812 What's New in Venice; The Senior Nomads Come Home; Food Tours in Europe

25:05And we can't do all 12 of them with our time, but I'd love just to go back and forth and let you share your favorites. Debbie, let's start with you. What's one of those points that you find is really an important takeaway from your travels? Well, we had to learn to treasure experiences over possessions. That is the key to our success. We sold our home, our boat, our cars, most of our stuff. We kept what fit into a 5x10 storage unit, which we've recently emptied and are having a big laugh about what was it that we've paid for all these years. There have been some treasures. But our philosophy became if you can't eat it, drink it, experience it, or get somewhere on it, don't buy it.

25:46I mean, the things that I thought about bringing home, it's like, oh, wait, I don't have a refrigerator, so I cannot put this magnet on the refrigerator. Eat it or drink it or experience it and don't buy it. I like that. Michael, what's one of your takeaways? I just think it's so important to be curious, stay curious, and to plan, but don't overplan, and allow room for serendipity. I just think that's so important. When serendipity knocks, if at all possible, say yes. Yes. I don't care if you're tired. I don't care if you were supposed to be here. When you've got an opportunity for this unscripted bit of travel magic, that's what you're going to remember.

26:23Yeah. A lot of people, they need a little kick in the butt to get curious. I mean, they go back to the same state park all their life. They go back to the same Disney World all their life. They go back to the same gambling capital all their life. They go back to the same beach resort in Mexico all their life. Well, they're afraid to go around the corner. But go around the corner. Go around the corner. Go the long way. Walk six blocks inland where local people can afford a house and get a tostada there, you know. There you go. So be curious. Debbie, another one from you. Lesson number four is learn the language of courtesy.

26:56And the lesson is basically, when words fail, kindness translates. So we have people that reach out to us who say, well, how can I travel the world? I don't speak another language. It's like a kindness, a gesture, a smile, a scribble on a piece of paper, or Google Translate will get it done. And I think what you'll find out is that people have said they don't speak English. If you're persistent and kind, they'll dust off their English. I've seen that after 30 years of running around Europe trying to make TV shows, and if we're polite, we get stuff done. And if we're not polite and we just stampede in there, you don't get anything done.

27:35It's just there's a decency. There's a respect. And on a practical side, we speak the world's linguistic common denominator, so most people speak a little more English than they would admit. That is an advantage. Absolutely. Michael, what's another one of yours? We kept a journal. We started for some unknown reason that first week, and we've been doing it ever since, a daily journal. We write a page every day. We fill 30 books, and we write our expenses for the day. And speaking of kind of souvenirs, we tape in receipts or tickets to various things and paste them into the book. So they're all lined up right now on a shelf, and it's really enjoyable to go back and look.

28:19So even if you're going to travel for a week or two weeks, in my opinion, keeping a journal is really helpful. That will be a treasure. Yeah. Debbie, what's another one of your takeaways from 12 years of traveling? We are much braver than we were when we started out. I'll tell you that. I think people start out traveling and there's the unknown and can we take the metro and will we be able to find our Airbnb and what time does the train leave? And the more you do it, the more you become comfortable with that. This takes me back to my very first days of teaching back when I was 22 years old. Every time I taught a class, I would start by having everybody write down the fears and apprehensions.

28:58I called it fears and apprehensions before their trip. And it occurred to me, people are creative warriors. They're just all alone in the kitchen thinking, what can I worry about on my upcoming trip? And it's just human nature. But once you get over there, we're braver than we thought. Yeah, and we were brave enough to seek out medical care when we needed it in foreign countries. We were brave enough to go into buildings that from the outside you would say, our Airbnb cannot be in this building. We're at the wrong address. And we weren't. And once you got past that graffiti-covered, banged-up door in Berlin, bam, you were in a beautiful, beautiful apartment.

29:32We're braver than we thought. I think that's really, really important. And a lot of Americans are more cowardly than they need to be right now. And I don't know why that is, but I'm tired of people saying have a safe trip. Bon voyage, that's what I would say. Michael, what's your next favorite point? So not everything is going to go perfectly on every single occasion, every single day. When you miss the train or you left your luggage in the wrong place or whatever happens to you, I think you just really need to pause and say, okay, that happened, and I'm in control of my response, and we're going to get through this.

30:10So I guess that means staying flexible is a good way to summarize that. Be flexible. Yeah. And I also think that people are always willing to help you if you're in a bit of distress. That's important, yeah. It is important, and it helps you get through a tough time because you can count on people being people, and people are kind. Well, and I think that was one of your points. You know, if you speak, what was it? Learn the language of courtesy and be flexible. I liken it to a skier. I like moguls, but they're no fun if you have stiff legs. You've got to bend your knees and enjoy the bumps, and the road is full of bumps.

30:41At our ages, I think no. Hey, Michael and Debbie, one of my favorite takeaways from your travels is your favorite thing to pack along. Tell me what that is and why. It was on a whim, but we packed our bed pillows. They are now souvenirs, if you will. They're flat. Yeah, but you can cuddle up to that pillow anywhere in the world. And wherever we laid those pillows, we called home. And so that was really special for us. Debbie and Michael Campbell, thank you so much for inspiring us, young and old. We're all going to be senior nomads someday, God willing, and we can take advantage of your experience and your love of travel.

31:18Thanks for having us. Thank you.

31:26Debbie and Michael Campbell tell us more about how they settled in to each new place they were living around the world during their 12 years as senior nomads. And they tell us where they'd like to go back. That's in an extra from today's interview, which you can hear with this week's show at ricksteves.com slash radio. One of the ways they got to know a city when they arrived was to take a local food tour. Up next, the founder of a network of local neighborhood food tours across Europe joins us to explain how they work to provide a taste of the places you're visiting. Kenny Dunn from Eating Europe joins us from Rome.

31:59That's next on Travel with Rick Steves. When traveling, you can learn about the culture through museums, and you can learn about it through the local taste treats and street food. And food tours, that's the kind of tours that teaches culture via the kitchen. They've become a hit for curious and adventurous people traveling anywhere these days. I've had tours lately in Medellin, Colombia, in Havana in Cuba, Marrakech, Morocco, Nice in the south of France, Porto in Portugal, and I've enjoyed so many tasty memories. A typical food tour takes, oh, about eight or so travelers on a four-hour route, stopping maybe by six or eight hole-in-the-wall shops, to sample local taste treats.

32:44I'm joined today by Kenny Dunn, and he's the founder of a company called Eating Europe, one of many hard-working tour companies doing these kind of tours, and I want to learn more about this experience, and Kenny's here to help us out. Kenny, thanks for being here. Thanks so much for having me. So I did my best to describe what a food tour is in general terms. Would you define that a little differently, or what do you think? I think you defined it quite well. I would maybe just emphasize a couple other points. I mean, I think one of the real benefits of doing a food tour, as opposed to spending that$50 or$100 on an expensive meal, is you're going to get to try, let's say, eight or 12 different bites of iconic dishes, some lesser known ones, visiting, as you said, six to eight different places.

33:30So if you only have a few days in a city, what a better way to maximize your time than doing a food tour. And you're already likely to spend close to that in a dinner where you're sitting down and having three courses or something. So it's kind of a splurge. On the other hand, I just think it's a multifaceted kind of experience that I really like. Now, how long have you been doing these tours? I've been doing these tours for 14 years. 14 years. Since 2011. And I don't remember food tours being a thing very much before that. When did they start and how have they grown? So the history of food tours, there's someone in New York, a company called Foods in New York.

34:08The owner is Todd. He's credited with starting them back in 1999. Okay, I wonder. So 26 years ago. So it's as old as this century. Yeah. I love the way you say Todd in New York because I get to meet all you tour operators and so on around Europe. And it's a small world and people know, oh, yeah, so-and-so in Berlin was the first one to do this. And, oh, those kind of tours, you know, that originated in London. And you got the double-deckers and you got the cooking schools and all this kind of stuff. And the point is people are more interested in experiences these days, aren't they? Absolutely, yeah.

34:41And I think a food tour, as you kind of talked about, it really gives you a taste of local life. You know, it weaves together so many different elements. So it's so much more than a food tour because it's part kind of historical tour, often lesser known sites, part culture. And then, of course, the main event is the food. Now, as you learn and develop the tours that you offer in your company, you must be aware of what all the competition is doing. And I'm fascinated by the competition because when I update my guidebook, I try several different food tours. And I'll kind of think which one structured best for my travelers.

35:18and I like the food tour that hits a number of little hole-in-the-wall artisan shops rather than sitting down to a nice white tablecloth restaurant and being served and talking about the more formal setting. It's not a qualitative difference because that can be really great also, but it's just what I'm looking for in a food tour. How would you explain the different kinds of food tours that somebody might encounter, different companies with a different philosophy of how we're going to share this experience? What distinguishes different companies? Yeah, I think one of the kind of distinguishing factors you just hit upon, some are more kind of grab-and-go, street food tours.

35:56Others are more of kind of a mix of sit-down locations with some kind of street food bites along the way. Some of the other big differences, first of all, are geography. A lot of food tours are based on neighborhoods. So different companies might focus on different neighborhoods or parts of a city. And then, of course, you have different thematic tours. You have companies doing chocolate tours or pastry tours, some that are focused more on the drinkables you mentioned. In London, gin, or in Edinburgh it might be whiskey. So those are some of the defining qualities. It's a good way to tackle a neighborhood.

36:34Like when I think of Rome, I think of Monte, I think of Trastevere, and I think of Testaccio. These are three great neighborhoods, whether you're on a food tour or not, and they've all got a pride. They've all got a sort of a cool food culture, a lot of small business, entrepreneurial people. Monty might be more new school and Testacio might be more old school. Absolutely. And it's just, you're smiling when I talk about this because it's just in London, East London is the place for a food tour, I would think. In Barcelona, you got the Boqueria Market, which is just too slammed with tourists now.

37:08And I think food tour companies are fleeing that because you can't even stand up in the market. It's so crowded. but trying to find the Boqueria in a less crowded, less touristy zone, which exists. Santa Catarina Market is just kind of the obvious one and the others beyond the cathedral. So when you are shopping around for a food tour, you look for the neighborhood you want. You look for, I like to know how many stops. The more stops is the better. I want some exercise. I want to be walking. Will people generally get an expate, an American or a Brit or an Aussie speak in English with an English-speaking tourist or will they get locals?

37:42I think it's really a mix, and I think both can be great. Your local tour guide is going to be able to tell you how the city has changed, maybe reference their grandmother's dish, their grandmother's famous pasta dish. On the other hand, an expat will have an easier connection with you culturally. Absolutely. An expat can give you that kind of expat perspective. And I found, I mean, I am an expat, but I found with some of our expat guides, our American guests really like that perspective because it kind of gives them that, you know, that view of what, as an American, you might experience if you were to move to that city and experience it.

38:25This is Travel with Rick Steves. We're talking about food tours with Kenny Dunn. Kenny started doing food tours about 15 years ago when he moved to Rome, and today his company, Eating Europe, offers tours in 20 different European cities. When are you most welcome? Because I can think of going to the... I did a food tour and was in Porto in Portugal with a wonderful market there, and it's very crowded, it's beloved, and the food tour company made a point to go at an off hour where we could get the attention of the artisans and the entrepreneurs that would actually have a little sardine spread for us, waiting for us, and a little table and eight stools, and he'd entertain us for 15 minutes.

39:05But he couldn't do that at some times. Do you have to jockey around their schedules? Yeah, you absolutely. I mean, it's very much a partnership. Many of the vendors are food partners we've been working with for eight or nine, ten years, depending on the city, and it's exactly that, trying to do it so that it works for them and works around kind of their regular local customers. And like you said, in Porto, the magic is when you can integrate them into the tour and they can explain their dishes. And we've got to remember those artisans, those merchants, their dad or mother probably had that same stall.

39:44This is their bread and butter. This is their passion. They care, to be honest, I would imagine, about their local clientele And they're not going to compromise that for some food tour with a bunch of Americans looking for a sardine, you know. On the other hand, if there's a time where they could work it in, it's great. It's a little good business for them. And it's a wonderful way to share the culture. Absolutely. And some of them, you do have to remember, I mean, we visit a butcher in Rome named Cesare. I mean, he never had tourists visiting him. And there we are telling his story, talking about his father and his grandfather.

40:15We show a photo when he was six years old standing next to his dad. So for him, it was the first time he was actually getting those tours. So, you know, it can work in those ways as well. One thing about Americans is we don't have this rich love of traditional food, regional food, seasonal food, grandma's food, quite as vividly and enthusiastically as a lot of cultures. and it's just great to experience it. Whether you're on a food tour or not, you go to a vineyard or you go to a winery and you've got this man who's been giving people samples of his wine for 40 years and he's doing it with the same gusto he did when he started just because people love their food culture.

41:00I'm wondering, Kenny, I'm always European-centric, is this a global thing? Are there as many food tours in the Pacific Rim or in Africa or, you know, Latin America? It's definitely global. There are food tours on every continent with the exception of maybe Antarctica. But I think, you know, they are for sure more popular and more prominent in North America and Europe and Asia than, let's say, Africa or Latin America or South America, let's say. It's part of my routine when I go to a place. I just want to have a food tour for many reasons. I get to know a local person. I learn about the food, which helps me in my research.

41:40I learn skills for enjoying that culture for the rest of my visit. And I connect with these artisans. So when I'm going to a new country, if I'm interested in experiencing that food culture, let's say I'm going to Morocco or I'm going to Costa Rica or I'm going to Japan, how would I learn about food tours? Where do you look? Well, looking for food tours, I think it's like looking for a lot of the other kind of activities and experiences you may be searching for on your vacation. You know, you're going on Google, you're reading food blogs, podcasts these days, as well as guidebooks, of course. I'm going to list a city, and I'm just going to ask you to say, when I say the city, if you were going to start up a company, a tour there, what you'd be sure to have?

42:28What would be the ideal food stop, all right? We'll just really find this, I mean, really, really quick and easy. Amsterdam. Dutch apple pie. And there's a place called Cafe Pope Island that's been open since 1652, serving that apple pie. Dutch apple pie. I love it. London. London. I'm going to take you to a place called Bagel Bake, which is in the East End. We talked about the East End. And it's the last remaining bagel shop from when that neighborhood used to be a Jewish neighborhood. And your guide would probably give you the Jewish heritage. Absolutely. And they would, I think I know the place, it's always mobbed.

43:04and your guide would know how to come at the right time and get to cut the line and say, I've got eight people up front. It is open 24 hours, seven days a week. Barcelona. Barcelona, I'm going to introduce you to a bomba, which is a potato croquette filled with a pork ragu with the potato brava sauce on top. Is that different than a croquetta? Yeah, much bigger, much bigger, much more. It's almost a meal in itself. Oh, that's great. What's it called again? A bomba. Bomba. Rome. Rome? Oh, man. Probably soupli. So a fried risotto ball filled with mozzarella. It sounds like it's similar to the thing you just talked about.

43:41Very similar, yeah. Maybe because I was thinking bomba, but they're both two of my favorites. Paris. Paris, I'm going to introduce you to something which is the marriage of a croissant and an eclair. Huh. And it's phenomenal. It's at a place called Leclerc des Genies. and this one pastry chef came up with this combination and it's just a dive for it. You know, I took a food tour in Paris and just a simple croissant was such an education to hear somebody who really knows what makes a good croissant. Because croissants are going to be part of your French experience, whether you like it or not. It's breakfast.

44:16Yeah. And to know a good one, because you've got bakeries that get the croissant of the year in Paris and it's for real. Oh, yeah, it is. And if you go to that, if you have a croissant there, you go, oh, now I get it. Yeah, and to me, A food tour, some of it is discovering new foods, and some is going and, you know, you already have in mind that iconic food, and you're getting one of the best versions of it. Cannoli is a good example. Exactly. Cannoli can be horrible. Yeah. But if you go to Sicily and do go to a great place, cannoli, baby. Right now I'm looking at you, and you just kind of, do you need a moment alone here?

44:53Okay, Athens. Athens, there's a place where you can learn how to make your own gyro, Slovakia gyro. Oh, that's, yeah, like a— Lamb meat. Lamb meat in a greasy bun. Pita. Well, pita, yeah. With a little bit of salad and sauce, right? Right. Tomatoes, some tzatziki sauce. I love that. That was my go-to when I was a teenage backpacker. Oh, yeah. Me too. I just called it a souvlaki. Yeah. But what's the real name? No, Slovakia, yeah. That's it. But in the States, you would know it as a gyro. There you go. Okay, good. Yeah. Oh. Yeah, so good. And to know. There is a good example. You would have your food expert, your food guide, and everybody's going to have a soufflaki.

45:34It's the only thing you can have a$3 lunch. Here you go. But you'll know the differences, the fine points. And how to tell a good one from a knock. Lisbon. Lisbon. I mean, another great example. You think about, in Portugal, you think of custard tarts, right? Pastel de nata. Oh, pastel de nata. But to go to a place that makes 7 ,000 a day and you taste how fresh and different and to learn about the little things you can look for, like when it's caramelized on top. And that's what you take away. Not just the flavor, but you know how to choose the right one as you go throughout your time in Lisbon.

46:11I believe the pastel donata is becoming trendy in London right now. You see a lot of them in London. But it's not the same. It's not the same. No, no, no. Which place are you thinking of in Lisbon when you closed your eyes and smiled? There's a place called Montegaria, which is in Lisbon. It's up there in the Barrio Alto. Yeah, and they make like— And they just crank them out. Crank them out. You can see them making them right in front of you. You've got 50 of them coming out of the oven every five minutes. And that's fun, too, to see them filling up the little cups. That's my go-to spot right there.

46:45Kenny Dunn is joining us from his home in Rome right now on Travel with Rick Steves to clue us in on the number, the growing number, of food tour options that can help orient us to cities as we travel. Kenny founded Eating Europe back in 2011 and now has a team of guides offering food tours in nearly two dozen cities from Reykjavik to Athens. Kenny also weighs in on where to find the best fish and chips in London and the best beer in Prague and Dublin. Look for his blog posts at eatingeurope.com. This is so fun to be able to just bounce ideas off of you and for you to share your joy with us. I'm just going to mention a few memorable moments I've had on food tours, and I'd like to get your take on it.

47:27Sure. Okay, tin can cuisine in Portugal. What is that? You go to a restaurant, and everything's out of a little sardine. And they're so beautiful, right? It's a work of art. I mean, they're work of art. Yeah, you can bring them home and just keep them on your shelf just for decoration. So that is something definitely to check out. Portuguese, you got to do it. Humble crumble, London. Ah, humble crumble. they've got two locations. They make the most beautiful, speaking of decorative, gorgeous, the most beautiful crumbles, little pies, and they're just a work of art. Is it a one-off at the Spitalfields Market?

47:59There's one in Spitalfields and one in the Borough Market. Okay, so Humble Crumble. I'm sort of skeptical about these trendy cupcake kind of places, you know, but this, Humble Crumble, it's sort of like a layer cake of sweet delights. Yeah, fresh fruits. If you like crumble, if you like berry crumble and you like yogurt and, oh, baby, cheese plates in France. Yeah. I mean, the cheese in Paris or really anywhere in France, I mean, it's just on another level. I mean, to go into some of these cheese, well, you can go into a cheese shop and take it away or obviously sit down in a restaurant. I love when a food guide comes out because they have a whole platter.

48:38Yeah. Everybody's waiting anxiously out in the street. And then your guide comes over and everybody, oh, she goes, there's three different kinds. you can do this, that, and this, and don't miss the gargonzola. And when it's done well, they kind of guide you through it. I want you to start with this, then that. Exactly. Sauerkraut in Vienna. Vienna doesn't have too much street food, but the bratwurst with the sauerkraut. In the Nosh Market, there's a guy who does sauerkraut. He's got all these old barrels, these wooden barrels, and he calls them vitamin bombs. They have a vitamin bomb. They are.

49:07There's nothing healthier than some sauerkraut. Except a macaron in Paris. Yeah. Healthier for your attitude, maybe. I'm not into gross food, but I had brains in Marrakesh. How was that? I think I got sick the next day. I thought you could say you had brains in Marrakesh. For the rest of my life, I mean, I'll do it. I'll take it. And what about alcohol? What's a fun alcoholic drink? Let's go back to Portugal, ginginia. Perfect, because ginginia is a cultural experience also. Yeah, absolutely. It's a little hole in the wall that has people who look like they've spent their whole life in a little hole in the wall, drinking some sweet cherry wine or something.

49:43Some colorful characters at the Jijinia show. Jijinia. So these are all examples of slices of cultures, insights into cultures, and you can get it in a number of ways. The most important thing, I think, is to have that attitude that I want to try something new. I just want to get out of my comfort zone. I don't need to like it. I just want to try it. And then what's your batting average? Maybe you're batting 400. Okay, 4 out of 10 nibbles, you'll love and you'll go back for the rest of your life. I find most people are batting like 800. 800. Yeah, they really, you try these things and you come away and you're like, wow, I can't believe I liked it, but I did.

50:18Or I can't believe I've been coming here for years and I never tried Persebis. Yeah. Barnacles in Portugal. Lampredoto. Lampredoto. The four stomach in Florence. Okay, Kenny Dunn, thanks so much. And I was going to say happy travels, but I'm just going to say bon appetit. Bon appetito. Travel with Rick Steves is produced at Rick Steves Europe in Edmonds, Washington by Tim Tatton, Kaz Moore Hall, and Donna Bardsley. Andrew Wakeling and Sherry Court upload the shows to our website, and our theme music is by Jerry Frank. You can find links to our guests and listen to a podcast version of the show or search the archives.

50:56It's all at ricksteves.com slash radio. We'll see you next week with more Travel with Rick Steves. Monday Night Travel. It's a weekly travel party, and you're invited. Zoom in and have some fun learning about Europe's art, history, culture, and food over drinks and snacks. It's free, it's an adventure, and be careful, it can be addictive. Join me and my travel buddies over Zoom for Monday Night Travel. We're live every week, starting at 6 p.m. Pacific Time, 9 p.m. Eastern. Register at ricksteves.com, and BYOB.