233. The 1st HR leader who didn't carry a gun: Meet Amy Bouque, Chief People Officer at Kelly Services

0:00Picture this. You're in your mid-20s. You're walking into a Detroit manufacturing plant for your first day as head of labor relations. Your job involves firing at least one person every single week. And you discover that you are a very, very different person to the person who did this job before. There was about a thousand UAW workers and every week about an average five people got fired for absenteeism or performance or fill in the blank, you know, related issues. And I didn't know getting into that space. One, I was the first woman to ever occupy that role. And two, most importantly, I was the first one to not carry a gun.

0:35That's Amy Boak, chief people officer at Kelly Services. And yes, you heard that right. Everyone before her in that role carried a firearm to work. Instead, I had to rely on armed security frequently to walk me to my car because there were individuals who were very disappointed with my decisions. Today, Amy's giving us one of the most honest interviews we've ever had and what it really takes to lead people the right way. Amy tells a story after story from her 30-year career in HR, including how her then-boss reacted to a heartbreaking miscarriage, why a naked CEO stood on a table, and how Amy dealt with a literally crappy situation in a work toilet, as well as plenty of practical advice for leaders and business owners just like you.

1:16These are the confessions most C-suite executives would never dare to share publicly, for Amy is not like most C-suite executives. Hello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture. brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a charter occupational psychologist. My name is Al. I'm a business owner. And we are here to help you simplify the science of work. So today we're getting something rare. We're getting brutal honesty from the C-suite. Amy Boak has spent 30 years in HR, rising from those terrifying days in the Detroit factories to becoming chief people officer of a$5 billion global workforce solutions company, Fancy.

2:01And unlike most executives who give you polished talking points, Amy's about to share the messy reality, including investigations into phantom poopers, naked Barbies in compromising positions, and the moment a mentor told her that her team couldn't stand her. So if you're a leader who's ever worried about getting it wrong, or you're a small business owner wondering how to build culture without endless resources, Amy's confessions are about to make you feel a lot less alone. After this quick break, we'll hear how a devastating personal loss changed Amy's entire leadership philosophy and why she was the first person in her role who didn't need armed protection.

2:38My name is Amy Boak. I am privileged to serve as Kelly Services Chief People Officer here in the United States. And Kelly Services is a global workforce solutions provider headquartered here in Troy that connects talented people with companies and needs of skills. It was founded 79 years ago next month, and we're roughly a$5 billion organization. We're the pioneers of the staffing business. I want to kick things off. Almost 30 years in HR, was there a point where, like an inflection point in your career or anything that stood out was like, yeah, things started to change here? You know, I, unlike a lot of professional human resources people, I started my career in the manufacturing spaces, in the labor relations.

3:27And in the 90s, right, I was a young, suburban, sort of, you know, middle class, white young woman working in an inner city Detroit plant. And I was doing the labor relations, which meant every week on Mondays and Thursdays, we did termination hearing. There was about 1 ,000 UAW workers. And every week, about an average five people got fired for absenteeism or performance or fill in the blank, you know, related issues. And it was my responsibility to ferret out those decisions. Should we give the person a second chance? Should we keep the termination? And I didn't know getting into that space.

4:06One, I was the first woman to ever occupy that role. And two, most importantly, I was the first one to not carry a gun. I didn't have a permit to carry the gun. And instead, I had to rely on armed security frequently to walk me to my car because there were individuals who were very disappointed with my decisions. And even the union would say, hey, Amy, I'm a little worried about that. but what it taught me and in sort of in those moments you know it taught me about humanity about connection you know there was a moment where I was working with a plant manager and and that and actually the next plant which is the Louisville Kentucky plant where I learned a lot about the relationships and even though we could be in these contentious and sometimes adversarial relationship we could care about the other we could demonstrate and care and connect and we started to do things outside of the room.

4:58And so what I learned was, you know, that connection and that my husband jokingly calls it the meeting before the meeting to plan the meeting, which I'm fine. It's funny, but also true. I learned that we didn't go into any of those conversations before pre-agreeing how we were going to see it play out. And it was almost like we went in and we just sort of got into role and they argued and I argued and then we negotiated and then we settled, but it was already done because we were working through those outside of the room. And that connection, that relationship, that caring and investment has carried me through my career.

5:35I spent about a dozen years in manufacturing in that labor and that labor facing role, both as, you know, first the labor lead, but then the HR lead for these large manufacturing plants. And I remember I had a mentor at the time who said, after about 10 years, it's, you know, working in labor can start to change your personality. And it did. I saw it starting to affect my personality. I'm like, I better get out of this. Otherwise, I'm never going to trust another human being again. I have a note down here that there was a particular point that kind of changed the career to trajectory for you. Is that something you feel like you could talk to, talk about?

6:09I would love to. And I'd love to share the advice that that may have hit me hard, but was really great advice. So in 1998, a lifetime ago, after the heartbreaking loss of a pregnancy, I'd been 22 weeks pregnant and really looking forward to welcoming our first child. And I found out that wasn't going to be possible. And I took a little bit of time off work and I came back to the office or back to the plant. And this is when I was still at that Detroit plant. And the plant manager at the time sat me down and he said, I want you to know in my career, He was much older than I. He said, I don't measure people by how they behave when they get what they want.

6:50I measure them by how they behave when they don't get what they want. And I got to tell you, that was like a gut punch at the time. you know, I get that in other spaces, but I didn't get that there. And then I reflected that he was reframing resilience. He was reframing grief and repair and recovery, not as toughness, but also just like how to show up in the midst of loss and deep challenges. and that experience shaped my leadership style both in terms of how I help you know my peers or you know those that work for me reshaping when things don't go the way they want at work but it also helps me to lean in in a more intimate and personal you know human-centered way when things are not going well for them outside of work and it's something I invite your listeners to consider, which is don't be afraid of having a hard conversation.

7:51Don't be afraid of looking someone in the eye that you know is going through a really challenging moment and sit in that same space with them and sit with their humanity. And the connection, the care that gets cultivated in those moments are priceless. So, you know, doors and windows, right? So the door had closed, but a window had opened. The next conversation I had with him a week or two later was that there was a promotional opportunity for me to be considered for out of state. I was too young and too inexperienced for the opportunity, but did he want to put my name in the hat for the opportunity?

8:32And I said, absolutely. And I went home and spoke to my husband. I'm like, how do you feel about moving? And of course I would have much rather been pregnant, but that just wasn't adoption available. And so we went all in. And within six weeks, we had sold our house and we had moved out of state. And I really feel like in some cases, things don't go the way you want, but there's something else on the other side that may never fill that space, but it absolutely is a gift in and of itself. Amy moved and started a new life. But imagine your new boss told you very early on that your new team didn't actually like you very much.

9:08Most executives would never admit that this happened to them. But Amy not only admits it, she says it's the best thing that ever happened to her career. But before we hear that story, let's hear what she thinks might be one of the main challenges of rising up the ranks to the C-suite so quickly. Two thoughts came to my mind. I'd love to share both. The first one is my CEO, Peter Quigley, said, you know, the higher you're the organization. So if it's your founder led or, you know, sort of part of a larger group, more and more gets filtered to you, meaning less and less truth gets spoken to you.

9:46And that you have to look for the truth tellers more intentionally. And you have to welcome truth. And my practice for doing that is when I'm with my team is I always ask them when we're brainstorming ideas and I'm worried that they're just saying yes to me because they're, that we may not be having a fulsome, you know, sort of conversation about something, is I invite them to tell me three reasons why that might fail. Let's talk about it. Like, let's just invite three reasons why this is a bad idea. I think it's a really great practice because it invites, it's a very specific invitation to plan ahead for why something might not work.

10:24And then the other area I was thinking about is this myth that leaders, people are born into being leaders and that there's a certain prototype or personality type, whether or not you do strength finders or desk or film, you know, Myers-Briggs. And I don't think that's true. You know, I do believe that our practice, our habits, you know, our willingness to be vulnerable, sit in discomfort of, you know, receiving feedback, having difficult conversations if there's concerns around somebody's performance makes us good leaders. I certainly, I certainly, I'm certainly not the person I was 30 years ago through a whole lot of practice, self-reflection and really good guidance from mentors and teammates who are willing to say the hard thing to me.

11:10What did Amy 30 years ago do that she doesn't do today? I remember distinctly a moment, probably 2006, 2007, I'd moved out of the manufacturing environment and into a more professional, it was with the utility, but my role with our local utility company, but my role was more of a professional corporate role. And the pace I was moving and the decision-making I was moving was more akin to that of the manufacturing floor, where I made probably 100 decisions a day, 90 of them were good, five were questionable. But the pace I was moving was unfamiliar to the team that was working for me. And they didn't, quite frankly, my leader sat me down and God bless her.

11:51I followed her for a long time and still consider a trusted advisor because she sat me down and she said, Amy, I gotta tell you, the pace that you're moving and the way that you're engaging your team, they respect you. They know you're smart. They know you're capable, but they don't like you and they don't want to work for you. I'm like, oh, like another gut punch, but so grateful for her because all that, all of what I was telling you before about slowing down, investing in the relationships, demonstrating the care, it's because I got it wrong, not because I knew how to do it right. And she was willing to sit me down and say, you're moving too fast.

12:32You're talking too fast. I mean, physically moving too fast, like just the pace in which I was moving my body through the team space was unsettling for the team. And it was really important for me to learn how to match energy, to invest in the care of people to learn about them as humans. And that shifted a lot for me. How important is it that your team likes you as a person? Maybe a do-over card, I wouldn't use the like. Maybe it's the respect. Maybe it's the

13:10admire. We're probably more than like, right? Because it is respect, admire, appreciate, feel seen and heard by and I should probably have used those but I think they're vital skills and in the more and more in which technology disrupts how work gets done core human skills like empathy intellectual curiosity compassion I believe are going to become even more vital than they are today. Amy learned that connection beats command that slowing down beats speed and here's where she drops another bombshell confession She actually calls her team on Sunday sometimes. In the 380 interviews we've done on this podcast, she's the first leader to actually admit this reality.

13:54Let's hear some more confessions after this short break. Welcome back. Let's hear Amy's thoughts on how to build a culture when money is tight, her surprisingly honest take on work-life balance, and what she really thinks about the different generations in the workplace. So let's get down to the businesses where, you know, it's really tough to keep in business. Maybe they've got 25 people. They go, I'd love to give out all these perks like flexible working, work from home. You know, let's make let's make it the best workplace we can be, particularly for the Gen Z's and millennials who demand this.

14:25But financially, I'm struggling here. Is there anything they can do? Years ago, I took an improv class because I was terrible about speaking in public. And, Al, when I when I tell you that story, it's because I learned in improv training. the first thing they teach you is when you're doing improv, you can't reject anything. You have to yes and. And so that's become my mantra in life, yes and. So when you tell me, yes, we have financial challenges, we can't make payroll, we're struggling to, and also how do we care for people? And so for me, it's not a binary. And this idea that how do you make both things be true.

15:06How do you negotiate the messy middle of that challenge of saying, we have financial challenges, and also I know you are. So let's talk about that and negotiate what that might look like. And each organization is going to have different requirements. It might be the physical office space and how present people have to be to care for clients in person versus what can be done after children go to bed and can get picked up in the evenings. And the ability to negotiate that. What I found, if I take it all the way back to the beginning, it's hiring, taking the time to hire and setting expectations and understanding who the person is, right?

15:45Because you need somebody who has the ability to flex with you, right? Because sometimes I'm going to need you to pull a late night or, you know, yesterday I was working on a project and I saw one of my teammates was online. I'm like, any chance I can call you if I promise to stay off camera. And we worked something out on a Sunday, which I said, I don't try to do this very often. But on sometimes the board meetings today, I needed a little help with something. And so saying the thing, right, I know this is a sacrifice to your family. I know we're in this challenge. I need you to meet me here.

16:23And then when that challenge is over, when you're thriving, to take the time to celebrate as a team, to recognize, right, letting that person know they're part of something bigger than themselves, a lot of people are willing to make that sacrifice, but they want to know that they're in it with you. One of my favorite taglines, I tell my team, we do things with and for people, not to them. And so when you do something to somebody, you're saying, you must be here at this hour, you must be able to do this, you must bup, bup, bup, bup, you're doing something to them. But if you can gather them together and say, this is our mission, this is our purpose, this is what we're working towards, can we work together to set schedules, to set hours, to set roles.

17:02You see the buy-in going up so much more because they see themselves as something bigger than, being part of something bigger than themselves. So I don't think it's either or. Al, I think it's a yes and. I don't think in what the 380 interviews have done, I don't think we've had someone who's admitted that sometimes you do have to just work on a Sunday and sometimes you do just cheekily go, oh, do you mind if I just jump on a call with you? And most people are saying, oh, no, we'd never do that. And you're just you're giving us a glimpse into the real life, I think. Absolutely. Because that same person, I don't, you know, I have the privilege of not having to measure hours.

17:41Right. I measure outcomes. And so I tell my team, like, you know, I trust you. Right. You know, the Rachel Botsman's definition of trust is one of my favorite definitions. It's great for parents, too, because her definition is a confident relationship with the unknown. love it, right? A confident relationship with the unknown. So I don't have to see you, right, in person. That back to my example, like when I came into the workforce where you had to be seen in order to be thought that you were doing your job, you know, I trust you to know where you need to be and where you need to, when you need to be it and what has to be delivered because we're outcome focused.

18:18But I also know that there's, you also know that at times I'm going to need you to lean in on something. And I think that reciprocity, that generosity of trust earned, right? Sometimes when people don't keep up the trust, right? If it's broken, then you've got to negotiate a new relationship. Let's talk about these outcomes. Does that mean then that in theory, and of course I would never talk practicalities, but in theory, some of your team could be working half as long as they're contracted to, as long as they're bringing those outcomes in and consistently delivering the outcome, would you be fine with that?

18:53So when you're saying that my insides are like making all sorts of weird feelings, like all sorts of like, no, I do think there's a future like that. And there's some work like that when you think about how work is negotiated and some that are gig workers or specifically outcome-based teams that negotiate those. For me, it is less about, like, I don't know that I'd be comfortable if somebody's being paid 40 hours and working 20 hours and going, well, I did what you asked me to. That wouldn't make me feel great. What would make me feel great is to say, hey, I'm able to do my core responsibility in those 20 hours.

19:32And so I've picked up some, I call it side hustle. I picked up these side hustles that are helping this team over here or building new competencies or enriching the lives of the company at large by doing these things. And I've learned how to teach the balance of the team how to work with this level of efficiency and effectiveness so that we are able to progress and move up our value chain. And so I think that would be more exciting for me. For me, when I think about that flexibility, it's more about if you've got a doctor's appointment at two, if you need to ring off at four because you're spending time at your child's fill in the blank and then you're ringing back on after the child goes to bed fine fine and and if i need you on an occasional sunday which i promise i don't do it very often um you're willing to help me there too we've got five generations in the workplace today i think is that right how we what's your thoughts then first of all on how you're seeing because you've got so many employees how are you seeing this panning out in the real world when you've got these five generations?

20:31I think about it a lot in the spirit of, you know, going back 30 years ago when I entered the workforce and how did it feel to, you know, match the workplace. I also think about it in terms of recognizing these newer generations and in particular thinking about the millennials and the Gen Zs and the way in which they're teaching us, right? So I often hear leaders, HR leaders, frustrated, you know, sort of labeling generations, right? You know, that generation, right? So for me, when I came to the workplace, I remember I, you know, I'm a Gen Xer and I worked for, at the time, what was a silent generation leader, right?

21:18So he was significantly older than I was. And, you know, that's the, just for context setting, those are those born like 1930 to 1945 or so. And I remember I had the audacity to ask him for feedback. He said, you know, this is that role where I told you I took that big promotion. I was the head of HR for their flagship plant, a thousand people in Kentucky. It had just recently gone union. And I came back up to the headquarters to meet with the CHRO at the time, head of HR, Bob Wambuckler. And he said, hey, I'd love to get some feedback on how you think I'm performing against expectations. His exact line was, you and your generation, you all want feedback.

22:04It stuck with me because it reminded me that he was of a different, he was just of a different era. But I felt that level of judgment sort of sinking into my body. And one of his peers, sort of in a different but similar situation, said, you're getting paid every two weeks, right? Isn't that your feedback? Okay, clearly, I got to set my expectations right. And so that was the way I experienced it. The Gen X are coming in with the boomers and the silent generation. That was my experience 30 plus years ago. And so as new generations come into the workforce, you know, behind us, right, the millennials, and then the Gen Zs, and I hear some of my peers trying to first paint a broad brush, you know, sort of paintbrush, which I don't think is fair.

22:47But I also think they're doing it in a way that denigrates the lived experiences and how much we have to learn from them, right? I came into the workplace at a time where it was not okay to not be in the workplace after your leader and the expectation that you would just stay until after your leader left. and then these millennials, they come behind and they're like, hey, wait, actually, I want to work for an organization that's purpose-driven. I want to make sure that we have really good collaboration and by the way, I care about my life outside of work and I'm not willing to sacrifice that. And the Gen Zs even more, right?

23:30They're teaching us native digital skills. They're teaching us digital, you know, collaboration, you know, so where my team and, you know, the boomers used to say, well, only work happens when you're in person. And the Gen Zs are like, absolutely not. I game with my best friend who lives, you know, sort of halfway around the world every night and we're thick as thieves. We're so tightly bound. And I just think each generation has this opportunity to teach something to the generation above, just like they have the opportunity to learn from us. And so I am much more comfortable talking about the work-life integration in my messy life because the millennials in my life and because the Gen Zs in my life have given me the language for that and have also demanded it of me in terms of seeing my full humanity and wanting to connect with me that way.

24:20Now, if you're sitting there thinking, this is all well and good for a Fortune 500 company, but I've got 25 people and no budget. Well, Amy's got you covered. She's about to share exactly how to have those crucial conversations that most leaders avoid, including the fact that she still scripts and practices difficult conversations out loud. Plus, she'll explain why not having hard conversations is actually a form of disrespect to your team. and she talks about a framework called content pattern relationship that will change how you handle performance issues this is a practical stuff that works whether you have five employees or five thousand i can imagine someone perhaps sitting there going i've listening to this going i've got 75 people i don't have an amy in my organization it's all me what amy is telling me to do now i've already got enough for my plate how am i supposed to start doing all the things you've just told me I should start doing?

25:16I think the first one is you're not alone, right? You know, look around, do a quick stakeholder assessment and consider who are your connectors, right? Who are the leaders that report to you, who are good at staying connected to people? I believe strongly, what does James Clear say, you don't rise to the level of your goals. You fall to the level of your systems. and, you know, having systems. I've probably just screwed that up and said it completely backwards. But the whole idea of like your systems, right? Like build in the routines, set the practices and, you know, go out. Like you might look for the next three months and go, I don't have time for that.

25:58Okay. But then, you know, ask yourself, how are you staying connected with? Do you have quarterly all team, you know, hands-on? Do you have social connections? Do you have skip level meetings? And you might look and interrogate your schedule and go, I don't have time for that right now. Maybe not. That's okay. I don't have time for the next 30 or 60 days, but then I look out 60, 90 days and I start to build the systems. And you set the prompts and you put it as an automatic reminder, right? Automate as much as you can about those things so that every Friday I have a reminder on my calendar at 7.30 that says express gratitude every Friday morning.

26:33And it's a 30 minute block on my schedule and I go back through the week and I look at who has made an outsized commitment in my week, who have I seen go above and beyond in a project or process, I call them, I send them a note, I drop them a handwritten card, fill in the blank. But I want, I make sure that I take that time every week. And then I have my regular team meetings and my skip level meetings and my all team calls. And they're just the practices I build. We practice, invest in your people that same way. You're doing it with your clients. You're doing it, you're doing it with your shareholders, do it with your people.

27:08Just really quickly, you said skip level meeting. I've never heard that before. Oh, sure. It's just a simple term. If you can imagine like an organizational structure, if Sally reported to me and then Sally has five people, how often are you connecting with those five people below Sally? So you're probably talking to Sally on a regular basis, but how well are you spending time deeper in the organization? And so if you talk about your 75 people, all 75 don't report directly to you. You probably have five or seven to whom are leading those business lines or leading those functional capabilities.