823 The View from Europe; Stonecutter’s Tour of Europe

10:55Rick Steves:There's a lot of good causes that need leadership. And I mean, it probably gets tiresome to have America providing the leadership, but a lot of times if America's not there, there won't be leadership and you won't have that momentum. But I know on a lot of initiatives that I care about, if America's there in the world food program to fight hunger, other people will get along. If America's there setting the standards for fighting climate change, the rest of the world will get along. If America's not there, a lot of other countries might kind of think, why should I be there? And that's not helpful if these are worthwhile causes.

11:28Richard Rhodes:But obviously there's a question of budget, right, of money. United States were coming with a lot of money.

11:33Rick Steves:Well, now we have a president that looks at things in terms of money, and that's kind of the problem, unless you care about money and that's your thing, in which case, yeah, you guys spend more money now. It's your turn.

11:44Richard Rhodes:When we talk about Greenland, obviously, no, we do not have just one dog sled, right? We do have more than just that.

11:50Rick Steves:But I imagine you're spending quite a bit of money on your defense. Jorah from the Netherlands, any thoughts on that?

11:57Richard Rhodes:Yeah, maybe to add on that wake-up call that we just spoke about, it is in a way also something very positive for Europe that we do look at our own defenses, that we do think about what is our role at the table. And it might be in a way almost good what was happening, which is very controversial because it isn't. Let me make that clear. But for European countries, you see that they're getting closer together. You see that some of Trump's closer allies, if we talk about Maloney, or that they start to show a little bit of other, you know, tone of voice. And for Europe, that is quite good. So there are always slight upsides to take out of what's happening now.

12:55Shalala-la-la-la

13:00Rick Steves:We'll ask our guests about the role of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, NATO, in just a bit, since it's been the target of President Trump's criticism. And we'll hear what right-wing populism is looking like in their countries. A little later in the hour, artist Richard Rhodes brings us a stonecutter's tour of Europe. He'll recommend sites both famous and off the beaten track, where you can view masterful stonework that endures through the ages. You're listening to Travel with Rick Steves. It's always been my priority to talk with the people I meet in my travels, to hear how they see the world, and to find out what they're discussing with each other in the cafes.

13:40Rick Steves:It's in that spirit that we've invited three tour guide friends with us today on Travel with Rick Steves. We're getting their perspectives on how the U.S. government has been changing its relationship with the rest of the world and what that looks like from where they live in the European Union. Our guests are Katja Willebrand, Jorah Schipper, and Nina Sefuzati. You guys, what about NATO? Ever since the Greenland situation, Americans have been thinking about NATO. You know, our president thinks, well, NATO's not sure if it's a great idea. How important is NATO to you, Nina, in Denmark?

14:16Richard Rhodes:Well, Denmark joined as one of the first countries right after the Second World War. and like Norway also. And that's one of the reasons why I think the situation with Greenland is so painful for Danes, right? Obviously, it's also a painful history. I mean, we're not the good guys in this story either, right? With Greenland, we colonized Greenland, et cetera. But NATO has always been, I think there's always been a positive kind of attitude to NATO, right? Because after the Second World War, we didn't want that to happen again.

14:48Rick Steves:So is there a sense that it's unusual for Europe to be generally at peace with itself as it has been for, what, 80 years now? I mean, of course, you had Yugoslavia breaking up and you've got Russia and Ukraine, but I think thanks to this new order created with United States leadership, I must say, after World War II, we've got unprecedented peace in Europe. But suddenly, we're broken up out of this little nap and we have NATO threatened.

15:14Richard Rhodes:Well, I mean, yeah, to us, NATO, So for West Germany, of course, that was a big and important thing. I mean, the threat was right there. And although there was then criticism into the 1980s with the missiles in West Germany that were positioned there, we would be like right at the front. But after Putin aggressed Ukraine, NATO become very important for us again. And the fact that Finland joined, that is so crucial for the protection of the Baltic states. So we felt like, OK, NATO is becoming more important. And now it is being undermined so directly. It's very, very confusing and very unsettling for Germans, especially for people who have experienced the old West Germany.

15:53Rick Steves:People ask me when they want to think about taking our Poland tour. Well, is it safe with Russia right there? And my response is Poland is part of NATO. If it's not safe to go to Poland, it's not safe to go anywhere outside of our country because we got a serious war going on, you know. The news is so important where people get their news. in my country. It used to be Walter Cronkite. He was the truth. It used to be the New York Times. That was the truth. But now half of our society looks here for their reality and half of our society looks there. To me, it's a big problem. In your society, very quickly, do you have a split media or do people understand their Spiegel is it, you know?

16:32Rick Steves:Katja in Germany.

16:33Richard Rhodes:So as it comes to newspapers, we have a broad range of center, center left, center right. You can get excellent information online as well. We have also state-funded television, but then of course through social media and internet media, Putin is very strong, very good at it, focuses a lot on undermining the German information system. So more and more, especially younger people, get away from... Away from the

16:59Rick Steves:legacy media, we call it. Yes. And Germany paid a price for people going down the wrong propaganda road 100 years ago.

17:07Richard Rhodes:Exactly. One should remember.

17:10Rick Steves:Nina, what's the press like in Denmark for the Danes?

17:12Richard Rhodes:Well, I think it's the same thing. We have a variety of newspapers and online news, etc. I think that what we call the public radio is pretty good. I would have to say we are very trustful people. That's the thing about Scandinavians.

17:28Rick Steves:The Scandinavians, they trust their institutions. They have faith in their institutions, even if they're not perfect. But I think there's a correlation between faith in institutions and good governance and a content society. To me, Scandinavians are inspirational that way. Jodor, what about the press in the Netherlands?

17:47Richard Rhodes:Yeah, the press in the Netherlands is working in the same way as you would see with the Danes and the Germans. We have the national television, and that's paid by the taxpayers. But there are many ways to get your information left and right online as well. What is a little bit scary is that you see more people doubting the national news and saying that they are starting to choose a site, pick a site. But still, there are many platforms where you can get your information and many make it more rational and stay with the facts.

18:19Rick Steves:I think it's interesting that all three of you, Germany, Denmark, and the Netherlands, have state-paid non-commercial media. We're on public media right now, but our government doesn't like to pay for it, so we have to have pledge drives. We recognize the value, but we have to ask people, do you appreciate a thoughtful media that's not commercial, but it's publicly funded? with donations, whereas in your society you've just decided to cover it with taxpayer revenues. Is that correct?

18:47Richard Rhodes:Yeah. Yeah, but it is going down. You see that the governments, the more right-wing they get, the less they want to fund it, and that's a dangerous sign.

18:56Rick Steves:We're getting a European view on the tensions of our times right now on Travel with Rick Steves from three European tour guide friends. Jorah Scheper is from the Netherlands, Danish-born Nina Sefuzati lives in France, and German-born Katja Willebrand lives in northern Italy. What surprises a lot of Americans is that Europe has a similar kind of division. Can you give me a quick rundown in your countries what's happening with a populist right-wing uprising? And I know in Germany, that's quite a thing lately, Katja.

19:25Richard Rhodes:Yes, we have a party that is the AfD, Alternative for Germany, it is called. It is very anti-migration and potentially anti-constitutional. We have in our democratic system a lot of mechanisms to protect democracy. that can lead to even banning a party. But this party is having in the polls like 26%. And it is, of course, a questionable democratic procedure to ban a party that gets 26%. Yeah, there's an interesting problem. They are brutally aggressive in their speech. They are potentially aiming at dismantling our democratic structures. They're inspired by the Trump administration, although they do not position themselves close to Trump because of things like Greenland and this bitter insult on the Afghanistan war.

20:12Rick Steves:Oh, yeah. But they probably are reading the same kind of playbook that fascists used in Germany 100 years ago.

20:18Richard Rhodes:Absolutely.

20:19Rick Steves:And you know what's been fascinating for me is all these years I'm fascinated by German history and I love to go to these docu-centers where they learn from fascism and the nightmare that you had with the Holocaust. And there's a lot of artifacts from Hitler that are locked up and kept away like they're poison, ready to take over. They don't want to have any excuse for this sleeping giant of fear of immigrants and racism or whatever.

20:46Richard Rhodes:You've been to the site where Hitler's bunker would have been. It's a car park. There's nothing to be seen. There's nothing to memorize. So where did Hitler die? Can we have a rally there? No memorial. Don't even try. But on the other hand, the AfD is very clear that they think we have spoken enough about the negative experiences of the past. children don't need to go to see concentration camp memorial sites.

21:08Rick Steves:So they're changing history like we're changing history a little bit. And they're anti-democratic, it looks like, and they got 25 % of the vote. Exactly. Welcome to the club.

21:17Richard Rhodes:Thank you, Rick. You can say the same as I mentioned. I don't know if it's a good thing.

21:21Rick Steves:Nina, in Denmark, is there a right way in populism?

21:24Richard Rhodes:Yeah, like everywhere else, right? And also inspired by Trump. And what you can see is the prime minister, a woman, by the way, just saying, the Social Democratic Party, who has been in power for decades, right? Even the prime minister is kind of taking up little phrases from the extreme right wing, to get votes.

21:46Rick Steves:Just to get votes.

21:46Richard Rhodes:Honey, honeybond, you're going, please don't do that because you don't need to say that just to get votes, please, right? Can we stick to our ideals and our, you know?

21:55Rick Steves:Yeah, and I like the constructive discourse between liberals and conservatives. I think it makes our society stronger. And I love an intellectually consistent sort of principled response to things. The right wing, in other words, is not necessarily anti-democratic or fascist. But when you get these, here's four no-nos in my mind that would indicate a fascist-style government is on the rise. Reject election outcomes. Undermine independent courts and media. Use nationalism to target minorities. And concentrate executive power, more power to the executive. I'm seeing that kind of movement in Europe.

22:35Rick Steves:I'm seeing that kind of movement on this side of the Atlantic. You're from the Netherlands. Yes. The Netherlands are famously liberal, but at the same time, very strong right-wing part of your society.

22:46Richard Rhodes:Yeah, definitely. The Netherlands has been having a more right-wing, extreme right-wing for the last 12, 15 years. Our famous right-wing person is Geert Wilders, also white hair, anti-Muslim. And in a way, he was at the early or he was creating almost populism in of its modern time with misinformation, like alternative facts or, oh, that fact is your opinion. He started using that already 12 years ago and he was very good at that. Alternative facts. Well, alternative facts. That's your opinion. Yeah. A fact is your opinion. The world is round. Well, that's your opinion. Exactly. And that worked for a lot of people.

23:29Richard Rhodes:He's also a person that would promise lower rents, lower this, lower that. And, well, couldn't make that true. And his party at some point did win. But the other party said, you will not be our prime minister. And that never happened. And it doesn't mean that by that everything is fine and good. Still, you know, we're looking for more balance at the entire shift of Europe going towards the right. but we luckily also see good signs of how democracy works at its fullest.

24:02Rick Steves:You guys, if you were to just, you've all got an extreme populism, I think we can call it, that's threatening democracy, I think it's fair to say. If you could just think four words that explain why people would vote this way in your society, what is motivating 25 % of your society or 49 % of my society to vote this way? Katja, can you think of a couple words that are...

24:27Richard Rhodes:Well, I think lots of emotions like anger, fear, disinformation.

24:33Rick Steves:That's interesting. Disinformation. That was a Hitler specialty too, I think. Nina from Denmark.

24:39Richard Rhodes:Finding a scapegoat or scapegoats, right? You know, like diverting your attention from the actual problems into immigration. You see that in Denmark? Oh, yeah. Like in America, you know, illegal immigrants, etc. There is that discussion also. But what I just see is that, is that really the main problem for us right now? Is that immigration?

25:02Rick Steves:Well, to me, there's fear and there's anger, and there's also things that people want to say that they can't say, and if they can get a politician who's got charisma to say it for them, who can scare people into being this or that, suddenly you've got a hero. Jorah?

25:19Richard Rhodes:I think to add on to the problems, one thing is also, it's almost getting into xenophobia. Problems of that within the whole of Europe are housing and building forward on scapegoating. There are not enough houses because of immigration or mostly asylum seekers or refugees. And that makes people scared. And that's one of the strongest emotions. Like everything is taken away from me that I had. And that adds on to the misinformation.

25:46Rick Steves:So we have something called culture war. Wedge issues. It's just an easy way to start a fight. And I think one of them is climate change. You're a Dutchman. 20 % of your land is below sea level. If the sea rises, it's big news. Do you see climate as an issue in your country, or is everybody on board with the need to spend billions of euros to fortify your dikes?

26:08Richard Rhodes:The latter. It is everyone, doesn't matter left or right, water is the biggest enemy of the Netherlands. Not another country, it's water.

26:16Rick Steves:There's no fancy talking from either extreme that can confuse people about the reality of this. Absolutely not.

26:23Richard Rhodes:That's very clear. We do have separate elections for that, the water elections, and that can go either way.

26:28Rick Steves:Oh, so you can break it out. Yes. That's probably just, if you put it into one big, beautiful bill, you might have to vote against it.

26:35Richard Rhodes:You might. You might vote something different. It's how is the money used to keep our feet dry, but that we have to keep our feet dry, that's quite clear.

26:44Rick Steves:We have to keep our feet dry. We say, drill, baby, drill, and you say we have to keep our feet dry. This is Travel with Rick Steves. We're getting to know a view of the United States from Europe right now, and I'm joined by three guides, Nina, Jorah, and Katja, from Denmark, Germany, and the Netherlands. Very quick answer. If Americans are thinking of going to Europe now, considering how, from a European point of view, we have betrayed them politically, what is the impact on an American tourist in your country because of the news, Katja, in Germany?

27:20Richard Rhodes:Well, I would say confidently that we love our American individuals that come over as much as we did before. Also, having had ourselves the experience of having been welcome after misbehaving badly. That's a good way to put it.

27:35Rick Steves:That's a very nice thought. Thank you for that. Nina in Denmark.

27:40Richard Rhodes:I would say also that if you don't wear a big red baseball cap with something written on it. What I tell my American friends, I say, when you come, don't be surprised. People would go up to you if they understand you, Americans, and say, what is going on? Yeah, yeah. I mean, they want to know. They're curious. But they say, just explain to me because we don't understand it. It's messy. It's, you know, things coming out every day, every day.

28:05Rick Steves:American, the one silver lining I find about the news lately is Americans are more interesting now than they were 10 years ago in Europe because we've got a lot to explain. And people like us. That's the default. We do. Yeah.

28:18Richard Rhodes:And Jorah from the Netherlands. Well, definitely everyone is welcome and definitely Americans as well. I think what's very important for Americans to know is that people in Europe are aware that everyone thinks differently. And especially, you know, in the second term of Trump, people know that not everyone votes that. And it's not an attack anymore. Like Nina said, it's more a question of what is happening. But everyone is welcome. but just expect a very liberal place.

28:48Rick Steves:Yeah, that's a good point. Europe is not radical fringe. Europe is what it has always been, a little more community-oriented, a little more socialistic. And what is center feelings in Europe is kind of what is more liberal feelings in the United States.

29:05Richard Rhodes:Yeah, you could see, and I'll talk about the Netherlands, that maybe even our most right-wing party might be like towards the center of Democrats. So there's a different shift, and you see that in some other countries, but for the Netherlands, that's definitely.

29:22Rick Steves:Katja, Nina, Jorah, thank you so much for joining us. I want to finish with your take on what's fascinating to me. There are 20-some countries that have the euro, and you can't put the French national bird or the king of Denmark on the money. It's got to be something that all 20 countries can embrace. And if you look at the paper currency in Europe, it all has bridges. Katja, what does that mean?

29:48Richard Rhodes:Well, it means that the connection between the countries is there, and it's also being built all the time. It's like something that needs to be done all the time.

29:59Rick Steves:And, Nina, I know the EU, the European Union, always makes money for the Erasmus program, which subsidizes and pays for teachers and students to study and work in other countries within the EU. It's kind of like building bridges, isn't it?

30:13Richard Rhodes:Totally. And remember what's on the other side of the building.

30:15Rick Steves:What's that? Doors. Doors. Doors through walls. Through walls. So if we want to build a wall, Europe wants to build a door to go through it. Totally. Jorah, any thoughts on that from the Netherlands perspective?

30:27Richard Rhodes:Yeah, definitely. It is within Europe you can see those bridges as also we're working towards each other. As a fun fact about those bridges, because they were based on real bridges, but they don't exist, until a little town, Spijkenisse, close to Rotterdam, Netherlands, built them all. They're tiny bridges, but they do exist.

30:47Rick Steves:That is beautiful. It's beautiful that they don't exist because they're for everybody. And it's beautiful that you, Dutch, had to build them yourself.

30:54Richard Rhodes:That is so cool. That town didn't have much, and they were like, let's build that. And yeah, building on Erasmus, one of the things that he said is like, the whole world is your fatherland.

31:03Rick Steves:And it is. One of my favorite news sites in Europe is the Smiling Bench in front of the Nobel Prize building in Oslo, and you cannot sit on that bench because it's shaped like a smile without coming together. And in front of it, etched into that pavement in Oslo, is the phrase by Nelson Mandela, the most powerful weapon is to talk to each other. And that's what we've been doing today. Jorah Scheper from the Netherlands, Nina Sefusati from Denmark, and Katja Willenbrand from Germany. Dank u wel, tuzen tak, and dankeschön. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you, Rick. Thank you, Rick. Thank you.

31:39Richard Rhodes:Thank you.

31:43Rick Steves:The timeless quality of great stonework on buildings and monuments throughout Europe can make you see the world a little differently. Stonemason and artist Richard Rhodes directs us to fine stones turned into masterpieces. That's next on Travel with Rick Steves. After studying music and theater in London, American Richard Rhodes found his way to Italy searching for a connection with the medieval world. He found it in the Freemasons' Guild of Siena, where he convinced an old master mason to teach him the secret techniques they've been practicing for hundreds of years. He became the first non-Italian to be taught by them in centuries.

32:21Rick Steves:Turns out, Richard was among the last apprentices the guild would train before it disbanded. Richard learned the same sacred geometries and rules of bondwork that medieval cathedral builders and Renaissance artists used to create the masterpieces the world travels to see today. Richard's back with us on Travel with Rick Steves to recommend his favorite monuments and ancient sites across Europe, where we can admire the masterful stonework of the ages in a whole new light. Welcome back, Richard. Thank you, Rick. I appreciate it. You know, ever since the Stone Age, people have been carving and building with stone.

32:55Rick Steves:And what is it about stone that makes it worth all the trouble through the ages to build with?

33:01Richard Rhodes:When I look back at civilizations, many of them, you know, there's an impulse that is universal. We turn to stone when we want to express something that will outlive us. It's this elemental material. It's a legacy material, you know, which is why we use it to honor the dead. We build monuments to things we care about because it goes on and on and on. And an interesting fact about this, granite weathers an inch in 10 ,000 years. So my sculptures that I make, you know, unless it takes a direct nuclear hit, you know, are going to be speaking to future generations.

33:41Rick Steves:You must be in a mindset where you think about that with every whack of your hammer on it.

33:45Richard Rhodes:I do think about it. And I think it's why I put up with this very difficult, slow, dirty, heavy, hard medium, because I'm really trying to express something to the future about our times.

33:59Rick Steves:Now, in your book, you cover great stone buildings around the globe. Many of them are in Europe. A few of your examples resonated with me. And I'd like to understand why. I mean, I love these places, but I don't really know why. And perhaps I can better appreciate that by understanding these underlying stone rules that you talk about in your book. So these are a few of my favorite, most impactful stone-building experiences in Europe, and maybe you can help me understand how each of these touch me. We'll just kind of blitz through these because we don't have a lot of time, but, you know, everybody loves the Basilica of the Sagrada Familia in Barcelona.

34:39Rick Steves:It's under construction to this day, and it's been a lot of work. We pay a high price to get in, and that goes to help fund the construction. What is it about the stone in that building that gets us so close to God?

34:53Richard Rhodes:I think that's a wonderful example because you really are witnessing the evolutionary process of a great, great work of art that takes generations of people and effort and money and time. and the accumulation of that physical energy, but also psychic energy, right? It's coming together. And when we're walking through it and experiencing that magnificent building, somehow it's resonating in the structure itself. We feel it, right? It's very impactful.

35:28Rick Steves:The inspiration was organic, and the construction is organic. And, of course, Antony Gaudí, it's his church, but the big, playful, wonderful, do-si-do architectural dance is the generations of brilliant architects after that, and all of the energy is going into it. And when we go to Barcelona, that's a must-see. Another site in Europe that's very impactful for me is that stone bridge in Mostar in Bosnia. And it's got this wonderful, it's like one arch that comes to a pyramid point. And for me, it represents tectonic plates, but tectonic plates in the form of people, of societies, of Islam and Christendom and people from the east and people from the west.

36:11Rick Steves:And this is where they come together. What is it about that bridge that touches people?

36:17Richard Rhodes:Yeah, I think you're on to something there. I think, you know, in the same way that Istanbul for many years was the bridge between the east and the west, I think that the bridge at Mostar is exactly one of those places. And somehow the shape of it, the sort of the sense of it really captures that visually. But it's also a great example of what are known as, you know, in the book I discuss as the sacred rules of bondwork or the rules of bondwork, which references these old hidden rules. And that's a very, very technical bridge. So those rules—

36:56Rick Steves:It must be because it's a huge— It's a huge expanse. It's a feral vault, isn't it? It's a round vault with a pointed top.

37:03Richard Rhodes:Yeah, so the rail is sort of pointed, which gives it that shape, but it's a true, it's a true large. And imagine that those were the state secrets of the day. So to create that bridge was the proprietary knowledge of somebody's kingdom, and they could build that, which connected those two places in a way that maybe the next kingdom couldn't. And so this is how the special status of masons as the builder architects, the sort of the premier free citizens of the time, really...

37:33Rick Steves:They're the voice and the protector of society through the ages. These masons that could implement their visions in stone. I was in a theater in Mostar in Bosnia, and tragically, you know, this bridge was pulverized by one of the warring sides. And they kept throwing bombs at it until finally it fell into the river. and I was in this theater and they were videoing it and finally, after day after day of bombardment, that precious stone structure collapsed into the river and of course it was tragic but to hear the anguish and the sadness of the local people as they watched that, I'll never forget it reminding me that bridge was more important than a pile of stones.

38:14Richard Rhodes:Well, and that's one of the great mysteries, right? We assemble these piles of stones to create these masterpieces and they end up becoming tremendously meaningful. I mean, look at Notre Dame, right? The whole world grieved. I felt profound grief. And, you know, I mean, and I wasn't alone. I mean, we all felt it. It was...

38:35Rick Steves:People who weren't French, who weren't Christians, who didn't care about history, they felt it. Exactly right. Wow, so it bridges things. You know, the Acropolis in Athens is no accident. It's inspired people and philosophers philosophers and societies for eons, and the crowning structure on the Acropolis is the Parthenon. That must have been the ultimate building of ancient Greece.

39:00Richard Rhodes:I think it's really one of the ultimate buildings of civilization in the world, ever. And I go into it pretty deeply in my book because it's a great example of one of the sacred rules, you know, make it sweet to the eye, which is all about how it doesn't matter if it's actually level. What matters is that it look level or it look right, right? So the platform that the Parthenon is built on sags intentionally 20 inches off of level so that it will look straight.

39:35Rick Steves:20 inches. 20 inches. If I stood on one end of the steps leading up to the Parthenon, the temple, and you stood on the same step on the other end, we'd have 20 inches of bend. There would be a 20-inch rise in the middle between us. And you don't see that when you stand back and look at it, but it is overcoming the illusion of sagging that you get with a long straight line.

39:56Richard Rhodes:And they also figured out that's where enthesis was really born, which is, you know, the idea that on a column over 14 feet that you taper it slightly to counteract the visual bowing when you look at it.

40:08Rick Steves:So they're tapered, like moving in. They're moving in. So if you extended the two outer columns of the Parthenon up after a long ways, they would touch. They would touch. And that was calculated and incorporated into stone more than 2 ,000 years ago. Yeah, like 25, yeah, exactly. This is Travel with Rick Steves, and we're getting a tour of Europe from a stonemason's perspective right now with Richard Rhodes. His book is Stone, Ancient Craft to Modern Mastery, and it explores the relationship between humankind and stonework, and it lays out the secret rules he learned as an apprentice in an ancient Freemasons guild in Tuscany.

40:47Rick Steves:Richard operates a sculpture studio in Seattle, and his website is roadsworksdesign.com. And we're going through some of my favorite buildings or more impactful buildings in Europe of stone that I know impact me, but I don't appreciate quite why. Another good one is the Pantheon in Rome. Everybody knows the Pantheon. You've got to see it. I call it the building that gives us a feeling for the magnificence and the splendor of Rome better than any other. Somehow it survived. I guess it was never cannibalized, so when Rome fell, they didn't take it down. They just turned it into a church. But that building is just magical, and it might be the oculus that lets that ray of sun, that circular hole in the very top at the center of the ceiling.

41:32Rick Steves:It might be the mathematical perfection. It's 140 feet wide and 140 feet tall. It might be the mastery of mixing that pumice so that it becomes lighter and more porous at the top so it can construct that whole thing. It might be the fact that it celebrated all the gods 2 ,000 years ago. But I don't know. What is it, Richard, about the Pantheon?

41:54Richard Rhodes:You know, I wish I knew. Do you know what I mean? I think you did a great summary. It's hard to...

42:00Rick Steves:I can't walk in. I mean, I can't walk by it without popping in. It brings you to your knees. It brings you to your knees.

42:04Richard Rhodes:Even if you're not a builder, if you're not a, you know, there's something about that space that just vibrates within you. But it's interesting, you know, the roof of it used to be bronze. The portico roof used to be bronze. And there was so much bronze that when they melted it down, it made something like 80 cannons.

42:26Rick Steves:Is that right? So they did scavenge what they could. They scavenged. They took off the roof of the portico, but the rest of the building was...

42:32Richard Rhodes:Well, thank God they couldn't take it all down.

42:34Rick Steves:and those pillars out in front, those are one-piece granite pillars. I illustrate how big they are with my tour groups by having four tourists try to hug one. It takes four people's arms spans to go around these pillars. I don't know how tall it is. It's a four-story building. But they were quarried and carved in Egypt and then shipped, what, 1 ,800 years ago from Egypt to Rome and then moved there over land and set up, and it works perfect.

43:01Richard Rhodes:And let's not forget that to get those columns across, they rowed them across. They rowed them across. They were rowing the boat across.

43:09Rick Steves:Same as the obelisk. Okay, so it's just a wonder of the ancient world. It's just a wonder. It's just a reminder that don't underestimate those ancient Romans, I guess. Hey, Richard, I've talked about a few of my favorites. What are a few of yours that might be a little more surprising in Europe where we can gain an appreciation for stonework?

43:26Richard Rhodes:You know, I love to get off the beaten track like you do. And I think that, you know, I have two places that I, three places that I want to mention that I think will just have blown my mind. So there's a chapel on a tiny little island off of County Galway called McDara's Island. And it's a masterwork. It was done in the ninth century. And it has a corbelled granite roof, which I go into in my book. There's pictures in the book. It's maybe too complex for this, but imagine there was no wood because all the wood had been used for shipbuilding. And so you're trying to close a roof, and they figured out a way to corbel it over together and capture it.

44:14Richard Rhodes:It's a one-room chapel, and it's absolutely a stunning piece of it. And it's from the 800s. It's from, I'm sorry, 900s. 900s, the 10th century. 10th century.

44:24Rick Steves:And it is made with no mortar. It's just rocks stacked.

44:28Richard Rhodes:Originally, it probably had a small amount of mortar, but the mortar, remember, people misunderstand mortar. Mortar is not a glue. Mortar really just stops up the wind. Fills the holes. And takes the energy stone to stone.

44:40Rick Steves:Because that building sounds very much like the Galaris Oratory in Dingle Peninsula, another stone building with a corvold rooftop like that. Wow. And it's from that same period. And you can find those in Ireland if you know where to look. Yeah. And it's just a reminder that during when other people called it the Dark Ages, there was a lot going on in Ireland.

45:01Richard Rhodes:That's right. That's right. Wow. Another one that I highly recommend is an abbey south of Brussels. I believe it's called Villers Abbey. And it's kind of a ruined abbey. There's no roof on it. But, you know, for those of us who are interested in buildings and architecture, to walk through a ruined building, a ruined masonry building, actually reveals the innards, right? It reveals the skeleton. You see how all these things were constructed, and it's just a beautiful, simple place. You can wander around the garden. Of course, there's beautiful beer in all of Belgium and have a picnic.

45:40Rick Steves:We're planning our travels to view some of the great stoneworks of Europe right now with Richard Rhodes on Travel with Rick Steves. Richard is a master stonemason, and he's written the book Stone, Ancient Craft to Modern Mastery. It celebrates the artistry of masterful stonework in monuments and buildings and includes photographs he's taken at great stoneworks around the world. Richard also includes photos of his public art and private commissions on his website, RhodesWorksDesign.com. You can hear his earlier visit with us from our show archives at ricksteves.com slash radio. We'll just wrap up our discussion with this idea of appreciating stonework in our travels.

46:21Rick Steves:And first of all, you celebrate the permanence of stonework, but the fact is much of the stonework you see will be ruins. But you can look at that in a positive way because it shows you the inner workings of this amazing building from centuries ago. And what comes to mind for me is the Baths of Caracalla in Rome. And this was a bath that was a massive public center for, it was like a spa for the public. It had furnaces underground and it had an aqueduct that brought water there and it had cold pools and hot pools and social rooms and ballrooms and everything. And today, it's pretty much a ruin.

46:59Rick Steves:But if you wander through there and you know what to look for, you can piece that all together. Just as our sort of marching orders from you on our next trip, How should we approach ruins? What can we see and be inspired by and learn from when we walk through the scant remains of all of these amazing buildings?

47:18Richard Rhodes:Yeah, I think ruins are super interesting. You know, outside of Rome, Ostia, the port town of Ostia. Perfect. You know, that's a great example because it's a quiet place and the Roman road is there, the old port. But, you know, you see fragments of different types of walling, different types of flooring. You can see the heating system. You can see, you know, all of it is kind of opened up, and you really start to understand how these buildings were put together. And, of course, there's fragments of phenomenal craftsmanship. So something that was carved that maybe would be out of your viewing distance, maybe 30 feet up, is now lying on the ground, and it's a bench.

47:59Richard Rhodes:So you can see how the pieces were fitted together, how the geometry of it worked. And I think all of these ruins are really, really interesting. You know, I'm reminded of another place that is sort of similar, which is the monumental cemetery of Milan. I love that place. Which is an incredible gift. And you can go there and you can see some of the best sculpture of all of Italy.

48:25Rick Steves:It's a festival of grieving, loving, dramatic, over-the-top stonework.

48:31Richard Rhodes:I couldn't have said it better. That's exactly right. And the viewing distance is so close, right? So you can get right up to these graves and see this magnificent sculpture. There's no glass protecting you. There's no little chain to keep you away. You can really study it. You can really feel it. So I think it's similar to these places that are ruins because, you know, it's available to you. It's maybe the way Piranesi saw it, you know, when he first stumbled into Rome and the pieces were, you know, half buried in dirt.

49:01Rick Steves:You just got to take a moment to appreciate it and let it speak to you. We've got time for one more special site that we should be mindful of in our travels to appreciate stonework.

49:12Richard Rhodes:I'm going to recommend the Passo dell 'Estavio, which is a mountain pass above Prado, Italy. It's not a building, right, but there's 48 hairpin turns. It rises 1 ,800 meters, and the engineering, the stonework, the walls, the buttressing, the terracing, this is some of the most spectacular engineering you'll see in all of Europe. And you can ride it on your bicycle if you're brave. You can hike it. You can drive it. But I think it's way off the path, but, man, is it a rich and beautiful visit.

49:48Rick Steves:That's a good reminder that stonework is not just churches and buildings, but sometimes it's the engineering of infrastructure for the societies. Structural, yeah. Yeah, and there's great roads, and there's amazing hairpin turns that are not only practical, but they're beautifully, beautifully constructed.

50:03Richard Rhodes:Magnificent. It's like a ribbon of stone, a poetic ribbon.

50:08Rick Steves:Richard Rhodes, thanks so much for inspiring us with your book, Stone, Ancient Craft to Modern Mastery. Thank you.

50:36Richard Rhodes:Travel with Rick Steves is produced at Rick Steves Europe in Edmonds, Washington by Tim Tatton, Kaz Merhal, and Donna Bardsley. Affiliate relations are by Sheila Gerzoff. Our theme music was written and performed by Jerry Frank. You can find links to our guests and search the show archives at ricksteves.com slash radio. We'll see you next week with more Travel with Rick Steves.

50:59Rick Steves:Hey, I'm Rick Steves. Since 1973, I've spent about 100 days a year exploring Europe. My mission? To empower Americans to have European trips that are fun, affordable, and culturally broadening. With my 100 well-traveled colleagues, we produce America's best-selling guidebook series and organize small group tours to take over 30 ,000 travelers every year to Europe. If you're dreaming of a European adventure, whether on your own or with a tour, we'd love to help you make it happen.