840 Paul Theroux's Great Canadian Road Trip; Korean Nunchi

21:34Rick Steves:But one thing fascinated me. You had what you called a transformative, as close to a spiritual experience you'd ever had with this beautiful, rugged, vivid nature of Alberta and British Columbia. I've had a similar experience in Banff and Jasper National Parks. It's like I've seen a lot of mountains, but there's something about that. Tell us how that was so transformative for you. I'm alone in the car driving from Calgary through Banff, and it began to snow. It was April. I wasn't expecting snow. I wasn't expecting the sight of these mountains. And it was an epiphany. I had an epiphany. I had the nearest thing that I've ever had to a spiritual experience, just being in my car on an empty road with these big fat flakes of snow coming down, whipping around.

22:27It was like a bridal veil unwrapping before me. It was so wonderful. And it wasn't just for that five minutes. It went on for Half an hour, 40 minutes as I was driving. And I thought, this is amazing. You feel so uplifted by it. I even pulled over just to experience it, you know, on the side of the road, just to watch it. And I was driving through Banff National Park, but it's an experience you could have in the Rockies. But the Rockies, there'd be more traffic on the road. There were no other cars on the road. And, you know, Canada's a very lightly populated country. So you're alone a lot of the time on these roads.

23:08There's 400 or 500 miles between the cities across the prairie. So the solitude, the beauty of it, is something that you experience. You think, this is all for me. Just me, I'm seeing this. So I really felt uplifted, and I feel sentimental about it now. I would go back there any time to do it.

23:30Rick Steves:I thought it was interesting that you reported that people told you the Canada I grew up with was very different than what it is today, reminding, I think, travelers that you may feel we're all wearing our flannel jackets and being quintessentially Canadian, but that's a little bit nostalgic, and we're not quite as simple and innocent from a slower time, but today things are changing. Well, of course, Canadians kept saying that and saying it with reason because a Canadian who's 45, 50 years old grew up in a different Canada. The Canadians that say that were growing up in a Canada that was whiter, with a smaller population, with a different government.

24:18And so they're adjusting to new immigrants, and particularly new immigrants who live in ethnic bubbles, ethno-burbs. But Richmond, which is a city outside of Vancouver, is entirely Chinese. So to go to a city that is ethnically homogenous is amazing. And so a Canadian seeing that, they've never seen that before. That's entirely new to them. And that's an effect of not assimilating people. So it's odd for people. But it adds to the spice of life. I think they're adjusting to it at the moment. But it's unlike the States. And you would go to Canada because it's not the United States. It's Canada.

25:08And it has a distinct flavor. And all of that is part of it. That's the thing that you learn. Canada is different. And you go to a place because it's different.

25:19Rick Steves:This is Travel with Rick Steves. We've been talking with Paul Theroux. His book is True North, On the Road in Canada. Paul, I was fascinated how in the beginning of your book, right in the first page, you said, I'm 85, travel's not the same as it used to be, there's all these people getting clickbait, and the world is covered with tourists and travelers like ants on a bruised peach. I thought, whoa. And you said, this is probably going to be my last book. And then at the end of your book, you just say, you know, I was wrong. I mean, here you are. I can picture you parked at the Peace Arch, you know, this beautiful border between Seattle and Vancouver.

25:59Rick Steves:And you've done your trip. You've done TransCanada. And you go, you know, I think I was wrong. I'm going to keep traveling and keep writing. Tell us what was going on there. That's a very interesting transformation. It surprised me, but I had so much fun. It was so enjoyable traveling that I thought I'd like to go back to Canada. My dream is 60-odd years ago, I was a teacher in Central Africa. It suddenly occurred to me, I could go back to my school. I'd like to go back to Malawi, where I was a teacher. That's a possible, could be a book, could be a trip. I don't know. But I was reinvigorated.

26:40I came back feeling younger, better informed, enlightened. And I thought, I could do this again. You know, if I stay healthy, if I'm spared by the Almighty, I would like to keep going. Why not?

26:54Rick Steves:And then I really enjoyed this. You wrote, travel is an old man's strategy for more time. It's an enlargement of life. What a very important understanding in a philosophy. Say a bit about that. It's been studied that when people go on vacation, the time spent on vacation is enlarged in their life. so that one month on vacation is like three or four months at home. So it's an enlargement. The way it takes up the space in your mind on a holiday, you're in a different place, you're meeting different people, you're more relaxed, you're not working. And so it is like having more time, which is why I recommend to any older people out there who are listening to this, If you feel as if you're just a Samuel Beckett character looking at the grave, leave home, go somewhere, go to Mexico, go to Italy, Canada, and the time you spend there will be an expansion of your life.

27:59Rick Steves:I just got back from a 50-day trip, and I feel like there's no better way for me to live a day than on the road, soaking it up, talking to people. I think your book is an inspiration in that regard. And we were talking about how driving alone without reservations, to go whichever way the wind blows you, it seems that's not an option, but it is an option. I mean, almost anybody who can travel, if you can go on a cruise, you could also rent a car and have Froot Loops for breakfast in Kamloops, and you could have these magical experiences. You don't need to write a famous book. You don't need to write a book that's published, but you can talk to people.

28:42Rick Steves:You can take notes. You can challenge your preconceptions. You can open yourself up to new dimensions of the world, and you can come home a younger person, a person who's got a broader perspective, a person who would like a world with fewer walls and more bridges. It's a beautiful opportunity. And in a lot of ways, I think your book can inspire people to have a new lease on life when it comes to exploring the world. And it doesn't have to be the wider world. It could be, I would say to any of my neighbors, I'm in Cape Cod, Massachusetts. I'd say, get your car, drive to Mississippi. Go to South Carolina.

29:19Go to Alabama. go to Arkansas. It's a different world. For a Yankee to go down south, they would be traveling in a world that they don't know at all. And an American can travel to parts of the States in a car, and you don't have to make a reservation. I guarantee if anyone disputes this, try it.

29:38Rick Steves:And if you meet a cranky border guard like Miss Sweeney that she wrote about, and I love the way you started quoting the doors, people are strange when you're a stranger. is so classic, Paul Theroux. But you meet this cranky lady at the border, and she's just, what's with this and what's with that? And it's like a rude welcome. Don't take it personally. Take it as part of the fun of being on the road, and don't let it bring you down. They found a pocket life in my car, and they said, this is a weapon. I said, it's a weapon. This is for cleaning my fingernails. Come on. But then, you know, people say to me, so what, they fined me$500 for having a weapon.

30:19And my wife said, that must have really been a letdown. I said, you know, when bad things happen to a travel writer, they have something to write about. So it's a gift. Bad things happen, except getting sick. No one wants to hear about you're getting sick. But I thought, no, if someone's rude to you, make them famous in your book.

30:40Rick Steves:Ah, that's good. Paul, thank you so much for inspiring us once again with the new book. And I would say, keep on traveling, baby. Thank you. I'm going to take your advice.

31:03Rick Steves:Paul Theroux writes about his cross-Canada road trip in True North on the road in Canada. You can listen to Paul's many conversations with us over the years in the Travel with Rick Steves show archives. That includes observations about American expats and how his lifetime of travels inspired the essays in his book, The Vanishing Point. Plus, hear what he encountered on solo trips across the hinterlands of Dixie in rural Mexico, on trains across Africa and Asia, and the characters he wrote about inspired by living on Oahu's North Shore. We'll help you find all that. Start with the notes for this week's show at ricksteves.com slash radio.

31:41Rick Steves:Up next, Uni Hong suggests it may be a type of sixth sense, Something like what Sherlock Holmes, Steve Jobs, and maybe even your cat possess. She explains how a Korean tradition known as nunchi can help you too. That's next on Travel with Rick Steves. Hello, I'm Joanna Lumley. I'm from London, and it's absolutely fabulous to be here traveling with Rick Steves. I'd love to boast to my friends that I spoke to Rick. We're all sitting with bibs around our necks and our eyes glittering. And I'm from Patsy. I think, Rick, you're fantastic. Cheers, sweetie.

32:24Rick Steves:Euni Hong says Koreans have a superpower, a sixth sense for winning friends and influencing people. It's called Noonji. It's a subtle art of gauging people's thoughts and feelings in order to build harmony and connection. This is a tradition of Korean emotional intelligence, and it goes back more than 5 ,000 years. Euni was last with us on Travel with Rick Steves to talk about the birth of Korean cool. Now she's back to take us deeper into what it means to be Korean and to explore traditions that she found, traditions that can help us all when we connect with people in our travels. Her latest book is called The Power of Noonji, The Korean Secret to Happiness and Success.

33:03Rick Steves:Euni, thanks so much for being back with us. Always happy to talk to you, Rick. So, Noonji, it's literally eye measure, I guess, in the Korean language. What is it, just in a nutshell? Sure. It is the art of taking the room temperature, basically reading the room. And you do that by assessing the whole atmosphere in the room and not just the individuals in it. And you do this by sort of reading people's thoughts and feelings with the purpose of getting along with people and creating an overall atmosphere of harmony in the room. So it's dealing with a group of people rather than one-on-one? Right.

33:43I would say the main difference between nun-shi and just generally being observant, well, there's two of them, I would say. The first big difference is, yeah, the atmosphere on the whole, the idea of the whole being more than the sum of the people in the room.

33:56Rick Steves:Is that related to feng shui? Yeah, that's a really good way of putting it. It's the feng shui of the room. With people instead of furniture. With people, yes, exactly. Like who's in the room? Who's the oldest? Who's the youngest? What does their relationship to each other seem to be? Do they look like there's just been a tense moment or are they laughing at something? And you wrote, Euni, in your book that nunji is perhaps the most important skill you'll ever learn, a skill that gets to the core of being human. Wow, that's quite a statement. Well, I don't think it's an exaggeration either because, well, you know, Aristotle, he's not Korean, but he said that humans are by definition social animals.

34:34You know, it's what makes us different from other animals is that we literally need other humans to survive, right? The reason the polis exists, you know, Plato even talked about this. It's not because we enjoy each other's company. It's because the city or the town is the smallest unit of people who can actually survive. It's literally based on human survival. So nunchi, in turn, is a way of surviving with other people. In fact, there's a Korean expression, half of social life is nunchi. So that's 50 % is a lot. So I don't think this – I think it's very fair to say that it's the most important skill perhaps that you'll ever learn.

35:13Rick Steves:And you called it the guiding principle of Korean life. Now, why Korea? Is it uniquely applicable to Korea? Is there a reason it's more predominant or important in Korea? Or does it work equally well in any society? It's just other societies don't appreciate it so much. Sir, I mean, when I describe nunchi to people, no matter what culture the person's from, they will recognize something analogous in their own culture. But what makes Nunchi Korean has to do with Korean history. In the approximately 5 ,000 years of Korean history, the country has supposedly been invaded 800 times. I don't know if that's accurate.

35:51But they actually say, oh, the only country that's been invaded more times is Scotland. So they were basically conquered by everyone from the Mongols, the Manchus to the Japanese because Korea, the peninsula, is really strategically located between China and Japan. And at various points, everybody kind of wanted it. It was like Gibraltar. So because of these constant sort of outsiders taking over, Koreans had to develop nunchi in order to survive. because if you're in any kind of subordinate situation, even if it's just like a civilized one, like employee and boss, you have to be able to read the boss's mood.

36:34You have to be able to read the master's mood if you're a slave.

36:37Rick Steves:Yeah, you have to be able to read the colonial overlord's mood. Exactly. Oh, baby. So I'm sort of, I'm always a little bit skeptical about any woo-woo kind of stuff. And, you know, I'm thinking about what is the practical, really, come on, what is the practical value of this? But you wrote about your personal life story and how you can really attribute quite a lot to your appreciation of Nunchi. Give us the story here. Right. I mean, I actually share your skepticism of anything woo-woo, but I think that Nunchi is different because it is really pragmatic and you can be as selfish or as altruistic as you want it to be.

37:14And proof that it actually works is that I was able to use it when I was as young as 12. I was born in the U.S. and I lived here until I was 12 years old. And then my family decided suddenly to move back to Korea or my parents were from there. I had never lived in Korea. I didn't speak any Korean because in those days when I was growing up, there was a belief among a lot of people that it was bad for the kid to be raised bilingually. Anyway, so we only spoke English at home. So despite not knowing any Korean, we went to Seoul. I was immediately placed in a regular Korean public school, and I had to use my nunchi.

37:55And it's a good thing my parents had taught me about it beforehand because nunchi isn't really just about being smart or studying hard. It's about, you know, that expression, work smarter, not harder. You know, because I didn't know the language, I had to rely on nonverbal cues, and nunchi is literally reading nonverbal cues.

38:15Rick Steves:Oh, so if you're sort of unable to communicate, if you're mute in a room of people, you can still understand a lot just because you're observant in a Nunchi way. Absolutely. And, you know, since this is a travel show, I guess what we're going to talk about in a minute is how Nunchi is super helpful when you're in a foreign environment for precisely the reason that it's nonverbal. But just going back to my own experience. So, you know, I'm 12 years old. You know, not stupid. But definitely in this classroom, not the sharpest knife in the drawer either. Yeah. But nonetheless, you know, just by looking.

38:52Rick Steves:But your secret weapon, you're a nunchi ninja. Right. The secret weapon of the disadvantaged. In my case, I had to just watch what people are doing. And, you know, so like even if you don't know the language, you can see, you know, that guy seems to be the teacher's pet. You know, the teacher's always smiling when he talks. So if I'm ever in trouble or don't understand, I'm going to ask that guy. Wow. You know, I'm going to do what that guy does. Well, that makes sense. And you can see in your life, it really was much more than woo-woo. We're learning about the Korean skill of reading a room and gauging others' thoughts and feelings right now on Travel with Rick Steves.

39:27Rick Steves:Our guest is the author Euni Hong. Her latest book is called The Power of Noonji. And her website is unihong.com. That's spelled E-U-N-Y. Euni, in your book, you lay out the eight rules of Noonji. And I'm just going to state the rule. And if you could just expand on it just a bit, we'll go through that so our listeners can better understand this whole concept because it's totally new to me. Sure. Go ahead. Number one, empty your mind. Right. I know that sounds actually really difficult and possibly vague, but it basically just means remove prejudices that you have in the situation that you're entering.

40:05Like how do you know something is a prejudice? Like if you enter a new country or a room or situation and you're already annoyed to be entering it, that's a type of prejudice.

40:13Rick Steves:All right. That sounds good advice. Number two, be aware of the Nunchi observer effect. What's the Nunchi observer effect? Right. So in physics, there's something called the, I think it's called the quantum observer effect or something like that. Basically, things change by being observed. And when you enter a room, even if you're doing nothing except entering it and looking at people, you're already changing the atmosphere of the room. So, in other words, you don't have to make a big song and dance. Right. So be sensitive to that. Be tuned into that. Right. Don't tell a joke immediately just to let people know you're there.

40:51You're already changing the atmosphere.

40:52Rick Steves:Number three, if you just entered a room, remember that everyone has been there longer than you. Watch them to gain information. Right. I mean, that just makes sense, right? If people have been there already, they know what the atmosphere is. They know what was just discussed. You don't. So if you just barrel in without taking... Yeah, you're the newcomer, so just lay low and catch up by observing. Exactly, just like when you're new in a workplace. Number four, never pass up a good opportunity to shut up. This is possibly the most important rule, actually. It's not just because by shutting up you don't insult people.

41:28It's because if you listen to people, and I would say, well, there's an expression by the Greek Stoic epitetus, which is we are given two ears and one mouth so that we may listen twice as much as we speak. I think that's the right ratio. Listening to speaking should be two to one. There's two reasons for this. One is it makes the other person feel heard, which is all anyone really wants. They usually don't care if you agree with them. They just want to be acknowledged. The second is it's to your advantage because it's calming. It reduces anxiety to plug into the other person. And the more you know about them, the more material you have just to be Machiavellian about it.

42:06Like anyone who's good at business or negotiation knows that the person who is nervous about silence always loses.

42:14Rick Steves:Wow. You know, and I've been learning that just through the School of Hard Knocks without studying Nunchi. And I've been coming around to that awareness that in many cases, I'm used to jumping in, dominating the conversation, stepping on people's lines and so on. But if you just kind of take a breath, listen, observe, take it in, let other people show their cards, it really makes a lot of sense. Number five, manners exist for a reason. Right. I would say, you know, in 21st century modern life, people think that manners are not necessary and that they're just some patriarchal holdover that's designed for the upper class to make the lower class feel bad.

42:51This is not true at all. Manners exist because it makes other people around you feel comfortable. And so basic manners or even table manners are a good way to start off using nunchi. So let's say that you – bread plate is usually on the left in America. Let's say you just got to be you and you want the bread plate that's at your right. Okay, great. That means the other person hasn't got a bread plate. So how is that you being you?

43:20Rick Steves:You know, that could be related to rituals exist for a reason also. Absolutely, yes. Absolutely, yes. You write how the exchange of business cards is a ritual in Korea, and it's there for a reason. Exactly. I mean, people are like, why do you still have cards in the 21st century, and why do you spend 10 seconds looking at the card when you get it? It's all about creating that beat, that extra pause, so that everyone can evaluate each other. Number six, read between the lines. Right. Everyone thinks they know what that means, but you can only do that if you're actually paying attention. And most people just give lip service to that advice because everyone, you know, in an argument will end up saying at some point, I'm not a mind reader.

44:05Why didn't you tell me? You know, that's not really a nice thing to say. You know, you're accusing the person of lying or concealing things when, in fact, they're probably just afraid to talk to you or they don't know what they're feeling. So it is your job actually to read their mind or at least try to read nonverbal cues.

44:22Rick Steves:So recognize people don't always say what they're thinking. Yeah, and that's actually their right. Right. And if you're thoughtful and if you realize that's part of the whole style of talking, it gives you an advantage. Number seven, causing unintentional harm can be as bad as intentional harm. Yeah, this is probably one of the more controversial things I say in the book because, you know, people think that they should get half credit if they do something, but they didn't mean to do it. I mean, from a moral point of view, absolutely. Intention matters a lot. And, you know, you shouldn't be penalized if it just goes bad.

44:59Practically speaking, a lot of times the damage you create is equal to, you know, whether you intended to harm people or not. And, you know, blackface Halloween costumes are a really good example of that. Even if you genuinely thought it was a joke, the other person got hurt. So the result is the same.

45:16Rick Steves:So unintentional is its harm nevertheless. And because it was unintentional, it really means you were not very thoughtful about it in most cases. Right. And it hurts you as much as them. So it's to your disadvantage. And finally, number eight, be nimble, be quick. Right. So as I mentioned, speed is really important to nunchi. And in fact, in Korea, if you are skilled at nunchi, they don't say this person has good nunchi. They say this person has quick nunchi because adaptability is important. You don't just read the room. You have to take into account any changes in the room. Wow. This really is like a new way of, it shines a new light on interaction with people and connecting and just being out there as a social, part of the social scene.

46:03Rick Steves:Euni Hong moved with her family from Chicago to South Korea at the age of 12. She credits the skills of Noonshi with helping her to get to the top of her class within a year of moving to Seoul, even before she became fluent in Korean. Euni believes this Korean art of building trust by gauging other people's thoughts and feelings is an important skill that may also be a key to happiness. Her book is called The Power of Noonshi, and she's our guest right now on Travel with Rick Steves. Youni, this is a travel show, and connecting with people is fundamental to good travel. Let's cap this discussion with an example of how Nunchi-deficient travelers might really lose something and how somebody who's tuned into Nunchi can travel better.

46:49Right. Well, what's the number one mistake that travelers make? It's that they assume that everyone is like them. If you're traveling, you don't have to learn everything about that specific culture. I mean, it's great if you do, but what's important is that you pay attention when you get there. And I'll give you a really sort of alarming example. Like something like 15 years ago, I don't know if you remember this, in New York City, there was a Danish tourist who left her baby in a stroller on a sidewalk in the East Village or the Lower East Side, rather, while she was eating in the restaurant inside.

47:26So the baby was unattended, sitting in a stroller that was just next to like a lamppost. Somebody obviously called the police and the police arrested the woman and the child just temporarily was taken into Child Protective Services. And she said – and the consulate, the Danish consulate said, in Denmark, it is normal to leave the child outside a restaurant because it's – they should get fresh air. And why do they want to be indoors where everyone's drinking or whatever? And the police commissioner of New York said, it's not our concern what's customary in Denmark. So in other words, you know, this is not how we do it where I am.

48:07It does not fly anywhere. I mean, in an extreme example, you could literally lose your child. I mean, she eventually got it back.

48:13Rick Steves:So that was bad nunchie on that Danes part. Terrible, terrible. But, you know, in smaller ways, you know, why would you want to have bad nunchie? I mean, maybe you won't lose your child, but people you ask directions from might not give you directions. clerks who would otherwise help you might not help you. I used to live in France, and that's a complaint a lot of Americans have, is that French people are rude. But if I interrogate, if I prod them, I'm like, okay, I know what happened here. You didn't say bonjour or even hello. That's a perfect example of applying Nunchi in a, we're so Eurocentric, you know, and everybody knows in France you've got these complexities and so on.

48:50Rick Steves:But if you just stand at the edge of the room and observe for a little while, then you'll be not fighting the norm, but going with the cultural flow. Yes, exactly. And like the number one enemy of Nunchi is arrogance. And that is what makes the difference between an enjoyable holiday and a non-enjoyable holiday is your own attitude. So, Yuni, is this something in your daily walk? You're on vacation, traveling in a foreign land, you're going to work, and you want to just be an effective part of the team. Is this something that just becomes like breathings, just without even thinking? or is this something you've got to remember and remind yourself, okay, Nunchi, let's do it the right way?

49:29Some people are definitely naturally good at it. For me, it's something I have to switch on, actually. I would say I wasn't really born with very good natural Nunchi. It's just sort of like any kind of habituated behavior, like if somebody has anger management training or something, it's the same thing. They can manage it, but they have to remember to manage it.

49:48Rick Steves:Thank you so much. This is fun to get an insight into The Korean Secret to Happiness and Success, The Power of Noonshi, and how we can apply that at home and abroad. Thank you so much. Yuni Hong's conversation about Korean Noonshi comes to us from the Travel with Rick Steves archives. Her books, The Power of Noonshi and The Birth of Korean Cool, have also been translated into German, French, Italian, Spanish, and Portuguese, Bengali, Mongolian, and, of course, Korean. You can read what Euni's written on Korean culture for the New York Times and find her posts on Blue Sky. It's at her website, unihung.com, and that's spelled E-U-N-Y.

50:34Travel with Rick Steves is produced by Tim Patton, Kaz Muralhall, and Donna Bardsley at Rick Steves Europe in Edmonds, Washington. Affiliate relations are by Sheila Gerzoff. Website uploads are by Andrew Wakeling and Sherry Court. Our theme music is by Jerry Frank. You'll find more about our guests at ricksteves.com slash radio. We'll see you next week with more Travel with Rick Steves.

51:00Rick Steves:The Rick Steves Guidebooks, over 50 of them, are consistently the best-selling series of guides to Europe. That's because we lovingly update them in person so you can enjoy maximum travel thrills for every mile, minute, and dollar in your next trip. Find them at your favorite bookseller and at ricksteves.com.