225. The ‘Ta-Da’! Philosophy: Why Fun Could Save Your Workplace, with Joel Zeff

0:00Al Elliott:I want you to meet Joel Zeff. He's a keynote speaker, an improv expert, and quite possibly the most enthusiastic person you'll ever hear in a podcast. My name is Joel Zeff. I am a keynote speaker. I use improv and humor to talk about choices. Joel's also the guy who, when he got fired from his newspaper job, grabbed his harmonica and did something surprising on the loading dock. I found myself on the back loading dock with the media, radio stations, TV stations, other newspapers, and I had my harmonica. And I did, this is a true story, and I went, I lost my job. I got no money. They told me to clean out my desk.

0:41I just moved here six months ago. I got the newspaper blues.

0:47Al Elliott:That moment taught Joel something quite profound about choosing your attitude during pretty bad situations. So today we're asking what if the secret to better performance in happier teams isn't more serious leadership training but learning how to unleash genuine fun at work? Joel's got a ta-da philosophy that might just change how you think about Monday mornings. Plus he'll tell us about dumb ass managers who eat your fun and how not to become one of them. This is going to be ridiculously enjoyable. Hello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.

1:30My name is Leanne, I'm a Charged Occupational Psychologist.

1:33Al Elliott:My name is Al and I'm a business owner. And we are here to help you simplify the science of work. Now, Joel Zeff has spoken to two and a half thousand different groups from the likes of McDonald's, KPMG, American Express, Samsung, basically you name a brand and he's worked with them. And he believes that celebrating small moments with this hearty ta-da might be the key to workplace happiness. What makes his approach so refreshing is that he's not talking about forced fun or those like cheesy ping pong tables. He's talking about authentic energy and genuine appreciation. After this quick break, we'll hear Joel's incredible harmonica story and discover what fun really means at work.

2:11This is going to be brilliant.

2:14Al Elliott:The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across three teams and four systems. And in our case, it's about 216 ,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it. What you should be doing is using HubSpot because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already narrows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more. Nice. Check out HubSpot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

2:56My name is Joel Zeff. I am a keynote speaker. I use improv and humor to talk about choices, how we choose to lead with passion, how we choose to celebrate our successes, how we find success during change and disruption, great teamwork, creating opportunity and positive support. I'm all about energy, fun, and laughter. I wrote a book, Make the Right Choice, Lead with Passion, Elevate Your Team, Unleash the Fun at Work, probably the greatest business book ever. That's probably what I'm famous for, for probably writing the greatest business book ever published. And I'm also famous, probably the greatest podcast guest ever.

3:36Probably, probably the greatest podcast guest. I think fun should be inherent. It should be part of everything that we do. It should be our guiding light. We should love what we do. We should have fun at work, but fun means different things. Fun isn't about pastries and free coffee and we're going to play games on a Friday afternoon. That's fun. I love that. But fun is also mentoring someone, making a great sale, overcoming a challenge, finding that success. Fun is something different for you and it's something different for me. But you have to find that guiding light, what that fun is, and work toward it.

4:21And I hope you're in a situation where your manager, your leader is creating a foundation for that fund to exist. They're creating opportunity for you. They're being positive and supportive. They're giving you appreciation. That's the magic chemistry, I think, that creates fund. Opportunity and positive support.

4:40Al Elliott:I think the biggest pushback people are going to have from listening to this is I work in compliance for a bank. I put numbers from one spreadsheet into another all day long. How am I supposed to make this fun? You remember math class? And I hated math. I hated algebra. I hated geometry. But there's that kid right next to you who, when they solve an algebra problem, they've conquered the world. Do you remember that? Do you remember that? And they would be so excited and they would just feel this. They'd have this energy in their body language. And, you know, nobody would really care or talk to them.

5:19But to them, they're pretty excited. that's not my fun, but that's their fun. So fun is many, many different things. And I don't care what job you have, what industry, and I've done, I've spoken to 2 ,500 different groups and organizations. Uh, in the U S I've spoken to the IRS, which is the tax man. I've spoken to government agencies. Uh, I've spoken to it and accounting and you name the industry that you think doesn't have fun. And I promise they do. If you just create that opportunity, we have to have that energy. It fuels us no matter what our job is, whether it's a, you know, um, whether it's a job that's with numbers or it's a technical job, you just have to find what that fun is.

6:11Is it, is it mentoring somebody? Is it creating something new? Is it creating a new idea? Is it creating a sense of team with your coworkers. What is that fun? And that should be a guiding light. There is time for fun. There's a lot of myths around fun that we're like one of the myths that you just mentioned that we're very serious here. We're very serious company doing very serious work. We can't possibly have fun. That's a dark, depressing thought that you're working years in what you think is an industry or job that you can't have fun, you should have fun. What is that guiding light for you?

6:57What is it? And if you really are honest with yourself and you answer that, you ask a question, what opportunity do I need to be fulfilled and rewarded? Because fun is a big part of that. What is that opportunity? Do I want to go to a conference? Do I want more training? Do I want a different responsibility, a different role? What is that opportunity? That's going to be different for me than it is for you. And if you're honest with yourself, and then you tell your manager, your director, and you say, hey, this is what I need to be happy and fulfilled. What do they get back in return if they give you that opportunity?

7:30They get a team member that's passionate, energized, going to help them reach their goals. It's a win. And if they don't give you that opportunity, that's a clue. You're in the wrong place. Nothing wrong with that. But I promise somebody down the road is wanting a passionate, energized team member just like you and wants to give you opportunity and wants to give you positive support because they know what they get back in return. And that's going to fulfill and reward you. That's how I started my career. And most of my stories at the beginning of my career dealt with murder, death, destruction, something bad happening to somebody.

8:12So that was my whole existence. covering these stories. So if I didn't have fun, if I didn't find something fulfilling and rewarding, I would just be, you know, that would just be a very depressing time. And so it's, sometimes you have a little bit of gallows humor and sometimes it's just having that connection with your coworkers, but it's finding that fun. And I'll give you a perfect example of finding fun in kind of a dark time. So I wrote this story. There was a couple, somebody, one person went missing. I wrote a big story about this missing person. It was very sad. It's a huge headline about this person that was missing.

9:09It was very sad. And I talked to, uh, I believe the husband and, um, well, weeks later it came out that the husband actually committed the crime. Yeah. And I was, it was kind of weird. So I came back to the newsroom and they had, My coworkers had posted the headlines of the original story all over my computer because, you know, in a journalism way, you know, they're kind of making that comment of, look what you fell for. Well, we all fell for it until the police figured it out. And so, you know, it lightened the situation. It made a connection at work. and it allowed me to focus on the task at hand with a, with the kind of a, a new, a new beginning, a new breath.

10:12And, you know, it's finding that those moments where we can connect and, you know, they, it's your coworker saying, we, we understand the situation you're in, we're connecting with you we're thinking about you um you know and we believe in you and it's you know it's those little things that make that possible and it's really i think you know uh if we if we just reach out and help people and think about the people around us we can create that fun and energy with everybody around us a few months later after that happened the paper closed and I lost my job. So that's a terrible moment when you lose your job.

10:59So I didn't bring my magic harmonica. I'm traveling right now. And so they called me up and said, the paper closed, you lost your job, which that's the worst, right? Come clean out your desk. And so as I'm leaving my one bedroom apartment with no furniture, I think I had a couch and a bed. I grabbed this harmonica. And I never walked out the door grabbing a harmonica, but for this instance, I did. I don't play the harmonica. I don't have any musical ability. I'm tone deaf. But for some reason, I said, I lost my job. I should definitely grab my harmonica on the way out the door when I come clean out my desk.

11:41So I go down to the paper. People are crying. They're upset. They're angry. And they're confused. All the emotions that happen when you lose your job. And we've all lost our job, right? we've all had that situation and it's not fun, but you have to choose your attitude. That's what I learned that you have to choose your attitude. Yes, this something terrible just happened to you. I lost my job. I can't control that, but I control my attitude and how I react to that change. That's what improv teaches us and something I really grabbed a hold of. And so I found myself on the back loading dock with the media radio stations, TV stations, other newspapers.

12:27And I had my harmonica and I did, this is a true story. And I went, I lost my job. I got no money. They told me to clean out my desk. I just moved here six months ago. I got the newspaper blues. And you could hear, it was like the movies, you could hear the cameras clicking.

12:53because that's a new emotion for losing your job. You don't see that often. And so it was something different and unique. And that taught me that moment. I wrote about it in my book. It's the second chapter, one of my favorite chapters of Make the Right Choice available at Amazon or wherever you purchase books, Amazon UK, wherever your listeners, readers, you control how you react to it. and I learned that by playing that magic harmonica, I set my attitude and tone and built my confidence, and I discovered really to be who I was meant to be, who I am. I was my true self, creating that energy, being fun, making that moment, and that created a moment for a lot of people, and that's my favorite chapter in the book about, how I control, how I reacted to that terrible situation of losing your job.

13:54Al Elliott:Let's stick with this idea of control. I think that a lot of managers will be worried that if they allow people to have work, have fun at work, they're A, losing control, B, there'll be people being distracted from what they're actually supposed to be doing, and C, perhaps they're being left out of the fun. I don't know. What would you say to a manager who's just like, I'm not up for this. This sounds like a distraction to me. Don't you want your team members to be passionate about what they do, to be energized? That's what I want. I don't care whether they're accountants or IT or lawyers or HR professionals or marketing.

14:28I want them to love what they do. So my job as a leader is to figure out what my team members need to be happy. First, I think positive support and appreciation. and when you say, how hard is that for your manager? If you can't give positive support and appreciation, you shouldn't even be a manager. And think about all the people you had contact with on the way home. When you go home from work, think about all those people you had contact with. Here's the challenge. And you forgot because you're busy, you're this go-go leader. So you're thinking about it on the way home. And tomorrow, give that appreciation.

15:09Say, thank you. You're doing a great job. Appreciate the hard work. Appreciate what you did there on that project. That fuels us. That energizes us. We want that. You know how it feels when someone says that to you. It's a gift. And it's the best gift you can give anybody. It barely takes any time. It doesn't take any money. You don't have to put a big PowerPoint presentation together. You don't have to buy free pastries. I think your fictional leader that's worried about creating fun can handle creating positive support. I hope. That's one. That's going to create fun. Somebody tells me that I'm doing a great job and they appreciate me.

15:52I'm going to have fun. That's pretty good. That's a good feeling.

15:55Al Elliott:Certainly I might be a bit worried about is if I'm right. Okay. We're having fun at work. We're having a great time at work. Everyone's, everyone's in the right role. Everyone's happy. We're having a great time at work, but then someone goes too far and then they say something they thought was funny but isn't and actually is bad how do you curve that without taking all the fun out of the room right um that's a good question and you know fun should be inclusive shouldn't exclude people should not offend people should not be uh fun should not be at the expense of others. So those should be our, our, our guardrails really.

16:39And, um, when you understand that, and, and I know sometimes people sometimes will say something or do something and then they have to watch an HR video. Sometimes people don't know, they don't know, right? Sometimes people say something and like, I, they don't realize that, that, offends or is, um, is at the expense of someone or exclude somebody. And so you have to, you have to educate, you know, if it's said with malice, then that's another issue, right? If it's said without malice, then it's about educating and making sure you understand. But, you know, I think people are genuinely good. That's just my philosophy on life is that people are genuinely good and overall good.

17:35And, you know, you hopefully made the right hires. And if somebody accidentally says something, it's just about educating that person. But I don't really think that should be our fear when we talk about this fun. It's not about we're just all, you know, jumping around and juggling balls and, you know, playing ping pong and like, maybe we'll work for 10 minutes. And that's what I think people, when, when they talk about fun and work, that's, I think that's their first, their mindset is we're playing ping pong and there's free massages, you know, and you know, there's an espresso machine, you know, and that's not, all those things are fun.

18:24Nothing wrong with any of that But what I'm focused on Is Being fulfilled Making fun Is about being fulfilled at work Creating opportunity for each other Being positive and supportive Being appreciative These are the tenets of improv One of the tenets is asking the question How do I help the people around me be successful? because people ask, how does improv work? You're on stage with other performers. There's no script. There's no rehearsal. Everything's happening right there for the first time. So how does it work? Well, it's not about me trying to be the funniest or me trying to be the star.

19:07What I'm trying to do is help everybody else be successful, set them up, and in turn, they're gonna help me and set me up. And that's a really important concept that we can take to any work situation. The challenge is asking the question, how do I help the people around me be successful? Answering that, because you know what people need to be successful. Your customers, your partners, your vendors, your teammates, you know what they need. The hard part is to act on it. And when you do act on it, we create something really special. Fun is one thing we're creating when we're helping people be successful.

19:49that brings me a lot of joy. When I refer somebody, when I recommend somebody, when I make a connection, that brings me great joy. Am I juggling? Am I playing ping pong? Am I drinking free espresso? No. But what I've done is I made a connection. That brings me fun. That brings me joy. And so, you know, that's what I want people to think about. Are we creating opportunity? Are we being positive and supportive with each other? Are we helping each other be successful? You don't have to take my word for it. Every time there's great industries, great places to work, great companies, they all say the same thing.

20:30They may use different words or different phrases, but they're saying the same thing. They're appreciated. They feel like they have a freedom. They have opportunity. You know, they're using these words and that is what we're doing is we're creating this ecosystem of fun. That's what fun means to me.

20:53Al Elliott:You've mentioned the word improv. So first of all, if someone's not heard of improv, tell us briefly what it is. And then I really want to find out how that seems to form the basis of a lot of stuff you do. So improv, for those not initiated, there's no script, there's no rehearsal, there's no plan. Everything's happening right there on stage for the first time. When I moved to Dallas, which is where I live, to work for the newspaper, the first weekend, some friends took me to an improv show. And it was like, it was a movie experience where the music goes, and the light shines because it was, I was drawn to it.

21:40It was love at first sight. It was just this amazing connection that I, that I, I was an audience volunteer. I jumped on stage with the performers, uh, when I had an opportunity, not just randomly, like I'm just jumping on stage. They asked for an audience volunteer and I, I love, I fell in love. I mean, deep, deep love. And I didn't know how or why or that I was going to do this. So, and then they said the magical world words, we teach improv workshops and I could not get my money out fast enough. And that was my respite. That was my oasis at this very tough job, which I mentioned, you know, covering dark, you know, murders and crime and terrible things.

22:29And that this was my respite. This was my oasis each week to go to this class. and I loved it. And when I lost my job, I started doing standup comedy and then I auditioned to join the, the troupe. And I just, um, got in with some just incredible performers that are just some, uh, some, some of the funniest people I've ever met in my life. And, and we just had a ball for years until, until the, until the club closed. And, and so I, one of my clients, I was at the time working at a PR agency and one of my clients said, I know you do improv on the weekends. We're having this executive retreat. Can you come play some improv games with us before dinner?

23:13And so all men, VP level, it's an IT company. They create notebook computers. So if you're thinking about a group that's ready to have fun and play, this is not the group you would think of, Al. And so I just created the opportunity for play. And so we played some improv games and they laughed and they had fun because everybody truly wants to play. Sometimes we're just not given the opportunity. And I created that opportunity and I gave them that positive support, which are two things leaders have to give to create that fun opportunity and positive support. And we learned and we started talking about some of the choices that improv taught me.

23:59And that was the beginning. And it started evolving. And people would ask me to speak. And I would play improv games and just have fun and just share my love of improv. And then I started talking about what improv meant to me. What improv taught me about teamwork and leadership and change and innovation and communication. It's because it's a fantastic art form. And it just continually evolved until 2 ,500 events later. I'm on the greatest podcast in the world, Al. Truth flies in work. I said probably, so that you can't sue me.

24:36Al Elliott:Joel's got a very specific warning about the kind of managers who will absolutely destroy any chance of creating genuine fun at work. He calls them dumb ass managers, and believe me, you'll recognize them immediately. We'll be back after this very short break. Did you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's us by the way and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network we actually have a lot in common we both use behavioural science to help people do better at work and we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode and two out of three of us are devilishly good looking and you're not going to say wit Fel, host of Nudge UK's number one marketing podcast it's brought to you we need to do this in threes the HubSpot Podcast Network the audio destination or business professional seamless seamless tell us about your latest episode phil uh we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how new york indie bands are paying agencies to create fake tiktok videos about how much they like their work and we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics business and brands as well it is it's such it's such a good show.

25:52Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?