228. How to Plan Q4 Like a Psychologist (and Actually Stick to It)

0:00Happy September.

0:04Hello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture. Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. You say this along with me at this point, don't you? My name is Leanne. I'm a business... No, I'm not. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist. You got it wrong. My name is Al and I'm a chartered business owner. We're here to help you simplify the science of work. yes happy september guys happy september we made it through summer well no summer's not over no no it's not but it is that the changes is a coming isn't it the kids are back at school september is the end of if you want to be corporate q3 so we are looking towards the yeah the rest of the year and thinking how do we make this all come together and make 2025 a good one so this week we thought we'd do something a little bit different and i guess think about this episode as your own mini self-coaching session um so yeah there's this thing called the fresh start effect right you've heard about it usually around october time when the pumpkin spice lattes start hitting our starbucks shelves and it's that temporal landmark that just acts as a natural stopping point for us to pause reflect and make some changes moving forward um so yeah that's what we thought we'd do over the next 20 minutes i'm going to guide you through four evidence-based exercises that are going to help you reflect on the summer, set some direction for the autumn and create a focus plan for Q4.

1:33I'm sorry, is there any other way to do it? I don't know, the end of the year. I think we're going to have to be corporate for a second. Q4, yes. And I'm going to be doing this right alongside you so you can hear what it sounds like in practice. Now, just so you know, I've read Leanne's outline, but we've not done any of this before so you're going to hear me probably stumbling and asking questions hopefully the same questions that you'll be asking yeah and if you want to do this as we go along i'm going to leave um all of these exercises in the show notes so go there have a look through um and you can work work your way through with us so we're going to kick things off right after this short break with something called stop which is from someone a psychologist name that i can't even say so we'll see you in a second.

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3:00Welcome back. Our first little coaching exercise, Al. And I'm not sure people do this enough, right? You sit down to plan, make some big decisions, explore some stuffs but do you before you do that do you take a time to kind of just pause and stop and clear your mind so you're ready for it or just jump straight in from one meeting to the next normally being honest normally if i've got an idea i'll jump on chat gpt and i'll chat it out while i'm out with the dog um and uh and that often helps but it's not really a stop it's more of a jupiter well we're gonna start with a stop um it's a mindfulness technique and it comes from If you're interested, because actually a lot of the people that I coach are really interested in understanding the science behind it.

3:42So I thought I'd explain some of it as well. So STOP comes from John Kabat-Zinn's Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction Program. And it's been studied pretty extensively since the late 70s. It is also used in dialectical behaviour therapy. And research has shown that even brief mindful pauses like this can improve our focus and our decision making because it's breaking our autopilot patterns. patterns. So stop is like an acronym, is it? It is. It's exactly that. So the S is stop what you are doing. T is take a breath. O is observe what's happening and proceed with intention is the P. So whether you're walking, driving or sitting down right now, you can do this.

4:22Let's do it together. Obviously, if you're driving, don't close your eyes. Yes, don't do that. Don't do that. Okay. So first we're going to stop. So Al, I want you to stop wherever it is you're doing. pause for a moment now take a deep breath i want you to inhale slowly through your nose and then exhale slowly through your mouth okay let's do that again through the nose and exhale through the mouth okay now we observe so i want you to ask yourself what's going on in your mind right now um a little bit less than a few minutes ago yeah yeah um i have to admit that i was i was a little concerned when you gave me so much time to to inhale and i could only inhale two seconds but so what emotions are you feeling i don't know i'm necessarily feeling an emotion i just feel a little calmer a tiny bit calmer and in general in terms of kind of this point of the year what immersions are keeping you I think there's a little bit of trepidation about the final part of the year because it does go really quickly um and it's if you're not careful you go oh that's Christmas and you go what have I actually done I kind of wasted the last couple of months so I'm worried about wasting uh September October and November not about wasting December because that's meant to be wasted but uh so yeah that's kind of where I'm thinking at the moment and what's happening in your body at the minute?

5:47Any tension, excess energy, restlessness? Yeah. Yeah, I do feel a little bit of tension. I'm always a little bit restless, I think, when it comes to this time of year, because I want to go ahead and do it. I want to go and do the things and action the things. But I tend to just, like I said before, I tend to just start them and then go, oh, well, I'm halfway through this. Neither lose interest or go, well, I've gone down the wrong path. Okay. So this is probably the most important rule around mindfulness activities notice it don't judge yourself for it you don't need to go to that step just notice that you're feeling a bit restless that you're feeling a bit energetic a bit a bit nervous we don't have to attach any judgment to that fair okay um and now let's proceed with intention so given what you've just noticed what do you most need to do right now what would be the most helpful next step I think honestly I've got there's lots of things I want to get done by the end of the year I think honestly it would be good to identify like the number one thing that that if I got that done it would make the most the most impact and as the Americans say move the needle and how do you want to continue with this session what's the kind of the main thought feeling you're going to take take through with you into it um oh can you explain that give me an example so i guess is it something that you want to be curious you just want to explore ideas is it you want to be focused you want to nail down this number one thing is it that actually you just want to talk about everything that's been going on and and reflect no i want i at the end of this i would love to say right the one thing we're going to do is x and the steps are broadly one two three super so we've stopped we've taken a breath we've observed that feeling a little bit apprehensive a little bit nervous a little bit overwhelmed potentially by the next few months um so we're going to proceed with the intention of focus okay and trying to get all those thoughts if i'd said something else there then would that change the exercises you'd planned or would you still do them with a different idea it wouldn't change see exercises but it would change how i check your thought process and behaviors and as we're going through it so if you said curiosity rather than focus if you were then saying things like right that's what we need to do that's what we need to do i'd be like no no that's not the purpose of this session at this point we're just being curious because to try and be too too many things all at once in such a short period of time is that can be unproductive or it will leave you feeling that you've not explored all the ideas of curiosity was a thing.

8:27Similarly, if I let you run with curiosity and we get to the end and we've still not got that one thing, that's going to feel somewhat unproductive as well. Fair enough. Okay. So that's a stop exercise, which you don't need to do with somebody else. In fact, you rarely do. You just do it on your own. So stop, take a breath, observe how you're feeling, what you're thinking, what's happening with your body and how you want to proceed with intention in a way that's going to be helpful. Yeah, I can see that really helping, for example, if you're about to go into a meeting, or if you know something bad happens like a customer cancels or something like that then maybe just doing that rather than going oh my god you just go wait wait just stop think about it so we said stop take a breath observe and decide how to proceed that's stop exactly exactly and it's perfect in situations like that when you can feel yourself starting to emotionally react very quickly um great one for managers as well if they get blindsided by an email for a member of staff or a resignation that's taken us by surprise it's a good a good one for that as well probably a good one for husbands as well yes or indeed wives or indeed wives lovely so that's our first exercise which is based in mindfulness now our second exercise is about reflection so this exercise was developed by the og of positive psychology martin seligman you've heard of martin yeah so him and his team at the university of Pennsylvania completely changed the landscape of psychology in kind of the 90s and early noughties so what it's basically saying is that people who are reflective in a way that practices gratitude after just one week of doing this participants were happier and less depressed and this showed that this level of happiness stayed for one month three months six months later it's one of those positive psychology exercises that is so well known.

10:17People talk about gratitude journaling and saying three things that you're grateful for. And it can sound a bit fluffy, but actually some real, real science behind it. Yeah. When I was bankrupt, I was really into the likes of Chicken Soup for the Soul and Tony Robbins and all that kind of stuff. And yeah, it was, it was kind of difficult to see what you would be grateful for. So I did do this and I did feel really stupid and sort of like West Coast American and California about doing it. But I did write down every morning what I was what I was grateful for and every night what I was grateful for that day and it really massively helped because when you're sitting there and you're bankrupt you've got no money and you can't even have a bank account um this that you need that sort of thing to remind you that it's not all a disaster it's also a really good way of evaluating all aspects of your life objectively we tend to focus on the bad thing right the thing that's not working out because evolutionary speaking that's where our attention is is drawn to yeah exactly but actually that tends to be around work as well doesn't it the things that are going wrong so the gratitude um practice also just helps us identify other areas of our life where things are really great so it might be that work's a bit tough at the minute but you're completely in love with your person and how wonderful is that or your kids are thriving or you know your dog just won a competition or something and i don't know yes i'm grateful for having dogs that don't win competitions and grateful for having a quiet summer with no children well and that's exactly what we're going to do now actually so i thought we'd do a bit of a bit of a seasonal version so you can do this for for the moment for the day before so three the great things that have happened today three great things that happened yesterday we're going to do a seasonal version because we're at this transitional point so i'll think back over this summer i want you to bring to mind three good things that happened so they can be significant they can be small they can be work they could be personal it doesn't matter as long as it's felt meaningful for you so take a moment now al to identify your three good things for this summer and you do the same listener take the moment now and identify your three good things so if anyone's not not listened to maybe about three months ago or two months ago then we got kicked out of the country we live in because of the um we had a lawyer who was less than honest and so didn't do the things he was going to do so that was a bit of a disaster because we were devastated because that's what we were spending our summer from over summer was going to be in our beautiful house in most are in bosnia i know i'm sorry it's triggering however i'm really grateful that we were friends with a lovely guy called nicola who's in bulgaria who had a spare house with a communal pool outside it and we could for a very reasonable price we were allowed we allowed us to stay for three months and I love that I too am grateful for Nico and this is where we need to extend the exercise a little bit I think people typically think about gratitude practices like oh well these are my three things I'm done let's move on for the day no we need a bit more time thinking about that thing we're grateful for so Nico as you say his kindness is generosity why does that matter to you and what does it reveal about what's important to you what you value again regular listeners will know that we spent we spent probably the last seven eight years just traveling around sometimes every week we'd move and I hadn't realized how much I was enjoying the stability of our life when we were in Mostar and how we've been there about 18 months and we plan to be there for two years in the same house and I hadn't really I hadn't really understood how much that was important to me at this point in my life maybe it's maybe it's it's because we spent so much time bouncing around maybe it's because i'm a bit older now i was what 40 that was 42 43 when first started traveling maybe 40 actually now i'm approaching 50 perhaps i do want to just calm down a little bit so yeah that's probably that and then also i always this can sound so cheesy but it always fills me with joy when someone is a decent person and we we uh we spoke to for example when our previous guests megan furlong brown um if you've listened to the episode you know that i'm always getting a name wrong but mfd she was a great person on linkedin then we interviewed and we found out she was actually a great person in real life and that filled me with joy because i'm like yeah often the opposite happens you think someone's cool and then they use you for something and then you're like oh but but yeah so that's that's probably why and it's just under it's underlined how cool nico was and how he's like yeah yeah fine no worries yeah of course you can come over yeah and it's those values isn't it that are so important to both of us that kindness that generosity that that helping people and i think for me i'm also really i really i'm so grateful that i guess when when you travel around you can start to have these thoughts that entirely true where you think you've taken time away from building relationships and you've taken time away from from the people who are really meaningful to you and I think for me coming back and spending time with Nico again made me realize that these relationships continue um and they can be strengthened again in the future and and yes that's that's absolutely what I'm grateful for as well so that's the idea so you identify another two things that you're grateful for you didn't inspect them a little bit more.

15:38Why does it matter to you? What does it say about who you are, who you want to be? What does it reveal about what you value? It's not just about happy memories. It's really clues as to what energizes you and what you want to carry into autumn. So it might be that into autumn, we want to continue to invest our energy in people who are kind and generous and on the same values level as we are, and maybe not waste our time and energy on some people who showed very different values during that period for us. Yes, we will not be naming those people. Okay, so that's cool. So the first one was that I think that I'm really grateful that people are cool and cool people are cool.

16:16I like that. Second, really quickly then, what I'm really grateful for is just in terms of like the technical stack of producing a podcast. Obviously, we have a podcast studio, beautiful studio. We've got lights, we've got teleprompters, we've got cameras, we've got everything. We obviously couldn't take that. So we end up just taking our microphones and our phones. And we've started, I've now learned that a podcast, particularly audio only, you don't need 90 % of the tech we've got at home. So that's really cool. And it also means that then you can go, right, well, we can go and take our microphones and go and do a pod somewhere else.

16:47We'll go away for four weeks and we'll just take our microphones and go on holiday. Yeah, that's true. We might be a bit more flexible in terms of traveling and working rather than, yeah, stacking it all ahead. Absolutely. and my final one is I'm really grateful for Bulgarian wine or more specifically the wine the international varieties of wine that are available to buy in Bulgaria yes I am grateful for Lidl's rosé yeah if you're not from Europe then there's a supermarket called Lidl L-I-D-L it's German and they just stock the best because they'll stock maybe 40 types of wine rather than 4 ,000 but of those 40 35 will be just exceptional so yes and what a lovely three because i think that really shows how varied they can be we've got one that is very much kind of values relationships based one that's very much work and in practicality based and one that's just something that brings us a bit of joy on a friday afternoon in the sunshine to have a cool glass of rose i'm grateful for that i'm also going to be very grateful my april spritz i'm going to have later we're recording this on a saturday it's how dedicated we are guys you should be so thankful you really should okay so that was the exercise two which did it have a name like the first three things three good things so tgt yeah so at this point you might be thinking leanne that we're 15 minutes in and we've not started planning yet no we haven't because we need to take a minute to ground ourselves in the present we need to take some time to look back and reflect and and gratefulness does breathe this optimism and hope and energy.

18:21And hopefully I do feel a bit more energised now going into this because I'm like, yeah, there are cool people in the world and we have figured something out about work and I'm going to have a glass of Aperol spritz in about an hour. You know, I'm ready. I'm ready. Let's do this. Okay, so talking of doing it, can we just pause for a second and go for a quick break? And then when we come back, what are we doing after the break? Future self-vision. So after the break, we'll be looking ahead. Brilliant. We'll see you in a second. Did you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's us by the way and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network we actually have a lot in common we both use behavioural science to help people do better at work and we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode and two out of three of us are devilishly good looking and you're not going to say which Phil, host of Nudge UK's number one marketing podcast it's brought to you we need to do this in threes the HubSpot Podcast Network the audio destination or business professional seamless seamless tell us about your latest episode phil uh we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how new york indie bands are paying agencies to create fake tiktok videos about how much they like their work and we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics business and brands as well it is it's such it's such a good show.

19:44Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better? It can. And are we all just status-seeking monkeys? I am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts. But come back. Yeah, come back. Definitely come back, because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in.

20:14okay welcome back future self-vision i think was what you said wasn't it yes so we're looking at something that stems from research from ucla psychologist hal hirshfield so what hal did is use neuroimaging studies and found that when we think about our future selves our brains light up as if we're thinking about strangers which is somewhat problematic because we're not often kind to ourselves in the moment because we won't think about future lianne that's that's nothing connected with me that's too abstract so it's it's hard to do things like save for a time and or stick to long-term goals because it feels like we're doing things for favors people we're doing favors for people who don't really matter that much oh that makes sense so when you think about for example um i want i want to be someone who goes to the gym like twice or three times a week i am not someone who goes to the gym three or four times a week.

21:11I think I've been three or four times in my entire life. So I want to be that person. But in my brain, that person is just such a total stranger to me that I can't either, I can't see the way to get to be that person. Or it's very easy for me to say, do you know what, maybe tomorrow, maybe tomorrow I'll go for a long walk. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And what this research went on to find is that when we actually visualize our future yourselves really vividly then we can make better long-term decisions so actually one study people who saw digitally aged photos of themselves allocated 30 more money to retirement savings well that makes sense and i think there's there's something like um i think it's norman vincent peele who said uh whatever the mind can conceive and believe it can achieve which is a bit of a cheesy thing to say but from what i've understood is there's some science that shows that when you imagine yourself doing something not your future self but imagine yourself doing something it's the same brain receptors on an fmri that light up as if you were actually doing it is that is that right have i made that up yeah no no that sounds sounds right yeah so by vividly imagining it and we're not talking about this whole like you know sitting cross-legged in the middle of a field um imagining you know it's think about look at footballers the majority of footballers imagine scoring and it goes through their head so vividly that when it comes to the point where they've got an opportunity to score they score same with racing drivers with rally drivers rally drivers imagine the course skiers they're very famous for just imagining going through the course at the beginning of it so this isn't some kind of wanky little sort of new age thing this is actually it works and professional people use this they do and it can be really practical as well so what we're going to do to um to use this neuroscience is imagine what al is going to look like on december 31st 2025 25 so heading into new year's eve so guarantee he's gonna be fatter we don't know that i might be going to the gym um but basically all you're gonna do is just think about write it down or think out loud al because it's probably better for the medium of audio i want you to describe to me what you're proud of what have you achieved that you're really proud of by the end of december so let's fast forward to december i think what i'm proud of is getting our secret top secret project off the ground and at least three or four people having given us some money basically if we've sold it sold the consultancy so how does that feel to have done that well that's what feels great and you know what's interesting and i know this is a very privileged position the money doesn't really interest me that much what interests what what what I'd be so proud of is that I have managed to relay the value of our top secret project, which obviously involves my wife doing consultancy around workplace wellbeing.

24:07I don't think it takes a genius to work out that that was, that was the case, but that I have managed to convince a stranger of the value that Leanne's going to bring in advance. And so therefore they trusted me enough to give me some money. And I think that I just want to be clear that when I say some money, I'm not like going, oh, it's going to be cheap. It's not going to be cheap. It's going to be expensive. But the difference is that if someone gives you some money for a future, for a future event or a future outcome, they trust you enough. And that trust is so difficult to do. It's like, there's no real difference between someone giving you one pound and someone giving you a million pounds because to get someone to go from i'll have it for free to i'll give you a pound for it there's a huge jump to get someone to trust you so unpack that and tell me about what happened in my childhood to make me think like that well why is that the most the thing you're most proud of because we're going to do loads of things over the next few months right we're going to get some really cool guests on we might have another surge in growth we might do that other thing that we've been working on tip tapping away at why is it this secret well-being project that you're achieving that is the thing you'll be most proud of i think partly because it's been about four years in the making behind the scenes um it's the culmination of everything you know and things i've learned um it'll also be me going back to my marketing roots i used to do a load of marketing I had a marketing agency and I haven't done marketing for years now.

25:42I did, of course, do a little bit on the podcast, but it would be, if we just, if we finished the year and we didn't do anything like that, looking at the opposite, then all we've done is the podcast, which is cool and it pays us a nice amount of money. Thank you very much, HubSpot. We love that money. Love HubSpot. Love HubSpot. But that would be the same, we've just achieved the same thing we did the year before. Whereas this is something different. Do you know what it is? I think we've taken something or I will have taken something that doesn't exist and I will make it exist. Entrepreneur 101, my friend.

26:21That's what it's going to be. And genuinely, I felt myself feeling a bit differently when I said that. I bring something into the world that A, the world needs, or I believe they will. And B, I've brought it in. It didn't exist and it does exist now. Brilliant. so what we've done there what you've done there Al is by examining it a bit more and that's all coaching is right coaching questions like that which is essentially why is is the basis of any coaching question is you've taken it from oh we're gonna sell this product and people are gonna give this money for it to I'm gonna create something that's not existed before that people need that's gonna make an impact I'm gonna feel really proud of that because that reflective of who I am as a professional and what gets me excited that is an excellent excellent goal al an excellent thing for for future al to be proud of can i just thank you listener for going along with my sort of three or four minutes of rambling um i think in a normal situation you probably would go away for five minutes think about it and write it down so that's but in this medium that'll be quite dull to have dead air so you would but i think you'd probably go through a similar a similar conversational process either with your with yourself on paper it might be that first thing you thought of that you're proud of you think actually that isn't the thing i'm going to be most proud of it's going to be something else but it's getting to that because that was your objective that one thing if this was more of a curiosity based exercise it might be more about what's not so the thing you're most proud of but what's the thing that's the coolest thing that you've discovered or the best idea that you've you've had or you know it's it's switching it slightly to meet the objective that we're after but you wanted that one thing else was that your one thing yeah that's my one thing Brilliant.

28:02So let's go into our next exercise, which is making it happen. Okay. Just see the process here. Just see how we're building. We're compounding it out. I like it. I like it. I feel like I'm at a TED talk. So making it happen. I think you're going to like the name of this exercise, Al. Is it cheese? Nope. It's whoop. Say it again. Whoop. I like it. Yeah. So this is about making it practical with a method. It's a goal setting method called Whoop, W-O-O-P. developed by another wonderful psychologist, Gabrielle Oettingen, I think is how you say it. Oettingen. NYU, which is very cool. Do you know what?

28:39That's the place I think I wish I'd like and an alternative life. I would have gone to NYU. Would you? Is that New York? Yeah. Oh, you wouldn't last a month in New York. No, that version of Leanne couldn't though. That version of Leanne would have been like. Not the country bumpkin from Wales. Exactly, yeah. Anyway, so Gabrielle's research basically shows us that visualising success isn't enough it's a good start so we visualized it and that's good but um if we didn't then change it into something more practical it could actually decrease our motivation because our brain basically thinks that you've already achieved it well okay yeah yeah yeah fair enough yeah i think therefore it's done i love that i love that uh yeah so i mean this won't be a surprise to anybody who's who's yeah is training coaching or is undertaking some coaching or basically read any book about goals um yeah goals um are really the thing that that make it happen having those specific plans um and specifically with with this one as well most really effective goal setting is identifying the obstacles as well so that's what we're going to do well um so whoop stands for wish outcome obstacle plan okay okay so first we need the wish that one important thing that you want to achieve this autumn we know that is don't we yeah we want to get we want to get this secret top secret project rx7 rx7 we want to get that into the world is it challenging but achievable yeah okay lovely that's our wish then outcome is that it so basically your wish has to be challenging but achievable challenging but achievable so if i was like right i'm gonna i'm gonna compete in the tour de france tour de france next year that is challenging but not achievable for me who have literally forgotten to write how to ride a bike yeah yeah maybe but if i said i wanted to build a website for rx7 then that's achievable but not really challenging not for you not for you well it depends on the person it'd be very challenging for me i don't know where to start but yes exactly challenging but achievable so that's our wish next is outcome so i want you to imagine the best result if you achieve this wish what will be different uh what will be different what do you mean by what will be different what will be different about your work life once it's achieved so this is the outcome is it yeah yeah okay what'll be different what's going to be the biggest difference biggest outcome is probably that there will be something in the hands of other people that they didn't have before that's genuinely useful so i'm just talking out loud here um that's a lovely one yeah that's probably and then the personal outcome for me is that once we've sold 10 of these then i know myself and i'm probably going to lose interest in but i'll have created all of the stuff required for someone else to step in and run that process of getting more clients for you to to service um and yeah that's probably talk me through what are those good answers yeah really good answers because again you're you're kind of it goes going back to that the biggest thing about that wish was that you've brought something into existence that didn't exist previously so even by extending that to thinking i know i'm going to get bored because once it exists i'm bored but i am also gonna have built in all the wraparound that somebody else can pick that up and and run with it so yeah it's going to be different in that it exists it's a thing and it's a thing that somebody else can lead and in terms of how that's going to make you feel you've brought something into existence you've given it beautiful structure so somebody else can can make something wonderful of it and you get to move on to the next exciting thing cool okay so that's what we've done what so far what what what yeah um so the next o is obstacle so what is the biggest internal barrier so what is it within you something perhaps that could get in the way so we're not saying the biggest obstacle is that you don't know how to do google ads for example that's not the where the obstacle comes from the obstacle will become from me going, oh, I'll do it next week.

32:43Oh, I'll do it next week. And then Christmas comes around and I've not done it. I suppose, do you know what? Being real honest, I think my biggest obstacle is that I would start planning this out and then I would go down so many rabbit holes and go, oh, you're cool if it did this and you're cool if it did that, cool if it did the other thing and start building it so that by the time the first of December comes, I've actually built all the bits and pieces that fit with it, but I've still not spoken to a single person. um that's the problem and there are some there's two different types of business owners i think there's people who like love going out there and selling something that doesn't exist and i wish i was those but i'm i'm not really i don't think and i'm and then there's the other people who will sit in a room and build it and then go and sell it and both of those people they've got pros and cons you want to be somewhere in between where you build the minimum viable product they call it mvp minimum viable product go out there and engage the interest on it and then if there is interest then sell it and build the rest of it i think so unpack that if you're being honest with yourself what's driving this pattern of thinking that results in this behavior to want to add stuff to it and explore more and keep the curiosity going rather than the focus because if we wanted to be devil's avocado one could say that that is just a very nice way of thinking about procrastination.

34:06I'm not procrastinating. I'm staying curious. I say, I say it's procrastinating. So what is it that drives that? Is it a fear of talking to people? Is it habit of just that's how you work? There isn't a time pressure to it. What's driving that? It's probably one of two things. It's probably the first one is that I just want it to be good. So if someone says no to it, I want them to say no to something which I think is good. So I go, okay, it's not for you. That's fine. And there's probably a little bit of insecurity there as well. When you show something to the world and it's like half-baked, people will be like, well, that's a bit rubbish, isn't it?

34:47Does it do that? No, it doesn't yet. No, no. Oh, well, it's not very good, is it? So there's that. The other part of me, which you've just thought of, is potentially I know that once I've got it done or once I'm out there selling it, the countdown begins to me losing interest in it. That's probably more likely that I know that if I start having 10 phone calls a week and I'm converting two to three of them and selling it, then I've probably got nine weeks left and then I'm going to lose interest. we've identified though in your perfect outcome that that's built in you've given yourself permission to lose interest yeah i have yeah oh interesting interesting yes you're right i've given myself i've already built in the fact that we'll go and bring someone else in to manage this oh okay so actually that is if you spin that on this put it on his head spin it you're saying that the quicker i get to the point of losing interest the quicker i can go off and do other cool things because i've got someone else in to do it to manage it yeah hmm might be something in this coaching stuff you know leanne maybe so let's go back again to that now we've had that that reflection so that that pattern of thinking which i'm going to call procrastination fine unless as you said the fear of it not being good so the only way i see this continued or prolonged period of development, should we say, rather than...

36:22So it doesn't become procrastination. The only way you can do that is knowing how it's good. So how will you know this is good or good enough for an MVP? Well, you need to go out there and show people it and see what they say. Right. So you can't judge yourself if it's good enough. No. And this is the irony is that now it sounds like grown-up Al is now joined the conversation and is now looking back over at Stupid Al who's sitting over there and going, what the hell were you talking about a few minutes ago? Because you're right. You should be able to go out there. You should be able to sell the dream and we go, okay, this is what we're building.

36:53This is what we've got so far. Are you in? If you're interested, just give us a hundred quid to show us that you're definitely interested and then help us build out the rest of it. And if you go out there and you collect a hundred quid neither here nor there, so you go out there and collect 10 people, you're not going to change the world with that money, but you will have 10 people who have given you that more than one more than zero to say they're interested so yes that's interesting so actually in theory when we get back home in about um in about a week's time i could in theory just start emailing or cold calling people um yeah maybe maybe future al didn't hear that it is a lot more fun to be fair i'm not frightened of cold calling i'm not frightened of emailing i'm not frightened of talking to people but i don't think anybody even the harvey specters of the world or the Great salespeople in the world.

37:40I'm not sure they love cold calling and cold emailing. No, no. Well, it's one of those things. We love it when you do it and you get a good outcome because it makes the uncomfortable thing worth it. But if you don't, then it's just soul destroying. And I say that having worked in outreach sales myself a long time ago. Okay, this is really, really good. Excellent, excellent reflection here. So in terms of this obstacle, it started that, oh, well, it will be me potentially overthinking about it I want to spend a bit more time on development, wanting to make sure it's really good. Afraid that the sooner I get it there, I'm going to lose interest.

38:17Well, what we've actually said is from our outcome, you've already given yourself permission to lose interest. That's baked into achieving the outcome. And in terms of is it good enough, you've now said on further reflection that actually that's part of it. You need to take it when it's not quite good enough. You need to be able to sell the dream and get feedback from the market, from potential customers. so is it fair then that the main obstacle is going to be procrastination yeah sadly yes okay so let's move on to the p let's finish the whoop yeah okay so plan an if then statement for me so if you face the obstacle so if you face procrastination then i will what what's a specific action you can take to address that obstacle?

39:05Back when I did telesales, I used to write down the number of direct no's I'd got. So I'd have a piece of paper and I'd think in my head I'm making 50, 60, 70 cold calls a day and therefore, and I'm selling three, so therefore I'm getting 47 people saying no to me. But actually what happened was I found that the majority of people just said, oh mate, I'm in the middle of something or no, they're not around or didn't answer or whatever. So really I was getting like five no's and three yes's. And I was like, oh, oh, so I'm like, you know, I want like a 30 % or slightly more 38 % success rate here.

39:43And that helped me to reframe. So I'm saying this out loud because I'm trying to think, what is it? So if I find myself opening my laptop and going, right, I'm just going to very quickly build this panel into the software, that's procrastination. So I should be doing something. Tell me, you know me better than most people in the world. What would be my signs of procrastination? I think you just identified one there, isn't it? That open that laptop. And if the first thing you're going to do isn't something that's going to contribute to the outcome, then it's procrastination. It might be that you have to build that panel because you had a conversation with somebody the day before that said, or with five people that said that would be the main thing they'd want to see.

40:25So you'd have to do that. so i guess it's it's identifying in that moment the minute you're you're putting off any task that is driving towards the outcome is one identifying it as procrastination that's the first thing and catching yourself in the moment isn't it reflecting on your group will also help with that in terms of what's the wish what's the outcome what's the obstacle am i in this moment indulging too much in the obstacle what do you think are the main reasons that you do procrastinate I think one of the reasons that a lot of people procrastinate is, especially if you have ownership of an idea and you go off and you say to people in the world, in real life, here's my idea.

41:08What do you think of my idea? And they go, it's a rubbish idea. Then you go, well, that was my idea. And it kind of like they're talking there. It feels like they're going, well, that's rubbish. And therefore, by extension, you're rubbish. So I think there's a lot of that. so really what needs to happen i think is to take and i've do you know what's funny is that hi jeremy what's funny is that with a lot of people i've been speaking to i've coached through this thing i've gone look there are four stages and and the first one is you're a scientist and you just got an experiment and you're going okay so this is what i think might work let's go and see if it'll work and you go oh that was interesting it didn't work so what do we need to tweak to get that to work i think that's what i need to do i think i need to take the idea and treat it as a hypothesis that needs testing.

41:54So if I may then, what you're saying is, if I face procrastination, then I will remember I'm a scientist. Oh yes, yes, that's probably it, isn't it? Yeah, so if I face procrastination, it's probably because I don't want someone to say it's a bad idea, and then I have to remind myself, it's not my idea, it's an idea. hmm nice hmm lovely my course will be coming out at christmas 999 early bird access exactly that though and sure write that write that down afterwards once once we finish is write down your loop and and write that that statement down so if i face procrastination then i will remember i'm a scientist or what was the exact thing you said again no i think that remember you're a scientist you're testing a hypothesis an idea not the idea so it's not your idea it's an idea and it's actually my idea that helps all it is your idea and also the science is sound so if people don't want it then they're just wrong so that's another one if i face procrastination i'll go to leanne for a pep talk yes that's what i'll do uh now lovely so recap cap me on your route pal what's your wish so wish is to have a number of people who've made some kind of financial commitment to the have i got this right i've forgotten already yeah is that right yeah make a financial commitment to the rx7 um system or roadmap or blueprint that we're putting together um o was obstacle outcome outcome uh how is that different to the wish so the best result So the outcome is, if you remember, this is a key one for you.

43:32It exists in the world and I've done all the wraparound. So I've given myself permission to lose interest in it. Oh, okay. Right. Yes. So that's the outcome. It's ready. It's generating revenue, enough revenue to me to go and find someone else and put them in that role. The outcome is the best possible version of the wish coming true. Okay. Got it. What's your obstacle? Procrastination. And what's your plan? whenever I whenever I find myself procrastinating saying to myself it's just a hypothesis at this stage and as long as I keep hypothesizing then I will come up with something or at the or at Christmas if I've I've come up with 10 hypotheses spoken to 200 people and nobody wants it well it's that's that's actually probably quite a good thing to find out rather than spending three months building something when no one wanted it in the first place yeah and it might be that after after four weeks of work you need to sit down october and create another whoop yeah on what you've based um and what yeah what you plan to do and do write it out if you are listening and thinking i think i've got a whoop you do have a whoop you probably have more than one whoop um but do write it out it does show that um it's actually more effective when you physically physically do that energy transference and between the brain and and yeah it's very much a thing interesting you know you're talking before about how um it's hard to envisage your future self you can actually use that to your advantage so if you journal if you journal in the third person particularly if you're experiencing something quite heavy emotionally you might say something like um leanne had a really tough day today she did 10 sales calls and everyone said no it makes her feel like she's not worthy or the idea is useless or that she was wrong um talking about yourself in the third person distances yourself even more from those emotions more so than just regular journey does because again the neuroimaging shows that the energy transference goes from our amygdala our kind of emotional brain to our prefrontal cortex our thinking brain so yeah there you go we can use some of these things to our advantage so how are you feeling al you've got your whoop yeah i think so i think because i'm quite visual visual or whatever the word is then i would want to see it written down i think so i think what we've said this this this is a bit of a contrived situation because we would normally write things down wouldn't we yes um so i think once I'd see it written down, I'm like, okay.

45:46But the one thing that's come out of this, because this is interesting, I knew a little bit about what you were going to do. I deliberately didn't look too much at your notes. And I thought we were going to end up with a plan to sell the RX-7, to develop and sell the RX-7 by Christmas. And what we've actually ended up with is simply go out there, ask people if they want it. And if enough people don't, change what I'm asking them. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think it's almost kind of one... step further even in that we've gone through all the psychological processes we need to accept the transition feel like we've got the energy to move forward identify what that obstacle is going to be in ourselves not that the market doesn't want it or or you know the advertising campaign will fail it's actually what's within me that's going to potentially sabotage this so now when you go and write your plan the plan will the plan will plan you'll be able to do that and you can do loads of different frameworks to to help you actually do that step by step this is really more about the the planning for your psychological self to make this happen interesting something i never ever would have thought of doing and if you said to me do you want to do this i'd be like no thanks no i do i do not but it's been very worthwhile do you know what i think what's my favorite thing about coaching is when you get somebody who's a bit skeptical yeah and then they starts to starts to be like oh right yeah yeah no i did yeah yeah anyway so let's move on to our final exercise which is energy intention so our closing reflection okay the destination is important now we know this but what's more important the journey exactly enjoying the journey okay so let's think about the end of september and this is where we can start to get a bit more practical as well what's the one thing you could have done by the end of septem that you're going to feel freaking great about i think it's got to be that i've got to at least have one phone call i think that's it because once you have one then you feel you know oh yeah i could do some more of these and yeah i want to do some more of these so i think it's probably got to have one phone call and to have one phone call i probably need to probably spend a week or so thinking about exactly what it is that we're going to deliver not like over covert i know you look at it with your wide eyes not procrastinating but just so that someone so i don't go do you want to do this they go yeah how would you do it i go oh no oh so i think we need to have a little bit of a sort of a plan um but no that's it really and i kind of feel a little bit excited i'm like yeah let's go and talk to some people by the way if you're listening and you want to be someone one of my first people check the show notes my email's in there brilliant so it's kind of saying that we'd we would have had the first first customer call yeah by the end September what I like is you didn't even say that you'd converted it no that's a good point why why was that not important because like you said before the obstacle was that I wasn't going to book the calls the obstacle isn't that they'd say no and what's your outcome outcome is to have have us have something in place that I can hand off to someone else which is that was out there Yeah, so your outcome was having basically customers paying money for this product and having a process around you can hand it off.

49:04So the outcome is the conversion. So it's not reasonable to accept that outcome by the end of September. I know it's a good point. Yes, good point. Sorry, I was thinking. Yes, good point. So normally what I would do is go, right, okay, what do they call them? BHAGs, big, hairy, audacious goals. goals i'd be like okay so i want to have 10 customers by the end of end of september what you're saying to me lee is no that's not your end of september goal that's probably your beginning december goal but that's not your end of the end of september goal your end of september goal is to have spoken to at least one person about this you said that to me i didn't say that to you you said to me i said what what can you do by the end of september he said i've spoken to at least one person okay that was you telling me that but it's all i want to do is kind of really reinforce that it wasn't the conversion it wasn't getting that sale that's further down the line so remember that for you it's getting that that first conversation done and as you said some steps before that to be able to facilitate those conversations but will probably mean you and me sitting down going through exactly what it is that that we're doing why it's important why people need it why it's so transformative etc etc um yeah so basically the next four weeks we need to sit down have that conversation figure out exactly what it is that we're offering and you need to speak to at least one person about it okay okay that feel achievable by september absolutely and how do you reckon you're going to feel after you've had that phone call good i think i love talking to people on the phone about new ideas energized yeah energized yeah yeah lovely so then feeling energized feeling like we've achieved something how do you then think that's gonna um influence your mindset going into october knowing that you still have three months until you have to achieve your perfect outcome yeah i think that's it once you make it's like everything isn't it if you can get yourself to the gym then the majority then the likelihood is you'll spend an hour doing something um and not just eating snacks in the foyer like i did once um so if you can get yourself to the gym So if you can get literally that meeting booked, well, you're going to do something cool in that meeting and then you want to book another one and another one.

51:17So, yes. So you want to feel energized by the end of September. And the way you're going to get energized is having that conversation with the customer. And the way you're going to have a conversation with that customer is just conversations to refine the product in its fine print. We've got the foundations. Yes, exactly. So there's only actually three actions that need to be taken between now in September to make a massive step forward towards your your whoop by the end of the year so there you go there you go and it is it's kind of that once you can kind of name how you want to feel then you can shape your decisions and your choices and your actions to match that intention so again when you're maybe procrastinating you can you can use that as a statement as well as that you know I'm feeling like I'm procrastinating I want to feel energized um yeah it all ties together how are we feeling?

52:08good yes that was good it was kind of weird doing it with your wife and it was kind of even weird doing it in public yeah quite vulnerable isn't it yeah yeah so please don't please don't be nasty to me on LinkedIn although I never go on so I won't see you being nasty if you want to be do something like this with Leanne which I think you should because if you listen this far you're obviously interested in it then get in touch because I'm sure you can make that happen for some people I'd be very yeah very very happy to um and you can do this yourself as well as i said i frame this as self coaching session so of course it's it's ideal to do it with a trained coach it's also very effective to do it with somebody else whether it be a friend or a business partner or a colleague and you have that kind of mutual um session together it's something you can do by yourself as well um so to run through them again ground yourself and stop reflect on the three good things connect with your future self make a concrete plan using roop and set an energy intention for the weeks ahead and they're not just one-time things as we said it might be your group will need to be revised at the end of september stop can be a daily habit that you have three good things is perfect in terms of your journaling um and your future self is also a really good one if you are finding yourself procrastinating from time to time um so there you go al you've got your whoop so thanks again for listening we're back on thursday with another amazing interview uh we're also back home in Moss style.

53:34So you'll probably notice that things will be a little bit better quality, audio quality. On our last couple of interviews, unfortunately, I've had to use AirPods and that wasn't. We just didn't cut it. So we will see you next week. And if you've enjoyed this, then go back and maybe listen to a few more of the summer ones from about June onwards because they're all a bit different, aren't they? They are. They are. And let us know what your whoop is. That would be awesome. Get in touch on LinkedIn. Tell us your whoop and we will whoop for you. Hashtag what's your whoop. That's our new tag. Right.