Greece than it used to.

16:06So now you can have access to much more information. That is great news. Now, we have all of these islands, but I would love it on this conversation if you could just share with us maybe five of your favorite islands that I probably don't even know the names of. Can you think of five islands that we could dream about? What would they be, Apostolos? First of all, I would say about a small group of islands, about four islands, which is called the small Cyclades. We know, of course, the Cyclades, the famous group of islands, which is called Cyclades because of the circle, the ring they create around the sacred island of Dilos.

16:43And these islands are about 25. And in that group of islands, we have another smaller group of islands called the small Cyclades. Because we're talking about small islands that are inhabited about 150 to 350 people of population. And an island is called Kufonisi out of these four islands. And Iraklia, it's the second one, and Schinousa and Donousa. These are the four islands. They make the group of islands the small Cyclades. And these are islands that you don't need necessarily to have a car to go. And that makes it very important for a traveler. So tell me, just paint a picture. What would it be like if I found myself on one of these islands in the small Cyclades?

17:27Is it an island that you can walk to the far side to a beach with no problem? Are they that small? No, they're not very small, but if you want to walk, you can walk. And there's also a local bus that can take you from one side to the island to the other, or you can take local boats. But if you would like to walk for a couple of miles to find another beach, you can easily do that. Usually there's a local transport, there's a local bus that connects the two main villages, let's say, off the island. So it is ideal for hiking, especially during the spring season when the temperature is not very hot.

18:05But during the summer months, you can easily take small boats to go from one place to the other. So where are these small Cyclades? Because, you know, most of us tourists, we know Delos. And as you mentioned, the Cyclades, that word is from the Cyclades cycle. It makes like a geological circle around that pivotal island of Delos. and that was the very important place in ancient times. Where are the small Cyclades in relation to that? The small Cyclades are next to the island of Naxos, between Naxos and Amorgos Island. So they're almost in the center, we could say, and you can have access to one of them from the port of Piraeus from Athens, and it takes about six hours to get there, five to six hours.

18:51But for the rest of the islands, including the Kufonisi, the one you can travel from Athens, you can have access from the island of Naxos. Okay, because many ferries will go to Naxos because that's a big famous island. And from there, you'd have the connection to the little version of the Cyclades. That sounds so interesting. Tell me another island we might want to go to, Apostolos. I would definitely choose the island of Skopelos. Skopelos belongs to another group of islands. and it is north-central Greece. It's to the eastern part of Thessaly. Skopelos, it's one, if not the greenest island of Greece.

19:30It is covered about 80 % by pine trees. So you can imagine from the small Cyclades that it's very dry and of course you have this beautiful combination of the golden grass with the big blue of the sea. We travel to Skopelos, further north in an area that is full of pine trees. You can imagine the reflection of the pine trees down to the sea. It creates this turquoise water. And it makes it unique because there are people, they would prefer to go to an island that is not very dry. And they can have a shade all the way down to the beach where they can have their shade and they can enjoy their swimming.

20:09And it is a beautiful island. So you have shade with the trees. I've been to a lot of Greek islands, but I've never been to a Greek island that you would characterize as green. This is actually a green island, Skopelos. It is a green island, and it feels very fresh and beautiful even during the summer months because you can always find shade in all the villages you go, and you can enjoy the sea. And also I would like to say this is an interesting element of a film location. The film Mamma Mia!, the first film was shot at that island. and that makes it interesting. So if you want to have a look of the island, you can watch the first film.

20:46And something I would like to add is like, although the film was shot there, it wasn't taken by over-tourism and that has made a very big difference. Still, it is a beautiful island to enjoy. Nice. And the group of the islands is called the what? The Sporades. Sporades. Sporades. And I'm looking at my map right now. You would go from Athens north And is there one port on the mainland that is the jumping off port to see the Sporadis? Yes, there are two ports of Agios Constantinos and Constantine and Volos. And you can take a bus and they're organized companies. You can buy a ticket, including the bus from Athens and the boat.

21:28So the boat is not going to leave without the bus arriving. So it's very, very handy. You can do it without feeling stressed. You're going to miss the boat. This is Travel with Rick Steves and we're getting acquainted with some Greek islands that you may have never heard of before Our guide is Apostolos Douros Apostolos has been working in tourism now in Greece for almost 20 years He lives in Athens and organizes small group tours in the northwest of Greece as well as on the island of Crete If you want to learn more about his work his website is WondersofKnowledge.com WondersofKnowledge.com Okay Apostolos, take us to another island Where else would we go?

22:05Oh, I would go to Nisiros. It is an island that belongs to that group of island called the Dodecanese. It is towards the east, let's see, towards Turkey, if we see the map, the map of Europe. Yeah, that's the whole group of islands that rubs against the southwest corner of Turkey, near Kusadasi and Bodrum on the Turkish mainland. Exactly. You're very close to Turkey, not very far away. And in Nisiros, it is a unique island, what we call a volcanic island, because the most famous volcanic island is Santorini. So people, they don't know that there's another volcanic island, Nisiros. You can even go and visit the volcano and the crater, and you can walk.

22:47And it's a beautiful experience to be on an island which is not very touristically developed. Yeah. This one is Nisiros, N-I-S-Y-R-O-S. Tell us more about the volcano. You can actually hike up to the rim. Is it like Santorini where you've got the sea around the crater, or is it in the middle of the island? It is in the middle of the island. It's not like Santorini, which is like an actual another island off the coast. So there are a lot of excursions that are organized, and you can go and walk over the volcano. And also there are two beautiful villages that have a view of the volcano and the crater.

23:29You can imagine staying in these small villages and you can have a view of the volcano from your terrace and the crater. And also I recommend it for hikers. There are amazing hiking paths in Isilos. It is recommended for people they enjoy walking. Apostolos, take us to another island that might have more of a local economy and less tourism and less crowds and a little more magic for the certain kind of traveler that wants to be away from the beaten path. I would recommend Kastelorizo. Kastelorizo, it is the island which is very close to Turkey. It's about 1.5 miles away from the coast of Turkey.

24:10It's the most isolated Greek island. And it is a beautiful island. And the economy, of course, it is based only on tourism. You can get there by plane. you can fly to Rhodes, to the island of Rhodes, a big island, of course. And from there, you can connect with another flight to Castellorizo. And if you want, you can take the boat and in 20 minutes, you can be in Turkey. So you can go even for a daily trip to Turkey. And you can go to the market and you can come back to the island. Because you're closer to Turkey than you are closer to other parts of Greece. So that makes it interesting as well, culturally.

24:50And the architecture is amazing, and the food, of course, Rick, you know, the tavernas by the seaside in Greece on an island. Fresh fish. Oh, yes. It's something unique on this island. Fresh fish and beautiful Greek salads. You know, you mentioned it's close to Turkey, and the people would actually do their shopping in the next country over, Turkey. In the past, there's been stress between Turkey and Greece. Now, how are the relations with Turkey and Greece so that if you're on Samos, that you could head on over to Cusadasi and see Ephesus? Or if you're on Rhodes, you could head on over to Marmaris and see the Turkish culture there.

25:28And if you're on coast, you could head over to Bodrum. There's so much on the Turkish mainland. And interestingly enough, the ancient bits on the Turkish mainland are Greek because that used to be a Greek region called Ionia, right? Exactly. And we call it, you know, the Asia Minor. It has a lot of history. It was a part of unseen Greece, a part of the Greek culture. And at the moment, there are like eight islands in Greece. You can cross and you can take the ferry and go to Turkey. So a lot of the Greek people, the local people, they go to the markets. So the economy also off the coastline in some of the smaller town, it is based also on Greek people going to do their shopping in Turkey.

26:11So there's a very good relation, let's say, between the small communities because they support themselves economically. And this is important. Apostolos, this is so fun. Can you take us to another island that we might not find American tourist crowds or international tourist crowds? I would recommend Syros. Syros has the town of Hermopolis, which is the capital of Cyclades, of Cyclades. And it is a beautiful town. And many people, they go to other islands in Cyclades, as we say in Greek, and they go to Santorini, Mykonos, Sifnos, Follegandros, and they don't go to Syros. And Syros, although has the capital of Kyklades, has one of the most beautiful towns in that group of islands.

27:01And it's called Ermopolis. This is the island Syros, S-Y-R-O-S. Exactly. And I always pronounce this sort of the Anglicized way, Cyclades. Cyclades. But the correct Greek pronunciation is what again? Kyklades. Apostolos Douros is joining us from his home in Athens right now on Travel with Rick Steves as he offers his insider tour guide advice for visiting many of the smaller, lesser-known, and less-crowded Greek islands. Apostolos has been working in tourism in Greece for some 20 years and is a student of international politics. And as you might expect from his voice, Apostolos was once a presenter on Greek radio, playing love songs by request.

Read the full transcript

27:43Today, Apostolos offers tours of modern Athens and organizes small group tours of Crete and the northwest of Greece. His website is wondersonfknowledge.com. Apostolos, we have just a minute left, and we have one more island that you can share with us. What would that last island be that is not so touristy? I would say Samothrace. Samothrace is a very unique island. It is in northern Greece, and Samothrace, possibly you've heard about this island because of this amazing statue of the Nike of Samothrace. You can admire the Museum of the Louvre. I have always heard of that, the winged victory of Samothrace, and that's one of the highlights of the Louvre in Paris.

28:28So that's the island where this famous piece of art was discovered. Tell us a bit about the island. The island, first of all, it has a mountain, a high mountain that people can go climbing and hiking. They can go kayaking because it has small streams and rivers and ponds, natural ponds that are created by these amazing waterfalls. So, of course, you can go to the beach and enjoy, but also you can do a lot of hiking and natural activities on the island. And this is something that makes it unique. And, of course, it has archaeological sites. and the food is amazing because in northern Greece it is very, very known for its amazing and delicious food.

29:13Boy, all of these islands, we will list them in the notes for this week's show so that listeners who really want to go and put these travel dreams into reality can find the spellings and so on. And Apostolos, I'd like to close with a very, very romantic image that I have when I'm on a Greek island. I love a glass of ouzo on a romantic perch with a great view at sunset. I try to find that every island I go to. I want to enjoy the sunset. I want to drink ouzo as the sun's going down, and I want to be surrounded not by tourists but by locals. I want to hear the clatter of worrybeads. I want little children to be running and playing and dogs and people, you know, mending their nets, whatever.

29:56Can you describe, of all these places, the most romantic perch you could have with me for a glass of ouzo as the sun goes down? I would say on the small island of Kufonisi, it is almost sunset. You take a little boat from the main town to go just to an isolated beach where you have a small taverna. You can sit down and sip your glass of ouzo with the locals. You can have your grilled octopus and you can see the sunset and you feel that you don't want this moment to end. Oh, my goodness. And like you said, a small, isolated beach with a peaceful taverna. The sun's going down, and the island you chose is one of those handful of four islands in the small Cyclades, Koufonisi, K-O-U-F-O-N-I-S-I.

30:52And we're going to play a little game of backgammon. We're going to ask for another glass of ouzo. we're going to cut up that octopus and we're going to celebrate as the sun goes down and we're enjoying a magic moment in the Aegean Sea in Greece with the help of a wonderful tour guide. Apostolos Douros, thank you so much for being with us. Thank you, Rick, for having me.

31:19Apostolos Douros also told us about more Greek isles that he recommends for visitors on Travel with Rick Steves program number 762. You can listen to that from a quick link to our show's archives at ricksteves.com slash radio. Some of our Travel with Rick Steves listeners share their original haiku about the autumn season in a bit. But first, a young videographer and writer from small-town Ireland joins us. Brinsley McNamara collects many of the mysterious tales and offbeat traditions of Ireland on his Weird Ireland sites on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok. He shares them with us next on Travel with Rick Steves.

32:00What's the best way to take in the deep history and stunning scenery of the Emerald Isle? Well, Brinsley McNamara might argue that it's by embracing Ireland's weird side. Brinsley has been collecting the odd and fascinating stories and places from across the island for his book, Weird Ireland. Whispering arches and matchmaking festivals, standing stones, moving statues, lake monsters, healing rocks, it's all featured in this off-the-beaten-track journey into the bazaar, into the Irish bazaar. He joins us now from his home in County Westmeath to take us for a walk on Ireland's weird side. Brinsley, thanks for being here.

32:41No problem, Rick. Good to be here. Good to meet you. Yeah, you too. Now, you're from County Westmeath. Travelers don't encounter that word very often. Where's Westmeath, and what's it like growing up there? I mean, I guess the easy joke would be west of County Meath. But that is true. There is a County Meath and we're the west part. It's very much the heart of Ireland. The geographical centre is right here. The ceremonial centre is right here. The rest of Ireland kind of revolves around it. But really, it's a very flat kind of place. Lots of farmland, very little trees. We call ourselves the Lake County.

33:13We have a terrific amount of lakes and a terrific amount of folklore around them too. Is there, in the United States, we have all these states that sound about the same way. we call it flyover country in the middle of our country. And a lot of people, they don't recognize what's there and they just end up flying from big city to big city. Is it kind of like that in Ireland? It's absolutely. It's a very common thing for tourists in Ireland, I will say. Almost all of them fly into Dublin Airport. We'll spend some time there. We'll get a bus to the West Coast. And by doing that, you'll entirely skip over counties, Meath, West Meath, Longford, the driveover counties.

33:45So if I'm driving or taking the train from Dublin to Goway, I'll go through your county? Not specifically that one, but if you're going to Sligo, you'll go through my county, yes. Okay, a little bit farther north then. Great. Now, what got you into this whole weird business in Ireland? To be honest, I just love documenting history in general. Anything interesting like that, weird sights, it fascinates me so much. I actually very much got the name from the Weird New Jersey magazines over in the USA. Ah, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's where they come from. The Weird New Jersey, Weird Washington, all sorts.

34:19But naturally, the kind of weird things you might see in the USA are going to be very different to the ones here. You might encounter more Bigfoot stories. You might encounter more UFO stories in the USA. But here, you're going to hear a lot more miracle stories, holy statues, this kind of thing. Well, the island is drenched in legends and it's drenched in folklore. It's drenched in religion, whether it's Catholic or pre-Christian. And a lot of it is just mysterious. I mean, to me, weird is kind of like shrouded in centuries past and overgrown with moss. And you have a chapter about storied places featuring mythical landscapes and fairy forts.

35:00I'm really into Dingle Peninsula, and that whole peninsula is like a wonderland of mythical megaliths, if you know where to look. And then the more you know about those mysterious rocks, the more you realize there's a story to tell. Tell us a little bit about fairy forts and ring forts and that kind of thing. Well, fairy forts and ring forts, I will say they're up there with the most common thing you will find in Ireland. There is ring forts, you're talking, in the tens of thousands across the country. What they are is they're perhaps Iron Age former habitations or sort of fortresses as well too.

35:32However, they've got a lot of folklore attached to them where people believe that fairies lived there or lived there at one point. and it is a very common thing growing up in Ireland that you'll hear don't go in there if fairies live in there you know don't transgress it that's an extremely common folktale that every child growing up in Ireland will hear I heard that. So when you're out playing with your friends and there's a ring fort there and you actually steer clear of it? Yeah absolutely there's even hawthorn trees the idea of don't cut down a hawthorn tree don't touch a hawthorn tree within a fairy fort no there's a ton of lore attached to those things some people take it very seriously too.

36:05Well now there's so there's thousands of these things and of course Ireland is a lot of farmland and there's these little areas in the farmland that is more important to honour and steer clear of than to grow more produce. What is a ring fort? How old is it? Paint a picture of what it was like when it was important and doing its thing. That's a good point, actually. To me, I know what they look like all the time, but someone listening might not know what they are. If you're to see a ring fort right now in Ireland, it will look like, in a field, it will look like a circle of trees, short trees.

36:37In the middle of the circle of trees will be just a grass clearing and it will be slightly elevated. That's what a ring fort will look like or a fairy fort. Why are the trees there, Brinsley? People don't cut there. People don't farm on them. Oh, so it's like, yeah. Wow. But now, fairy forts, is that just another word for a ring fort or what's a fairy fort? Because I've climbed around some of these things. Some of them are great sites to see. Oh, absolutely, yeah. No, they are terrific things to see. I mean, they're very natural. They're very untouched. You won't see a whole lot of rubbish in there or any building happening on them.

37:08Those two terms are the same thing, realistically. If you're saying Ringfort, it's very archaeological speaking. If you're saying Fairy Fort, it's the idea that otherworldly beings live around them. And if you're a tourist and you wonder, why does this road kink around us if there's something important it's avoiding, you could say Ringfort. Very likely that. Now, I will say, every year in Ireland, you hear very infamous stories of a road is being built. It's going to demolish a ferry fort. It brings bad luck to the road. There is dozens of stories like that in newspapers in Ireland going back the years.

37:40Dozens of them. And a public outcry to say, don't do that? Absolutely. Absolutely, yeah. And a lot of people very strongly believe. Because you live there, you're going to pay the price if you rile up those ferries. Yeah, if you build a thing, it'll be bad luck upon you. If you drive on the road, you could crash, this sort of thing. Fascinating. This is Travel with Rick Steves. We're exploring the offbeat side of Ireland now with Brinsley McNamara, and he's compiled his favorite Irish oddities in his book called Weird Ireland, and it's based on his video series under the same name. Brinsley also hosts a weekly Weird Ireland podcast, and you can find out all about his content on Instagram and YouTube.

38:16Okay, Brinsley, one of your chapters is about mysterious creatures, and it talks about cryptids. A cryptid, what is that? A cryptid is a creature that is not proven to exist. Whenever someone says cryptid, the first example is Bigfoot. Bigfoot's a cryptid. The Loch Ness Monster is a cryptid. Maybe ghosts are cryptids. They're just not proven to exist. And we do have plenty of our own here. Not Fungi, the famous dolphin, the friendly dolphin in Dingle. No, Fungi's a real thing. Fungi's definitely real. Fungi's no longer with us, but Fungi was very much a real dolphin that lived off the Dingle Peninsula.

38:49I want to get into cryptids in a minute, but my favorite creature in Ireland, boy, it's got to be Fungie. Bless his soul. I guess he's gone. But in your book, you mentioned he was quite a tourist attraction from 1983 to 2020. Absolutely. Yeah, huge. A lot of people say now Dingle in County Carey, it's not an especially big town. Very nice place. But it was very much a fishing village for a long time. And Fungie in the 1980s, this dolphin that was very remarkable because it was so friendly, would come very close to boats. He would allow people to get in very close contact with him. It meant that people started organizing tours to go out and see the sea and see fungi as well.

39:27And from that, it really built the whole economy of Dingle. There's a statue dedicated to fungi there. There's dolphin murals all over the place. Yeah, Dingle's a thriving little tourist town, and it could be worth visiting because of its situation as sort of the hub for exploring the fascinating Dingle Peninsula and getting out to the remote Blasket Islands. It could be worthy because of its great tradition of folk music in the pubs. But kind of weird that half of the tourism there seemed to be there because that's the home of Fungi, the friendly dolphin. I remember back in the 1990s, people actually swam with Fungi.

40:04There was actually a lot of people who, in the 90s in particular, believed Fungi had a sort of spiritual aspect to him. He could cure diseases, that sort of thing. A lot of people did actually visit him a lot and swim with him for that reason. Yeah, I thought him was kind of a spirit creature. Leave it to Ireland to find some sort of a quirky, quasi-religious dimension of a friendly dolphin. That's an honest-to-goodness character that lived and died, and life goes on and didn't go without him. But what about these Loch Ness Monster-type sightings on lakes and in the sea? They're not as famous as Scotland's Loch Ness Monster, but what's an example of a cryptid?

40:43No, yeah, nothing beats the Loch Ness Monster in Scotland. However, here in Ireland we do have the Loch Rea Monster. Loch Rea is a big lake. It's actually next to Westmeath where I am. In the 1960s there was a very particular sighting of the Loch Rea Monster there. Now it was nowhere near the same size as the Loch Ness Monster. That's like a great big dinosaur almost. This thing was about eight feet long, something like that. Oh, just a little wee cryptid. Like a big eel, like a really, really big scary eel apparently. All right. So that's something that some of those myths and so on, did they crop up in modern times or have they been around for a long time?

41:21Oh, I mean, the Lockery monster, that's been around. There's accounts of giant lay creatures in Lockery going back to early Christian era, early medieval. That goes back 1400 years or something like that. And that lake has more of those kind of sightings than other lakes, clearly. Give or take. In Connemara in County Galway, there's a lot of small lakes there, and the lakes there have a humongous amount of accounts like this, too, in the 1950s, 1960s. Okay, so just Irish people, when they step out from the pub, they look out at the lake and rub their eyes and see some kind of a big eel. You wouldn't believe how often it happens, yes.

42:00That's great. Now, you have another chapter in your book, this Weird Ireland collection, and it's about folk cures and old customs. And one of the great things going on there is this matchmaking festival. Oh yeah, the Listoon Varna, the Listoon Varna matchmaking festival. So Listoon Varna is a town in County Clare, a small town, and for the whole month of September every year, they host the matchmaking festival where people from all over Ireland, all over the world, very popular in the USA as well, travel to Listoon Varna and they hope to have a match made by a traditional matchmaker. It was a sort of a profession of people in Ireland a long time ago where someone in the community would be a matchmaker.

42:41They would take two singles and they would think, okay, this person will work well with this person. You two should have a go, you know, before apps were doing this kind of thing. Yeah, before apps, before Tinder, you could do that. And it's probably related to some societies that have arranged marriages, isn't it? I mean, you can look at it from a logical point of view or was there any sort of logic that you would be compatible economically and from your family histories and this kind of thing? Or was it more just pin the tail on the donkey? Economical was the right way of putting it. Originally, it would have been more so that, to do with dowries and that kind of compatibility.

43:18These days, there's one. There is one matchmaker left in Ireland. He works in September in Listoon Varna, and he has sort of a different system to it. He can see sort of a magic and a romance and a spark between two people and encourage it to happen when he's there. Oh, really? So he's got some insight to see if there is a sort of sparkle or a chemistry. Absolutely, yeah. But in the old days, did parents kind of huddle with this matchmaker and say, you know, it would be kind of nice if we could give you a little extra gift if you can get our two kids together? I think so. I think so. They'd always be someone that's an objective parent.

43:51I think that's more so their role a long time ago. Tell me also about stick fighting, because I didn't realize there was sort of a native Irish martial art. So stick fighting, Bataract, some people call it Bataract. It is a martial art involving shillelies or blackthorn sticks. It's something that's not terribly well known in Ireland and it's coming back more and more, but it's using, yeah, blackthorn sticks to fight each other. If you've ever seen the film Gangs of New York, there's actually a little bit of it in that film. Huh. Well, I just remember that was brutal. That's what I remember in the Gangs of New York.

44:24So you can actually, that actually happens these days? People have a rumble that way? These days? Not really, no. I think there's probably more effective ways than that. Blackthorn sticks are still pretty common in Ireland, but not everyone has them. But people practicing it is getting more and more common. People want to connect with that kind of route, and it is getting much more common. Brinsley McNamara is on the line from his home in County Westmeath in Ireland. He's telling us about the tales and customs he digs up in his book, Weird Ireland, An Unofficial Guide to the Island. You'll also find Brinsley's postings under the Weird Ireland channel on YouTube.

44:59Hey, Brinsley, you cover a section about cultural oddities. And one thing I found interesting was show bands. I had never heard about this, but apparently there were over a thousand of these cover bands, kind of, back in the 50s and the 60s. Tell us about show bands in Ireland. Show bands are honestly one of the most iconic Irish music forms of the 20th century. Everybody thinks traditional Irish music, you know, with the fiddle and with the banjo. but show bands were the scene where they looked at like the likes of Elvis Presley in the USA in the 1950s. And they sort of had a showy look to it.

45:35The people would wear very kind of decorative outfits and it would be sort of more dance hall, American influenced, I don't know, family friendly type music. Yeah, it sounds kind of clean cut. Parents would like their kids to see this. Absolutely. Back then in the show bands era, a lot of dances where young people would meet would be organized by the actual church itself. Well, speaking of the church, it's interesting that you wrote that during Lent, the 40 days before Easter, the show bands really didn't have much of a market. So that was the only time they were free on their schedules to leave Ireland and perform elsewhere.

46:12Consequently, they weren't that well-known outside of Ireland. No, not at all. Not at all. I mean, they are still to this day extremely popular and some of them still actually play in Ireland to this day. That'd be fun. You could look that up on your trips then if you wanted to. Would somebody, if you're staying in a bed and breakfast and you asked about a show band, would they know what that is? Oh, absolutely. Everyone in Ireland will know what that is, yeah. A show band. Artists like Red Hurley are still playing. So, yeah, you can definitely still catch shows. Nice. Hey, what about, you know, we're talking about Weird Ireland.

46:39It's kind of tied in with this famous the luck of the Irish. Where did that luck of the Irish come from? What's that all about? You know what? That is an interesting question because we've been pretty unlucky, I actually would have thought, over history. I know. So it's a bit of an oxymoron level. Is that a kind of ironic, when you say the luck of the Irish, does it actually mean the unluck of the Irish? If something goes wrong, you go, ah, the luck of the Irish. It seems like a self-deprecating joke on our own part, and that would be really characteristic of the Irish. I will say that now. So that could be the crux of it now.

47:08That makes sense, you know. Hey, so we're talking about Ireland, but you're part of the Celtic Crescent, all these Celtic societies that surround England, right? Brittany, Wales, Scotland, Ireland. And they might have some of this weirdness or England could have some or does Ireland really excel in this kind of weirdness? Or if you lived in Scotland or if you live in England, would you be able to write just as good a book? Absolutely. You'll find it everywhere. I think everywhere is equally weird around the world. it just takes being able to stand back and see what you've gotten too used to when you're in the place, you know.

47:42Like I've said, with the religious statues in Ireland, they're extremely commonplace. So you have to take a step back to be able to see. It's just not a bit odd, you know, if someone from another country came here, would they not think this is a little bit out of place? And you'll find that in every country in the world. And honestly, I do want to do that in Britain and in Spain in particular. Hey, there's an idea for a series of books. Weird Ireland, Weird Scotland, Weird England, Weird America. Weird America exists. I will say that book does exist. There's a whole other discussion, Prinsley.

48:10So, Prinsley, we're talking about weird. And in a lot of ways, that's kind of like clickbait. I mean, it catches your attention. It's interesting. But you've given this a lot of thought. How does weird actually teach you something about Ireland that's real and worth knowing? Well, I think weird, whether it's weird Ireland or weird USA or weird anywhere, what you're doing is when you're saying that you're pointing out the particularities of a place, sort of the cultural iconic aspects of something. What makes Ireland weird, what makes it different from other places, is what makes it iconically Irish.

48:41So when you think about Ireland, what's weird about Ireland, as you said, look at what's iconic about Ireland. It's a sense of a big family on a small island. It's religious passions. It's difficult times. It's famine. It's relationship with England. It's struggles. It's love of life. And it's the whole idea of crack. and you go into the pub and, you know, a stranger's just a friend you've yet to meet if I remember correctly what my Irish friends told me. Yeah, I guess that's right, yeah. I mean, I guess what's weird here in Ireland is what makes it Ireland and not make it like anywhere else in the world.

49:17And that's one reason we all love Ireland so much. Brinsley McNamara, thanks so much for writing Weird Ireland. I was going to say happy travels, but I'm going to say weird travels. Weird travels, you too, Rick. Thanks for having me on. I'd like to find a way to be to places at home time Oh, it's easy going back again, but it's hard to say goodbye Has anything weird or memorable from your travels ever inspired you to write about it in a haiku poem? Here's what a few of our Travel with Rick Steves listeners have sent us from a link at ricksteves.com slash radio. A listener named Will in Kent, Washington, finds inspiration in the changing of the seasons.

49:56First blush of autumn reminds summer's verdancy it is time for rest. Janet Jobe of Chattanooga was in the right place at the right time, as she describes it in this haiku. Fall arrived today while sitting at the cafe on the Roman Road. Royal Roads of Gambier, Ohio, found himself searching for a different kind of autumn experience in Germany. In Oktoberfest, instead of drinking, I stroll the English garden. Travel with Rick Steves is produced at Rick Steves Europe in Edmonds, Washington by Tim Tattman, Kazmer Hall, and Donna Bardsley. Affiliate relations are by Sheila Gerzoff. Website uploads are by Andrew Wakeling and Sherry Court.

50:44Our theme music was written and performed by Jerry Frank. Gretchen Strauch read our listener travel haiku. You can find links to our guests and search the show archives at ricksteves.com slash radio. We'll see you next week with more Travel with Rick Steves. Hey, I'm Rick Steves. Season 13 of my TV series, Rick Steves Europe, is now out. And this and every season of Public Television's most watched and longest-running travel series is available in its entirety, free and ad-free, at ricksteves.com. That's our entire library of episodes, cutting Europe into more than 100 slices, ranging from Iceland to Portugal to Turkey.

51:24Let's say you're wondering where to go in Scotland. Well, three episodes answer that question in 90 minutes. You can also read the full script for each show and find links to the places we visit. Sure, our TV shows entertain, but they're also practical guides to the smartest possible itineraries, turning your travel dreams into smooth and affordable reality. It's all at ricksteves.com.

From the publisher

Learn about the societal roles and everyday lives of the women of Pompeii. Then get recommendations from a Greek tour guide for some islands that should be on your radar for your next visit. And take a walk on the Emerald Isle's weird side with a local collector of all things offbeat, outlandish, and delightfully Irish.

For more information on Travel with Rick Steves - including episode descriptions, program archives and related details - visit www.ricksteves.com.

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