232. CEO scandals, September resets and 1000 days of ChatGPT. PLUS! The rise of rage-baiting, with Vanessa Judelman

0:02Coming up this week in work. Would you sack your CEO over a secret office romance? Well, Leslie just did and it's not the affair that caused the backlash, it was the secrecy. So when does a relationship become a trust issue and what can business leaders learn from the fallout? Also this week, it's been just over a thousand days since ChatGPT was unleashed on the world. So is it killing jobs or transforming workplaces or quietly doing both while we're still debating how to use it? And in the workplace surgery, are we overvaluing experience and ignoring skills? One hiring manager says the best candidates keep getting overlooked and wants to know how to challenge a process that favours CVs over capability.

0:43This is Truth, Lies and Work. The award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture. Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a chartered occupational psychologist. And my name is Al, and I'm a business owner. And together we help organisations build amazing workplace cultures. So let's get right into this after a very quick word from our beautiful, lovely sponsors. Okay, welcome back, welcome back. It is Leanne's favourite time of week. Which we haven't done for ages! It's been a minute, as the kids say.

1:14It's been a minute. Yeah, so it's probably been about six weeks since we've done a proper this week in work. So without further ado, even though there has been much ado, so what do we do now? Cue the jingle. There we go. Cue the jingle. What have you seen on the interwebs this week? Well, there was one scandalo from the summer that none of us avoided. It was a Coldplay kiss camp chaos. My goodness. If you have been living under a rock and didn't hear about that, a tech CEO and his head of HR were caught mid-cuddle at a Coldplay concert and then were swiftly out of a job and a couple of marriages from one I hear.

1:49But while that story made headlines for the drama, what happened this week at Nestle could have actually more serious implications for leadership and workplace culture in general. Al, have you heard about this? That Nestle have just fired its global CEO. No, I haven't. And Nestle are famously devoid of any kind of scandal whatsoever. They're a very clean living. For those of you who are under the age of 40, back in the 70s and 80s, there was a big scandal about Nestle, but not about their CEO. So what happened? so i should have looked at how to pronounce this lauren freix f-r-e-i-x-e you're good at french lauren frier frier i don't know i'm just making sure lauren lauren we're on first name basis um so yeah he was he was sacked with immediate effect um because of a relationship he had with his direct subordinate which obviously created a clear conflict of interest but apparently that's not why he was sacked it was because of his failure to disclose it same time laurent throughout has denied the relationship first investigation found nothing going wrong then they had a second investigation led by outside counsel and the complaints were upheld so hold on just understand this so this laurent was having a little bit of an affair or something with someone as a subordinate yeah somebody complained through the whistle blowing process right and then they were like internally yeah no worries and then they got someone else to look at it externally went actually yeah no there is a problem exactly exactly um but what confuses me when i was reading so many different parts about what confuses me is that laurent denies the relationship throughout right so i don't know whether that's the type of relationship was or i don't know but he just denies it um so yeah he's been outed nestle no severance no nothing he was being in a top job for a year.

3:40Previous to that, he spent 40 years in Nestle. So apparently the employee involved wasn't on the executive board, but reportedly benefited professionally. First with a rapid promotion in Latin America and then with a move to the head office. But apparently the official word from the board is it wasn't necessarily the relationship that they took issue with. It was a lack of disclosure. I did not have sexual relations with that person. Yeah, indeed. And in that, and not surprising, in the wake of Andy Burnham as well that we saw at Coldplay Concert, Shares did take a hit. So Nestle scrambled pretty quickly to get him out and name a replacement.

4:21Yeah, it's not the first time we've seen it. Obviously, we saw it with Andy Burnham. We've seen it from BP's Bernard Looney stepping down after admitting he'd had been. Sorry, that's a great name. Bernard, Bernard Looney. Yeah, after he hadn't been fully drunk about workplace relationships, plural. and then we also saw Steve Easterbrook at McDonald's fired, fined and made to return his severance package after misleading the board about three internal relationships. And I bet his defence was, well, they were loving it. Oh, sick. That's not going to make it in, is it? Sorry, sorry. Yes, I'm actually trivialising something which is quite important.

5:03Just before you go on, I'm sorry to interrupt you there with obviously terrible, terrible stuff. But I'm watching The Morning Show. You suggested to me. Oh, yeah, I love The Morning Show. And so now I can't look at anything without looking through the lens of The Morning Show. If you've seen it, then it's very similar to what we're just talking about here. And so now, like, everything seems The Morning Show. I'm just imagining Steve Carell playing it out. Sorry, you were in the middle of something. Steve Carell. Such a good show. Yeah, but you said that, as if he was also been involved in some of this.

5:34because you know it's just a story, don't you? It's TV. It's not real. Allegedly. Allegedly. Well, you heard it here first. Anyway, what do we think? As the man in the room, is this an issue? Is it an imbalance of power that shouldn't be tolerated in organisations? Is it just around the secrecy? What does it say about leadership and how to hold leaders accountable in 2025? Look, I don't know. I've never been the CEO of Nestle. I know that you didn't know what I did for the first half of my life, but it wasn't it wasn't being CEO of Nestle. I don't know. I mean if you have a relationship then you're supposed to go and disclose it to HR aren't you?

6:11Is that not what you're supposed to do? And would that not be the most sensible thing to do? I don't see why you wouldn't do that. But then again I don't know what the internal politics are because maybe if you do go and disclose it then HR go no problem at all. The door shuts and they start typing on your record. I don't know. I don't know how that works. My mother used to say to me just never lie. If you get caught out just go yeah yeah it was me. George Washington, there's a whole story about George Washington I think he said something like Father I cannot lie, was I who cut down the cherry tree Now we are going back to back to back to Not the cherry tree Fucking cherry tree, I mean That cherry tree at that age That would have been about 300 years old now I think that cherry tree But no old Georgie, he said no I'm going to cut it down I think the whole point is that Surely you should tell the truth I don't know the internal politics of whether you disclose it or not.

7:03I think this is probably a good time, actually, before we go back and we talk maybe more about the psychology of this, to disclose to our listeners that we are in a relationship in the workplace. So if you hadn't heard that before, listener, then I think it's important you should know that just in case there's a secondary external audit of our organisation, the Podcast Towers. Indeed, indeed. Yeah, to be fair, our relationship started before we went into business together. That is true. That's different. That is true. But all of the employees here know about it. yes both of them do and even our dogs know about it and they're not really employed i see them as valued members of the team yeah obviously every organization is going to have its own policy if you are a small business and you don't have a policy i advise you to we talked about this on the surgery actually before i think somebody had some issues with um with personal relationships at work it depends i think you know what i think the thing is it's one thing if you are a manager in a small business and you fall in love with your colleague or your teammate I just think it's quite the other when you're the global CEO of a multi-billion dollar business and the only partner you can find just happens to be your subordinate who you can do some favors for it's just I think you have to hold yourself to a higher standard at that point in terms of you know it's a public company isn't it you've got shareholders and and all sorts in terms of governance and I just I just question why any CEO would put themselves into a point where they're in a relationship and having to disclose it I just I just don't and I'm quite romantic but I just can't help but think there's a better way to go about it actually this could be an absolute power struggle and there's lots of ego in in high powered leadership positions we know that in terms of personality we know that in terms of behavior we know by the number of men who get caught out in high powered positions because it goes to their head or somewhere else on their body.

8:57So I just think that it's just so problematic because to everybody else it undermines the trust in the organisation in terms of how decisions are made. We call that as a psychologist procedural justice and it's a big aspect of employee engagement. If you don't have procedural justice then you'll know anecdotally if you've worked in an environment that isn't fair and people are being treated differently you're not there very very long and of course it has massive impacts on psychological safety be able to speak up the fact that this was through a whistleblower in the first investigation now nothing in the second one oh it's so problematic i just think if you're a senior leader unless this is head over heels this is the love of my life i'm going to be with them forever just don't if the heart wants what the heart wants and if the heart really wants someone who work there and you're the global ceo then why doesn't one of you step down now this is problematic Well, indeed, because who's stepping down?

9:49Well, yes, exactly. The person who has$20 million a year or the person who doesn't. And if it is true love, then do it all above board. Go to HR, be very transparent about it. Make sure that person doesn't report into you or HR will handle it, however. It needs to be handled. And if it doesn't work out and you do break up, don't fall in love again with somebody else in the same company. Because that's just going to undermine everything that you said initially, you know? Yeah, exactly. And unless they do have like thousands and thousands of employees, but still there are plenty more fish in the sea.

10:19Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Plenty more Kit Kats in the break room. Is that Nestle? Very good. Very good. Thank you. So the key message here is the CEO of Nestle, just take a break. Very good. Anyway, is it about time you asked me what I saw? Yeah, what have you seen this week, Kev? So as I said before, I alluded to before, it's been around about a thousand days since the launch of ChatGPT. Now this isn't just my nerdiness of actually having a big calendar and marking off the days. It was an article in, let me have a look, it was in cityam.com, that very famous news application, by a guy called Henrik Landgren.

10:56He sounds maybe Germanic, so I'm sorry, Henrik, if I got that wrong. But it's a thousand days. So he basically looked at it and said, right, what's happened? Has it been the apocalypse that we thought it was? I mean, we'll use ChatGPT for funny images. I know that we've done some funny things. I tried to get ChatGPT. I was talking, who was I talking to? It might be my brother, I think, on WhatsApp. And I was, because I've got an intolerance to eggs. And I won't go into exactly how that intolerance manifests. But I asked ChatGPT, I sent a picture of me. And I said, please put me eating a Spanish tortilla full of eggs on the toilet and make it photorealistic.

11:35And ChatGPT said, no, I'm afraid I can't do that. He did say I can make a cartoon version, which was actually a bit more accurate, I think, to be honest. Anyway, so moving aside from that, that's a little overshare. What have you used ChatGPT for in the last thousand days, Lee? I use it to help me put the show notes together for the podcast. I use it to translate journals that are in different languages. I use it to give me a quick summary of something. So, for example, I had somebody today that was like, oh, I just need like a two line explanation of the coaching program offering is a prize. to listeners of another podcast.

12:13And I had like a 200 word. I just went, can you just give me this in one to two sentences? And it was done and I sent it off. And it was lovely. So yeah, lots of things like that. Administrative type, copy, low-level copy, writing kind of stuff. Yeah, absolutely. We quite often use it for, I mean, I use it more than Googling these days, I think. You do. Now, the question is, in terms of the workplace, Has it caused this sort of unemployment tsunami that everyone said it was going to be? Well, kind of the answer, supposedly, is yes or no. Because first of all, it has made some work a lot easier, as Leanne alluded to before.

12:49We can do stuff in days or minutes that would take us weeks or a whole department to do. There are fancy people out there. We haven't done it yet, but there are fancy people out there who create agents that hand over work to each other. So you can do things like build an entire virtual marketing department. I've seen people on Twitter, ex-twix, who basically have created this scraping thing where they'll scrape an idea from YouTube, a trending idea from YouTube. They will then plummet into something else, which will create a script. Then they'll plummet into, I think it's called Eleven Labs, which will then create a voiceover.

13:21And then it will go into some stock image and create some back stock image and then just spit out a TikTok ready to be uploaded. And they're doing like one a minute. Also, I didn't know this existed, but there are TikTok farms. Did you know about this? tiktok farms yeah no so there are places which have got like 10 000 phones with robotic arms that are basically just swiping on tiktoks and what you can do is if you can pay to put your to have them go onto your account and just swipe up and down and watch your videos over and over and over again to for engagement but it's not engagement is it no of course it's not it's cheating which is again which is well coming down to the chat gpt because um you yes you can use it for what the stuff you were talking about there.

14:03And I'll talk about Notebook LM. But some people are using it a little bit to cheat. They're trying to get their people to do, get Chachapiti or Claude or whatever to do their entire job, which is kind of going against the point, I think. The employee is trying to get Chachapiti. Yes, I'm sorry, yes. Okay, right. I'm away from engagement farming now, from TikTok farms. I've got a bit terrible. All over the place.

14:24It's as professional as you remember, listener. So the question is, is it eliminating jobs? And... Is it? Yes and no. it's eliminating those jobs which are things like just data entry it's eliminating those jobs where someone said go and find me um a quote that says this on the internet it's eliminating jobs like oh i'm just going to go and upload something to um to excel i need to go and like enter that all day that is but we all seem to have moved up a little step because because for the majority of people that's not their whole job they're able to say to chat gpt here here's some unordered data Paste it in.

14:59Can you turn it into an Excel file for me? And then 10 seconds later, they've got an Excel file. So they're not spending the hour putting everything into an Excel file. They're spending that time. They can step away and go and do something else, which is really, really cool. Lee, what are your thoughts so far on it? Do you think, do you think, check, that AI is going to take over all jobs? No. Why? I think, I think it's a question of, do I think AI is going to take over all jobs? No. do I think AI will have the capability to take over the majority of jobs? Yes. Right. But I think there's going to be element of organisations choosing to be human first.

15:36We're trying to be human centric, but I think human first might become a thing. I think just the way it is now, I don't trust CHAPGPT entirely in terms of accuracy. I find mistakes, hallucinations are a big thing that's being talked about now where you ask it to fact check its work and it's still wrong and it just makes things up and you're absolutely right and i think it what that's what he always says to you you're absolutely right when you're talking to sake yeah even claude today i was like you okay like i've asked you to correct this very specific things and you're telling me it's done but it's not it's like you're absolutely right i'm so sorry let me do that again and then still didn't do it i was like seriously honey you okay so i i don't know i just don't trust it them i certainly wouldn't trust it with any data that i'm working with in terms of organizations in terms of that collation to be able to then check it is going to take even longer so current capability no i don't think so no and i think also what's really cool is because everyone's got ai no one's got ai yeah so it's democratized the way that we sort of we can talk online and create content so it means that you either have to be very good at content or very human i think this is whereas i mean it's doing things like i've read um there's a london biotech that raised 2.8 million in funding with just two employees and the rest of his AI.

16:53Very cool. But then on the flip side, there's a couple of people who've tried to do AI therapy and then very quietly and quickly shut it down thanks to the backlash on it. So I think basically what this article seems to be saying is that yes, it's going to change work. In fact, let me just read the quote. It says, the question isn't whether AI will change work, but whether you'll lead that change or follow it. And I think this is the cool thing. AI is brilliant at taking on the grunt work, but it's even more important to be personal and even more important to be human because you'll stand out by being human.

17:27Agreed. Anyway, what else have you seen, my love? Changing the tone slightly. 19 ways to improve your life according to science. I have actually talked about this article before on the podcast, but ages ago, probably like a year, maybe even 18 months ago. And I kind of thought it was a nice time to bring it back because September kind of feels like a little bit of a reset. doesn't it for a lot of people kids back autumn starting um so yeah so i thought it'd be a nice time to to take some take some look at some ways to maybe reinvent how we're feeling about our lives and reframe how we're feeling about our lives and maybe things we can do to improve our lives over the next few months according to science so i've got all 19 and i'm thinking you can just pick a number out and i'll tell you what it is number eight number eight yeah find a garden to benefit from a garden a literal garden or yes so this comes from an eco-psychologist bet you've not heard that before theodore rozak believed that we each have an ecological unconsciousness embedded within the core of our minds and when exposed to the natural environment we can harvest the benefits of health sanity and contentment and the good news is you don't have to travel far to get the benefits whether it's your local park or your own back garden beautiful what was that what was this person's name theodore rosak have you heard of post-nominal determination yes mr rose and his name's mr rose and he's an ecological psychologist an eco-psychologist yeah he's just made that up hasn't he that doesn't exist what an eco-psychologist i think it does i think it does yeah um we've heard about this before having like forest bathing touching grass as the kids like to say we got so much feedback didn't someone say it she is horrendous when we put that clip on YouTube yeah yeah and you were just taking the mickey out of it but yeah seriously but yeah anyway people hate me on YouTube people hate me on YouTube what so choose another number can I choose another number number 14 14 rediscover simple pleasures oh like you you're a simple pleasure I am I am simple I'm sometimes a pleasure not always no it can often be the everyday things that bring us the most joy by rediscovering the power of mindfulness or discovering the power of mindfulness we can can reconnect with simple everyday pleasures so barney dunn um who was on the psych crunch podcast which is from the bps um talked about that a lot more in terms of mindfulness we also talked about mindfulness with the fabulous dr audrey tang she talked about it was it last christmas or the christmas yeah is it that long ago almost two years ago yeah wow Wow.

20:03So yes, anyway. Live nostalgia there for Leanne, not audio form. Yeah, what's your simple pleasure, El? I like making things. I bought myself a few electric tools over the summer. When we were building this podcast studio, I bought myself a little electric saw and a few things. I like that. I always think a simple pleasure is where you look up and you go, oh my God, it's tea time or something. And you're doing something, Something, you know, not only playing computer games necessarily, although there's nothing wrong with that. So my simple pleasure is that I also really like just sitting there and staring out into the garden.

20:39You do do that sometimes. It's bringing the two together, you see, number eight and number 16 or whatever. I like sitting and just looking in the garden. I like that. You do. What's your simple pleasure? My most recent simple pleasure is Sudoku. Yes, you've been proper boomer, haven't you, on your iPad? Yeah, I've really got into that over summer. because I think it's a really good way to if your mind because I think because we had quite stressful summer with lots going on I find it quite a nice way to kind of keep my mind busy and keep it quiet without just watching rubbish on your phone do you know what I mean yeah doom scrolling yeah totally agree I love it so uh so listeners if you can imagine Leanne with little little half moon glasses perched on the edge of her edge of her nose uh her hair up in a bun doing sudoku on her on her iPad that's what Leanne's gonna look like in 30 years time That's what I look like now.

21:26Please, you should be going to a break. Do you want more? Okay, let's go for number one. Number one. Don't stress about not feeling happy. This is a good one. So it says, we're often bombarded with surveys that announce where the happiest place to live is or which habits we should be adopting to be happier. But researchers in Canada have discovered that actively pursuing happiness can lead participants to think of time as being scarce, which made them unhappy. they noted this finding adds depth to the growing body of work suggesting that the pursuit of happiness can ironically undermine well-being letting go of the must do better at being happy goal may actually improve feelings after all yeah i think happiness can be can be a problematic metric anyway can't it you know happiness is a state it comes and goes contentment satisfaction action, fulfillment, meaning, perhaps better things to pursue.

22:22Yeah, totally agree. That's lovely. That's lovely. So if people want to hear all 19, how do they... Yeah, I'll leave a link in the show notes and you can read it. It's an article from the BPS, which is very, very good. Excellent. Right, guys, we're going to go for a very quick break. When we come back, we have the hot take. Remember those? We haven't had one of those for 20 years. Hot take. And then we've got my favourite time of the week, which is the World Famous Weekly Wear-Best Surgery. We're up with your questions to Leanne. did i get it right leanne you did lovely see you in a second welcome back it is time for our hot take those honest expert perspectives that maybe make us rethink what we know about the world of work today we've got a new word go on what's the new word rage baiting rage baiting rage baiting okay now i'm acting like i don't know what it is but i'm pretty sure it's when someone makes says something like kind of provocative or sarcastic and it's designed to annoy them not to get not to start like a conversation but to get a reaction yes poking the bear poking the bear there you go that's a much better way of saying sorry sorry Vanessa I don't think Vanessa coined the term rage baiting but she is here to talk about it she is yeah you you know what you probably heard of rage baiting because it's talked about a lot particularly in terms of over the internet and we kind of assume that it's it's an internet problem it's the headlines that that yeah make you want to poke someone's eye out um but it's also happening in offices too in meetings in messages and in day-to-day conversations and it's not just annoying it's corrosive because when someone uses language to provoke or belittle it creates a power imbalance and people stop speaking up and trust disappears that psychological safety the word we all love know just it just isn't there and that's what today's guest Vanessa Yordleman wants to challenge she has worked with thousands of leaders helping them move from reactive to respected and she's noticed a pattern too many managers are confusing sharpness for strength and it's damaging teams let's meet Vanessa so my hot take is rage baiting so my 19 year old son taught me this term and what rage baiting means is when you do or say something that will intentionally provoke somebody and I'm seeing way too much rage baiting in the workplace.

24:39So let me give you a very quick example. So my son, this is a really harmless example, my son hates eggs and avocados. So the other day I said to him, Aaron, good morning. I made you some eggs and avocados for breakfast. Okay, so that's my rage bait. I mean, I know he hates it. I'm intentionally provoking him. His eyeballs, you know, flew across his face up into the upper sockets of his head. The groan was large. My laughter was enormous. I just thought it was the funniest thing on the planet. Right. So that was an obvious rage bait. But when he taught me that term, I started seeing it in the workplace.

25:18And it's a big no-no because it has a big impact on culture. I can give you a recent example of a client of mine who's a very senior sales executive and excellent at what she does, very savvy, just really, really good at her job, started in a new organization. And she was telling me that a couple of weeks in, she was at a board meeting. And one of the executives, she had said, somebody said to her, you know, you're new to the organization. I'd love to get a fresh perspective from you. Tell us some of your thoughts. So she gave a few comments on things that she thought were going really well and things that she thought could improve.

25:57And somebody said something like, oh, there's the new person trying to make changes without really understanding the context. So immediately, that was a rage bait. So immediately she felt shut down. She felt unsafe to contribute. And she stayed silent for the rest of the meeting. So what happens when you're rage baited is psychological safety goes away and trust is diminished. And so people don't feel safe to speak up. And that has a huge impact on organizational culture. And I see it a lot. And I see it a lot on executive teams, right, which people might find surprising. But I think when people and I often wonder why, you know, and it could be sometimes it's control.

26:39Sometimes you just see very dominant people sitting on an executive team. You know, they've been dominant their whole life. They like power and control. And there's nothing wrong with that as long as you don't overuse it. And so they feel powerful when they belittle other people, quite frankly. So sometimes I think it's intentional. Sometimes I actually don't think it's intentional. I think it's lack of self-awareness. So I actually had a situation a couple of years ago where an executive, a president of a technology company who I admire and respect is a really smart guy. was making some very sarcastic comments to his senior team.

27:17And I had to give him feedback. And I said, it's not good. Because to your point, it doesn't provide psychological safety and it shuts people down. He had no idea. He thought he was being funny. And sometimes it's sarcasm, right? People just think, oh, it's a good laugh. No, it's not a good laugh. It really shuts down trust on your team. And once that trust starts to erode, it's so difficult to get back, isn't it? It really is. It really is. And if you if you think about trust, every relationship has a trust account. Right. So if you think about a piggy bank, right, every relationship has like this piggy bank, this trust account.

27:54So when you as a leader say something that's respectful, you're putting a deposit in your trust account with that person. When you say something that is, you know, when you demonstrate loyalty to that person, trust in your deposit in your trust account. When, for example, you are accountable to another person, deposit in your trust account. But when you rage bait, when you say something that another person feels demeaned by, what you're doing is you're making a withdrawal from your trust account. So some people will say, oh, Vanessa, this person, you know, we have a good relationship. And so I'm sarcastic with them.

28:30They're sarcastic with me. And I say, listen, if your trust account with that person has a lot of deposits, right? And it's full and you make one sarcastic comment because you have a good relationship. Listen, it's going to be a withdrawal, but the relationship's not going to crumble. But what you have to be very careful of is if you make too many withdrawals, then when you on top of that rage bait, it's another withdrawal. that's when the relationship starts to really crumble. As you say, there's, I'm sure, lots of leaders that don't realize that they are rage baiting in this way and need it showing to them.

29:04And that speaks to emotional intelligence, right? And emotional intelligence is one of the core competencies for leaders, right? What emotional intelligence means is I understand my emotions, I can name them. And I understand how they impact me and the people around me. So in my executive coaching practice, I'm actually coaching somebody who's a partner in her firm, in her accounting firm. And a lot went down in the pandemic. So a lot of withdrawals were made from the organization, the trust account. She's so angry now. She has so much anger. And what's happening is she's starting to get negative feedback.

29:46So somebody gave her feedback on her tone. And so I said to her, you know what? You have so much anger. Your tone probably is inappropriate. So you got to work on yourself first. So we've got the people that are self-aware, the people that are very angry. Is there a group of people who just want to be jerks? You know, I do feel like that's a small percentage of people. I do. You know, I've been an executive coach for 20 years and I've probably come across two people who just are jerks. I find, to be honest, most people do lack self-awareness. I call those people who are unconscious. They're completely unconscious of their behavior and how it's impacting people.

30:30Now, part of my job as an executive coach is to help people develop consciousness, to be super conscious of their behavior, especially if you're in a leadership role, because you as a leader make or break people's experience at work, right? So we've all had bad leaders. We've all, many of us have left jobs because we had a terrible leader. So you have a big responsibility as a leader because you make or break people's experience at work. So what I find is when I give people feedback and say to them, like this leader, I gave feedback to her, I said, your tone probably does suck and you got to own that.

31:04So let's just be accountable for it. And she was mortified, but she's like, you know what? You're right. And coaching is such a effective way, isn't it? of helping somebody with this self-reflection and building that self-awareness. If people are wanting to engage a coach as a coach, how do you recommend they go about that process? So I think when you engage a coach, when you engage a coach, it's very much about finding someone that's a good fit for you. So when someone reaches out to me and says, Vanessa, I'm interested in coaching with you, I always book a 30-minute meeting with them first. And I say, listen, before you invest a penny, let's talk.

31:46I want to tell you about my approach. Every coach has a different personality, a different approach. My approach is very tool based because that's what I like. I'm very action oriented. I set goals when I coach with people. Some coaches have a psychological or a psychology based background. I'm not a psychologist. That's not my approach. Some people prefer that. Some people don't like it. So I always say, if you're looking to work with a coach, book 30 minutes with them. Ask them, what's your approach? What's your background? What's your education? I would really recommend you work with someone who's a certified coach.