In short
This episode of Travel with Rick Steves is about three travel themes: (1) appreciating ancient stonework as a window into how civilizations solved problems like quarrying, moving, shaping, and stacking massive stones without cranes; it highlights “failures” and learning, and the emotional impact of monumental entrances like the 25-ton Lion’s Gate at Mycenae. (2) Italy’s Dolomites, focusing on their all-season hiking culture, mountain huts/alpine farms, and the region’s Italian-German-Ladin identity shaped by World War I front lines and later Italian rule; it also covers Dolomite limestone, sunset “enrosadira,” and gentle hikes like Alpi di Siusi. (3) Rediscovering Route 66’s centennial-era revival and preservation, including endangered authentic motels/auto courts and bridges, and a push for federal National Historic Trail protection.
Guests
master stonemason Richard Rhodes (Seattle sculptor; author Stone, Ancient Craft to Modern Mastery; last non-Italian apprentice in Siena’s Freemasons Guild) and Dolomites guide Andrea Vicenti (lives part-time in the Dolomites; website andreavincente.com). Route 66 guest: Jim Hinckley (author America’s Longest Small Town; Route 66 Economic Development Committee). Art segment guest: Gene Openshaw (co-author; Michelangelo at Midlife).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOMeet Stonemason Richard Rhodes
0:55 to 2:26
Discover Richard Rhodes' journey to becoming a master stonemason and his insights into craftsmanship.
“Author John Steinbeck dubbed it the Mother Road as an escape route from the Oklahoma Dust Bowl.”
The Challenges of Ancient Stonework
2:26 to 4:25
Explore the complexities and techniques of ancient stone construction as described by Richard Rhodes.
“I'm just so fascinated by your book, and it has me wondering, how can appreciating architecture like you, like a stonemason, enhance our travel experiences?”
Cultural Significance of Stone Across Civilizations
4:25 to 6:16
Learn how different civilizations approach stonework, as Richard discusses various historical examples.
“And then they weren't really sure of the strength of it, right?”
Stone: A Legacy of Strength and Beauty
6:16 to 8:04
Understand the enduring legacy of stone structures and their emotional impact on travelers today.
“They didn't have a written language, they hadn't invented the wheel, and they didn't have metal tools.”
Richard's Dream Trip Itinerary
8:04 to 13:02
Discover the top stone sites in Europe that Richard would recommend visiting for their architectural significance.
“No, there's actually some very excellent sandstones.”
Exploring the Dolomites with Andrea Vicenti
14:01 to 19:15
Learn about the Dolomites' unique culture and history with local guide Andrea Vicenti.
“was hosting the 2026 Winter Olympics Games.”
Hiking Experiences in the Dolomites
19:15 to 28:05
Discover the hiking experiences and beauty of the Dolomites through personal stories.
“Tour guide Andrea Vincenti splits his time between Italy's dolomites high up in the country's northeast corner and living in Orvieto, which I think is one of the country's most charming hill towns.”
The Representation of Women in Art
28:19 to 31:05
A discussion on how women have been portrayed in various art forms throughout history.
“that so much of Western art focuses on a single subject, women.”
Rick and Gene Reflect on Artistic Insights
31:06 to 31:44
Rick and Gene share their thoughts on the variety of European art and its insights.
“It screens on demand at PBS Passport and at ricksteves.com.”
The History and Significance of Route 66
31:57 to 34:44
Jim Hinckley discusses the origins and cultural impact of Route 66 in America.
“America's most famous road trip has taken on legendary status, even though most of the two-lane route was replaced by interstate highways years ago.”
Show all 15 chapters
Nostalgia and Modern Preservation of Route 66
34:45 to 37:23
Exploration of nostalgia linked to Route 66 and its ongoing preservation efforts.
“Highway 66 Association, and they started a branding campaign marketing Route 66 as the main street of America.”
Listener Call-ins and Route 66 Experiences
37:24 to 42:00
Listeners share their stories and experiences related to traveling Route 66.
“We're getting ready to motor down the old Route 66 right now on Travel with Rick Steves.”
Exploring Route 66's Hidden Gems
42:00 to 42:45
Discover the charm of small towns and diners off Route 66.
“The small towns are still surviving, and the best diners and restaurants are always in those smaller towns when you get off the interstate highways.”
Preserving Route 66: A Cultural Journey
42:45 to 48:25
Learn about the threats to Route 66 and efforts to preserve its heritage.
“His book is about Route 66, America's Longest Small Town.”
The Significance of Route 66
48:25 to 49:25
Understand the historical impact of Route 66 on American culture.
“Well, what colonial Williamsburg was for 18th century America, Route 66 is now for 20th century America.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Rick Steves:A stonemason helps us look at ancient societies from England to Egypt, Mexico, and China, where we can still view the stoneworks and monuments they built centuries ago. Moving stone is a major obstacle that every civilization has to solve. Enjoy the views and a gentle hike in the Dolomite Mountains at the top of Italy. And you find mountain huts everywhere to refresh yourself, so you don't have to walk for like four hours before you find refreshment. take a drive on the legendary Route 66 on its centennial for a road trip celebration of what remains of America's Mother Road. There's a bipartisan push to give it federal parks protection as a national historic trail.
0:41The most endangered aspects of Route 66 right now are the authentic motels and auto courts and the bridges.
0:48Rick Steves:And we'll also tip our hats at the goddesses of great Western art. Come along for a fun ride in the hour ahead. It's Travel with Rick Steves.
1:00Rick Steves:Author John Steinbeck dubbed it the Mother Road as an escape route from the Oklahoma Dust Bowl. We'll celebrate 100 years of U.S. Route 66 and its neon-lit nostalgia a little later in the hour. And a guide from Italy introduces us to the all-season appeal of the Dolomites, where the Alps put on an Italian accent. Let's start today's Travel with Rick Steves with a return visit from master stonemason Richard Rhodes. Like a lot of young people, Richard Rhodes left home after high school to find his way in the world. But while he started out studying at the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art, he ended up in Italy searching for a modern connection to medieval rituals.
1:41Rick Steves:And he found it in the form of the Freemasons Guild in Siena. As one of the oldest operating craft guilds, it provided a direct but secretive link to Europe's great cathedrals, passing down techniques from master to apprentice for centuries. When he somehow convinced an old master mason to give him a chance, Richard became the first non-Italian apprentice in that guild in over 700 years, and, as it turns out, the last as well. Richard has worked as a sculptor and stonemason ever since, drawing on the lessons he learned alongside the cathedral masters in Italy. His book is Stone, Ancient Craft to Modern Mastery, and he joins us now on Travel with Rick Steves for a stonemason's tour of Europe.
2:26Rick Steves:Richard, thanks for being here. My pleasure. I'm just so fascinated by your book, and it has me wondering, how can appreciating architecture like you, like a stonemason, enhance our travel experiences? How do you view things differently than the typical tourist visiting the great sites of Europe? Well, it's a beautiful question. When I walk those streets and see those buildings, I really, I feel the difficulty of, A, they had a plan, They had an idea, a vision for what they wanted to build. Then they had to go find the stone, find the source of the material. And then moving stone is a major obstacle that every civilization has to solve.
3:07Like, how did they get it, you know, whether it's two miles away or 100 miles away or further? You know, the Romans brought slabs from all over their empire, thousands of miles. And how did they do that? And then, of course, it had to be processed. You know, how do you shape a stone, break a stone? And then there's the templating and the geometry and crafting it into specific shapes and then numbering it, keeping track of it all. There's no computers.
3:33Rick Steves:And stacking it up so it doesn't fall down. And then you've got to get it up there with no crane, with no scaffold. Didn't they build Gothic cathedrals higher and higher and higher until they started to finally fall down and they realized, I guess, we've reached our limits. I discuss failures, masonry failures, because the genre is full of catastrophic failures. And a lot of times... And there's a lot of learning that happens from failures. And there's a lot of wonder, because it's very evocative to me that when I go to the gate at Mycenae, the Lion's Gate... Oh, the Lion's Gate. And I look at the size of those stones, and I think that was from centuries and centuries before Christ, people even back then looked at it, and they said, this is Cyclopean architecture.
4:16Rick Steves:It couldn't have been done by people. It must have been done by the Cyclops because these stones were so large. How did they get them up? It's a wonder through the ages. It's a wonder. And actually, I think the emotional power of particularly the Lionsgate is something that even today has tremendous impact as you walk up that incline. And I discuss this in the book. But imagine, that's a 25-ton lintel. So it had to be quarried. It had to be moved up there. It had to be lifted up. And then they weren't really sure of the strength of it, right? So the emotional impact of that entry sequence, which today we're so used to, right?
4:51We have hydraulic cranes. You take a big stone. People must have been scared to walk under it.
4:56Rick Steves:They'd notice that right away. How can you have such a wide expanse of stone with no support? That's right. You know, one thing I was very impressed by, Richard, in your book was thumbing through it. Stonework is a common denominator of societies and cultures. You've got massive stone pyramids, of course, in Egypt, but you got the same thing in Mexico, and they weren't communicating. You've got ancient walls in China, and you got amazing walls in England. That's right. And it must strike you as somebody who's given this a lot of thought that, of course, an international guild like stonemasons can share their notes, and that's kind of why it's there, but a lot went on in isolated evolutionary circles.
5:35That's right, and I think it's fascinating to discover how these completely isolated civilizations came to the same conclusions many times on what was the tooling, what was the best method. And although the expression is radically different, I mean, if we look at the Inca stone walls, you know, there's nothing like that in the world. And we compare the way they did that and maybe look at Great Zimbabwe.
6:00Rick Steves:But the precision, you can't put a piece of paper through those stones that the Incas did. When was that? That was like 1450, yeah. You know, almost at the time of Shakespeare, were crafting walls from a Stone Age civilization. Right. They didn't have a written language, they hadn't invented the wheel, and they didn't have metal tools. And they could do things that blow us away today as we visit. This is Travel with Rick Steves. We're getting a stonemason's perspective on our sightseeing right now with Richard Rhodes. His book is Stone, Ancient Craft to Modern Mastery, and it explores the relationship between humankind and stonework and lays out the sacred rules that Richard learned as an apprentice in the Ancient Freemasons Guild in Tuscany.
6:45Rick Steves:Richard operates a sculpture studio in Seattle, and his website is RhodesWorksDesign.com, and Rhodes is spelled R-H-O-D-E-S. You know, as a traveler, I'm always curious about the types of stone, and I've got to say, it's kind of confusing to me. What do you encounter in a European vacation? You've got marble, limestone, granite, porphyry, tufa, What else do we have? Yeah, so really the main building stones, right? There's thousands and thousands of different types of stones, but basically you have granites. Limestone and marble are essentially the same chemically, but through a metamorphic change, marble has lost its grain structure.
7:25But it's basically, it's all calcium. Is one higher quality than the other? They do different things. Okay. If you're carving, you want a stone without grain structure, so marble is ideal. That's why sculptors would prefer marble. Yeah, and then sandstone. So those are the three main ones, but of course you also encounter slates on the roofing. You know, there's other types of stones, schists and things that you'll find in landscape walls, but the main three stones are really your granite, your limestone, your marble, and sandstone.
7:58Rick Steves:So you put limestone and marble together, and sandstone, that's just kind of like cheap stuff. No, there's actually some very excellent sandstones. Quartzitic sandstones, for example, are... Quartzitic. There's a word I've never heard. Incredibly hard. Well, that means that the grain of the sandstone is quartz. Oh, so sandstone can be hard. Incredibly hard. And in Poland, southern and lower Silesia, there's beautiful golden-colored quartzitic sandstone that is phenomenal. And in our travels, isn't it fascinating to realize is that to a great degree, the great building of one region is determined by what kind of stones are there.
8:40Rick Steves:That's right. I mean, like in Poland, you find a lot of brickwork. That's right. And you give credit to the man-made stones in your book. Right. I think, you know, if you go to a place like Siena or Poland and you see brick, brick is a man-made stone, right? Yeah. We learned how to make a stone, effectively. And you sit on that main square in Siena. It's nothing but bricks. Oh, my gosh. And it's gorgeous. So a funny story to share. I was so thrilled. Imagine I come out of the suburbs in California. I'm a kid from America. And I end up in this guild. And one of my very first jobs was to clean the bricks in the Piazza del Campo there.
9:16And I'm standing there proud as punch. I'm like, this is like the height of my life. You're a brick cleaner in Siena. I'm a brick cleaner in Siena. But I'm in one of the most fantastic urban spaces in the entire world. And I think I have won the lottery. You found your niche, senor.
9:35Rick Steves:Richard, I'm always impressed by the lack of great old buildings in societies that built with wood. I mean, when you think about it, go to Norway, and there's not a lot left from the Vikings. There's a little bit, but most of it is burned down. I mean, just by the nature of life, if you're surrounded by wood and you're cold and wet, you've got to be careful of fires. Fire was also a weapon, right? So you come to sack a village, the easiest thing is to just burn them down and let everybody run out. So what you really recognize is how—I mean, it's the story of the three little pigs, right? He huffed and he puffed and he couldn't blow the house down because it was made of masonry or brick.
10:18But when we see the medieval work, we see society is prosperous enough. They're taking time to build extraordinary buildings. But the fireproof quality of stone is a major, major part of that.
10:34Rick Steves:Richard, if you could plan your dream trip to Europe as a pilgrimage to appreciate important works of stone, what would be four or five sites that you'd be sure to check out? You know, this is the hardest question you've asked me because Europe is loaded with magnificent sites. But I think at the top of the list, you have to see Stonehenge. You have to see the Sagrada Familia, of course, in Barcelona. the Acropolis in Athens. I mean, the Duomo in Florence, Chartres, Pont de Garde. And in Rome, of course, the Pantheon, the Colosseum, St. Peter's. If you're in Istanbul, Hagia Sophia. Oh, my word.
11:11The Blue Mosque. The Basilica's Eastern, I think, is the most interesting interior space in all of Europe. And then it also has the Theodosian walls, which stood for a thousand years until the invention of gunpowder. absolutely phenomenally interesting.
11:27Rick Steves:All of those are just breathtaking, and with the exception of the Sagrada Familia, none of them are really contemporary. Can you imagine a world with the same approach to architecture as they've had in past times with that permanence and that solidity and that connecting the generations? Can you imagine a world like that today? Well, there are some. There are few, but there are still some extraordinary buildings. Are there today? But it's the exception, not the rule. It's the absolute exception. Well, the guild sort of died out, and you got in there just at the very end. You're the, quote, last apprentice.
12:09Rick Steves:Are you burdened with a little sense of responsibility? You know, that's a terrific question, and I am. And I think that the book really is my answer to that because I've felt some great disappointment that the world has changed and I never really had an apprentice that stuck with me that I could transfer these secrets to. And so the book is my legacy to give those secrets to, you know, so they won't be lost. And the first step is for us to know enough about it so that when we're privileged enough to travel, we travel in a way where we can better appreciate the stonework of past ages. Absolutely.
12:45And this, you know, it makes our travel experience and so much richer if we know a little bit about it.
12:49Rick Steves:So much richer. You nailed it. Richard Rhodes, thank you so much, and thanks for writing Stone, Ancient Craft to Modern Mastery. Thank you. Richard Rhodes documents the world's great stone works in his book Stone, Ancient Craft to Modern Mastery. We also link to his earlier visits with us at ricksteves.com slash radio. Up next, the high mountain meadows and trails of Italy's rooftop are calling, where you'll find spectacular mountain scenery and a surprising cultural mix under the jagged peaks of the Dolomite Range. Later, we'll take the ultimate American road trip down Route 66 on Travel with Rick Steves.
13:30Rick Steves:Just last year, I enjoyed something I'd long dreamed of, hiking Italy's dramatic rocky rooftop, the Dolomites. This Italian wing of the Alps with its characteristic limestone peaks offers some of the best mountain thrills in all of Europe, if you ask me. It's also a cultural meeting ground where Austrian tidiness meets Italian flair, with locals who may be Italian, but their heritage, their ancestors, and their first language is German. It's been in the news lately because this mountainous region, along with the nearby cities of Milan and Cortina, was hosting the 2026 Winter Olympics Games. It's much loved for skiing in the winter and hiking in the summer, and I'm delighted right now to have on Travel with Rick Steves a local tour guide who calls the Dolomites home for part of every year, Andrea Vicenti.
14:19Rick Steves:Andrea, thanks for being with us. Thanks, Rick. It's nice to be here. Thank you. Now, first of all, as we talk about the Dolomites, do you say the Dolomite? Dolomiti in Italian. And in English? Dolomites, I suppose. Dolomites, yeah. German? I don't know. I don't know either. Maybe the Germans just go with that. Yeah, just go with that. But let's get the cultural and historic lay of the mountainous land here because it is a mix of different cultures. Absolutely. If I see a sign on a mountain pass in the Dolomites, it would probably be in three languages. Yes, depending on where you are, it will be in three languages, which are Italian, German, and Ladin.
14:54Ladin is the very local community right in the middle of the Dolomites, the heart of the Dolomites.
14:59Rick Steves:I always think that would just be sort of a random little chunk of people that were there and doing their thing in ancient times before the Germans and the Italians were even around. Well, they were actually, they're a blend of several civilizations, and so is their language, which has the dignity of a language on its own, and it's taught in their schools. And they're a very proud community with a strong identity. But still, it's not dying out. No, absolutely. They're fighting to keep it up, and I'm honored to be their guest where I live. It's a Latin area. So just 25 ,000 people speak that language nowadays.
15:31Rick Steves:By the way, does the European Union, I get the feeling the European Union values these little language groups. Yes. Not only they encourage their protection, but they fund it. They fund it. They give it money. They fund it to give it money, not only to the Ladin one, but to all the minorities to preserve their identities. Because I would think if it was just left to the individual countries, they might think, well, that's an inefficiency. That's a problem. I don't know if I want to give that money, but Brussels gives it money. Yes. And then before, why would there be German in the signs? And why do people speak German?
16:04Because that area belongs for... It's Italy. It's supposed to be Italy. Yeah, it became Italy in 1919 in a painful way after the end of World War I. This is how it became Italy after the battles that were unfortunately fought there. Now we go there and we say heaven on earth. But back then people would die there because that was the front line. The clash was happening right there between the Italians and the Germans and the Austrians. Actually, the Austro-Hungarriks. That was World War I. That was World War I. Exactly.
16:29Rick Steves:Because we always think of World War II and World War I. Wow. I was just hiking and I remember I was exhausted. and I got up to the very top of this peak and I thought I was way above the tree line and I thought this is just a very, very, very remote place. And then I found World War I battlements with World War I-era machine guns. Absolutely, yes. They're still there. They're still there. Rusty but still there. Yes. So a long time, 100 years ago, the Germans were kicked out. They lost the war. Yes. And Italy took it. Italy was united in 1870 and they got this in 1918. 1919, yeah. Okay, so then how did the Italian government in Rome make the Germans willing to live as a part of Italy?
17:12Rick Steves:Was that a challenge? Oh, yeah. There are two answers to this question. The first one is the fascist answer. The fascist answer was you have to forget who you are and become something else. If you still want to be part of the German culture, you have to migrate north. You have to go to Germany. And we will bring colonies, create a colony. an Italian colony in that area. Had Germany and Italy won World War II, that would have happened. Luckily, I'm sorry to say that. If Mussolini and Hitler won. Yeah, they agreed. They agreed to do that. They would have moved out the Germans and made it all Italians.
17:46Yeah, that was the plan. That was the plan. And they would have driven out all the Germans that wouldn't have agreed to become Italians.
17:53Rick Steves:Because I think Mussolini was running a fascist dictatorship a decade before Hitler. Yes, he started in 1922. Now today things are much nicer. Oh, yeah. But people still speak German. Yeah, they're free to speak German. They're taught three languages at school. So they speak three languages, all the kids there. And they elect, they, I am a resident there. You're given a piece of paper and you have to declare your nationality. Oh, really? Yes, for the... But you're through and through Italian. There's no German in you. Yes, yes. I'm a guest. I consider myself a guest. So you go up there and you spend a good, you live there and in, near Rome.
18:26Rick Steves:But my street address is there. Your street address is in the Dolomites. So when you think of the cuisine that you, as a resident of the Dolomites in northern Italy, if you think of the cuisine, what you eat, what is the benefit? What's the good thing about living up there for you? For eating? Oh, well, first of all, you have a, you struggle to find a little bit of the products I'm used to. So the Italian stuff, it's a trick, isn't it? Well, it's hard to find fish. If you have to go shop, you have to take the car and drive for quite a while to get some fish. and the food that you eat is way more related to the German culture.
19:00So you have goulash, you have noodles. You have, of course, the krauti. And krauts. Krauts. Kartoffeln. Kartoffeln. So you got the German names for the potatoes,
19:11Rick Steves:the trout, the pretzels and all that in Italy. Yes, that's it. That's it. That's so great. Tour guide Andrea Vincenti splits his time between Italy's dolomites high up in the country's northeast corner and living in Orvieto, which I think is one of the country's most charming hill towns. It's just south of the Tuscan border, about halfway between Siena and Rome. You can hear what Andrea loves about Orvieto from an interview that aired earlier this year. It's on our website at ricksteves.com slash radio. Andrea, if you're dreaming about going to the Dolomites, there's beautiful super freeways, the Autostrada.
19:46Rick Steves:Si. Not in the mountains, but to get you to the mountains. Yes. What important tourist cities are nearby? Well, you have Bolzano, of course. That's the nearest. Then you have Trento, Padova. Padova, that's... I love Padova. That's Padova. It's on the way from Venice, from Venice, which means if you land in Venice from the U.S., then you can go across Padova and go to Cortina. In fact, for my last visit on my vacation, I flew with my girlfriend to Venice. We had a few nice days in Venice, and then we took a car straight from Venice to Cortina. And it's easy. That's a win-win. It's a great thing.
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20:20Rick Steves:and then you're just a three-hour drive from Munich. Exactly. So if you want to extend... Over the Alps to get to Germany, three hours. You have Switzerland, Germany, and Austria, all in range, all in range. And even Slovenia, the western part of Slovenia. It's a territory that touches many different cultures. So if you're curious to broaden your perspective, that's a good place to go. If you think about the unique view, the look of the mountains, it's in the Alps. but it looks Dolomites. What makes the Dolomites look like the Dolomites? I would say the sunset colors, which they call enrosadira, which means the mountains becoming pink.
21:00Oh, yeah. Alpen glow.
21:02Rick Steves:Alpen glow. So it warms up and it kind of glows with the sun going down. I'm not a geologist. I don't know why. But the stone, the unique stone, limestone, is different than what you might see elsewhere because it's just very... It's only there. It's really unique. and the Dolomites are beloved among hikers. I have heard so much about it and just this last year I got my chance to go there. My girlfriend and I spent a week hiking out of Cortina. All right. And it was a beautiful trip. Tell me about your experience hiking in the Dolomites and your advice. Yes, well, that's how I got in touch with the Dolomites, hiking.
21:38The hikes are so famous because the landscape is glorious but at the same time they are gentle hikes compared to the high mountain hikes that you can find anywhere else because the peaks are not so high. I mean, the Marmolada, which is the highest, is 3 ,300 meters. So it's... 11 ,000 feet. Yeah, it's... Instead of Mount Blanc, which is like... Instead of Mount Blanc, that's almost five kilometers high. And you find mountain huts everywhere to refresh yourself. So you don't have to walk for like four hours before you find refreshment.
22:09Rick Steves:I love stopping at these alpine farms. Yeah, that's right. And, you know, they still farm, but they make a lot of money selling lunch to hikers and a nice tea or something, this juice. This juice, yeah. Wonderful. Alpen something or other juice. It's special for the Alps. There's a lot of the mountain culture mixed in with the mountain glory. And they're subsidized. The farmers get subsidies to keep the landscape as it is because humans interact with nature to create the beauty, and I think this is what we have to credit them for. And people pay taxes to do that? Well, in that area, some of the money of the taxpayers goes back to the farmers in order to preserve the landscape.
22:50Rick Steves:And being a little silly, what I was trying to say is Americans would be very difficult to pay to do that, you know. But in Italy, people, I think, respect the value of that. Well, yes. Italians don't love to pay taxes either. But in this case, we all believe, I think, it's money well spent. Oh, that's good. Now, there's the dramatic difficult hikes. I was on the Alta Via, which was the classic big hike. And then there's the more gentle hikes. And the highest alpine meadow in Europe is Alpi de Sousa. Yes, yes. What a beautiful spot. Yes, yes. Tell me about the Alpi de Sousa. The Alpi de Sousa, I think, is the place on earth that I know the most because my parents would bring me there when I was a kid.
23:30So it would be like 45 years ago. Every year we would go there. And, yeah, when I was mentioning gentle hikes, that's what I had in mind.
23:39Rick Steves:You cannot have more gentle mountain beauty than the Alpeh. It's like going to the beach at 6 ,000 feet. And you've got beautiful farms. You've got rolling fields. You've got flowers. You've got a shuttle bus to take you around. You've got some ski lifts you can take. But no traffic. That's very important. No traffic, right. The cars are kept away. No regular traffic. And no regular traffic. But if you want the hikes to become harder, you can connect to the Alta Vias from any direction. So it's heaven and earth for hikers. You know, one thing, Andrea, I really like about the Alpi di Susi, when I'm making a guidebook chapter, I need a comfortable home base.
24:14Rick Steves:And you can have the big city, Bolzano, which is a great city. But it's down in the valley, and it doesn't feel like the mountains very much. But up in the mountains, there's a place called Castelroto. Castelroto, sì. Or Castelruth. It's always a little confusing because you've got the German and you've got the Italian. Castelruth, sì. I can't say it in German. So the Alpi di Susi. Seizraum. Seizraum. You have to change it, boy. Seizraum. Seizraum. Or Albi di Susi. Yeah. Well, there's Castle Rotto. Castle Rotto, sì. Or there's Castle Ruth. Castle Ruth, yeah. And tell me about Castle Ruth, because I just love it.
24:46Rick Steves:It's a perfect home base. Yeah, it's a perfect home base. From there, you can either hike directly to the plateau, which is on top, or you can take the gondola from the nearby village of Susi, which is just literally five minutes away from Castle Rotto. Castle Rotto is the typical landmark village of the Alps. You know, I think after the Olympics, which featured Milan, and of course the Dolomites, a lot of people are going to be dreaming about going to the Dolomites. And I think they need to do their studying because there's the big ski resort town, Cortina, which is nice. Yes. But there's also the, to me, Castle Ruth is a little more of a real town.
25:25Rick Steves:It's not a resort. Every time I go there, there's something real. There's something honest with the local community going on. Absolutely. I love to be at the little kindergarten at 1 o 'clock or whenever the mothers come to pick their kids up. It's just a delight. I love to hike up to the little bluff where it's the cemetery. I love to be in the small bandstand on Wednesday night when the high school is performing. And you get this when you're in a little town, could be any number of towns, but not a bigger resort, but a real town.
26:02Rick Steves:Women are often idealized in classic European art as Venus or a virgin. We'll tip our hat to them in just a bit. Right now on Travel with Rick Steves, Andrea Vincente is our guide to the spectacular Dolomite mountain region of the Italian Alps. It offers some of Europe's most spectacular settings for skiing or summer hiking and cycling. Andrea's website is andreavincente.com. That's A-N-D-R-E-A, and Vincente is spelled with an I at the end. Andrea, what's a moment in your childhood maybe that you remember from Alpidesusi and Castle Ruth? I believe the first time that we went there. I was already eight years old, so I can remember my father's face and the twinkle in his eyes is something that...
26:51It's one of the reasons why I still like to refresh that memory when I go there. I mean, not only because I had good times there, but also because my family and my dad had good times there. And in going back, I bring it back to life, and it seems to me that we are still living it together, experiencing it together every year.
27:08Rick Steves:I remember looking at the Schlearn, that mountain bluff, and it stands like, what does Schlearn mean? I think it means some kind of like mythical monster or witch or something like that. But it looks into the misty, lush Po River Valley area further south into the Italian peninsula, and you're up there in the Alpine, up in the mountains. And beyond that bluff stretches Italy and you're right there where Italy is welded to the rest of Europe, into the mountains. And you just feel glad to be in the Dolomites. A great sensation, indeed. Andrea Vicenti, thanks so much. I would love one day to hike with you in the Dolomites.
27:46All you have to do is let me know. Thanks so much, Rick. Looking forward. Grazie. Grazie. Thank you. Ciao, ciao. Ciao.
28:06Rick Steves:I'm Rick Steves, and we're taking a couple minutes to enjoy Europe's artistic masterpieces with Gene Openshaw. Gene's the co-author of many of our books, as well as his latest book, Michelangelo at Midlife. Hey, Gene, it always amazes me that so much of Western art focuses on a single subject, women. Yeah, it's the figures that so many people relate to. I mean, think of it, Mona Lisa with her mysterious smile, Venus de Milo. And a highlight for me every time I visit the Louvre is climbing those stairs as if I'm ready to worship at the foot of the victory. Winged victory, yeah. In fact, when you think of it, some of the oldest statues that have ever been fashioned by people back in prehistoric times are of women.
28:52Rick Steves:No one knows whether they were meant as goddesses or... I'm fascinated by these prehistoric fertility figures. Very important for people. Or maybe they were just art. I mean, no one really knows for sure. And fast-forwarding a few centuries, you definitely see the female form with the ancient Greeks. When I'm in a museum and staring at one of these Greek statues, these perfect goddesses, they all had idealized features. You know, their poses are so perfect. And to me, it's not just their great beauty, but they represent the awesome power of the supernatural. And then, yes, we kind of make our way through history, fast forward again up into medieval times when there was a new goddess, as you would, in town.
29:37Rick Steves:And, of course, that would be the Virgin Mary. The Virgin Mary, Mary the mother of Jesus. It's hard for modern people to really fully appreciate how omnipresent Mary was, how extremely popular she was for people in medieval Europe. Yeah, the poor peasants, they bonded more with Mary than with the, well, with the toxic masculinity of a judgmental god. And then, by the Renaissance, we get yet another aspect of the female form. Graceful Venuses, like Botticelli's Venus. I mean, a lot of people call her jokingly Venus on the half show, but it's the birth of Venus rising from the sea. Symbolizing the springtime of the Renaissance.
30:16But on the other hand, you know, think of artists like Vermeer and Rembrandt in Holland. Their women are quite different. They're not the idealized goddesses,
30:26Rick Steves:but they're rugged working women, ready for anything. You know, I'm really inspired by, you could call them the women of the French Revolution. By the time of the French Revolution, there was no better way to represent the fight for democracy than with a strong woman leading the charge. You know, Rick, it seems clear that whether as goddesses or saints... Or Rosie the Riveters. From the very beginning, it's been women that have expressed the highest ideals of the human race. Gene, I just love talking with you about the wonderful variety of European art and how it can give us new and important insights.
31:04Rick Steves:Thanks a lot. It's always a pleasure.
31:12Rick Steves:Gene Openshaw is the author of Michelangelo at Midlife and he was my travel buddy in a youthful adventure we took from Istanbul to Kathmandu You can read about that in my book On the Hippie Trail Gene co-authors the Rick Steves Art Books Europe 101 and Europe's Top 100 Masterpieces as well as a six-hour European art miniseries we produced called Rick Steves' Art of Europe. It screens on demand at PBS Passport and at ricksteves.com. Let's get ready now for a nostalgic road trip in search of 20th-century America and what remains of the legendary Route 66, from the Chicago Loop to the Santa Monica Pier.
31:55Rick Steves:That's right around the corner on Travel with Rick Steves.
32:02Rick Steves:America's most famous road trip has taken on legendary status, even though most of the two-lane route was replaced by interstate highways years ago. But Jim Hinckley believes there's something special about the old Route 66, something that's worth preserving. As the old song tells you, it starts in Chicago, winds through 2 ,400 miles of prairie farmland, small towns, and desert landscapes to its terminus at the Pacific Ocean in Santa Monica. Jim joins us now to update us on how the Mother Road is being revived with the help of state, tribal, and National Park Service efforts and why what he calls America's longest small town continues to attract motorists from around the world looking for that air-streamed time capsule of tail fins, neon signs, and a place to find a good bowl of chili along the open road.
32:56Rick Steves:Jim, thanks so much for joining us. You bet. Thank you. So give us a little context here. Why was the Route 66 built? When did that happen, and what did the route mean to the United States when it first opened? The highway was certified, designated in 1926, one of the first U.S. highways. At that time, the U.S. highway system was created. But from its inception, Route 66 has always had the best press and publicity. It's really unique because it links so many of the nation's early road systems. For example, in New Mexico, the pre-1937 alignment of Route 66 is pretty much laid right over the Santa Fe Trail.
33:35And in Illinois, a lot of the road follows the Pontiac Trail, which was a Native American trade route and was used by the British explorers.
33:43Rick Steves:It was in the 19th century that we had the train line lacing together America. And then with the advent of cars, I guess it just made sense to have a highway system that did the same thing? Yeah, in the southwest, specifically Arizona, you had a Native American trade route that connected the Hopi villages with the tribes in California. And when some of the early explorers like Father Garces in 1776 came across that part of the country, they followed those trade routes. Lieutenant Beale came through with his camel caravan in 1850s. And then the railroad followed him and then the National Old Trails Road and eventually Route 66.
34:19Rick Steves:Now, that's all history, and I'm all over that. But for a lot of people, it's sort of a popular icon of the ultimate road trip. Where did that mystique come from? How did Route 66 become such a big deal in popular culture? It's an international phenomenon today. And one of the most amazing things about Route 66 is that officially the highway doesn't exist anymore. It was decertified in 1985. In February of 1927, Cyrus Avery put together a group called the U.S. Highway 66 Association, and they started a branding campaign marketing Route 66 as the main street of America. And then we had John Steinbeck's The Grapes of Wrath.
35:00He talked about it being the mother road. Nat King Cole wrote a little song about getting your kicks on Route 66. In the early 60s, we had Todd and Buzz and their Corvette traveling the road on television every week.
35:12Rick Steves:Boy, if a road wanted to get famous, they had all the ingredients, didn't they? Yes. So it's nicknamed America's Longest Small Town. How so? The entire highway has become a living, breathing time capsule with an overlay of Disneyland. And the towns along Route 66, they almost appear as quirky neighborhoods in a long, small town. They're all linked together by one common factor, which is a love and passion for Route 66. 50 years ago, I could see that, you know, when you had the old Chevys weren't old Chevys. They were today's Chevys. Today, the reality is there's going to be more efficient and faster roads and overpasses and sleepy towns being bypassed altogether.
35:56Rick Steves:To what degree does the nostalgia survive in this modern time? Do you have to make a point to get it or are you going to find it if you're just taking the direct route? Both. If you're not into nostalgia and simpler things, Route 66 is not going to have any appeal at all. But if you like the non-generic world, if you like sitting down in a cafe family-owned since 1927 and having the owner stop by to talk to you, and now there's an international dynamic that's really fascinating on the road because you can be sitting and having pie in Texas panhandle, And here will be farmers. And here will be some motorcyclists from the Netherlands that have been dreaming of traveling Route 66.
36:40Rick Steves:I just love that, that it attracts so many people. And it does have that international allure. I mean, Germans especially just love to drive. And for a German, a dream vacation is to come to America and rent a big car and do Route 66. There's Route 66 associations now that are active in about a dozen countries. In 2016, the first European festival took place in Ofterdingen, Germany. And there's also tour companies in five countries that specialize in Route 66 tours. There's actually international groups that come here and organize tour to experience it? Yes, that specialize exclusively in Route 66 tours.
37:19They operate out of Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Brazil, Czech Republic.
37:24Rick Steves:We're getting ready to motor down the old Route 66 right now on Travel with Rick Steves. Our guest, Jim Hinckley, works with the Route 66 Economic Development Committee, and he's the author of America's Longest Small Town. Jim's book profiles the historic sites and colorful people you can encounter on any part of that classic road trip from Chicago to L.A. There is more online at jimhinckleysamerica.com. Michael's listening in from Knoxville, Tennessee, and joins us on the line at 877-333-7425. Michael, have you driven Route 66? I haven't, but it's something that I really hope to do someday, and actually my friend and I hope to do it by bike.
38:08We're both avid baseball fans, and we enjoy cycling, so we're wanting to kind of bookend a portion of a trip down Route 66 from Chicago to St. Louis and maybe catch a couple of Major League Baseball games and see some historic sites along the way.
38:22Rick Steves:That sounds fun. Jim, any thoughts for biking parts of Route 66? Yes, the Adventure Cycling Association has designated Route 66 a bicycle corridor, and there's quite a few folks that are bicycling the road now. There's a couple tour companies that are doing that, and Zenik Juricic from the Czech Republic bicycled Route 66 as part of a documentary. But you mentioned an interest in baseball. You might check out Commerce Oklahoma on Route 66. where Mickey Mantle grew up. Oh, wow, that's a great suggestion. I think it's a little outside of our bike trip, but I think it's certainly worth a road trip because that's what Route 66 is really all about, is the Great American Highway.
39:02So that's a great suggestion.
39:04Rick Steves:So you've got Mickey Mantle's place. You've also got some other sites along the route, Jim. There's actually a museum, right, in Pontiac? Oh, yeah. Pontiac is an amazing community. They've harnessed to the Route 66 Renaissance as a catalyst for revitalization. and it's really dramatic. The Society of Gilders has opened a museum there. The official museum for Pontiac, Oakland Automobiles is there. The Illinois Route 66 Museum is there. In Pontiac, is that in Illinois? Yes. Okay. So you've got plenty of sites to see there. Also, there are some towns that are just sort of time warps. You write in your book with some beautiful pictures about Cuba, Missouri, sort of a Norman Rockwell village.
39:47Yes, most definitely. We just really enjoy Cuba, especially during Cuba Fest, the third weekend in October. The town is really amazing. Just one example. They have a shoe store there that's been in business since 1953, the same family, and they still maintain and have a cobbler on staff to repair boots and leather goods.
40:07Rick Steves:All right. Well, hey, Michael, have a good time biking and then grab a car and do the rest of it on four wheels. Absolutely. All right. Happy travels. Jim Hinckley is known in Europe as Mr. Route 66 for the historical preservation work he promotes to tourism associations there, as well as in Australia and across America. Jim and his wife chronicle the highway's colorful nostalgia and historic attractions in the book America's Longest Small Town. Jim's also written the big book of car culture about American pop culture's love affair with the automobile, and he's the co-author of Ghost Towns of the West.
40:46Rick Steves:Paul's on the line from Mansfield, Texas. Paul, what's your story with Route 66? I traveled three and a half states and would always travel the interstate, but then I figured out that the small towns off the interstate, off of the old Route 66 area, were the places that you could always find the best diners. Traveling, I would focus on the smaller towns west of Dallas and would go all the way out to Scottsdale, Phoenix, Tucson, out in that area. There's a lot of small towns still surviving out there off of what used to be Route 66, and now it's all interstate. And I would suggest people to definitely get off the interstates and go into these small towns because they're very unique.
41:35Rick Steves:And, Paul, are you speaking from experience as a vacation road tripper, or were you on the road with your work? Well, I was traveling on the road with a clothing company. So it's a working experience out there on the road. That would be nice when you are on the road for your work to just know where you can find the most characteristic experiences and shops and diners and cute little towns instead of the big modern strip mall kind of places. The small towns are still surviving, and the best diners and restaurants are always in those smaller towns when you get off the interstate highways. Do you have a particular favorite you'd recommend from your experience?
42:13I liked them out in West Texas, New Mexico. See, I think Benson, Arizona was an area off of Route 66, if I remember right. So really, I think it was more of the Arizona and New Mexico areas that were highly interesting and enjoyable places to travel.
42:34Rick Steves:But the bottom line is get off the big modern interstate and get on the old road. Yes, uh-huh. That was the fun areas to go to. All right. Well, thanks for your call, Paul. Okay. Thank you, Rick. Nice talking to you. This is Travel with Rick Steves. We're talking with Jim Hinckley. His book is about Route 66, America's Longest Small Town. Jim, I understand that you are really passionate about preserving Route 66. It's part of our culture, and I would just think it's really threatened by petty souvenir hunters that want to take down anything that's old and nostalgic, and by development and by people who just want to be more efficient and make more money.
43:11Rick Steves:What is your take on the plight of Route 66, and will it be around in 50 years? Well, we're already making plans for the highway centennial as a national celebration. Also, with the Route 66 Road Ahead Partnership, there's a movement through Congress at this point to have it designated a National Historic Trail. With that said, the most endangered aspects of Route 66 right now are the authentic motels and auto courts and the bridges. Over 95 % of the original bridges are scheduled for demolition or replacement. And that just changes the incomplete idiosyncratic nature of the highway to lose those bridges.
43:49Rick Steves:But, I mean, what can you do if they need to be demolished? It's probably because they're no longer safe. Well, there's a multitude. Now that there's a push for bicycle tourism, the bridges can be rehabbed for that. Some of the bridges, like Lake Overholzer Bridge in Oklahoma City, They've managed to preserve that connecting two parks along, and they put their newer highway on the other side of the bridge. Right. A lot of communities aren't aware of the economic potential of the Route 66 renaissance. But the communities that do, it's really quite amazing what's happening. People from all over the world are investing in old motels and diners and renovating them.
44:27The businesses that have survived, like the Ariston Cafe, family-owned since the 20s, same location since 1936, they've managed to thrive quite nicely in the era of Renaissance.
44:39Rick Steves:Well, this is something that I think people can contribute to just by the way they consume. And as you travel Route 66, you can stay in small, family-run, old-school motels, and you could eat at the characteristic diners. Would that make a difference? Oh, most definitely. And it's an enjoyable experience. And most of the people on the road, even though they want the authentic experience, they don't want the Grapes of Wrath experience. So the people who are renovating these motels, they understand the need for modern conveniences. But they preserve the basic essence of the Route 66 experience. And Route 66 has always been a highway in a state of evolution.
45:16The highway in 1930 was totally different from 1950, and the highway today is different. You have electric vehicle charging stations at renovated gas stations. The world's only electric automobile museum has been established along Route 66. So it's a really evolving dynamic on the road as well.
45:34Rick Steves:So it stretches, what did we say, 2 ,400 miles all the way from Chicago to Santa Monica. What's the very traditional kickoff of the road and what's the final terminus at the Pacific Ocean? Well, most of the people, about 75 to 80 percent of the people start in Chicago and go west. The terminus of the highway, the original terminus, was at 7th and Broadway, downtown Los Angeles in the theater district. In the 1930s, it was extended into Santa Monica. And it actually ends at Olympic and Lincoln, about three blocks from the Pacific Ocean. But who's going to stop there? And Santa Monica Pier is just three blocks away.
46:13So Santa Monica Pier has become the – That would be it, yeah. The traditional end of the road.
46:19Rick Steves:Now, if you're looking for the very best of this sort of classic old-time nostalgia, you write about a stretch of the old highway that's being saved from modern motorways that's in Kansas. It's a short stretch that goes from border to border. Is that a good stretch, or where would you be sure that people experience? Well, Kansas is kind of unique. It's a 13-and-a-half-mile stretch of Route 66. The longest uninterrupted segment of Route 66 is from Seligman, Arizona to Topoc on the Colorado River, almost 160 miles. And that's a real delightful time capsule. You have places like Grand Canyon Caverns and the Hackberry General Store.
46:59You have the sharpest grades, the steepest curves anywhere on Route 66. Just a scenic wonder where Stevie Wonder would have trouble taking a bad photograph. It's just an absolutely beautiful, beautiful area.
47:14Rick Steves:Now, if you were going to take me on just one little moment of the road where you're in the best mood possible, what little spot would you look for? What experience would you want me to be able to share with you? I would take the pre-1937 alignment of Route 66, which is basically from Tucumcari in Santa Rosa, New Mexico, on a loop up through Santa Fe and down to Albuquerque. It's an absolutely beautiful stretch of roadway. The history is palpable. You have Pecos National Historic Park that's been there for over 1 ,000 years. You have the Pigeon Ranch, which was a hostelry on the Santa Fe Trail, and a field hospital during the Battle of Glorieta Pass and the Civil War.
47:58Then you have, of course, Santa Fe and Old Town Albuquerque, and with a very short detour, Las Vegas, New Mexico.
48:05Rick Steves:That just sounds like a vacation in itself. This is Travel with Rick Steves. We've been talking with Jim Hinckley. And Jim's written a book about U.S. Route 66. It's called America's Longest Small Town. Jim, you have worked so hard speaking all over the country and working tirelessly to preserve the Route 66 heritage. Why does it matter so much to you? Well, what colonial Williamsburg was for 18th century America, Route 66 is now for 20th century America. It literally has evolved into a living time capsule. And you have so many aspects that are preserved there. From 1936 to 1962, there was a book written called The Green Book for Negro Motorists.
48:47And it's kind of a bad chapter in American history, but there's some wonderful historic locations that survive that are related to this. You have a tremendous Native American history along Route 66. and you have a history of immigrants. The founder of the Ariston Cafe, he was a Greek immigrant that came here after World War I. And you have all these wonderful, this American tapestry that's preserved along Route 66.
49:15Rick Steves:Oh, man. Jim Hinckley, thanks for your passion for this and thanks for joining us to share a little bit of this and give us an appreciation of America's longest small town, Route 66. You bet. Jim Hinckley has a podcast with advice for Route 66 road trippers. It's posted with his video clips on his website and on YouTube under Jim Hinckley's America. You also can hear what Jim had to tell us about Ghost Towns of the Wild West, which ran on Travel with Rick Steves a couple years ago. You can listen from our show archives with a link in this week's show notes. And that's at ricksteves.com slash radio.
49:55Won't you get hip to this timely tip When you make that cat life on your trip Get your kicks on Route 66
50:17Travel with Rick Steves is produced by Tim Tatton, Kaz Muralhull, and Donna Bardsley at Rick Steves Europe in Edmonds, Washington. Andrew Aikling and Sherry Court upload the shows to our website. Sheila Gerzoff handles affiliate promotions. And our theme music is by Jerry Frank. When you're on a road trip, you can listen to Travel with Rick Steves on one of more than 500 other radio stations. You'll find a list of where and when at ricksteves.com slash radio.
From the publisher
A master stonemason considers the great sites of Europe and shares what these enduring structures can teach us about permanence, craft, and human ambition. Then an Italian tour guide sheds light on the Dolomites, the spectacular setting where Italian, German, and Ladin traditions meet. Plus, an aficionado of American road trips tells us about efforts to revitalize historic Route 66 as a national heritage trail.
For more information on Travel with Rick Steves - including episode descriptions, program archives and related details - visit www.ricksteves.com.