In short
Episode 834 is a three-part Travel with Rick Steves segment. Topic 1: cross-cultural idioms. Guest Michaela Tartaglia is an Italian-born chef and linguistics enthusiast who runs Pasta Casalinga at Pike Place Market.
Key claims
idioms are “universal” expressions that reveal culture and often trace to religion, farming, or history; they make sense only after you learn the backstory.
Notable examples
“don’t wake up the sleeping dog” (Italian: non disturbare il cane che dorme) vs Spanish “no remuevas el avispero” (don’t stir up the wasp nest); “you can’t have your cake and eat it too” vs French “you cannot have the butter and the money for selling the butter”; “speak of the devil and the horns appear” vs English “talk of an angel.”
Topic 2
Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. Guest Greg Harris is president/CEO of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum in Cleveland. Claims: rock and roll is an inclusive “spirit and attitude,” not just 60s/70s guitar music; the museum’s artifacts include lyric sheets and instruments (e.g., Paul McCartney materials; Grace Slick’s Woodstock vest). Examples: the “Garage” jam space and the Hall of Fame immersive theater.
Topic 3
Wright Brothers. Guest historian David McCullough revisits his Wright Brothers research. Claims: Wilbur’s “reach of mind” plus Orville’s mechanical ingenuity drove success; they funded experiments themselves and documented everything. Examples: Kitty Hawk, Dec 17, 1903 (Orville’s 120 feet/12 seconds), and later public demonstrations in France (Le Mans).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOExploring Idioms Across Cultures
0:55 to 3:08
Discover the significance of idioms in various languages and their cultural implications.
“The origins of rock and roll music are usually traced to the early blues of the American South.”
Michaela Tartaglia on Language and Food
3:08 to 4:00
Hear Michaela Tartaglia discuss her background and her dual passion for food and language.
“Food, you know, when you're an Italian born and raised, it goes by default, your love for food.”
Understanding Idioms: Cultural Insights
4:00 to 5:55
Explore how idioms reflect cultural values and insights from different countries.
“Yes, that language is Latin and ancient Greek.”
Unique Italian Expressions and Their Meanings
5:55 to 7:10
Learn about whimsical Italian expressions and what they reveal about Italian culture.
“Do one, then in Italian we say, non puoi avere la botte piena e la moglie ubriaca.”
Idiom Comparisons Across Languages
7:10 to 8:00
Compare idioms from various languages and see how they express similar concepts differently.
“She explores the backstories behind 25 universal idioms in her book, An Apple a Day.”
Exploring the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame
14:01 to 20:31
Learn about the history and significance of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and its impact on music culture.
“most visited music landmarks and a place that celebrates rock and roll as an art form and as a cultural force.”
Tips for Visiting the Museum
20:32 to 23:08
Discover practical tips for getting the most out of your visit to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
“He's giving us a VIP look at one of Ohio's top visitor attractions.”
The Richness of Artifacts
23:09 to 24:43
Gain insight into how the museum acquires and showcases its extensive collection of rock and roll artifacts.
“Well, you know, we are, as a museum, we're rich in original artifacts, and our goal is to have something from every single inductee that's connected to the making of music.”
The Evolution of Rock and Roll
24:44 to 28:00
Understand how the definition of rock and roll has evolved and the influence of technology on music.
“We are heavy metal and industrial music and punk rock.”
The Rapid Change in Music Consumption
28:00 to 28:55
Explore how the accessibility of music has changed collective listening experiences.
“but it's no more dramatic and potentially threatening than being able to press music.”
Show all 21 chapters
Exhibitions at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame
29:03 to 30:27
Discuss the upcoming summer exhibition featuring 50 years of Saturday Night Live music.
“You know, Greg, I'm always fascinated by how curators of museums have to, they have endless things to show and only so much space.”
National Museum of the U.S. Air Force
31:20 to 31:39
Overview of the National Museum and its historical significance related to the Wright brothers.
“Another of Ohio's top visitor attractions is the National Museum of the U.S.”
The Life and Achievements of the Wright Brothers
32:20 to 34:38
David McCullough discusses the background and historical significance of the Wright brothers.
“Well, I'm delighted to be with you, and I want to congratulate you on your work, which I follow with greatest interest and pleasure.”
The First Successful Flight
34:38 to 35:36
An in-depth look at the first flight and its importance in history.
“You mentioned in your book that you were 15 years old when Orville died.”
The Wright Brothers' Vision and Future Impact
35:36 to 36:29
Exploration of the Wright brothers' perceptions of future aviation and travel.
“It's one of the most important days in all of history.”
The Skills and Background of the Wright Brothers
36:29 to 38:28
Discusses the unique skills and upbringing that contributed to the Wright brothers' success.
“But they had a good reason because in order to have an engine strong enough to do that, it would have to carry so much gasoline and so much water that the weight would preclude it.”
Catherine Wright's Role
38:28 to 39:53
Highlighting the often-overlooked contributions of their sister, Catherine.
“We never hear about Catherine, but she was exceptional as well.”
Funding Their Mission
39:53 to 42:00
Examination of how the Wright brothers funded their aviation experiments.
“By the time I was halfway through work on this book, I realized even if they hadn't succeeded, I would have wanted to have written this book.”
The Wright Brothers' Journey to Flight
42:00 to 47:10
Explore the story of the Wright brothers and their quest to invent the airplane.
“Now, did they really, when you look at it from an international point of view and so on, did they deserve the credit for inventing the airplane?”
David McCullough on the Wright Brothers
47:11 to 48:34
Historian David McCullough shares insights from his research on the Wright brothers.
“We're revisiting our conversation with historian David McCullough on his discoveries about the Wright brothers, which we recorded just after his book about them came out.”
Imagining Dinner with the Wright Brothers
48:35 to 50:08
Reflecting on what it would be like to have dinner with Wilbur and Orville Wright.
“And he said, we grew up with the greatest advantage you could possibly have.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Rick Steves:You can have your cake and eat it, too, especially if you know how they turn a phrase of folk wisdom in Italian, French, or Spanish. Coming up, Michaela Tartaglia tells us how to count our chickens where sleeping dogs lie. Anytime we try to explain them, they make sense if you put a little bit of thoughts into that, but they don't at the very beginning. For the last 75 years, rock music has been the soundtrack of our world. Greg Harris from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum tells us how they keep on rockin' at their home in Cleveland. We have a jam space called The Garage where visitors jam with each other.
0:38Rick Steves:And historian David McCullough reminds us how the Wright Brothers changed the world. My admiration for them as human beings is greater even than my absolute awe at the working of their minds. Come along for the hour ahead. It's Travel with Rick Steves.
1:00Rick Steves:The origins of rock and roll music are usually traced to the early blues of the American South. Over the years, popular music branched out in new directions, and by the 1950s, the songs you heard on the radio were energized by teenage rebellion and a spirit of freedom. The stories behind the music are featured at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum in Cleveland. Their CEO, Greg Harris, joins us on today's Travel with Rick Steves to tell us what they're up to lately as one of Ohio's hottest visitor attractions. Coming up, we'll also revisit our conversation with the late historian David McCullough back when his book about the Wright brothers had just been published.
1:39Rick Steves:McCullough dedicated his life to helping us better understand the people and events that changed the nation. His work on the Wright brothers reminds us of what's genuinely great about America. Let's start the hour looking at some of the curious expressions we might use in our everyday speech, especially when you compare them with the words people live by in other cultures. Have you ever wondered why shouldn't you look a gift horse in the mouth? And not to split hairs, but is that the same horse you shouldn't put before the cart? Though, if you're in Spain, you might be told to avoid building a house with the roof first, especially if it's raining frogs and snakes.
2:19Rick Steves:Well, it's all Greek to me, unless, of course, you speak Greek, in which case it might strike you as Chinese. Idioms are everywhere, and they exist across all languages and all cultures. Michaela Tartaglia has been collecting expressions in four languages and noting the similarities and differences between them. She's compiled her 25 favorites in her book called An Apple a Day, 25 Surprising Universal Idioms and Their Origins. She's here today to take us on a cross-cultural language journey. Michaela, thanks for being here. Thank you, Rick, for having me today. Now, tell us about yourself, first of all, because you're a chef.
2:57Rick Steves:You've written a book about pasta, so you're a foodie, but you also have a book about idioms. What came first for you, your love of food or your love of language? That's a tricky question. I would say both of them. Food, you know, when you're an Italian born and raised, it goes by default, your love for food. It could not be otherwise. So that's easy. So you grew up in Turin in the north of Italy, and you spent summers with your grandparents outside of Napoli, Naples. Tell me how that contributed to your fascination with language and idioms. Language and idioms has always been a very important part of my life.
3:39But academically, I went to Liceo Classico, which is a kind of high school where you study ancient languages. So Latin and ancient Greek. It's your major, let's say that way.
3:52Rick Steves:So in Italy, when you go to school, you can choose what sort of specialty? Yes, you do. So it's a very completely different system. So as a child, you knew you wanted to do not mathematics or chemistry, but language. Yes, that language is Latin and ancient Greek. So the book is 25 Surprisingly Universal Idioms. What is an idiom? Idioms are a way of saying expressions that we use on a daily basis in all the languages across the world. You just open this saying, I don't understand Greek. That's what you guys say in English? Yeah. In Italian, we say, io non parlo l 'arabo. I don't speak Arabic. So we say it's all Greek to me.
4:35Rick Steves:If I'm confused, it's all Greek to me. And we say arabo, Arabic. There you go. So everything is so relative. We think in a very similar way, but we express our concept with different forms. Well, yeah, obviously a Greek person would have the same opportunity to say, I'm confused, but they wouldn't say it's all Greek to me because that'd be the opposite. Of course, yeah. So it's a very fun way to see how idioms really can represent a lot about our culture and the way we picture, envisioning pretty much the same concept. You know, I like that just about Italy because Italy is, I mean, I think it's one of my very favorite places.
5:16Rick Steves:And a big part of that is the way of communicating. Everything is isimo. Yes. Do you say that, isimo? Always. Also, you know, Italians, they're well known to exaggerate. As an Italian, I should warn everybody that whatever Italians say on isimo, you should take a good 25, 30 percent down. Because we love to exaggerate. So you grew up in Italy, and what is a favorite expression that you enjoyed when you were growing up that you have not heard in the United States, and you wish in the United States we had a fun way to say that? Do one, then in Italian we say, non puoi avere la botte piena e la moglie ubriaca.
6:01What is that? You cannot have the wife drunk and the barrel full at the same time.
6:06Rick Steves:Wait a minute. So you can't have a drunk wife and a full barrel of wine at the same time. Yeah, because that's not possible. That's very Italian. You see, that's an insight into the Italian culture because it's vino in veritas or whatever. Exactly. You know, expressions and idioms really represents the culture you're coming from. So Italian culture is really based on food. Obviously, wine is a part of the culture. In fact, many factories in Italy that they provide, like a voucher for lunches, the glass of wine is included in the meal. In the workers' lunch. Yes. Even if you work with machineries, one, one.
6:50Just one. Glass, one.
6:51Rick Steves:I learned why. It's part of food. It's part, it's a complementary part with your meal. No, no, no. What they told me in the Cinque Terre was if you drink water, the fish will swim in your stomach. Exactly, yes. You have to have wine. Michaela Tartaglia has a passion for linguistics and linguine. She explores the backstories behind 25 universal idioms in her book, An Apple a Day. Michaela also runs the Pasta Casalinga Lunch Counter at Seattle's Pike Place Market and shares recipes in her cookbook, Pasta for All Seasons. Her website is michelatartaglia.com. Michaela, I love the way different languages accommodate different passions from one culture to another.
7:37Rick Steves:And of course in Italy it's living well. It's la dolce vita, right? When I cross the border into Italy people say ah, la dolce farniente the sweetness of doing nothing. Nobody crosses the border into the United States and say ah, the sweetness of doing nothing. We say work hard, you know. Tell me some of the examples that you can think of where an idiom will give an insight into the culture? Well, there are many, obviously. You know, this is a collection of 25 in the book, but I collected hundreds of them. Yeah. And then I had to come to the most representative also in the way that could be, you know, illustrated because the book is illustrated by Daniele Simonelli, who did a lovely job.
8:24And it's just a delight to page through, yeah. In the illustrations. I think the one that is very representative in Italian, Parli del diavolo e spuntano le corna, e speak of the devil and the horns appear.
8:42Rick Steves:Speak of the devil and the horns appear. In English you say, talk of an angel and you will hear the flaring of its wings. Okay. You know, so we have the English, the English UK. So the English UK has the angel and Italian has the devil. Oh. And I love the Spanish version of it. There is, hablando del rey de Roma, por la puerta a Soma, speak of the Roman king and he appears at the door. So the insight about all these idioms, anytime we try to explain them, I mean, they make sense if you put a little bit of thoughts into that, but they don't at the very beginning. Right. But people learn what it means, and it becomes part of the basic communication.
9:29They do. But also, you know, language changes through times. I grew up with grandmothers who spoke through idioms constantly. You know, maybe in one sentence there were two of those. And any time as a child I dared to ask them the meaning, they were like, no, we are not going to explain this to you.
9:51Rick Steves:You should know this. You should know this or you will find out. So the beauty of this is really the insight of all these idioms that bring up, you know, our culture. It can be religious, it can be the farming background and so on. You know, language is changing also in our culture. And it does give you a peek at the deeper culture, the history of a country. In your book, you talk about long religious histories can have an impact on the idioms. We have a famous idiom, you don't judge a book by its cover. And then in all three other languages, Italian, Spanish, and French, it's something about the habit doesn't make the monk.
10:32Rick Steves:In other words, the way they dress doesn't make a person holy, right? Exactly. So that's an incredibly fascinating one because English, which is Anglo-Saxon, root has one version. Don't judge a book by its cover. But Italian, French, and Spanish come straight from our, you know, Catholic, Christian heritage. So there you get an insight into the culture. And a lot of times they are the same, but they would be a little bit different. I like the one about don't poke a bear. In the other countries, you still don't poke something, but what would they be? Yeah, so this is a great example. Like four different languages, they express the same concept with four different animals.
11:17In Italian, it's non disturbare il canche dorme. So don't wake up the sleeping dog.
11:26Rick Steves:Don't wake up a sleeping dog. And we use this all the time. When you want to make a change of some plants, don't svegliar can que dorme. And then in Spanish, no remuevas el avispero. Don't stir up the wasp nest. Don't stir up a wasp's nest. Yeah, well, that's even more important than don't wake up a dog. I don't want to stir up a wasp. Well, the dog can bite you. He can bite you. And, you know. Well, here's another one that I like in your book. We like to say you can't have your cake and eat it too. But the French, they love their butter. Always. So the French have instead of eating cake, do you have the one for the French there?
12:05Yes. You cannot have the butter and the money for selling the butter. And this is so quintessential of the French culture. And my French friends use it all the time. yeah it's perfect for them
12:22Rick Steves:Michaela one word I know in Italy is buon lavoro I just think this is beautiful work that you've done thank you for writing an apple a day and that'll give us a little more fun and a little more insight when we are enjoying our next trip over to Italy, France Spain or Britain Enjoy and thank you so much for having me and please keep using this expression or you will impress all your friends and new acquaintances in Italy in all this country. Mille grazie. Grazie a te. Ciao. You can find web links to our guests in the notes we post with each week's show at ricksteves.com slash radio. In 1951, this jockey Alan Freed, the king of the moondoggers, started to include the kind of records on his hip late-night radio show that caught listeners' attention in Northeast Ohio.
13:10Rick Steves:He called it rock and roll. Today, Cleveland is credited as an early pop culture trendsetter. It's also home to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum. Their CEO, Greg Harris, has tips for exploring what they have to offer next on Travel with Rick Steves. In 1983, Huey Lewis told us that the heart of rock and roll is in Cleveland. That was after playing a gig there that must have really left an impression on him. Well, later that year, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame was born, launching a search for a permanent home that would ultimately prove Huey's lyrics to be correct. Cleveland, Ohio, wow, the heart of perhaps America's most popular and enduring art form as it became the location of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum.
13:58Rick Steves:Well, today, against the backdrop of Lake Erie, the Rock Hall stands as one of America's most visited music landmarks and a place that celebrates rock and roll as an art form and as a cultural force. Joining us for a look at its influence is Greg Harris. He's the museum's president and CEO, and since 2013, Greg has helped to transform the museum into an impressive can't-miss stop for travelers and for music lovers alike. Greg, welcome to the show. Rick, it's a pleasure to be on, and I love the chance to talk about our incredible Rock and Roll Hall of Fame with your listeners, people that love to travel, that love culture, and I'm guessing there's a lot of music lovers in the fold, too.
14:39Rick Steves:You know, in my work, I get to meet a lot of people who find their niche, and it occurs to me not everybody gets to find their niche. I'm really thankful that I have. And talk about a man who knows how to find his niche. First of all, you work at the Baseball Museum in Cooperstown, right? And now you're running the Rock and Roll Museum. Two great gigs. You know, I would say we're both incredibly fortunate, and it's trite to say you follow your passion, but things find you, and I was really... My whole journey started by dropping out of college and opening up a used record store a long time ago and that led me to museums, which are magical, wonderful places, and ultimately from the National Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, which visitors should go to, to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame here in Cleveland.
15:23It's been an incredible run, an incredible ride, and I'm thrilled.
15:28Rick Steves:You've been around a few decades, and you're running a museum that is talking about history, lots of decades. What's your decade for rock and roll? Oh, boy. My decade for rock and roll, it's a couple, to be frank. It's hard to answer. It's sort of like saying, what's that favorite record? As a teenager, I really got into 50s rockabilly. My first car was a 57 Chevy. I was very much into that, found my way to blues and things like that. And then punk rock spoke to my soul. So you jumped from the Everly Brothers to punk rock. Yeah. And you could say from Bobby Fuller doing I Fought the Law to The Clash doing I Fought the Law.
16:09and even Buddy Holly's version way back there. But it's all connected. So that really spoke to me. In those eras, stay with you. We do tend to go back to the stuff that spoke to us, and that continuum keeps moving, and everybody has a different era. That's their era. It's great.
16:25Rick Steves:I want to just get one thing straight here because it's actually confusing to me. You run the Rock and Roll Museum and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. What's the difference? It's one and the same place. So the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum is this incredible entity on the shores of Lake Erie. It's that pyramid that people have seen, the incredible I.M. Pei is the architect. And here we have the whole history of rock and roll and the Hall of Fame all together. Okay. And the Hall of Fame is, you know, we hear it in the news. And where is it this year? It's in Nashville or something like that?
16:58No, the Hall of Fame induction will be in Los Angeles. And there is another entity called the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Foundation. They handle the election process and they run the induction. They're our partner, and they license the name to Cleveland that operate and own this museum.
17:13Rick Steves:Okay. Now, everybody has to get money together to do a great museum and so on. And a long time ago, people talked Cleveland into investing a pile of money in, what, in the 1990s, 65 million bucks to do the museum. You got I Am Pay to be the architect and so on. And it has been quite a good investment over time, hasn't it? Oh, it's been massive. In our origin, we opened our doors 31 years ago. The cost to build the original building went from your quote of 65 actually cost about 95 to build it. Every year we've been open, we've returned more than 95 million to the regional economy, including today,$242 million each year to our regional economy.
18:00Rick Steves:Okay, so I would like just for everybody to think about that. Cleveland. Cleveland, formerly known as the mistake by the lake, now is the place where you go, oh, Cleveland rocks. Every time I'm going to Cleveland, people say, you've got to go to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. That was a big investment. It was probably a little controversial in its day, and every year in one year alone it returns on that investment because today all across our country there are cultural opportunities that need to be funded, and it can be seen, I think, as a good, good investment. Now, why Cleveland? Why was Cleveland chosen for the center of this?
18:34Rick Steves:Because it could have been anywhere. You're right. You know, rock and roll was in a lot of places. But Cleveland, so Philly had Philly Soul, Bandstand, Chicago Blues had Chicago. New Orleans had great music, arguably the home of rock and roll Memphis. Cleveland had the heart of rock and roll through a radio DJ named Alan Freed in the early 50s who was playing rhythm and blues music on radio for audiences and calling it rock and roll. He was popularizing the term. He was a huge phenomena. He had movies where he was the star with artists in the movies. So they had that origin story. We had a great radio network here in the 60s, 70s, and 80s.
19:13So there's lots of listeners. The concert business really was strong in Cleveland. So we had that piece, but really what carried the day, Rick, and this is the lesson. We had the heart when we made our pitch to this New York foundation to build a museum in Cleveland, we showed up with a business plan. They showed how they were going to fund it, what the impact would be. The mayor was behind it, who became the governor, George Voinovich, who became a senator. He supported it. The corporations in Northeast Ohio supported it. The individuals supported it. And collectively, it was such a strong case that they could pull it off that no other city was really viable once they made the presentation.
19:49Rick Steves:What is the mission of the museum? The mission of the museum is really born from the collision of rhythm and blues, country and gospel. Rock and roll is a spirit that is inclusive and ever-changing. The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame celebrates the sound of youth culture and honors the artist whose music connects us all. God, that is beautiful. That is beautiful. And really the important pieces in there, you know, this is the artist whose music connects us all. Globally, we're connected through rock and roll. It's a sound that's inclusive and ever-changing. And in many ways, it's more of a spirit and an attitude than a specific sound.
20:25Rick Steves:Greg Harris is our guide to Cleveland's Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum right now on Travel with Rick Steves. Greg's been with the museum since 2008 and its president and CEO since 2013. He's giving us a VIP look at one of Ohio's top visitor attractions. Their website includes information on the Hall of Fame inductees and a schedule of concerts and events at rockhall.com. So, Greg, when I went, I got special treatment. I was there with the public television and public radio, and we were having a wonderful evening fundraiser. But if somebody just stumbles up to the door and wants to go to the Rock and Roll Museum, what are your practical tips so they get the most out of their visit?
21:11So check our calendar in advance. And odds are pretty good we'll have a live band on our plaza if it's the summer season. And so you pick a day when there's a band that you want to see on our summer stage. And then in the museum itself, really, I would say, one, you need to keep moving. There's so much here. We tell the whole history of rock and roll. And you're going to find spaces that speak to you, whether you're a Beatles fan or a Supremes fan or an Elvis fan or a fan of The Cure or U2 or Olivia Rodrigo. We're a wide net. I would also share that if you play an instrument, go on the second floor of the museum.
21:48We have a jam space called the garage where visitors jam with each other and others, staff members play with others throughout the day. It's magical.
Read the full transcript
21:57Rick Steves:That's where we all ended up when we were there with our evening banquet with public broadcasting. We ended up jamming together in that beautiful room. Yes. And then moving through the building on the third floor, that's our Hall of Fame floor. That's where every single inductee is recognized in our plaque gallery, where we exhibit that year's class that we're honoring. And there's an immersive theater on that floor that has the greatest, it's like the greatest rock concert you ever attended. It's all induction footage, and it's a 12-minute show that will blow your face off. And it was edited by the great Jonathan Demme.
22:32It was his final film he made, and it's powerful and emotional, and you need to see it.
22:36Rick Steves:You know, when I was walking through the museum, and I walk through museums for a living. That's what I do when I'm updating my guidebooks in Europe. And I have this need for real artifacts. I just don't want to be reading a book that's been printed on a wall and standing up and paying for admission to do that. I want to see real historical artifacts. And your museum is just rich in artifacts. I was just so impressed by that. How do you get these artifacts? Talk a little bit about your vault and how you cycle these through the public and back into the vault. Sure. Well, you know, we are, as a museum, we're rich in original artifacts, and our goal is to have something from every single inductee that's connected to the making of music.
23:19So we have lyric sheets, handwritten lyric sheets, the flashpoint of creativity. We have the actual guitar that that specific song was recorded on. We have things like clothing, you know, the vest that Grace Slick wore on stage at Woodstock, things like that. And, you know, if people visit this summer, we have the largest exhibit of Paul McCartney materials in the world that's ever existed on our top floor. And the way we receive those materials, we work directly with Sir Paul and with his team. And it comes from his archive to our archive to the general public for the first time ever. That's really amazing.
23:56Rick Steves:This is Travel with Rick Steves. We're talking with Greg Harris. He's the president and CEO of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland. He's been enjoying now for 15 years almost running the show. And, you know, Greg, as the years go by, classic rock and roll gets buried deeper and deeper in music history. Your name is the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. What's the potential liability of that as classic rock gets deeper? Or have you broadened the definition of rock and roll to be more than what I would think of as rock and roll? We've broadened it greatly. And what some people think of as rock and roll is really classic 70s and 60s rock.
24:39But we're broader. We're blues, gospel country. We're dance music. We're hip hop music. We are heavy metal and industrial music and punk rock. To us, it's all rock and roll because rock and roll is a spirit and an attitude.
24:53Rick Steves:Okay, so whatever is embraced by the next generation, it could just be totally extreme techno with no words at all. and you would embrace it and go rock and roll. Especially if it's the voice of change and it has attitude and spirit that is inspirational and drives you. Rock and roll has done that for decades and it's going to continue to do that far beyond four guys with long hair and guitars. They're part of it and so is this other styles of music as well. Okay, so you're the CEO and you probably get everybody wants to meet you when they come to the museum if they're famous rock stars and they have the occasion to come there.
25:28Rick Steves:If they're in Cleveland, and I'm sure there'd be an excuse to go to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. What are your fanboy moments? You've been doing this for 15 years. If you could have four or five people that you've met and you just said, I want your autograph. Oh, God, I can't believe it. I touched your guitar. Yeah. You know, growing up where I did on the East Coast, Springsteen was a big part of our world. So being able to tour him through the exhibits was really special. Rick, I think here's a connection with you. Paul Simon was through a number of years ago, traveling around the country, visiting ballparks, with his son and he came in and toured the museum and we had a featured exhibition of his.
26:04And I know that, that you're a fan. Uh, that was pretty magical. You know, it's, uh, it's hard in these roles to get super excited because you're, you're part of the team and you're there to make them feel comfortable and make them, uh, really experience your place. So I could probably continue down the list, but it's magical. And these people, I will say, well, we're talking about inductees. many of them would have been great at anything they pursued because they had a drive and they had a push, and they really did it. It's kind of fascinating. And it didn't come by accident. You know, Paul McCarty didn't roll out of bed and start writing songs and John Lennon.
26:41They really put in the hours. They put in the time, and they honed their craft and became terrific at it.
26:46Rick Steves:It's so interesting to me because I don't want to be generational-centric or what you want to call it, like ethnocentric, except for what era do you like? but I think of music as troubadours that have a message to give. And I guess when you do, even if you don't recognize or understand or appreciate music of a particular decade, you've got to credit it that it is still doing that troubadour function. I mean, Bruce Springsteen, he's a troubadour. Paul Simon, he's a troubadour. Do you find that music has challenges that sort of are dictated to it by technology and, you know, like right now we're having an adjustment of how artists make their money and going, you know, from records to streaming and technology that's just dominating the creativity now.
27:36Rick Steves:What kind of crisis can music be in as a cultural phenomenon and as a business? You know, it's always changing. Technology is a big part of it today, of course, but there was a time when people thought pressing vinyl records was going to put live music out of business. And they thought that that technology would supersede it. That's great. That's so good because people are all stressed out now about something, but it's no more dramatic and potentially threatening than being able to press music. Yes. And I think what's different, slightly different today is just in all industries, our pace of change.
28:12That rate of change is so rapid that before it would take decades for True Change. Now we're having them in shorter cycles. And so that's where the mystery comes in. There's something magical right now about being able to access almost any song you want to hear at the tip of your fingertips. And so young people get exposed to more music. What I think is missing a little bit is that collective listening, that one radio station that would dominate a market, everybody would hear the same stuff. And that's why festivals Devils are still popular, and live shows are major, you know, powerful, powerful experiences.
28:46And we come together for live, but a lot of listening is solo. And I think that's an interesting dynamic in today's culture.
28:55Rick Steves:This is Travel with Rick Steves. We've been talking with Greg Harris, and he is the president and CEO of the Rock and Roll Hall and Fame and Museum in Cleveland. You know, Greg, I'm always fascinated by how curators of museums have to, they have endless things to show and only so much space. and they have to be mindful that you don't just want always the greatest hits because you've got a local public that wants to come again and again. So I imagine you factor that into your thinking of what do you want to have on show, and then you've got exhibits all the time. What are you excited about this summer, for example, for exhibits and how we were talking about artifacts, how that might bring to the fore something that will inspire people?
29:33You know, this summer, one of our featured exhibitions is Saturday Night Live, 50 Years of Music. and Saturday Night Live for 50 years brought over a thousand performers into people's living rooms and there were these important cultural moments within that exhibit when you walk through there's things that just take you back to a moment one of them is Will Ferrell's more cowbell outfit immediately you see that and it just you light up right and then talk about emotion we also have the photo that Sinead O 'Connor pulled out on stage and in defiance, um, ripped up on camera.
30:13Rick Steves:The photo of the Pope. Yes. Wow. That would take you back if you're that age. And then those are the cultural pieces as well as instruments and guitars and, you know, the Blues Brothers outfits take you back to that moment and to that place. And it's how, as museums, you tell stories, you connect the cultural context with the artifact themselves. And then we get to connect that cultural context with the music as well. Well, I guess I've never said this on my radio show, but I'll just say, Greg Harris, rock on. Right back at you, sir. I'm happy to say to you, keep on traveling.
31:07Rick Steves:The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum includes educational resources online and in person to teach young people about the origins of the music and its influence on our lives and society. It's at edu.rockhall.com. Another of Ohio's top visitor attractions is the National Museum of the U.S. Air Force in Dayton. It's located right next to the field that Wilbur and Orville Wright used to conduct their experimental flights. With a little help from the Travel with Rick Steves archives, historian David McCullough reminds us next how two humble brothers from Dayton changed how we think about the world.
31:47Rick Steves:His 55 honorary degrees were just a fraction of the awards David McCullough received in his 89 years, including two Pulitzers and a Presidential Medal of Freedom. McCullough was one of the nation's most celebrated chroniclers of American history. We were honored to have him join us in the Travel with Rick Steves studio a few years ago as he shared his enthusiasm for what he learned about Orville and Wilbur Wright. His biography of the Wright brothers had just been published and was an immediate bestseller. Here's our conversation with David McCullough. Well, I'm delighted to be with you, and I want to congratulate you on your work, which I follow with greatest interest and pleasure.
32:28I think we both appreciate public broadcasting. We do, but we also appreciate the importance of travel, of going places where things happened and understanding what happened and why and the people there, and the refreshing, invigorating spirit that it gives one's outlook on life. I try to go everywhere that any event in any of the books that I write took place. And I've stressed that all along, and I've encouraged students that if you want to write about something, go to where it happened.
33:02Rick Steves:You know, I think I can tell from reading your books that you can relate to the place. Absolutely. You're grounded in the spot. The place is very important, particularly the place where people grew up. What happened on December 17, 1903, and why was that important enough for you to write about the men who made that happen? First of all, where it happened was on the outer banks of North Carolina, which at that time there was no bridge over there, there were no roads, it was sand dunes and beaches, and a very small population just barely getting by, primarily fishing. And the Wright brothers went there to test their flying ideas because they needed continuous wind, and there was plenty of wind out there.
33:43And they loved the idea of a soft landing on sand, not on rock or higher earth. And there were very few people to be curious and asking too many questions and taking up their time. And they'd never been away from home. They'd never seen the ocean. They traveled over 700 miles from Dayton, Ohio, in their bicycle shop. And it was like nothing they'd ever seen or experienced in their lives, and they loved every minute of it, despite the hurricanes and the sieges of mosquitoes and all the other things that went wrong. It was for them, it was the work they loved to do, and their courage and their refusal to give in when they failed and their ingenuity and their attention to detail were all of a sort that we can learn from no matter what we do or no matter what we strive to do.
34:40Rick Steves:It's amazing. You mentioned in your book that you were 15 years old when Orville died. That's right. I could have known him. You could have known him. And think of what's happened since then. Oh, absolutely. In one lifetime. But that Orville was the one that flew that day, December 17th, very cold day, 20, 25-mile-an-hour winds. And, of course, nobody thought they would succeed. They weren't sure they'd succeed. They never, what it was was... They were pioneers. The glider that they had developed and put a motor on it. As a matter of fact, you wrote about that in your book. It almost sounds like a legal responsibility.
35:09Rick Steves:The first mechanically powered, heavier-than-air machine to achieve controlled, sustained flight with a pilot on board. Right. 120 feet, 12 seconds. It's all took. Orville. Yes. However, the brothers are taking turns. It was Orville's turn. And they kept on flying that day. And by the end of the day, or close to the end of the day, Wilbur had flown over 500 feet, or close to half a mile. So they really knew they'd done it. That was the day they broke through. Oh, yes. It's one of the most important days in all of history. It changed history. Do you think they knew that that first 120 feet and 12 seconds was the most difficult and after that the arc of progress would just zoom up?
35:49Remember, they've never tried it before. This is their first time ever to try this machine they've made. And the fact that even though it bounced like a bucking bronco horse before it settled down, they knew instantly we've done it.
36:03Rick Steves:So air is like matter, and they can cruise through it now. Well, they learned to ride the wind. Ride the wind. By studying soaring birds. Very simple. You must have read a lot of letters and do this primary research. Did you get a sense, David, in anything that you read that they thought much about the future of this, what an impact it would have on domestic travel, on tourism? No, they really didn't think much about that. In fact, they were asked, do you think there will be a plane that will fly the ocean? They said no. But they had a good reason because in order to have an engine strong enough to do that, it would have to carry so much gasoline and so much water that the weight would preclude it.
36:41Rick Steves:Well, they hadn't figured on an air-cooled engine, which was invented very shortly after by another American named Charles Lawrence. Now, there were a lot of people trying to figure this out. It seems like there was a frenzy of inventors trying to make a flying machine back then. What do you think were the unique skills that gave the Wright brothers their winning combination? Because they didn't have the big money behind them. By studying the soaring birds, watching how they used the ends of their wings, how could they possibly stay up there without flapping their wings? Yeah. Well, these are two bicycle riders.
37:15These are two bicycle manufacturers. And they realize it's balance. They're balancing on the wind. We balance on the road. They are balancing on the wind. So how do they control that balance? And how do they bank and turn? So once they'd figured that out, they created what they call wing warping, where they could twist the wings so that they could bank and turn, almost exactly the way a soaring bird does.
37:39Rick Steves:So did they complement each other in their skills, Wilbur and Orville, or was one of them more dominant and more important? I would say yes to both. Wilbur was the genius. Wilbur was the older brother. He was the boss, the big brother. And he was also truly, literally a genius. Orville was very clever and ingenious mechanically, but he didn't have the reach of mind that Wilbur did. Wilbur was an absolutely amazing human being. So they were the right combination, the right duo. They both were. Neither of them ever finished high school. They had no technical training. But it was like homeschooling with their preacher father, right?
38:14Well, the preacher father who insisted that they read. Right. The preacher father who gave them a full liberal arts education. They had to read history. They read literature. They read everything.
38:27Rick Steves:You know, a surprise from reading your book was the importance of their sister. We never hear about Catherine, but she was exceptional as well. Well, one of the joys of writing the book was to bring Catherine's front and center stage because she deserves it. Talk about credit long overdue. She was a pistol. She was bright. She was full of ideas. She was full of humor. She also had a hot temper. She could get wrathy, as she said. She stood about five feet one, but she had no trouble whatsoever holding her own. She was a schoolteacher, taught Greek and Latin in the local Dayton High School. But she was always there when they needed her, and she kept them on the track.
39:05And her letters, which have survived, as theirs have, are the greatest testimony to their father's insistence on using the English language, not only correctly, but effectively. They were incapable of writing a dull letter or a short one, and there are thousands of them.
39:20Rick Steves:The vivid detail in your book is just remarkable, and all I could think is, did these guys write their letters with an appreciation of history? Did they know that this might be of some value? I don't think so. I think their notes, their professional correspondence, their professional papers and presentations to professional groups and so were definitely. But as far as the family corresponds, it was all very personal, very revealing, very private, and terrific because that's how you can get inside their lives. It's the human beings in this story that interests me most. By the time I was halfway through work on this book, I realized even if they hadn't succeeded, I would have wanted to have written this book.
40:00So remarkable are they as human beings. And it's never more apparent than when they went to France. Never more apparent.
40:08Rick Steves:We're honoring the memory of historian David McCullough today on Travel with Rick Steves by revisiting his 2015 visit with us. His book, The Wright Brothers, had just been released. We also have links to his interviews on The Greater Journey, where he explored how great American inventors, scientists, thinkers, and artists went out of their way to learn from the French in 19th-century Paris. And David shared with us his favorite historical sites to visit as well. You'll find links to those interviews in the notes for program number 699 at ricksteves.com slash radio. David, it must have been expensive, and I just can't help but wonder, How did they fund this whole mission of theirs?
40:51They did everything themselves. First of all, they built everything themselves. They didn't have somebody else build things for them. And the money that they used to spend on their experiments was taken from their rather modest profits from their bicycle shop. They just didn't sell bicycles. They made bicycles. And it was a time when bicycling was a big fad. So there was a big market for them. That was opportune for them. But to give you an example, the head of the Smithsonian, who was a very famous scientist, Samuel Langley, spent something like$50 ,000 of public money, Smithsonian Institution money, and another$20 ,000 of private money that was given to him by wealthy friends to develop his airplane, Airdrome, he called it.
41:33And it did nothing but shoot up in the air and then dive into the Potomac River. What the Wright brothers' plane, the plane they flew at Kitty Hawk on that famous day, December 17th, 1903, that whole thing cost less than$1 ,000. They never had any financial backer. They never had any great institution or foundation or university behind them. They had no political pull. They did it all themselves, everything. It's a great American story. And they were laughed at. They were ignored. They were mocked.
42:04Rick Steves:Now, did they really, when you look at it from an international point of view and so on, did they deserve the credit for inventing the airplane? Is there any question about that? Yes, no question. Because there was other stuff happening. Yes, and there are other people who keep claiming it. No, they absolutely did it themselves. And it's all on record. That's the other thing. Some of these other claims, there's nothing, no proof, no photographs, no nothing. So they knew about that. They had a little bit of pride. Yes, they wanted to have their place in history be authentic and provable. How did they work to authenticate?
42:34They took photographs of everything they did.
42:36Rick Steves:So on the cover of your book, this is the first. That's the first flight ever. That's the first flight. That's one of the most historic events in all of history, one of the most historic and important photographs in all of history. And they had somebody else take it with their camera. That's reproduced from the original glass plate, and it's as sharp and clear as it had been taken yesterday. You know, when we look at that airplane, it looks so frail. How did they land a plane like that on those first? Well, they were landing on sand, and they're just coming. They couldn't use wheels. They just skidded to a halt.
43:07Yes, and they took off on a little railing, like a track, which was composed of two-by-fours. And it all was very primitive, and if you see the original plane, which is on view in the Smithsonian Institution, you wonder how in the world they do it. It's also much bigger than you think it's going to be. This is a big plane.
43:26Rick Steves:Now, David, this is a travel show, and we're all dreaming about traveling, and it is so clear when we read your books, you have traveled and you've been to these places. If we're inspired by the Wright Brothers and your book, what's a travel tip you'd give us? Where should we go to see this stuff? Well, you should definitely go to Kitty Hawk. Right. It's a national park. You can see exactly where they took off. Everything's there. And a wonderful museum. And you should definitely go to the Ford Museum in Dearborn, Michigan, right outside of Detroit, where the home that they grew up in, which was all important to their shaping, their whole outlook on life.
43:59Outside of Detroit. How they were raised at home. And the bicycle shop where they built the first airplane that ever flew in the history of the world is right there. And you should go to Paris, and you should go to Le Mans, just southwest of Paris, the racetrack town, where for the first time, Wilbur Wright flew a plane demonstrating to an audience, to a public, that man could fly. There's the eighth day of August in 1908, the eighth day of the eighth month of the eighth year. And that's when the world suddenly realized man can fly.
44:36Rick Steves:That's five years later. They were struggling for five years. It took them five years because nobody believed that they could do it. Nobody gave any attention. They wouldn't even bother to come look at it. So the French were the ones that said, hey, these guys are something. They'd heard about it, came over and invited them to come to Paris. They didn't want to do it. They wanted, they're very patriotic Americans, but our government slammed the door in their face about five times and they were sick of it, and understandably. Yeah. Whereas the French were keenly interested in aviation and the future of aviation.
45:01And once they did that, thousands of people came to Le Mans by the trainload every day from all over France and all over Europe. And you can go there today in the same place where that flight was taken off. You can walk where the hotel was at Po. They also flew down at Po, which is a beautiful town, way down by the Spanish border.
45:23Rick Steves:So did they box the plane up and put it on the boat? Yeah, put it on a boat. and assembled it. Yes, they had to reassemble because the customs, the French customs official. There was no box. I have an airplane on the boat. They uncrated the box and they did it in such a rough, ignorant way that they broke just about everything. And poor Wilbur had to put it all back to really virtually remanufacture it himself right there. So that was Wilbur that went to France, just one of them. Yes. And Wilbur responded to Europe like very few Americans ever have. But suddenly, for the first time, he went into a major art exhibit, but Art Museum never had seen it.
45:58He would take every spare moment he had to go to the Louvre. He wrote these wonderful letters home about which paintings he liked and which he thought were overrated, which school of painting he responded to. And honestly, no graduate student there to become an art historian could have written anything. And he wrote them to his sister and his father, knowing they wanted to hear about it. But greatest of all are the letters he wrote from Le Mans about the incredible cathedral at Le Mans, which nobody ever writes about, but he responded to with a wholehearted awe and detail about this cathedral, which is both Romanesque and Gothic.
46:39And that's one of the reasons he loved it, because he could see so much history on this one.
46:42Rick Steves:He was instrumental in bringing the modern age, the age of flying into the world, and he was so just enthralled with the wonders of the culture of the past. Well, he talks about how in the Gothic nave, It goes up and up to a clear story where there's magnificent stained glass windows letting the light in. And he said, and you sense this desire to reach for the sky. Well, of course, that's exactly what he's doing. That's what Gothic was all about, I think. And that's what Orville and Wilbur were all about. We're revisiting our conversation with historian David McCullough on his discoveries about the Wright brothers, which we recorded just after his book about them came out.
47:20Rick Steves:David's last book, The Pioneers, about the early settlers of Marietta, Ohio, was released in 2019. His speeches are collected in a volume called The American Spirit, Who We Are and What We Stand For. And a posthumous collection of his essays was released as History Matters. His publisher, Simon & Schuster, has more at davidmccullough.com. David, when I hear you talk and when I read through the book, it's like you must have been like a kid in a candy shop with all these original letters to read. I mean, it must have been— Oh, my. For most of my books, I've depended tremendously on the letters, the letters of John Adams and Abigail, the letters of Harry Truman, because they bring you into their private world.
48:05You can get to know these people in many ways better than you can know people in real life, because in real life, you don't get to read other people's mail. We don't write letters anymore, for one thing. But these letters are—they're works of art. And they are humbling because you realize, once again, they never even finished high school.
48:24Rick Steves:What a blessing that we have these. Oh, my goodness. It's conceivable they wouldn't have written. And then all of this richness behind the story. And their love of learning. Years later, Orville Wright was interviewed and he said, would you agree with so many Americans that you and your brother are the perfect example of how far one can go in life, an American could go in life, who's had no advantages growing up? And he said, we grew up with the greatest advantage you could possibly have. And the man said, well, what is that, sir? And he said, we grew up in a home which stimulated and encouraged intellectual curiosity.
49:00Rick Steves:David, let's just say you could have dinner with Wilbur or Orville tonight. Yes. What would you love to ask them, and what's one thing you'd like to tell them? Well, I'd love to hear more about Wilbur's feelings on the great cathedral at Le Mans and what was in his spirit that so responded to the art and architecture of his travels. And then I'd love to ask Orville why he refused to speak to Catherine, the sister, again when she announced she was going to get married. He thought she'd betrayed him, but I would like to hear. And he comes across as the selfish, mean guy, which he wasn't. He really wasn't.
49:43I'd like to hear his side of the story.
49:45Rick Steves:If you could just tell them one thing, 100 years after their work, what would you tell them? I'd tell them that my admiration for them as human beings is greater even than my absolute awe at the working of their minds. Beautiful. David McCullough, thank you so much for all your work and the Wright Brothers. Thank you, sir. It's a real nice way to spend a day Dating a wife on a lazy Sunday afternoon In 1903
50:26Travel with Rick Steves is produced at Rick Steves Europe
50:29Rick Steves:in Edmonds, Washington by Tim Tatton, Donna Bardsley, and Kazmierl Hall. Website uploads are by Sherry Quirt and Andrew Wakeling. Promotion support comes from Sheila Gerzoff, and our theme music is by Jerry Frank. You'll find more at ricksteves.com slash radio. Hey, I'm Rick Steves. Thanks for listening. In our online travel store, you can choose from 80 different Rick Steves guidebooks covering just about every country, region, and major city in Europe, as well as books on history, art, Italian food, cruising, and festivals, plus phrasebooks and planning maps. you'll find my favorite bag the one I designed and I live out of for 100 days a year and a selection of other custom designed bags backpacks and wheeled bags big and small plus a selection of accessories that experienced travelers won't leave home without it's all at ricksteves.com
From the publisher
A chef and cookbook author takes a look at idioms that are shared across diverse languages. Then the head of the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame and Museum updates us on what's happening this summer at Cleveland's top attraction. And the late historian David McCullough reflects on the Wright brothers and how their dream changed the world.
For more information on Travel with Rick Steves - including episode descriptions, program archives and related details - visit www.ricksteves.com.