810 Gothic Literary Tourism; Mexico's Day of the Dead; Spooky New Orleans

0:00There's more to classic Gothic literature than monsters in the supernatural. We think of the Gothic as to do with terror and fright, but it also helps us confront those devils. It helps us look them in the face and then decide what we do with them. Coming up, Madeline Potter helps us find what Europe's scariest stories can teach us about ourselves. While Mexico's Day of the Dead festivities are becoming more popular across North America, Luisa Navarro reminds us of its deep roots designed to help us face our mortality. This is an authentic Mexican tradition that stems from pre-Hispanic times. And hear what you might actually encounter on a ghost tour of old New Orleans.

0:45I had people burst into tears. I had people try to run out of the room. I had one girl swear that she had been slapped in the face. Come along with us for the hour ahead, if you dare. It's Travel with Rick Steves. Why do you see so many marigold flowers on the altars people make for the Day of the Dead? Coming up on today's Travel with Rick Steves, we'll hear what's behind the Mexican traditions that are growing in popularity north of the Rio Grande. There are also many reasons New Orleans can feel haunted by its past. A local tour guide tells us what happens on her ghost tours of the city. Let's start out today looking at the role Gothic literature plays in dealing with our mortality.

1:27In Europe, scary stories can be set in shadowy castles, foggy moors, or eerie landmarks that inspired 19th-century authors to write about monsters, vampires, and things that go bump in the night. Our guide to Gothic literature is Madeline Potter. She was raised in a Roma family in post-communist Romania and holds a Ph.D. in English literature from the University of York. Dr. Potter joins us now on Travel with Rick Steves to remind us of places that inspired novelists to concoct their nightmare fantasies. Madeline, thanks for being here. Thank you so much, Rick, for having me. It's a real pleasure.

2:04So you're featuring places that have a connection with this whole Gothic sensibility. Now, I know about thin places in my travels. There are places that are close to heaven, but you're into murky places, places that are close to the monsters and vampires and whatever hell is. Tell us about Gothic places, Gothic literature, and how it relates to tourism. Yeah, so Gothic literature emerged roughly in the late 18th century. It emerged from this movement called Romanticism that emphasised a turn to emotions. And I'm simplifying a little bit here because otherwise I'll be here till tomorrow. and expressions of individuality.

2:48And Gothic literature turns to the dark side of these things and turns to the past, turns to the medieval world, looks at hauntings and also obviously monsters, very famously Frankenstein and Dracula. And I think in a way, thinking about what Gothic literature tells us about being human is a journey, is travelling, but it's travelling inside ourselves. but if you want to check some literary places that are related to the Gothic you might want to start in Transylvania but also Lake Geneva where Mary Shelley's Frankenstein was famously born as well as John Polidori's The Vampire one of the earliest prose fictions that we have in the English language that features a creature that we might today recognize as a vampire.

3:40Okay, now before we get into all of these individual places, Maddy I would like to, first of all, straighten out the word Gothic. To me, Gothic is medieval architecture, and it was named as an insult of the Goths because Goths were a barbarian tribe. So the people that came after Gothic said, well, that's old-fashioned. Let's call it barbarian or Gothic. So there's that Gothic. There's the Goth sort of counterculture that we see today. And then there's Gothic literature. What do they have in common? I mean, what do Goths walk in the streets with their dark demeanors today have to do with Gothic literature and Gothic architecture?

4:20Yeah, well, Gothic literature is associated in many ways with Gothic architecture. So when it started, you get these ruined abbeys. That's it. So that is the connection, just Gothic ruins. It's a great setting for a Gothic novel. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, there's always some kind of ruined abbey. But also it is associated because the rise of Gothic literature in Britain is partly related to translations of dark romantic literature from Germany. So there is that sense of the Germanic, the Gothic. Would that be like scary fairy tales? There are a lot of, there's the theme, for example, there are German ballads and there are German stories about the undead lover.

5:00Undead. See, there is a great term. Yeah, they're not alive, but they're not dead. Yeah, exactly. They're in between. So often Gothic literature in Britain and Ireland was sometimes described as the German craze. So there is that sense of the Germanic, the Gothic. And then the Got subculture emerged from the post-punk era. It was mostly associated with bands such as The Cure or Joy Division. and then it flourished with this aesthetics, the draws on dark clothing, vampiric looks, but also, yeah, more broadly a fascination with ruins and Gothic literature. But the Gotts subculture is still primarily associated with music and fashion.

5:48But it does have that connection then. Absolutely. This is Travel with Rick Steves. We're talking with Madeline Potter. Her upcoming book is called Theological Monsters, Religion and Irish Gothic. To learn more about Madeline and her work, you can go to madeline-potter.com. Well, let's talk about sightseeing if you're interested in goth culture and gothic literature. First of all, got to start with Transylvania and Vlad Dracula. Isn't that sort of the, if you were going to have a greatest hits of gothic tourism, Transylvania? Definitely Transylvania, yeah. The castle. And it's, I've been there.

6:25I think it's a terrible tourist trap. Yes, it is. Yeah. And what's really interesting is a Bran castle that you've been to. Yeah, the Bran castle. So what's really funny is that historically, it's quite likely that Vlad Dracula never set foot there. It's not his actual castle. His castle was in Wallachia because he was a Wallachian ruler and it's called Poenari Castle. Well, they got to get their promotional budget together then because Bran is getting all the money. Yes, but it's become Romania's Gothic tourism hub. And if you go to Transylvania now around the castle, you will see trinkets with vampires on them and red wine markers as blood.

7:02OK, my goal as a tour guide is to take that goofy tourism gimmick and drawing some kind of worthwhile history or story out of it. What's something worthwhile we can derive from the goofy story of Vlad Dracula and sucking blood in a castle that he never went to? Well, there are still superstitions that are still very much alive in Transylvania. People do still very much, especially in more rural communities, believe in these things. Now, I grew up in Romania in what would be historically the region of Transylvania, although now it's considered it's just on the outskirts. Growing up there, I grew up with people actually hanging garlic garlands on their windows on St.

7:51Andrew's Eve to keep at bay the strigoi or the vampires as they're called. Now, imagine when I became a scholar of Gothic literature and I'm writing about Dracula and I'm seeing Bram Stoker describe Transylvania, describe these places that I knew as a child. it's very very interesting that Bram Stoker he was an Irish writer who was thinking about the condition of Ireland as well to a certain extent and what's interesting is that there are parallels between the ethnic and religious tensions of Ireland and the ethnic and religious tensions of Transylvania. Transylvania is you know Romania is the land of Romanians Wallachia is the land of Wallachians England is the land of the Angles whereas Transylvania doesn't have that it's the land across the forest, Transilva, it's kind of a vantage point, which in a way makes it Gothic itself, right?

8:45Because you can't really fix it, pin it down to something. And in Transylvania, there are Catholics, there are Orthodox people, there are Protestants, Calvinists, there are Romanians, there are Germans, there are Hungarians. The German communities are fascinating because there are little enclaves of Germany that are more traditional than Germany today. So this is all fun to look at these broader connections. Now, when we think back to Bram Stoker, he may have been Irish, but wasn't he inspired by ruins? I know these ruins on the cliffs of Whitby in England. Yeah, he vacationed in Whitby. And it's very funny because he was actually in Whitby when if we look at Bram Stoker's working notes to Dracula, he was going to set it initially in Styria where Joseph Sheridan Le Fanu sets his own vampire novella, Carmilla.

9:34And he was going to call the count, Count Vampire. Vampire? Yeah. Vampire the vampire. Exactly. Which I don't think would have been as successful. No, Vlad. Vlad Dracula is much better. Exactly. So when he was in Whitby, he went to the library and found this book on the history of the Romanian principalities. And that's where he came across the name Dracula and Transylvania. So you You can see in his notes to Dracula when he's crossing out Styria and replacing it with Transylvania. But this is so interesting that a writer could be writing about a place that maybe he's never even been and have a big impact on it, you know?

10:12But you know what's interesting is that I think he really captures the atmosphere of Transylvania, even though he had never been. But today, apparently there's a goth festival in Whitby. What would a goth festival be like? So people go to Whitby and they listen to goth music and they really dress up as... So it's goth. It's this subculture of goth people that came out of punk rock. Yeah, it is. But it's no accident it's in Whitby, right there in the shadow of this ruined gothic building that inspired Dracula. Yeah, it's very much to do with the legacy of Bram Stoker's Whitby. And you're living and working in Edinburgh now and that also has some connections.

10:53What would those be? Edinburgh has a history of body snatching, which was this practice of essentially excavating bodies that had just been buried so that they could be sold to anatomists because there was a ban on… Dissection for medical study. Exactly. And if you read Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, which isn't set in Edinburgh, but it engages with that sort of background, Victor Frankenstein describes himself as walking through the charnel houses. So we do wonder how Victor might have acquired the parts that he needed to assemble the creature. And John Polidori, who wrote The Vampire, he was a student at the University of Edinburgh.

11:42He studied medicine here. So you teach. I do. Just to wrap up our conversation, Maddy, what can Gothic literature teach us about being human? Why does it matter? I think it makes us understand the darker sides of humanity. I think we need monsters to understand who we are. We need these projections to look inside ourselves because if you look at human history, there's been so much tragedy. And we wonder, where does this come from? It's humanity itself that's capable of great violence and great evil. We think of the Gothic as to do with terror and fright, but it also helps us confront those devils.

12:28It helps us look them in the face and then decide what we do with them, how we fight them and how we understand them so that we can move beyond them. Madeline Potter, best wishes with your teaching and thanks again Thank you so much, Rick

12:48Madeline Potter's book Theological Monsters, Religion and Irish Gothic examines how 19th century literature explores knowledge of the divine It's due to be released in April 2026 by the University of Wales Press. Maddie also pays tribute to her family's heritage in The Roma, A Travelling History You can hear about that on program number 802 in the Travel with Rick Steves archives. As one of the oldest cities in North America, New Orleans is also said to be one of its most haunted. We'll hear what you might encounter on a ghost tour of the city in just a bit. But first, let's learn what's behind Mexico's Day of the Dead.

13:31Death is universal, inescapable, and it's our fate. As humans, we're connected by this thread of mortality and the inevitability that one day we will all take our last breaths. We can choose to embrace it or we can fear it. In the Mexican culture, there's a colorful festival in which the living and the dead reunite. Families create a mantle decorated with flowers, offerings, pictures, and significant symbols. In the streets, adults and children paint their faces like skeletons and vibrant orange and yellow marigolds decorate the walls, drape the doorways, and hang in ornate designs everywhere you look.

14:11Life and death are celebrated together over a two-day holiday each November at All Souls Day that we've come to know as the Day of the Dead. Journalist Louisa Navarro is a Mexican-American who's spent time connecting with her roots and appreciating her heritage. She's written the book Mexico's Day of the Dead, and Louisa joins us now to share her understanding of Dia de los Muertos. Louisa, thanks for joining us. Thank you, Rick. It is such a pleasure and an honor to join you today to talk about Dia de Muertos, or Day of the Dead. And you've written a gorgeous book about that. And what inspired you to delve into this really colorful and popular, but often misunderstood or not totally understood holiday?

14:58Yeah, so I am Mexican-American. I grew up in Dallas, Texas. And when I was a child, my mom would decorate our home with skeletons during the day of the dead season. And if I'm being honest with you, I kind of thought it was strange and I was afraid. And I didn't necessarily connect with that side of my culture in the beginning. But it wasn't until my cousin, who was 24 years old and she was my best friend, Her name was Lila. She passed away, and I really struggled with her loss, and I didn't know what to do. And that was when I realized, wow, I'm so fortunate that I am Mexican because I can turn to my culture for help and guidance.

15:42And I started getting really into it and learning the process of what it is to build an altar. So you really recognized in a practical, hands-on way, dealing with the sad death of a friend, that this can be approached. The traditional celebrating of the Day in the Dead helps people deal with death. Exactly. You know, I think that one of the saddest parts about death isn't necessarily death itself, but it's the fact that we're almost not allowed to talk about the people who have died anymore because we make people feel uncomfortable. And so when I lost my cousin Lila, I felt like I wasn't allowed to talk about her anymore.

16:20But thanks to our tradition, thanks to Dia de Muertos, Day of the Dead, I am allowed to talk about her and celebrate her once a year and all my other relatives who have passed away. And it's so beautiful. And I hope to inspire other people to do the same all around the world. Now, Louise, it's interesting, as I was reading through your book and thinking about this, the Day of the Dead in Mexico and in Latin America, it coincides with Halloween, and it also coincides with All Saints Day. Correct. And that's the day at my church when we bring pictures of people, loved ones who have died, and they're put up on a table in front of the church, and there's candles, and we remember of the dead.

16:56How is that happening all on the same day? What's the connection with this pre-Christian indigenous Latin American celebration and this Christian Catholic celebration and all this Halloween goblins and skeletons? That's a very interesting happening at a certain time of year. Of course. And first, I want to emphasize the fact that Dia de Muertos is not Mexican Halloween at all. It is not meant to be a scary holiday or a silly holiday. It is meant to be a holiday where we come together, have dinner, place the pictures of our loved ones and honor them and celebrate their memory. You know, I grew up celebrating both Halloween and Day of the Dead, but they're completely different holidays.

17:40Originally, the reason that we are so lucky to have Day of the Dead is thanks to the indigenous people of Mexico. It's a pre-Hispanic tradition, and it was actually originally celebrated in late July and early August to honor the goddess of death known as Mik de Kasiwato. What the indigenous people did is they would burn copal incense. They would, like you said, decorate with flower garlands, specifically marigolds, which are known as cempasuchil. That's the indigenous word. And they would make tamales. And there was at the time some human sacrifice. And eventually what ended up happening was when the Spanish colonized Mexico, they actually did not approve of this celebration at all.

18:24And they did try to eradicate the tradition. But the indigenous people would continue to celebrate and honor Mixta Casihuatl secretly. And what the Spanish did was they decided to, there was this natural syncretism that happened, and they decided to move the celebration to November 1st and November 2nd, which, as many people know, in the Catholic religion is when we celebrate All Souls and All Saints Day or the people who have died. And that is why Dia de Muertos is now celebrated November 1st and 2nd. So when we say pre-Hispanic, meaning literally before the Spanish came, before the conquistadors.

19:01And when they came, they brought with them their religion. And part of the conquest was to put the Catholic religion on the indigenous people. But in any case, when conquerors come in and take over people, they have to deal with these deeply held feelings, religious feelings that were already there. So a lot of times they will mix it together in a way where it's more palatable for the indigenous people, but it still is the conquering people's religion. Of course. Yeah, they tried to eradicate it. They did not believe in this tradition, but it was basically impossible. And so what they did was they blended it.

19:36Yeah, and it's a way to have a multi-day festival welcoming spirits back for a visit. It's kind of a nice thing. It's my favorite holiday of the entire year. And I think everyone around the world should honor and celebrate their loved ones who have died. This is Travel with Rick Steves. We're talking with journalist Luisa Navarro. And she's joining us today to talk about the Day of the Dead, or Dia de los Muertos, the Mexican tradition of honoring deceased loved ones. Luis has written the book Mexico's Day of the Dead, and it features beautiful pictures that capture the colorful celebration all across Mexico.

20:12Now, if we're planning a trip, and it happens to be during this season, what should we do? How should we be prepared? Where do we go? What will we see? I think a wonderful introduction to Dia de Muertos, if you've never even been to Mexico before, is to start in Mexico City. They do a parade there, which actually is not an indigenous or centuries-old tradition at all. The only reason the parade started was because of the James Bond film where they made the parade. And then Mexico City basically decided, we love this and we're going to buy the floats and the props and continue this tradition. But the reason I say that is I think it's a good way to start if you're feeling overwhelmed.

20:52And you can also visit the cemetery in Mexico City. There's a cemetery. So the cemeteries are sort of the ground zero of this kind of celebration? I mean, the cemetery is definitely where you're going to see Dia de Muertos in action, but it's not the only way to celebrate. And I will say that if you decide to visit a cemetery, you have to do it in a respectful way. So the best way to do that is to somehow connect with a family. And what I mean by that is, like, I would personally recommend that you were invited to the cemetery. There's also different ways to celebrate Dia de Muertos. It's actually celebrated all over Mexico City.

21:30Some parts are more traditional than others. For example, that's why we chose to cover specifically Mexico City, Oaxaca, and Michoacán, which is where my grandmother was from and which is very, very famous for Dia de Muertos. Is it a day or a season? I understand from your book that it's several days. It's several days. It starts typically October 31st around midnight. So that's when a lot of families do go to the cemeteries. But it just depends on where you are in Mexico because the traditions can vary. But it goes from October 31st, November 1st through November 2nd. So here in the United States, we start Halloween like decorating October 1st.

22:07I wouldn't say that Dia de Muertos is like that. And a tip I would say is get closer to October 31st when you travel so that you can make the most of your experience and actually see all the decorations. How can we be inspired by the Day of the Dead? Is it for the local people? What does it mean? Is it part of any religion or is it kind of parallel to people's religion or lack of religion? Yeah, I think it just depends on the family. I think that some people's altars are, you know, they do showcase more of Catholicism and you'll find a cross or a virgin displayed on it. Others are less religious.

22:44It just depends on the family. But it doesn't matter what religion you are or what your beliefs are, but to maybe pause once a year, have a dinner, you know, maybe display some photographs of your loved ones who have passed away. And just take that time to pause and share their stories among family and friends and honor them no matter where you live. So it's a way to keep lost loved ones' memories alive. Is that fundamentally what it is, would you say? 100%. It's a way for us to continue celebrating our loved ones who have died. My sister lost her son, and the most emotional, heartbreaking thing for her is a lot of people forget him, and she will never forget him.

23:24Yes. And with this, you keep that person's spirit alive, and you keep them with you. And apparently that's a balm. It's a soothing blessing for people who celebrate the Day of the Dead more than just a bunch of ghoulish skeletons and so on. It has that colorful indigenous vibe, but it's also a very practical thing to keep loved ones remembered. And, of course, they're gone, they're dead, and who knows what's next, but they can be remembered. And that's a beautiful thing for the people who've suffered that loss. 100%. I think the biggest gift that you can give to someone who has suffered a loss is to tell that person that you have not forgotten their loved one.

24:08or like your sister, her son. I'm going to give this book to my sister. My sister would love this. You know, something that maybe she would want to do an alter. And you'd be surprised, Rick, the number of people that have reached out to me who are not Mexican on direct message or email to say, I want to celebrate. Luisa Navarro is a first-generation Mexican-American raised in Dallas and author of the newly released photo book Mexico's Day of the Dead, a celebration of life through stories and photos. She's helping us right now on Travel with Rick Steves to better understand the beauty of Mexican culture and what goes into its distinctive Day of the Dead observances.

24:47Louisa's website and blog posts feature places to visit in Mexico, plus instructions for building your own altar for the Day of the Dead. It's at Mexicoinmypocket.com. And that's also the name of the gift shop that she runs on Court Street in Brooklyn, New York. Let's talk about what's in that altar because you actually have a build-your-own-ultra kind of chapter in the book. It's fascinating. Tell us what are the elements of the altar. There are so many different elements in my book. I think I cover over 22 elements. But some of the traditional elements are you want to provide a bienvenida or a welcome for the spirits.

25:27And so you want to make sure that you display their favorite foods, you display their favorite drinks, that you place the marigolds because the marigold scent is what guides the spirit to us. And the color is said to be the only color that they can see. So that's why marigolds are one of the most important elements. I like to decorate with little monarch butterflies in honor of my grandmother, who was from Michoacan, and where the Purepecha natives believe that due to the migration of these butterflies, which migrate all the way from Canada to Michoacan during this time of year, They believe it's our spirits coming back to visit us.

26:05And so I really like to put the monarch butterflies on my altar, even though it's not necessarily a traditional element. It's a great way to connect with my lineage and my heritage and that story. There are so many different elements that I get into in the book. And then do you redo the same? Do you save that altar and bring it out every year or do you leave it up all year or do you build it from scratch every year? It's a great question. Honestly, the first altar you build will feel very overwhelming, especially because you're dealing with those emotions. My first altar was nothing special, nothing fancy.

26:37I felt very overwhelmed. So I started with just simple pictures, marigolds, candles to light the path. And then what I've done is I have a little box and I do. I save all of the pictures of my relatives and I save all of these elements. And little by little, I've gotten better and better at learning these traditions. And I hope to encourage other people to not feel overwhelmed by the process and to know that they can really do what feels best in their heart and just build something with love. Like, that's really what it's about. This is Travel with Rick Steves. We're talking with Luisa Navarro.