230. How to Stand Out Without Burning Out (Truth, Lies & Work x Nerd Journey)

0:02Hello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture. We are brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne and I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist. My name is Al, I'm a business owner. And together we help you simplify the science of work. Welcome back, welcome back. It is firmly September territory, Leanne. Firmly. Firmly. Yeah, this week we're bringing you something a little special. Yes, we are. So you may remember from back in the summer how we talked about resignations can typically peak in September.

0:35Because it's true, those long summer nights allowed for a lot of thinking and a lot of reflection. So traditionally as well, coinciding with that, the run-up to Christmas and into the New Year is a pretty good time to get job hunting. So we thought we'd share a conversation on how you can stand out in your team, whether you've just joined it or if you're looking for that step up. Yeah, so if you were here with us over summer, you'll remember the first half of a long chat we had on another podcast called Nerd Journey. That show is run by John White and Nick Corte, and they're both former IT ops professionals.

1:07Now they're in tech sales. They've made almost 350 episodes helping people in tech figure out their careers. The sort of advice they wish that someone had given them earlier on. In that first part, we talked about the pressure on managers, why so many teams are suddenly bigger. what happens when organisations get flatter and how leaders can still do their jobs well when everything feels a little bit uncertain. Yeah, that was back in episode 224, which came out about mid-August, if I remember. If you haven't heard it, then feel free to go back and start with that one, because that's part one and this is part two.

1:37Although you can still listen to this as a standalone. That episode really seemed to hit home with a lot of you, because we had messages saying it felt very close to what's going on at work right now. So today we're bringing you the second half of that conversation. this part is more about being in the team so how you get clear on what your job actually is how you stand out for the right reasons without burning yourself out and why good managers need people around them too so they don't end up passing all that stress straight down the line so after this very very quick break we're going to bring you part two of our conversation with john and nick on the nerd journey podcast that's what i'd say is to highlight their skill your curiosity, your ability to coach, your ability to listen.

2:18I would snap up anyone, even if they had no experience at all, I would snap up anyone with their skills into a management role. John, this sounds a lot like the episode you did solo recently about the first-time manager, your job description's been deleted, and fighting the urge to answer the question. That was directly from a coaching course that I did, that as part of my first-time manager training that my employer provided or made available, didn't make mandatory. But I think it's exactly what Leanne just mentioned is it seems less efficient by time, right? If somebody comes to you with a problem and you know how to solve it, so you could just solve it.

3:01But then it's more efficient to guide them through the process of learning how to solve the problem themselves, even if it's short term, takes more time. Oh, this is something that I could do in 30 seconds. And it's going to take me five minutes to teach you how to do it. But I get back that 30 seconds for every single problem like this that you're going to bring to me instead of fixing yourself. Yeah. And you're building somebody's capability and confidence and thought process. And whilst doing that, which is great for their own professional development, you're creating a space for them where they feel safe to ask you the stupid questions that they know you know the answers to and then for you to have that space where you've then led them that they come to that answer or that conclusion that's a genuine interaction a human interaction that breeds this trust in this connection and psychological safety so you're not only gaining that 30 seconds back for every problem in the future you're gaining enormous amounts of trust and connection which are two vital things that that you need as a manager and generally in organizational life we we really need right now we were talking to a guy called andrew palmer who's from the economist yesterday or day before interviewing him for our podcast and he runs his own podcast is all getting very meta now called boss class i think which is an economist economist podcast he was telling about a time he went to the production facility in the uk for toyota and he said and you probably guys might have heard of this but i mean certainly in in the uk i think around the world there's got the big production line lots of people there working and there's a cord at the top of it which you can pull.

4:37Just in case anyone's not heard this, there's a cord you can pull and everything stops and you can ask a question or you can see if something's wrong with the machine you're working on or perhaps you just want to go to the toilet. You pull this cord and it stops and everybody stops. And so Andrew said, how many times a day do you think it gets pulled? And I guessed six or eight. It's an organization with 2 ,000 employees. And they'd also stop it to celebrate something or share good news or a win. But yeah, 2 ,000 employees, how many times each day was that cord pulled do you guys want to have a guess or do you want to tell you yeah no have a guess i'm gonna say less than three and i was gonna say 20 interesting andrew said 20 do you remember the number 1400 no it was it was a multiple of the number of people seven times every single person 14 000 times a day that cord's pulled 14 000 times someone stops it even just for like a second, but they stopped the entire production line because they see something they're not 100 % sure about or not comfortable with.

5:36Now, in terms of psychological safety, can you imagine that? That you're able seven times a day to stop the entire production of a plant just because of something you're going, is that supposed to be there? Should that be tighter? Anyway, I just thought that was a great story. And it's a great podcast, by the way, by The Economist. that's amazing and you're right it's a reflection on culture that the organization has fostered that people have the psychological safety to pull the cord i just wonder about the intermediate steps on how to do that but that's probably something that we'll listen to your interview about well yeah because he does talk this is quite interesting because we said the same question like yeah but your first day that first pull what do you do and he's like almost like they say like it's a bit of laugh the first day you have to pull it the first thing you do you just go up there grab it pull it and then it's out the way it's like back in the uk we used to be a thing if you ever worked in a bar the first day you had to go and deliberately break a glass on the floor because then it's out the way and it's done and everyone's laughed at you and then you crack on with your work and this is where a great manager of the coaching skills is gonna do this intuitively or intentionally anyway you You know, they're going to go to a new employee or a more junior employee and say, does this look right to you?

6:52There's something wrong here that I'm missing. Is there a way that we can improve it? And they go, well, yeah, maybe thought about just tweaking this. You know, fine. Well, that's what needs tweaking. But you're showing that openness and vulnerability to go, have your say, your voice is important here too. And that's probably the first baby step is you're literally asking them to pull the cord. While we're talking about managers, I want to go back to the concept of hiding the wires, Leanne, that we talked about in episode 238. So if my organization is flatter, I'm a manager with more people, how much more difficult is it for me to hide those wires?

7:25Is it more difficult because I have more people or is it the same? I'm not sure it is any harder or easier given that context. I think the important thing about hiding the wires is whether as a manager, you have somebody that you can share that emotional load with that stressful situation with whether it's your senior manager whether it's a peer whether it's an exterior coach whether it's an internal coach a mentor a therapist it's who do you go to to go oh my gosh this happened it's so annoying you won't believe what they're asking me to do now rather than saying that to your team I'm not sure necessarily the structure matters too much it could of course impact the relationship you have with your direct line manager perhaps they've been made redundant and they're not there anymore so it might require a reshuffling of of your your social support network but i think ultimately it's yeah it's it's finding something beyond your immediate team context um and the support you need to to offload that probably should have explained what hide the wires means before uh i asked about it or while i asked about it but my understanding of what you shared before was that you're essentially taking and not thrusting the emotional blowback or frustration from a situation you were in as a manager and putting it into a situation you have to take care of with one of your employees.

8:42Exactly. Yeah, it's storming into that team meeting and saying, you won't believe what they've asked us to do now. It's what psychologists call emotional regulation. It's understanding, having that self-awareness to kind of think that I'm feeling angry, but expressing that anger in this context right now isn't going to serve me or my team. That's not to say that that anger doesn't need to be expressed, it does, which is why you need somebody, whether it be a senior leader or a coach or someone else. Being mindful and having that self-awareness of how you operate emotionally in terms of your behaviors is going to have a direct impact on the mood motivation of your team.

9:17So if that's not going to be positive, then hide the wires. That's funny. I don't think that I realized that that is where I got that behavior. It is definitely from that interview. Because it is a difficult thing, right? When you're asked to relay something that you don't necessarily agree with, or you have some emotional friction with, to not pass along your reaction, you need the reaction from the people who you're getting feedback from to be an intermediary. Because, hey, part of the job is if that is causing some blowback at the individual contributor level, then as a manager, it's your responsibility to kind of aggregate that and pass that back up.

10:03But to inject one's own reaction into that chain is probably not fair. You don't want to necessarily cue people and burden them with your burdens. exactly and you also don't want to make an assumption that your team will have the same reaction because we don't work in a vacuum it might be that you've been asked to do that by a particularly difficult manager in a particularly difficult time you've had a bad morning anyway it might be that actually the idea isn't that bad it just needs a different view or a few tweaks if you take that to your team with with the context of you won't believe what they're asking us to do now this is outrageous I can't believe it you're putting them in a set already in a place of cognitive bias they're gonna think it's a bad idea unless they've got great levels of psychological safety go actually John I think I think it's an all right idea actually either way you don't want to put them in a position where they have to do the work to change your mind before they can you can explore the idea or the possibility you want to go in a neutral space to understand exactly what their thoughts are, chances are they're probably going to be the same as yours.

11:09On the off chance that they're not, then yeah, it's worth having some patience in that moment. And maybe the person who's passed that along to you isn't the originator of the idea either. There's always that too. Could we flip the earlier conversation that we had about a manager managing a large number of people on their team to being a member of a team that might be 15 or 20 people? I think for the individual contributors, it might be a little bit difficult to stand out as a high performer or to get time and attention, even just for help in a situation where the manager has twice as many people to manage.

11:51Do you have any ideas or guidance maybe that we can pass along? The difficulty is, and this is the business owner equivalent of the psychologist, it depends, because it very much depends on what the manager of that team is like, whether they are overwhelmed and aren't in the space to look out for, you know, great people, whether they already have their office door shut because they've got their working late into the night. They've not got time for your stuff. If we take it, if we take the situation as let's assume that they are a decent manager and they want to find people who are good, I think it'll depend whether you're in a sales environment, which case is very target driven.

12:31So the way to stand out in sales is to be really good at sales, to bring home to close, but just close decent deals and be a decent human being about it. So that's a different thing. If you are, for example, let's say that you're a backend developer, well, what's your target there? Is it commits? Is it book free? Is it whatever? I'm struggling to think of something that is universally will do this and your manager will understand, well, sorry, will appreciate you and will notice you. Just like if you're out dating, those books that tell you like, you know, the pickup artist saying, just go and wear a yellow feather boa or something, that'll work on all the women.

13:09Of course it won't. And of course it doesn't work anyway, but it just makes you stand out a little bit for a second and be not boring. And those books, obviously, I'm not condoning, I think they're rubbish, but they were trying to peddle this idea of there's a simple trick, one simple hack that your manager doesn't want you to know sort of thing. That's what they want you to do. And the problem is that the way I see it, I don't know if there is something, but luckily we're joined by a psychologist who might have a better idea. I think you found it. I just don't think you put your finger on it.

13:39What you talked about, the example of sales is perfect because there's such role clarity in sales roles. There's so much clarity over exactly what my job is, exactly what my outcomes need to be, exactly how they can be measured, exactly how I'm targeted, exactly how that relates to the revenue I'm generating with a company, there's so much clarity in sales. Because as an employee, you know exactly what it is that you have to do at a transactional level to deliver the outcomes of your role. If you can go as an employee to your manager and say, I want to understand exactly what your expectations are of me, exactly what great looks like, exactly what it is you want to deliver, how do I make you look great?

14:17Because I know as a salesperson, I make my sales manager look great by hitting my target 120 %? How do I make you look great in a compliance role, in a HR role, in an operations role? What are the objectives that I need to hit? And trying to gain that role clarity, which actually a lot of people don't have typically in their roles. So trying to gain that role clarity is going to be really helpful in having that honest conversation with your manager. And I think ultimately, as long as you know exactly what you have to deliver, and you're doing what you can to deliver it and where you can above and beyond and where you can make your manager look good or make their life easier, the life of your colleagues easier.

14:57That's what exceptional performance looks like to me in a non-sales role. It's somebody who is very clear on what they need to deliver, are very willing to support their colleagues in helping them deliver too for the team and are very much there as a supportive member of staff to the manager should they also need support in moments like that. Is it as easy in practice? Probably not because you're going to need a very good manager who's going to have that clarity themselves and feel confident having that conversation with you. But that's where I would start. And would that be something that we would want to make sure we do regularly, seeking that clarity of role, especially in a world where the team might have been reorganized or restructured or have a new focus or a new goal or have been impacted by layoffs?

15:46absolutely and it's actually a really an opportunity if you have gone through this team change to bring that conversation to your manager in a very open and just curious way now everything has changed people have moved on how has that changed expectations of the team of the organization what we want to deliver um it goes back to you know i'm sure you've heard about it and talked about before but around kind of formation of teams we have a major team and teams go back into forming and storming and norming and and that process is going to start again and part of that process getting through effectively is people having clarity over what it is exactly the team is trying to achieve and my individual role in that mission delivery so yeah if you've had a recent change like that it's really your manager should be coming to you and telling you what this now new normal looks like but if they're not it'd be a great move to to go and have that proactive conversation with your manager with openness and curiosity.

16:43I know I asked this question, but you all have sparked these thoughts in my mind. I remember there was just like all these administrative tasks that I was responsible for the team. Hey, have you updated these things in our customer relationship management system on a weekly basis? Have you done this tasks A, B, and C that we're responsible for every week? I would have this Wednesday reminder where I had to go in and check to make sure that everybody had done all these tasks. And then I would go and remind people like, hey, I needed this done, you know, at the beginning of the day, can you go in and do it now?

17:20And the people who let me know, you know, in the middle of the day, the day before, hey, this is done. I'm done with this. And I could like look back consistently and go, oh, these are the people that I always have to ask to do this task. And these are the people that are always telling me that task is already done. I would imagine that if I had a team that was twice as large, that would be even more important. Hey, here's the expectations that this stuff gets done every week as an intermediate part of our larger goal of X. And if the manager's not making it clear, maybe because they're not trained, as we talked about earlier, then an individual contributor who can raise their hand and ask the question, maybe in a one-on-one situation, hey, does this make your job easier if I, as a member of the team, do this on time or regularly or let you know that it's done early or if I help other people, something along those lines.

18:23And just asking that question, if you say you really want to stand out in a team, how many of your teammates you've got 25 teammates one manager how many of your teammates are going to get in their one-to-one are going to say how do i make your job easier teammate to manager how do i make your job easier how do i make you look great to your boss how many people would think to ask that question so if you are asking for that one hack that we talked about we joked about that seems to be it you've just you've just you've put your your finger on it is you go and say what like Leanne says how do I make you look great or how do I make your job easier like you just said that John the people who just brought their stuff on Wednesday rather than you chasing them on Thursday you think about them I think I'd add to that as well as a manager it's it's being open and gracious to the people that aren't delivering it on time the ones that do always miss the deadlines and having that conversation as to why that is and not in an accusatory way you know is this something you find difficult to fit in your day you overload in other places do we need to go through the process again and you're not sure about it we know that colleagues who have um who are diverse benefit from these type of administrative tasks by um what we call body doubling so sitting with somebody else whether that be on zoom or post-to-person to actually set aside a time to do this task with a colleague so it's finding out whether oh actually that that could be a barrier to this task being done very few people actually just want to do a bad job and just do it to be annoying some do and that's where we see you know that workplace incivility that's a great example of workplace incivility somebody intentionally not meeting a deadline just to irritate you john but typically unless the you know there's something in the culture that's going that and you'd feel that as a as a larger collective of the team i think if it's just a couple of people here and there it could be something that just isn't clicking rather than they just necessarily choosing to miss the deadlines we're gonna have more of the conversation with nick and john from the nerd journey podcast after this very quick break i think it's probably important in those situations to assume good intentions.

20:24I don't know that I ever thought that people were doing that just to annoy me. Actually, it just never even occurred to me, so maybe I've internalized that, assume good intentions.

20:36If one senses that that is going on, then there's a whole other set of issues that are probably inherent there, including just hostility in the environment in general or instability or other problems going on. So I really do like the idea of grace. The job of the manager isn't to come down on people and yell and scream, you know, or do the equivalent, right? Because that probably isn't really that helpful. You know, take that opportunity to coach and ask if there's, you know, something else going on. Is there something underlying this behavior? I remember having a member of staff who just didn't enjoy the administrative side of their role, were exceptional in every other area.

21:22But this paperwork issue just wasn't, was never top of their priority list. They'd leave it to last minute and they'd missed deadlines to the point where the month end would come. And, you know, there's outcomes that require this paperwork couldn't be counted. I'd sit with them in a one-to-one and I'd kind of say, you know, we're kind of here again and we've tried all these different things. You know, what is it? And she's like, oh, you know how busy I am. I've done this. I've done all these great things. And my breakthrough moment was when I said, I can't make you look good if you're not giving me the outcomes.

21:50I know how great you are. But the people above me, they don't know how great you are. They're just looking at outcomes on a spreadsheet. And that for her was that connection between, oh, I see. You can't make me look good without delivering this. Then just shifted the behavior in her because then she realized it because she didn't want to be doing a bad job. She didn't want to look like she was doing a bad job. so sometimes having those just honest conversations as well that I know it seems annoying but without that we can't get this outcome through and that means I can't shout from the top of the rooftops about what an amazing job you're doing because I see it in every other aspect of your role.

22:25Do you know what's really weird is that's just triggered me now a memory of when I was at school and I must have been about 13 or something doing French I remember the teacher taking me down saying look I know you're good at French you're better than most of the people in the class at French, but you don't do the homework. So how can I possibly grade you better than anyone else if you don't put decent homework in? And I was like, oh, got a good point. How else can she prove I'm good? And I think I ended up getting an A in French or something that year from that teacher. Now, two things. First of all, that was like 36 years ago.

22:58And still, I remember distinctly. And secondly, I bet she said that to everyone, but it worked. In both of those examples, the person giving the feedback, the manager, the teacher, was showing the person on the other side that they wanted them to do well. They made it safe for that person and let them know, I'm on your side. I'm cheering for you, but you're in control of where it goes from here. Sort of like there's nothing more I can do on my side. Maybe not saying it like that, but that's the message. Absolutely. Like you see championing them. What a great role of management. You want to be a great manager, champion your people, celebrate them, you know, show off their achievements and let them know, as you said, that you are on their side and you want to show off their achievements.

23:50Because that as a manager makes me look great. If my team are smashing it, then I'm doing a great job too. We're all on the same side. we're all going to win together. I think it's having that, yeah, having that conversation. I love that. I love that. Imagine sitting down with your boss and they said to you, I'm on your side. I want to celebrate everything you do. Oh, you'd be on air for the rest of the day after a conversation like that. And even if you don't have a great manager, I think a lot of people think that in order for me as part of a 25 person team to be amazing and get all the things I want, then other people have to lose.

24:23I have to win and other people have to lose in order for me to win. But like Leanne said, if everyone, if everyone on the team or the majority of the team were like, let's really produce some incredible work. Let's really, let's up our SLA. Let's do whatever it is that's the metric. As many of you's possible work together, we all look great. It's not a zero-sum game, is it? No, it's not. Even if it's a zero-sum game, you can take it out of some other team.

24:52Or even your competitors in the marketplace, right? Even better. Even better. I really like that insight of coaching and laying it out and saying, hey, I'm on your side. And the phrase, help me help you, was kind of ruined by that movie, Jerry Maguire. But maybe it's not a cliche anymore. That movie's maybe 20 years old and people don't remember it. But if that line is delivered with honesty and compassion, then I think that that can be very effective. We were talking to a guy called Jeff, what's Joey's actor's surname? LeBlanc. Jeff LeBlanc. Jeff LeBlanc. And he's done a study on kindness in leadership.

25:34And we spoke maybe for about six or eight minutes on Ted Lasso. I don't know if he watched it or anything or come across it. He thinks that that is the way that every manager should be. He thinks that every manager should watch the entire series from end to end. And I haven't watched it all. I've watched the first two seasons. He said that Ted Lasso is the perfect manager because he brings humility, kindness, thoughtfulness, but then he won't give up on people. For those people who aren't in psychology and those people who are just like, I just want some kind of like thing to hang this, hang this whole idea of a great manager on, watch Ted Lasso and see what happens.

26:09That is so interesting. Huh. I've never seen it. I guess I need to watch it now. I think you would love it, Nick. The optimism and maybe investment in the process of improving the team as opposed to the outcome of winning was something that I took away. But that was maybe reinforcing my bias. You know, I always love being told that what I believe is right. Well, there's a very, very good psychologist that believes that too. Yes, there you go. Is there a secondary theme in everything we just talked about in that feedback, that conversation, help me help you, or I'm a champion for you, of encouraging the individual contributor to sort of be an entrepreneur of their own reputation within the company and even outside it?

27:00An entrepreneur of your own reputation. What a phenomenal turn of phrase that is. So just make sure I've understood what you're saying there. You're saying that Nick just doesn't like to use the word, uh, owning your own brand. Well, I definitely don't. No, that's a real thing. That's definitely true. Like it's sort of like nails on a chalkboard when people say personal brand, it's just, ah, it just makes my skin crawl. I don't know why it just does. Seriously though, like the entrepreneurial spirit, you know, I want to start something up. I want to do well. I want to solve problems. maybe that is something we could apply to our own reputation and and making sure that it's strong there is a sort of an opposite to that i'm saying that if someone is an entrepreneur then they don't like taking instruction from anyone and therefore it might be a little bit more difficult i think though that that's just like the sort of like the opposite side of it i do think it's a good turn of phrase you've said something i've never thought about before and i think i don't want to talk about it just off the top of my head because I don't know what I'm talking about.

28:04But I do think that surely everybody wants, you know, like Dan said, most people want to do a good job. Most people want to be recognized for doing a good job. Is it not as simple as what you've been saying and Leanne's been saying of just going, well, what does a good job look like? Let me just strive to do that every single day. And then all the hacks and tricks and, you know, building your internal brand up through an organization or entrepreneur, it doesn't matter because people just go, Bob, you know what? He always delivers a day early and it's always exceptional work. And you know what?

28:36If he's got a problem or someone's got a problem on a Friday afternoon, he'll drop what he's doing, go over and help them and then go back and finish his work. Be more Bob. Is that oversimplifying? I don't think you're oversimplifying. What I like about this thought is that it gives us back an element of control in a work environment that at the moment feels like we're very much lacking control. In terms of those more introspective questions which are perfect questions for anybody who is currently feeling unsafe at work fearful of losing their job or who have recently been laid off is going through that introspection of what type of professional do I want to be what does meaningful work look like to me what I want to be remembered for what do I want to be known for what work makes me proud who am I as a person what are my values is it that I'm kind and that's central to my management style is it that I want to work with people who are smarter than me is it that I believe in equity and I want to help celebrate the voice of underrepresented groups in our society it's such a wonderful moment to actually think about what do I want work to mean to me and in that will come an intentionality around the behaviors you enact and the way you operate in the world in your workplace that you will craft that whatever you want to call it that brand that presence that that bob as you said but I think it's a wonderful time to to do that introspection and think about exactly what it is that you want to do how you want to do it where you want to do it and with that yeah that that intentionality will will trickle over over time and yeah in a world of uncertainty what a wonderful way to feel like we're gaining taking some control back so in the in the spirit of that intention being more bob there's nothing more true when you're running a podcast that has to have a specific theme.

30:27You make it based on the audience, based on what you want to say to the world, what you want to put out there. And as a podcaster or content creator of any time, of any kind, sometimes your focus changes over time because you refine and crystallize who you want to be and the message you want to send out into the world. So being that both of you are experienced podcast hosts, Can you give us a perspective on how your show's thesis, crystallization or focus has changed over time and what you've learned from it, even about what culture is and isn't? when we started truth lies and work it was very much about helping business owners and leaders embed best practice in environments that didn't have that support internally so didn't have organizational psychologists maybe didn't have even hr professionals and that intention is still very much at the core of the show but how it's morphed over time has been very much in line with the chaos for lack of a better word that we've seen the world of work go through and one of the big changes in that was actually us moving to two episodes a week so in in our second episode um that we launched our weekly episode we called this week in work because we wanted to call out the elephant in the room that nobody seemed to be pointing at that it wasn't okay for the jamie diamonds of the world to scream and rant to his genzas about about how you know slacking they are it's not okay to make tens of thousands of layoffs in a blanket email that we saw from Elon Musk.

32:03Those practices aren't okay and it has a serious impact on the human experience but also organizational effectiveness and success. So for us we started this week in work and it's mainly three segments that we've settled into is looking at the news stories of the week. So we had one recently that we got some great feedback on around BrewDog which is a company in the UK that mates fear they've had a very problematic culture for the last two years open letters from previous and current employees calling out fear of culture um all the ways that they're being discriminated against um not treated fairly nothing's changed that was over the series of two three years that a letter would come out each year and they announced last week that they're training 200 mental health first aiders to improve well-being and it's like that's not right that's not okay and that's not how you fix a toxic culture for a whole host of reasons if only that that's that's not what mental health first days are for they're not there for prevention they're for a point of crisis helping a person in a in a really difficult moment but you're also again putting the emphasis on the individual to try and solve a systemic organizational problem and that is just not okay so it's calling out bad practice like that that is being promoted in in mainstream news that this it's a great thing an organization is doing it's not and this is why so that's kind of where we talk about this week in terms of the news we also highlight fresh voices or hot takes from people who maybe aren't as well established in their industry but have something great to say so it's giving them spaces for that we've had occupational psychology students on there we've had brand new entrepreneurs on there yeah people who've got something interesting to say or a cause that they want to push forward so we had somebody talking recently about pain equality and how the business they're setting up is helping to support that in terms of providing extra care support.