223. Why small talk is exhausting (according to science), with Associate Professor John Michel

0:00Al Elliott:Picture this for a moment, you're at the kettle making a coffee when Dave from Accounts walks up and says, so how's your love life going? Or maybe Kendra, the new intern, suddenly blurts out, you look like you've lost weight, you've got any health issues? Sounds really awkward, right? Well, according to new research, these uncomfortable small talk moments aren't just cringeworthy, they're actually making your employees ill. Our guest today, John Michel, was studying fun workplace conversations when his research student stumbled across something surprising. In the data, a large percentage of participants mentioned uncomfortable small talk, even though nobody had even asked them about it.

0:38My colleagues and I were doing some research on co-worker socializing, and we were trying to figure out the different ways in which people socialize at work, outside of work, in between tasks, things like that. And I had an undergraduate assistant at the time, and she was looking at the data that we had collected and came across a number of people talking about instances of uncomfortable small talk that were just coming up. And it wasn't once or twice. It was like 50 to 80 instances.

1:07Al Elliott:John has done extensive research on small talk and he's discovered that awkward small talk doesn't just make people feel uncomfortable. It actually leads to emotional exhaustion, the precursor to burnout. And before you think this is just an introvert problem, it's not. Today, we're diving into the hidden science of workplace chatter, why bad small talk can literally drain your team's energy, and the surprising difference between small talk that builds connection and small talk that destroys it. This is going to change how you think about every casual conversation at work from now on. Hello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture.

1:47We are brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.

1:55Al Elliott:My name is Alan, I'm a business owner. And we are here to help you simplify the science of work. So today we are asking when does friendly workplace chat become a wellbeing killer? We think small talk is harmless, right? Just the way we build rapport with colleagues. But what if we've been getting it completely wrong? Our guest today is John Michael, who's the Associate Professor at Loyola University of Maryland. He studies something most of us take for granted those casual conversations that happen between meetings at the coffee machine or in the lift. His research reveals there's a dark side to workplace small talk that's hiding in plain sight.

2:32And if you're a leader thinking well I'll just ban small talk then hold on. John's research also shows that the right kind of casual conversation actually boosts performance and reduces turnover. The trick is knowing the difference.

2:48Al Elliott:So after this very quick break we're going to meet John properly and discover what small talk really is, why it can be exhausting, and whether you need to be an extrovert to survive it. Don't go anywhere. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across three teams and four systems. And in our case, it's about 216 ,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it. What you should be doing is using HubSpot because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from.

3:24So when sales talk to a customer, marketing already narrows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.

3:30Al Elliott:Nice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

3:39So I am John Michael. I am an associate professor and the Bush Scholar at Loyola University, Maryland in the United States. I conduct research in the areas of fun at work, co-worker socializing and social interactions, and employee retention and performance. My colleagues and I were doing some research on co-worker socializing, and we were trying to figure out the different ways in which people socialize at work, outside of work, in between tasks, things like that. And I had an the undergraduate assistant at the time who's now a PhD student studying elsewhere. And she was looking at the data that we had collected and came across a number of people talking about these instances of uncomfortable small talk that were just coming up.

4:27And it wasn't, you know, it wasn't once or twice. It was like 50 to 80 instances of people mentioning this. And they weren't being asked about uncomfortable conversations at all. They were being asked about, like, what are the types of things you talk about? Where do you talk about it? Who do you talk about it with? You know, and it really geared towards more fun conversations and playful conversations. Things that got people excited to be at work and kind of improved the experience of work. And what she really found was that, you know, a lot of people were getting engaged in these conversations that made them feel a little uneasy or uncomfortable.

5:01We think small talk is the way that we get to know people, the way we start to build that rapport with our colleagues. And it seems like such a small thing. So what's the big question behind small talk? So I think small talk has often been assumed to be this kind of very basic and, you know, easygoing conversation between people or conversations about the weather or sports or common interest. But actually, people engage in different levels of small talk. So there is small talk that is just kind of common thought. And then there's small talk to go much deeper. So oftentimes people, especially as they build relationships, will start talking about relationships that they're in, or they'll talk about challenges that they're having, or they'll talk about, you know, whether they want to stay at the organization for a long period of time or if they have plans to move on, right?

6:01So they're still not getting into real deep conversation, but they're going into more personal avenues of conversation. And this is where these uncomfortable instances of small talk come up, right? So this is where people might try to engage in a conversation about how your romantic relationships are going or how has your health been? Have you experienced any health challenges? What types of family issues are you having? Are you experiencing a lot of work-life balance issues? Who are you in conflict with in the organization? Why are you in conflict with them? You know, so those types of conversations come up in just passing in kind of short instances of small talk throughout the day.

6:49But they oftentimes can kind of encroach on people's personal selves and become uncomfortable. So is it a case then that it's this small talk that is uncomfortable typically falls outside of the realm of work? Although I know you give a few examples of actually within work. What's the driver there? Is it that it's inappropriate conversation? Is it they don't have this base level relationship with this person? Is it perceived as somebody being nosy? Because again, it feels like this is just how we start to build authentic relationships, isn't it? That's right. And so there's kind of different categories.

7:23So in some instances, there's things where people just don't feel comfortable. So if you and I are talking about our favorite sports team and a third person doesn't know anything about sports or is not interested in sports, they may feel uncomfortable just because they're not part of the conversation. So they feel kind of like an outcast or not really ostracized, but not part of the in-group, right? So there's those forms of uncomfortable conversation. There's also things that bleed into your personal interest or your personal life that people just aren't comfortable talking about with their coworkers.

7:53And so, and those are some of the examples I gave before. So, you know, asking about romantic relationships, asking about personal issues that people just don't feel comfortable talking about. Then there's other instances of small talk where people don't feel comfortable talking about them at work, but they're okay if they're in a social setting. So say coworkers go out together afterwards for happy hour. They're fine talking about it outside of the confines of work. Almost like I don't feel comfortable talking about it in this professional space because I'm supposed to be a professional and supposed to be task focused.

8:27But I'm okay once we leave kind of the confines of the professional world. So there's these different groupings that we're finding of small talk. It's not kind of that all conversations that are personal are always uncomfortable, but, you know, some topics are kind of always out of base. Some topics are okay as long as you're not in the compounds of the workplace. And some conversations are always okay. So it really just kind of depends. It's not, there's no one size fits all. everybody doesn't experience the uncomfortability the same and for the same reasons. But, you know, if you're talking about the weather or, you know, the company picnic that just happened, people are probably, everybody's probably okay with that.

9:16But when you start getting into things that people don't care about or they don't feel comfortable bringing into work or it exposes some sort of limitation or some sort of area that they're not confident or capable in, that might make them feel uncomfortable. We're led to believe that people who are introverted typically in these social situations would find it draining in terms of energy. Is there any, as I say, that introverts might want to engage in small talk less or they find it more uncomfortable? Or is it more about, as you said, the context? No, so there's not a lot out there in the organizational literature.

9:51We are starting to look at that now. So we're looking at a number of boundary conditions or moderators. Currently, we're actually conducting the research right now. Things like introversion, extroversion, neuroticism. So people who just get stressed easily, they may not want to talk about personal issues because it may either expose a weakness of theirs or it may just make them feel like they're under time pressure. We're also looking at other personality traits like social anxiety. Some people are just get anxious in social situations. So it's not just that they're an introvert, but they're actually like anxious talking to other people, especially about something that is not task related, something that's not work related.

10:33And then another personality trait we're looking at is the need to belong. So some people have a great need to belong and they may be much more willing to engage in small talk, even if it becomes personal because they've got this great need to connect. Right. So we're starting to look at that now, but that has really been under examined in the literature thus far. And in terms of that, that what I found really interesting about the paper that you shared with me was that how you'd found a link between this awkward small talk and emotional exhaustion. so can you maybe start by helping our listeners understand what emotional exhaustion is in this context yeah so emotional exhaustion is kind of the precursor to burnout so burnout is when you become so taxed so stressed and your body because you haven't coped emotionally or physically your body is kind of giving out so we've all experienced burnout if we've studied for too long if we've worked for too long and we start to feel sick or we start to get a headache or we start to get really exhausted, right?

11:35That's kind of the burnout. Emotional exhaustion is when we start to feel emotionally run down. Sometimes when people are highly emotionally exhausted, they may burst into tears for no explanation, or they may lash out with anger for no explanation because they're just so emotionally tapped. So that's kind of like the first sign of burnout. So it's an important indicator of well-being. If people are experiencing a lot of emotional exhaustion, their well-being is lower. So they're not experiencing a lot of potential life satisfaction, flourishing, thriving in the workplace. And that's an important indicator because that's going to explain how much people are able to bring to the job.

12:15Are they able to bring their full selves to work? And are they able to be able to focus their full energy in the task that they're supposed to focus on? So what we found using social exclusion theory is that engaging in these forms of uncomfortable small talk makes people feel lonely or, you know, ostracized or, you know, or isolated. So they start to feel like, well, I'm not part of the in-group. I feel like I'm kind of on an island here, if you will. And that starts to, so that reduces the number of resources that they're getting or the amount of resources they're getting from their social support network, right?

12:58And then when they start to feel stressed, they can't rely on those other people to help bring that stress down, right? So that one way that people often cope is through their social support. I'm stressed, I'm going to take a break, and I'm going to go talk to Leanne about something fun. Or we'll go for a walk and get some exercise together and just have a conversation about life, right? So that's something I might do. If I start to feel like I'm excluded, or I start to feel like I'm lonely or ostracized at all, right, then I don't have those people to go to. I don't have that network to draw on in order to protect me against the stressors that I'm experiencing, which makes me more likely to experience emotional exhaustion.

13:38So that was that finding that we identified in that first study was just that people do experience more emotional exhaustion when they experience more uncomfortable forms of small talk at work. I can imagine there's business leaders and owners listening going, well, how do I approach this then? Because if I've got the awkward small talk, that's going to mean that people are emotionally exhausted and then feel isolated. How do I know what small talk is good for building relationships and which isn't? Do I just ban small talk? Do we just talk about work? Where does it leave them? Yeah, I think it's important to create an environment where people feel included, right?

14:19So an environment of inclusiveness or belonging, where people feel like they're part of something that they all identify with. So they have this kind of we spirit, and they feel like they're kind of all together. and then you know just I think having the reminder that you know keep the small talk professional right so make sure that it's okay to go you know to talk about things that are not task related but don't talk about things that may make people you know may kind of broach into people's personal lives or may be uncomfortable to talk about because it could expose a weakness or it could bring up something that you know that that is hurtful to the person so for example if somebody's experiencing financial debt, or if somebody is going through a divorce, if you bring up topics like that, it's going to not only push the person away, but it's also going to start to make them feel like they're not part of the group, that people, if they're willing to talk about that with me, they clearly don't care about how I feel about the situation, right?

15:21So if I were a leader and I was looking at this, it would be like, first, we need to create an environment of belongingness where we all feel like we're a team or we're a we're a set of people who who have a similar identity to the workplace and then keep it fun but professional right so make it light-hearted but not overly personal or not overly sensitive right so so kind of keep it can you know talk about the weather talk about sports talk about things that are going on the company to talk about vacation plans and in similar, you know, you know, find common interest, talk about games that people like to play.

16:00There's many things that you could engage people in conversation about that aren't going to get into personal issues such as health. You know, like if you say like, oh, you know, this person has lost a lot of weight or gained a lot of weight and you start asking about health questions, that's going to make them feel uncomfortable, one, because they're getting into a personal thing that they don't want to talk about. But it's also going to expose a weakness, like could this person be a liability to the company? So if you engage people in conversation like that, it's going to push them away because they're going to go into a protective mode where they feel like they need to, you know, either not answer or give a, you know, give kind of a very careful answer in order to protect their own image at the company.

16:40So it's really about making sure that conversations are fun, but not overly encroaching on people's personal space. We know from the organizational psychology literature that it's really important that you hire for fit and you hire people who fit the values and personality of the company and who really will not only get along with what the company is trying to accomplish, but with the people within the company. You know, the people make the place and that's very true. And then once you have created that, it's important that you create this sense of belongingness. Now, belongingness kind of goes a step further than psychological safety.

17:15Psychological safety, as you know, is all about being able to speak freely, being able to make mistakes without the threat of punishment or being made fun of. Belonging is that, is a sense of psychological safety, but also knowing that people have your back and that people are looking out for your best interest and that we're all in it together. And that people see me as an important, valued contributor to the organization. So that's really what organizations want to focus on. So a lot of, you know, my research and a lot of research in this area focuses on how do you build strong interpersonal connections at work, right?

17:54So how do you build not necessarily friendships, but trusting, caring, nurturing relationships where people can be honest with each other, where people can be fair to one another, where people are showing caring concern to one another in a way to try to build stronger social exchange relationships with their colleagues? That's really what we're looking to do in organizations if you want to create a sense of belonging. right and that will fulfill their need for relationship and their need for belongingness which are two of the central human needs that that people look for you mentioned that it was one of your was it your phd student who first started to look at the data and notice this this pattern when you started to dive into it and research it more was there a result that really surprised you well i think the first surprise was just so my student was emily pink she was an undergrad student at the time, now working on her PhD in IO psychology.

18:51But she stumbled on it. And I just was shocked because we were asking, like, what do you talk about your co-worker? What do you talk about with your co-workers for fun? You know, what do you do to, you know, make the work environment more fun and engaging? And, you know, what are some things that, you know, come up in conversation? That's when we kind of stumbled on this. I was mostly surprised just how often it happens. Not so much by what people were thrown off by. It made sense to me, right? It makes sense that people don't want to talk about overly personal issues or non-task-related issues, especially if the organization's highly competitive or if the organization's highly structured, right?

19:32You don't want to kind of get off task because you'd be seen as, you know, slacking off or not doing your job. so it's not that wasn't so surprising to me uh but just the fact that it was coming up like people were feeling free to just bring up whatever they felt in conversations with others at work now if you look at another thing that we're starting to look at is like if you look at friendship groups once you and i are close friends what i can ask you or what you're willing to share with me is much broader right you you will once we're friends even if we're we're co-worker friends right so not just co-workers but actual friends and we're talking especially outside of work you may talk to me about your relationships you may talk to me about you know your you know your financial issues or the fact that you're looking for a new job at another company right but you're until we're friends you're not going to have that same level of bond with me or trust with me where you feel that you can bring those up in a way that it's not going to potentially hurt your professional image, right?

20:35So people are, most people are savvy enough to think that I need to protect my professional image because I need this job at least now until I choose not to have this job, right? And they could feel that if I harm my professional image, I may be a threat of losing my job. And that's really what's going on. When we were reading that, because the data was all qualitative that we started with. And, you know, people just talked about, you know, like we were talking about the weather, you know, and sports or whatever. Some people said, yeah, I just didn't feel, I don't feel interested in sports. I wasn't into that conversation, but I would have been happy to talk about movies.

21:12Some people talked like that. Other people said, I was surprised that this person started asking me questions about my love life or, you know, my kids, like what, what are my kids' names? How old are they? Like there's like, sometimes people don't mind saying like my kid won a big tournament this weekend in soccer, but they don't want to get into really specific information about their kids. And so things like that came up. So it was kind of a vast array of issues that came up through the data. But it was interesting that until people really build that trust, they don't really want to get into many personal issues.

21:45They want to keep it much more surface level. And I think especially that's important to build within the culture, right? Because it's really, when I come into the company, I'm going to be guarded and I'm going to be careful of what I say. So I'm really looking to, I'm building my socialization by looking at the people around me. What kinds of things are they talking about? Are they joking around a lot? Are they goofing off a lot? Because if they're goofing off a lot and they're, the boss is rewarding them for that, that may signal to me that that's what I should be doing. You know, if they're joking around and poking fun at each other and the boss is part of it, that tells me something, right?

22:24But if people are more guarded or more careful, that also signals to me, how should I behave in the organization, right? So organizational culture is all about, if I don't have an idea of what I'm supposed to do, the culture will kind of signal to me how I should be behaving, right? And so it's really important, I think, mostly that the people already in the organization are careful or are behaving in a way that is in line with what the organization wants. Maybe the organization wants deeper conversations, more personal relationships, you know? And if that's the case and the organization operates like that, then that's the kind of people they'd want to hire.

23:03They'd probably want to be upfront about that. And that's the kind of culture they'd want to build. But if they really want to focus on being more professional, they may want to create a culture where it's obvious that when I'm at work, I'm supposed to be working. A little bit of fun's okay, but work is work. And when I'm outside of work, I can let my hair down a bit. So it's really important that the stage is set for the new employees so that they know how to act. I wouldn't put too much onus on the new employees to try to determine themselves how I should act in this. It's really the organization's responsibility to signal that to the employees so they know how to engage with their co-workers and with the organization.

23:42Al Elliott:So now you know more about small talk than 99 % of people in the world. Thanks, John. After this really short break, we're going to get a little bit more practical and ask how we can build a culture that encourages small talk and just the right amount of fun. We're also going to find out what happens when employers try to force fun in the workplace. Hint, not good things. See you in a second. Did you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's us by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network? We actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.

24:16And we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.

24:19Al Elliott:And two out of three of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not going to say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you, we need to do this in threes. The HubSpot Podcast Network. The audio destination. Or business professional. Seamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff.