221. Is chasing success making you unhappy? With Carolina Lasso, former Google and AmEx high-flyer

0:00There's a Google employee who stopped drinking water during work hours, not because she forgot, but because she didn't have time to use the bathroom. There's a valedictorian with a perfect GPA who ate her lunches in elevators while biking between meetings. And there's a Silicon Valley success story who, on her 34th birthday, woke up feeling so empty she packed a bag and left everything behind. They are all the same person. Our guest today, Carolina Lasso, wore busyness like a badge of honour until her body and mind simply said enough. She's a former Google and American Express employee who discovered that climbing the corporate ladder at breakneck speed meant she was climbing the wrong ladder entirely.

0:41Carolina's story started like the American dream. Colombian immigrant arrives at 17, gets scholarships, achieves perfect grades, lands jobs at the world's most prestigious companies. But here's the thing. She was literally too good for her own good. From a very young age, I started receiving accolades and awards for my academic results. So I was valedictorian in high school, commencement speaker in college, 4.0 GPA, which in the US is like perfect score. I started to notice that I would get attention and love through my accomplishments. attention love validation self-worth through output that's unhealthy of course after a six month mental health sabbatical and a journey across italy india kenya and beyond carolina discovered something profound the opposite of burnout isn't happiness it's something much simpler and more radical carolina calls it flourishing but don't worry this isn't another instagram perfect wellness story when carolina talks about flourishing she means waking up on a Tuesday morning and simply being okay with being human, even if that means feeling sad or angry or even lost.

1:51And in a world where how are you is answered with busy, Carolina has a challenging message. Maybe that badge of honour you're wearing is actually killing you. Hello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture. Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist. My name is Al, I'm a business owner. And we are here to help you simplify the science of work. So today we're asking, what happens when busy becomes your entire identity?

2:27Let's find out after this very short break. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across three teams and four systems. And in our case is about 216 ,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it. What you should be doing is using HubSpot because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already narrows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.

3:03Nice. Check out HubSpot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

3:12So we're joined here by a pretty incredible woman. I'm not even going to attempt to talk about her history because I think there's a lot of things we can dive into here. But before we start, can you just tell us, Carolina, who you are, what you do and what you might be famous for? I'm Carolina Lasso. I am an author. I am an eternal student and a fellow human being walking this planet Earth. I majored in international business. I'm an immigrant from Colombia. And I moved to the U.S. when I was 17. And I had a pretty big dream of accomplishing a lot of goals. I was very determined. And ended up going into business because I got a scholarship.

3:59And then I followed the steps they tell us to follow in order to be happy, yet to get to a point and realize, oh, this ladder I have been climbing, this is not my ladder. This road I've been driving so fast, so quickly, with so much determination and energy, this is not my road. And so I had to, lately I've been calling it recalculate, kind of like when you're driving and your GPS is recalculating and you'll go in a different direction. And I've reinvented myself. So now, nowadays, I call myself a purpose mentor and a human flourishing teacher, facilitator, and eternal student. And that's what I do.

4:49I love connecting with people. I love walking side by beside people from all corners of the world for them to reconnect with their purpose, sense of meaning and flourishing. Carolina, I want to start off. It's the biggest question after doing so much research, it's the biggest question I've got for you. It seemed like you had everything. You had the MBA, you had degrees, you had travel experience, you were working at Google, you worked at Amex. You seem to have just given it all up one day, just said, no, I don't want that anymore. Tell me the story. What happened? Yeah, this is actually the story on how I begin my first book, The Path to Flourishing.

5:28And it starts on my 34th birthday, interestingly enough. I had gone out with friends and my feet were hurting from dancing so much. And the night before, I received so many gifts and hugs and just so much love from people. And so you would have thought that everything was fine in my life. I was married. I was living in Silicon Valley, in Sunnyvale specifically, the valley of the sun, right? So like it's sunny every single day. And the next morning I woke up feeling so much sense of emptiness and lack of clarity about my life. It was the sense of like, all these things that I have, that I've earned, that I have worked so hard for, are not really leading me to being happy.

6:20What's going on? And so it was disappointment at another level because it was just like, I did everything right. That feeling of I had checked all the boxes. Why is it that I don't feel happy? Why is it that I have so many profound questions? about the meaning of life, about what to do next, my next chapter. I had given up a little bit on life because of that disappointment of doing everything supposedly by the book and not getting that happiness back. And so that day I left my house. I left. I just packed up a bag and left and went on to think. I just needed to have space, quiet space to think.

7:04That led into taking a six month sabbatical from Google, because of mental health, my big questions evolved into frustration, worry, concern, eventually anxiety, eventually apathy, eventually depression. So I left and got divorced and traveled around the world to find myself. A little cliche, I know, the whole Eat, Pray, Love thing. My friends joke about the fact that I am the Colombian version of Eat, Pray, Love, because indeed I went to Italy due to art therapy. I went to live in an ashram in southern India in the state of Kerala. Eventually I also went to Kenya, Tanzania, Singapore, Colombia, and I just wanted to learn.

7:59I became obsessed about learning from all of these different cultures and traditions and the wisdom from so many different places around the world to understand, A, why I was not happy, and two, then, what was the recipe, the ingredients for happiness. And when I got back, I realized that it was not happiness that I was after. It was something deeper. And in my book, I call it flourishing. In Spanish, there is a word that doesn't have a translation, which is plenitud, and it involves being content, being whole, being in a state of tranquility, being well, wholesome. and then I realized that that's what I was really looking for something that would be with me the peaks and the valleys of my life not necessarily happiness which has this huge euphoric upbeat high energy connotation but something a lot more relatable stable in my life and so I found for my own benefit, for my own life, the seven principles that take us to a flourishing life.

9:15I didn't even know I would call it that, but eventually that's what became my first book. Right. So Caroline has just told us about waking up on her 34th birthday, feeling completely empty despite having everything. But here's what I wanted to understand. Was this actually about achievement or was there something deeper going on? You were doing everything in your life, right? You were like, you're going to Google, you were at Amex, you were Silicon Valley, you were living in, like you were saying, in the most amazing place. What's the difference between healthy, ambitious and healthy goals and just sort of collecting achievement?

9:50What's the difference between healthy ambition and just being addicted to it is how I'd reframe the question. I was addicted to it for sure, because from a very young age, I started receiving accolades and awards for my academic results. So I was valedictorian in high school, commencement speaker in college, 4.0 GPA, which in the US is like perfect score. And I loved it. And I realized that I started to notice that I would get attention and love through my accomplishments. Attention, love, validation, self-worth through output. And that's a really hard realization to get to, but it was the truth.

10:40It just happens, right? When human beings develop, we all develop certain things and that was mine. And so that's unhealthy, of course, to, and it took me, it took so much work, shadow work, all sorts of retreats and therapy and exploration and inquiry to get to that point and realize that I am not my goats. I am my self-worth, my identity, my worth, my value does not come from anything external. But the moment I started to tie my self-worth to my accomplishments, that's when it got to be not helpful, not productive. I was too good for my own good, is how I came to think about it. Trying to do so much and be the good student and be the good daughter and be the good neighbor and the good citizen.

11:42up until up to a point that it became negative for my own well-being because I would bend over backwards for everybody. I would sign up for all types of projects that work. I would do so much and that's the thing. I was so focused on doing, I forgot being and that trip around the world, it allowed me the space to be, not just do. And so it's a reminder that we're not human doings for human beings. And I think that's the difference. When you have goals, when you have structure, when you have clarity about what you want, that's wonderful. So long as your self-worth is not tied to it. What's the difference between having a bad week or a bad month and what you felt like?

12:28How did you know it wasn't just something, oh, it'll pass? I thought it would be something that would pass. I thought I was going through something temporary. And I do want to name that. A lot of the self-help books and content out there encourages to like, keep on going, you know, just wake up next day and stand up and with discipline and the right mindset, you'll accomplish anything. And so I believed it and I would keep on trying that. Today is going to be better. I'll wake up. I'm going to go do my mindfulness practice. I am going to go to the gym and I'm going to do gratitude. I'm going to do this and I'll try to do it all.

13:10And I would still feel so empty and dissatisfied. And I think apathy is probably the one that struck me the hardest because I was always very engaged, very involved, very positive in general in my life. And when no matter what I did wouldn't help, I realized it was time to ask for help. And the other part was that there was shame associated with mental health. And so I would go to work wearing my mask, my happy, smiling, I can do it all mask, because I thought that opening up to say I'm not okay would completely damage my reputation. This was my own story in my head of, well, you're not cut for this, right?

14:05I was working at Google with brilliant minds and sober, determined, and hardworking people. And so admitting that something was not okay was kind of admitting that I couldn't do it, that I was not cut for it, that I was not made for something like that. And so I would refuse to. And I denied it for close to a year. And of course, it felt like a pressure cooker, right? And so the more you hide it, the stronger it is going to explode one day. And so one day, I just couldn't take it any longer. My boss realized it and he noticed how bad it was. And that's when I started my time off. So I think deep inside, we know it.

14:50I was listening to a podcast by Brenna Brown and Dr. Brown, as we know, is a researcher on different types of emotions and shame. And she talked about in her book, Atlas of the Heart, that based on her research, the average person, the average person can only name three emotions, happy, angry, or sad. And if you think about or if you've ever seen or anyone listening, if you've ever seen the wheel of emotions, my goodness, there are so many things that we can feel as human beings that we even have labels for. And I'm sure there are many others that we can't even name or label or have a word for.

15:31And so it's really important to have that depth of discernment and understand what's going on with us. So if someone's listening to this and it's resonating deeply, they're going, do you know what? I am wearing busyness as a badge. Can you give them some practical steps in saying how they climb down from that point in their life? Yeah, I would say step one is recognition, noticing, noticing. And sometimes you don't even notice that's what you're doing. And so first notice, oh, gee, I've been doing that for a long time now. Number two, ask yourself, what's underneath that? Why would busyness make you important?

16:09Would elevate you? There's this extra sense of elevation of what? To what? For what? Who do you want to impress? Is it yourself? Is it your inner child? Is it your parents? Is it your boss? Who is behind this? What's going on there? And once you've uncovered it, then recognize what may be driving it. What was the trigger point for that. And using that information, then you can uncover too and explore ways to change it from that root cause, right? Because you can try to just change the language and not say busy. You can say, fine, I'm doing fine. Or, you know, I'm more spacious today or whatever.

16:51But if it's not authentic and if it doesn't tackle the root cause, then it will continue to happen or it'll be superficial or fake. But what's underneath that, right? In my case, it was that sense of, well, if I'm busy, then that means I'm successful. And if I'm successful, and if I do a lot of really good things and have productive outcomes and very creative solutions, then I'm going to be accepted. I am going to belong. I'm going to be loved. That's my, What's yours? What's on the other side? Right. And so I think it becomes real important to get to that root cause. Let's talk about belonging for a second.

17:33I knew you were going to go there. I saw your eyes. I saw your eyes. You knew it. Belonging. You traveled. A lot of people we meet who travel extensively, I sense they're just looking for somewhere to belong. But often they just, all that changes is the view out their window. though, what would you say to someone who feels like they don't really belong? Does travel help? Does changing jobs help? I could come up with a really good answer for that. But what I would want to say is teach me because I'm still struggling with it. After moving so many times, I've lost count on the number of cities where I've lived, even within one state or one region of the world.

18:18I think on average, I was moving once a year. And so it really uproots you. And I've struggled with sense of belonging and identity, being multicultural, bilingual, being just having one foot here, one foot there. So right now I'm living in Canada most of the year, but in the winter, I spend my time in Colombia. And then throughout the year, I'm also traveling to so many different places. And so it really makes me wonder where do I belong? And I'll tell you, I go back to Colombia where I grew up and I don't belong fully anymore. And it hurts me. I'm like, I want to belong here. I want this to be my home.

19:02But there are just so many cultural aspects that don't resonate with me anymore. And yet if I'm in North America, if I'm in Europe, I'm also like, no, I don't belong here either. I don't resonate. My joke is that, I mean, I'm born in, that I belong in the Caribbean, like somewhere in between North and South America. So I've come to embrace it and just know that I will never feel like I fully belong. And how can I make that okay? hey, how can I create my own culture? How can I create my own home and develop it within me so that it comes with me wherever I go? Now, sounds nice, not easy. And I don't think I've gotten to that point just yet.

19:51I'm homesick very frequently, anywhere I go. I'm busy. She's right. People do say that all the time. It is our default response. And she's connecting it to this need to belong, to be loved. but I'm thinking about our listeners who genuinely are busy not by choice but by necessity. That was exactly what I was thinking when I was talking to Carolina so I push back on this let's see what she says. What happens if you haven't got the luxury to be able to go out there and follow what brings you joy because you have to bring in money to feed a family or to care for a sick one? What are we supposed to do now?

20:26I think joy, the word joy also has that sense of euphoria and big smiles. I think the type of joy I would want to connect with and the type of joy I talk about is one that is a lot more grounded on the inner knowing, the inner yes. It's a little bit of connecting to that inner compass that tells us it's this way. The yes is here, not necessarily the big laughter and smiles that are not always possible. Let me come back to that, but I do want to address what you're mentioning, which is the toxic positivity that ignores marginalization, oppression, injustice in the world, and that But no, with just a change in mindset, I'm not just going to go and all of a sudden change my circumstances when there is something systemic that prevents me from doing it no matter what I do.

21:28So I do think there is something there that we do need to address and we do need to change. Therefore, we need more people willing to follow their inner knowing to address those changes to make the change happen. And so for everybody, it's that discernment of, I keep going back to that word, right? But that ability to connect to our inner wisdom and say, what's next for me? Where is that next step? And so I talk about follow your joy from that perspective. What gives me inner peace? Another word I use is enthusiasm from the Greek in, in theos, in God, in divinity. And I don't talk about religion, but I do sense that extra connection to source, connection to something bigger that guides you.

22:26It guides me because it gives me peace. It gives me extra sense of curiosity and motivation. And so lately, I've been talking a lot more about either enthusiasm or curiosity, follow your curiosity. So if you are a person who has to work three shifts and you do not have the time, the space, there's so much going on, you're going through complex times, how can you connect to that which gives you a little bit more inner peace, tranquility, that sense of curiosity and motivation? And I do believe that the bigger change, I talk about this a lot when I talk about purpose, by the bigger change toward purpose, toward flourishing, happens one step at a time.

23:16One breadcrumb of curiosity at a time. Picking up the breadcrumbs one at a time of curiosity and enthusiasm. And sure, if there is joy, that's wonderful. If you can uncover it, if it's present, that's beautiful. But it's more about that grounded level of inner knowing. I'm glad she addressed the systemic issues there. she's not just saying think positive when someone's working three jobs yeah but i was still a little skeptical because follow your curiosity when you're absolutely exhausted i just didn't know whether that was going to be feasible now wait until we hear what she tells us about next about just how far her busyness went we'll find out after the break did you know that the uk's number one management podcast that's us by the way and the uk's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.

24:07We actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work. And we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.

24:14Carolina Lasso:And two out of three of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not going to say wit. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you, we need to do this in threes. The HubSpot Podcast Network. The audio destination. Or business professional. Seamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff.

24:50Carolina Lasso:And do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business and brands as well. It is. It's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. but there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street personally i enjoyed can balsamic vinegar make beer taste better it can and are we all just status seeking monkeys i am go and listen to nudge wherever you get your podcast but come back yeah come back definitely come because nudge isn't as good as this so come back i'll cut that out Keep that in.

25:27So going back to the young woman who was eating her lunch in the elevator, who was not drinking so that she didn't have to go to the toilet. What story was she telling herself back then? So I was mentioning the story I tell in my book that sometimes I would have back-to-back meetings without any breaks throughout my day. This was when I was in the corporate world. that sometimes I chose not to drink so much water because I wouldn't have enough time to go to the bathroom in between meetings. Sometimes I remember in the Google campus, which was so big, I had to bike from one building to the next with the pretty yellow Google bikes.

26:06And that wouldn't give me enough time to go to the bathroom. And of course, it's an exaggeration. But yeah, like that was part of it. And the story that all of that situation stemmed from is I need to meet other people's expectations. I cannot let them down. There was that big component. I thought I was being responsible. I thought I was being responsible by attending all meetings, going to everything, doing it all. And then I realized it was not responsible with myself, my own health. And that responsibility is the ability to respond. And I was not really responding properly. I was not really having the ability to respond because clearly that was anti-humanness.

27:00And I learned, right? And I think that's the thing. And lately, I've really been embracing this idea that our life purpose, our supreme life purpose is to uncover, kind of like peel the onion and uncover deeper and deeper versions of ourselves that are more authentic, that remove all of those ego, narrative, self-identity layers and get to the core of who we truly are. And I think a lot of people ask me, do I have a purpose? Does everybody have a purpose? I can't find my purpose. I'm like, first of all, you don't find purpose. We walk the purpose path. It's a path. It's a journey. And number two, yeah, every single person has one.

27:48And at the very highest level, it's that. To reconnect with who you truly are, your true essence, your inner being, your, if you allow me to say, more divine self. For someone who's listening to this and going, you've used all these fluff words that I read everywhere. Their mindfulness, purpose, all this kind of stuff, transcendence, they're still not convinced. Is the one message you want to give to them to convince them that purpose is the way? I'm not here to convince anybody. I am here to provide tools for anyone this resonates with and to make it a little easier for people navigating transitions.

28:30solutions, maybe offering some of the help that I wish I had during that moment. And I struggled so much. And I am here to remind every single person that we all, every single person deserves to flourish, every single person. So I don't want anyone out there thinking they don't deserve a flourishing life, one with meaning, one with peace of mind, one with the support system they deserve, one that feels well, everybody deserves well, being well. Let's talk about this word flourishing. You've used it a lot. What does flourishing actually feel like? I'm not talking about the Instagram fancy, like I'm posting beautiful quotes and lovely pictures of me happening?

29:21What does Tuesday morning alarm goes off? What does flourishing actually feel like for the real people? I would say the shortest version of flourishing is I am well. Well being. Be well. It means you get a good night's sleep and you're able to wake up and you're able to appreciate the fact that you're alive and you go out and you do your very best in whatever it is you're doing and with the resources at your disposal. That's the very basic level, right? And then of course we want more, I want more people. I want to envision a world in which every single person believes they deserve flourishing.