215. How to lead with confidence, not control. With law firm CEO, Tim Lupinacci

0:00Al Elliott:One of the most powerful leadership philosophies in the world comes from a Disney movie. Yes, a Disney movie. And not just any Disney movie, Frozen 2. Frozen 2 is a great movie. And our guest today is Tim Lupinacci. He credits a song from Frozen with helping him lead 1 ,400 people through a global pandemic. Tim's built his entire leadership philosophy around the idea that everybody leads, regardless of your title, corner office, or even perceived power. I'm Tim Lupinacci. I'm the CEO and chair of one of the largest law firms in the United States, Baker Donaldson. I've really developed a passion around leadership and this philosophy that everybody leads in the context of everyone has influence and everyone has impact and can have influence and impact on others.

0:44Tim's approach flies in the face of traditional leadership thinking, especially in the legal industry. He talks openly about seeing a therapist. He admits when he doesn't have the answers. And he literally passes ceremonial batons to junior staff members to show he trusts them to lead.

1:01Al Elliott:And in a world where leaders are told to be more masculine, this so-called soft approach might seem to be a bit of a mistake. But Tim has turned Baker Donaldson around, consistently delivering record financial years, massively increasing employee engagement scores, and now they boast a much lower employee turnover than industry averages. So if you've been told your leadership style isn't brash enough, or you've struggled with imposter syndrome in a senior role, this episode is right up your street. Hello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioral science meets workplace culture.

1:36Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.

1:43Al Elliott:My name is Al. I'm a business owner. And we are here to help you simplify the science of work. As we said, today we're going to discover how Tim uses a Disney song as his leadership mantra, why he believes acting like Winston Churchill is the key to business success, and we'll hear his biggest mistake, the taught in leadership as a daily practice, not just a destination. We'll join Leanne and Tim after this very short break. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across three teams and four systems.

2:15Al Elliott:And in our case, it's about 216 ,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it. What you should be doing is using HubSpot because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talk to a customer, marketing already narrows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more. Nice. Check out Hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

2:47I'm Tim Lupinacci. I'm the CEO and chair of one of the largest law firms in the United States, Baker Donaldson. I've been in the role about six years and I've been practicing law about 35 years. and this philosophy that everybody leads in the context of everyone has influence and everyone has impact and can have influence and impact on others, regardless of title or corner office or power that you perceive you have, you can be a leader. And then we need to all get better at it every day. So that's really what I try to live out in leading my firm. I noticed that, as you say, you run a huge firm, but you've still call yourself a student of leadership.

3:27Why do you think so many CEOs do perhaps stop learning when either they get that top job or start to enter senior leadership? I think that a lot of individuals, when they get to that point that they're finally leading the big team that they wanted to lead or lead the organization or even lead the big committee at a nonprofit, they think they've arrived and they have all the answers and that people should just follow them because now they're in that senior role. And I've just learned I'm not the smartest guy around. I work with 1 ,400 really talented individuals, and I want to try to learn something from them every day.

4:06And I want to learn from other great leaders. Like I said, listening to podcasts, reading books, and particularly, I'm in the legal profession, the legal industry, and I read some things about the legal industry and legal industry leaders. But I find most value in trying to get diverse views, different views, different types of industries. and then how can I take one or two ideas that I learned and apply it in what we're trying to accomplish here? So I just think being curious is just part of my nature because I don't think I know a whole lot and I'm just trying to get better. And I think a lot of leaders do feel that pressure that they're meant to have all the answers.

4:43I mean, can you tell us about maybe a moment where you've realized, I don't know what I'm doing here, but this is how I'm going to approach it? I think, Leanne, that's a great question because I kind of view that in that vein. And I know people have different views about this, of sort of that imposter syndrome that people are going to find out that I don't know what I'm talking about. And I've struggled with that too. And I think it's just because you're, particularly when you're not in the leadership role, you're always striving for something, you're continuing to have that ambition, or you find yourself in a leadership spot, and then you look around and think, people are looking to me.

5:16And that was, it really became pointed to me when the pandemic, the global pandemic happened because I'd been in my role about six months and there wasn't a playbook, right, on what to do next. Now, ultimately, the legal profession, a lot of professional services firms did fine during the pandemic, but I really had to ask myself, you know, they're going to realize I don't know what I'm doing because really a lot of people don't know what they're doing with the pandemic, but, you know, I wasn't prepared for this. And I really landed, this is kind of a little silly thing, but it's a little mantra that I repeat in my head.

5:48At the time the pandemic happened, you know, there was the Frozen movie that was such a worldwide success. There was a second Frozen movie. And one of the songs in there was one of the characters singing about taking the next right step. I think in the story arc, she was struggling and didn't know what to do. But she said, I'm just going to take the next right step and do the next right thing. And our COO and I of the firm really landed on that as a way to say, yeah, we have our doubts and others may have doubts, but we're going to do the next right thing and really then talk about the why behind it.

6:19And it was interesting when I unpacked the story of that song, it was really written by some folks who had really struggled with some depression. And that's really something that helped them. You wake up and you don't want to get out of bed. Well, the next right step is to get out of bed. And the next right step may be to make the coffee. And then the next right step is to move on. So that's really what I've tried to do when I get in those times of self-doubt. I need to have that confidence that my colleagues have put me in this role to do the best I can, to help serve them the best I can. And certainly, I'm going to learn.

6:53I'm going to grow. If I don't know anything, I need to ask questions. I need to get experts surrounding me that do know it. But just to take that next right step. So it's helped me. I think, as you said, there's pressure to always have the answers when you're the one in charge. which, I mean, having that humility, having that honesty that I don't know what to do, I'm going to engage the experts that will help me and I'll take that next right step. Have you found in your experience that humility helps people trust you more or less? In order to help lead effectively, I think some people have said, you know, it's like herding cats or whatever.

7:27And I don't know if that's true, but I really have to build those authentic relationships. I need to spend that time, you know, as I call it, like breaking bread and sharing things, or Churchill called dinner table diplomacy, getting around the table, sharing things, learning about each other, what drives them, what are their ambitions, because they're very high-functioning professionals around. And so, if I build those relationships and they trust me and I'm authentic about challenges I'm going through or questions, I want their feedback, that may make a decision that they don't agree with, but that at least they understand where I'm coming from and they understand the why behind it.

8:04And I found that that helps. Now, it doesn't always mean that people don't leave for whatever reason, but I just found that so invaluable. But it's not only even at that high stakeholder level, like the shareholders, the owners of the firm, but even walking the halls and talking to our business services and staff professionals and just listening to them and understanding them. and then they get to know me and know my heart and know what we're trying to accomplish and we're really trying to help them thrive in their career ambitions. I think that's just, it helps organizations, you know, perform even better.

8:38Al Elliott:So Tim's talking about Churchill's dinner table diplomacy idea. And this is really, really good because it's so actionable. You're literally just having meals with people, but with intention. And what Tim's describing really is the difference between transactional and relational leadership. so he's genuinely investing in understanding what drives his team. And he does this at every level, not just with like the fancy shareholders, but when he's walking the halls or talking to reception staff. Now that's how you build a culture where everyone feels like they can lead. And notice as well Tim's vulnerability.

9:10He shared that he sees a therapist that creates psychological safety for others to show up authentically to.

9:16Al Elliott:So if you're thinking my leadership style might be a little bit too soft, Tim is about to show us the business case. How has that influenced Tim? the organizations you've worked in having that approach to leadership, which is quite unique in the industry that you're in? Well, you know, like I said, it's interesting. You know, we've been able to have several years of record years financially, but more importantly on like engagement surveys with our colleagues and building market presence. But that all comes back to my view to our people and really pouring into them, speaking into them, as I said, that they are a leader in their area of expertise, if they're a receptionist, if they're a legal support coordinator or paralegal, or the lawyer has the biggest book of business in our firm, if they're a leader and if they step up and get better as a leader, then we're all going to move forward together.

10:06And it's a challenging, complex world. You know it, you see it. And certainly across all geographies and all industries, mental health and wellness is something that people are struggling with more today than they did, say, five or six years ago. and it's hit the legal industry even more. So in addition to giving the skill building and the tools to help in the day-to-day professional advancement and professional development, we are really focused on, we call it Baker Well, because everything has Baker since our firm's Baker Donaldson, Baker Well, we have Baker Fit, things like that. But we've really been intentional about destigmatizing the fact that many of us need mental health wellness counseling, tools, tips.

10:48And that goes to your point, Leanne, of showing up as your best self. I mean, I'm very vocal. I talk to a therapist every six weeks or so, and that kind of try to help destigmatize it. I need a safe space to be able to process some things, right? And so, as we encourage our colleagues with that, with coaching, with access to therapy, and just a safe space to talk, I think it helps them better perform and it helps the organization do better. So I'm convinced if you really focus on the people and caring for them, then they're going to show up their best and care about the organization. They're going to have a bigger purpose in what they're doing and then the organization can thrive.

11:25Al Elliott:Tim's built this amazing culture, but here's the thing. Not everyone's going to buy into it immediately. And that is really important for leaders to understand when you're changing culture, especially in traditional industries like law, you're going to get resistance. People are going to test whether you're serious about these values. And I think what we're about to hear is really, really important because Tim had to prove that emotional intelligence and relationship building actually drives business results. It's not just about being a nice guy. It's not about being a nice guy. There's this false dichotomy that you're either a results driven leader, woff woff, or a people focused leader.

12:01And Tim's showing us that they're the same thing and research backs it up as well. So emotional intelligence isn't just good for leaders. It's really good for teams. leaders who are self-aware, emotionally regulated and able to connect with others don't just perform better themselves, their teams do too. In fact emotional intelligence has been found a key predictor of team performance, job satisfaction and organisational commitment. So when Tim leads with empathy it's not distraction from results, it's how you actually achieve them.

12:32Al Elliott:Coming up after this very short break we're going to hear how Tim deals with the sceptics, how to handle big egos at work and his take on Mark Zuckerberg's leadership style. Did you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's us by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network? We actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work. And we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode. And two out of three of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not going to say wit. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast.

13:08Al Elliott:It's brought to you, we need to do this in threes. the Hobspot Podcast Network the audio destination or business professional Seamless, seamless Tell us about your latest episode, Phil We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work and we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business and brands as well It is, it's such a good show Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing.

13:45But there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better? It can. And Are We All Just Status Seeking Monkeys? Oh, I am.

13:58Al Elliott:Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts. But come back. Yeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in.

14:10Al Elliott:Right, let's rejoin the interview and hear how Tim handles the sceptics. We see a lot online on the media about very different styles of leadership, very coercive styles of leadership, very masculine styles of leadership to pull up on Meta and Mark Zuckerberg's call for more masculine energy. Do you ever get any pushback from people that maybe this is all a bit too soft or weak? I guess probably more early on when I first started in the role, because I haven't like, I mean, that's just been who I am. And of course, to some extent, the board selected me as the next CEO, knowing that that was kind of how I am.

14:46But I did have people saying, and like I said, we had really plateaued in several instances, but for many people were plateaued financially. So they were like, had their eyes on it. So we're going to be able to turn the ship around or turn it to the right direction. And so when I was, as you said, some of the soft skills or things that say, well, that's not important, how we're going to drive more revenue and drive more profit. I did have to explain why I thought this was important and why emotional intelligence was important in not just in the leader of the firm, but leading teams, engaging the teams, and in better serving clients.

15:19I think relationships internally are important, but relationships externally with our customers and clients are equally important. And those are maybe soft skills, but they're skills that help differentiate you in serving as a trusted advisor to your clients. So definitely got some pushback. I'd listen to it. I explained why my philosophy was and that if they didn't want to participate in some of the training that we did or some of the opportunities where we had town halls about the mental health and wellness, that was their choice not to participate. I think over time that they've seen how it really does work hand in glove in helping the firm thrive and have better financial performance.

15:57I think people sort of have a little bit more buy-in. But there's still some folks that could care less and they just think that's just Tim talking about whatever, but they go on their way. I mean, and they're still, I mean, they're a productive person in the firm. They're not demeaning anything. They're not, you know, trying to stop what we're doing, but that's fine. They can decide to, you know, take advantage of opportunities or not. But yeah, you're exactly right. A lot of people, that's just a different mindset. And I think with that different mindset, there are some leaders that are a little bit addicted to being the most powerful person.

16:27the smartest person in the room equally there's going to be times where you will be the smartest room person in the room tim you will be a person that needs to to give direction or offer that to people who are looking for direction i mean in those moments how do you how do you exert that power in a way that motivates people rather than than perhaps um causes fear or um or the more negative consequences. I don't want it to come across like this is some nirvana and everything's perfect. And is everyone just row in the same direction all the time? I mean, there are very difficult decisions that we have to make.

17:08Certainly in the pandemic we did. And anytime you have people involved, you know, and it may be individuals that will probably thrive in other organizations, and you have to make those hard decisions and go ahead and do that. I mean, you can do it with grace and compassion, and we really try to do that. But I think the biggest part of it for our colleagues is to know the why and to hear that it was really thought through what the decision was. We think we're making this decision in the best interest of the organization as a whole and ensuring our longer-term success. And while for some individuals or for some who don't think it's the right decision, try to understand why we're doing it.

17:46And again, to understand the thought process. I'm very much involved. I want to have our board engaged on those really tough decisions so that they can help explain it and unpack that for people. But that gets back again to it can't be this type of command and control and just do a decision. And if there's fallout, let it happen. I've got to listen. And I'm very open. And some decisions we've made, I have even young attorneys or even some professional business services staff reach out and say, I really don't agree with this. Can I talk to you about it? And I listen to them and I kind of explain more of what we're doing.

18:25And most often they say, well, I understand it. I don't necessarily agree with it. So you definitely, because I've got to lead this organization and it can't be what one of the 1400 individuals best impact, you know, how that helps them the best. It's got to be for the good of the organization. But just being accessible and talking through it, I think is also important. And there are hard decisions and people disagree with it. And, And, you know, in some instances, they may decide to leave because they don't think this is the right place for them. And I got to, you know, just early on, I would really fret over everyone who left and think it was an indictment of me.

18:58But over time, I realized it's just people thrive in different situations, different circumstances. I love what we're doing here and it may not be for everybody. So but it is it's something that I think leaders have to be really intentional about talking about the why behind some of those hard decisions. How do you handle a leader who maybe is a little bit more ego driven than fits within the culture of the organization that you're building? That's another great question. And it is, I think it's hard work. It takes time and intentionality. I do love that, again, that Churchill model of breaking bread and sharing things around like the diplomacy around the dinner table.

19:33Now, I'm not sitting there saying I'm smoking cigars and drinking brandy like he did in all hours of the night, although that was great for him. So I really do try to build those relationships, particularly with some of the individuals who may be the – have the sharpest elbows, so to speak. And then at times that may lead to they've taken some actions that are kind of against our values, against our culture. And it's me then following up, hopefully having built a relationship to say, hey, this is not acceptable in what we're trying to do. We'd love to get you some coaching, some counseling to really help through this.

20:07And in some instances, they take that up and they learn from it and they figure out some of the reasons why. Maybe they lash out at people and things like that. Some instances, they do it or they just refuse to do it. And we just have to, again, with grace, try to counsel them out. And when you're kind of turning around the finances of an organization and one of your top producers is that type of person, it's hard to make that decision. but it does, you got to stay true to your values. And so we've done that. And then ultimately it's net positive and others see that, you know, you don't just kowtale to the person with the biggest ego, but it's a balance.

20:50It's definitely a balance and it's got to be handled with tact and with authenticity, I think.

20:55Al Elliott:Now, sometimes with ego driven leaders, you just have to encourage them out of the business. And it's kind of reassuring to hear that it's not all cupcakes and rainbows. Yeah, talking of real life, a common fear I think for leaders is this. If I empower others, what if they make mistakes? What if they go off in the wrong direction? And Tim's about to give us this brilliant concept called jump balls, which is essentially how do you give people leadership opportunities that won't sink the ship if they get them wrong? So basically what Tim's saying is it's risk-managed empowerment. So you're creating these safe-to-fail experiments where people can practice leadership skills.