234. Job hugging, Microsoft meltdowns and career regrets. PLUS! The truth about white noise and your brain - This Week in Work, 23rd September 2025

0:01Coming up this week in work. Job hugging. It's a workplace trend you probably haven't heard of but might already be living. When staying in an unfulfilling job feels safer than risking a move, are we looking at loyalty or fear? And what does it mean for leaders when retention isn't actually engagement? And talking of risk, this week Harvard's Arthur Brooks says the biggest career risk isn't actually failing, it's living with regret because you never tried. So why does our fear of future regret keep us playing safe? And how can tiny acts of courage build the confidence to take bigger risks when it counts?

0:36Plus, we have a brand new segment for you, Truth or Lie. We're putting workplace psychology claims under the microscope and trying to figure out what's right and what's just nonsense. This is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture. Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a choice of occupational psychologist. My name is Al, I'm a business owner. And together we help organisations build amazing workplace cultures. So let's get right into this after a quick word from our beautiful, very sexy sponsors.

1:06Very sexy. Okay, welcome back. It's Leanne's favourite time of the week. Just before we do, if you're noticing a little bit of a tonality or a nasality in our voices, we went back to the UK, which was fabulous. We love the UK for a holiday, went back, but like every time we got a cold. So we're back on the airwaves with a little bit of a head cold. But worse things happen at sea. Anyway, Lee, talking of worse things, have I messed this up any more? Could I have messed this up any more? Probably, but let's not dwell, shall we? So it's Deanne's favourite time of the week. It is time for the news roundup.

1:42Cue the jingle, Al. Jingle is being cute. Okay, Lee, what have you seen? I have a new word. Okay, I love the new words. Yep, okay, go. My new word is job hugging. Hob jugging. Job hugging. Job hugging. Is this like tree hugging? kind of I guess not really well thank you for being kind clinging on to something for dear life like a koala like a koala indeed yeah I think I alluded to the intro what this one is and I actually came across it in a LinkedIn post by occupational psychologist Nicole Williams who is fabulous she really is yeah so her post basically said you remember quiet quitting that whole wave of people when they were pulling back doing the bare minimum disengaging to protect themselves well this is a flip side So jog hugging is what happens when people stay in jobs they don't love, not because they're engaged, but because the world outside feels too uncertain.

2:33And moving is just a bit of a risk. And I think if we're honest, that feels pretty real right now to everybody. Markets are a bit shaky, job ads are down. And there is this kind of constant low level threat of just impending doom, isn't there? Residency, restructure, residency, redundancy, restructure wars. Yeah, it's making people cling to what feels safe, what they know. even if it isn't fulfilling and even if it is a little bit draining. So Nicole went on to point out this might be especially true for younger workers. The generation we usually expect to be flexible and curious and mobile may now be choosing security over progression.

3:09And to be fair, I think, you know, Nicole made this point as well. We don't have any hard data on job hugging. There's no kind of research out there, but it does fit the pattern because whether it is quite quitting or job hugging, what we're seeing is people who are just trying to feel safe in systems that don't give them much certainty and then that brings us on to leadership really because if someone's staying in your business out of fear that is not a win my friend that is not a win it might look like retention but underneath they're just a bit stuck and so Nicole Graves some really good advice here she suggested three things for leaders and HR teams to think about at one are we actually rewarding loyalty and consistency or just taking it for granted two are we acknowledging the pressure people are under emotionally and financially and three are we making job security part of the culture not just a vague line in the handbook our thoughts yeah well i suppose for the younger generation which i'm i'm gonna say younger i mean anyone's younger than me but i'm gonna say someone who's maybe really old i am really old but i would say someone who's maybe sort of like 21, 22, 23.

4:14They've been in the job market for about six years, seven years. They've gone through, God, we've gone through COVID, pandemic, work from home. You can't work from home. You should work from home. Jamie Dimon says you're an idiot from working from home. There's so much disruption. We feel like we're on the, I mean, there's wars. We feel like we're at the brink of something really big and nasty happening to the economy, to the world, really. So, yeah, I suppose that might be, but you know what, humans, Tony Robbins said this, I think he said that the two things that people want is certainty and uncertainty in their life.

4:46They want certainty to know they're safe, but uncertainty so they've got challenges. And I think what we've got here is we've got uncertainty in terms of life, work, everything. And then there's no uncertainty in challenges because then you're like, well, I can't change jobs. I'm like, yeah, I think what I'm rambling, but basically I'm saying is that it's tough for everyone. But I do feel for those guys who've been in work for six years and it's been a bit of a shit six years. Yeah, and I think, you know, we've seen this before. Let's not forget the great resignation that came after the pandemic.

5:16You know, we saw lots of lovely high retention rates probably from 2020, 2022. It's not real. It's like Nicole says it, this isn't engagement. This is people just biding their time until the market picks up and inevitably it will at some point. And we'll see this max exodus of people again. And I think for any business owner listening, now is really the time that you can invest in your employee experience and employee engagement and really make a difference and potentially stop people from this job hugging and actually just making sure that they are engaged. There was a study that I read fairly recently on this from some psychologists who looked at the Greek financial crisis, which was quite significant, wasn't it?

5:59And they kind of found that the ethical leadership is the key to helping people feel engaged rather than engage in job hugging. So being consistent, being fair, being transparent. I guess not taking advantage of people's insecurity right now by asking them to do more above and beyond than they might have the energy or indeed the cares for. so yeah if you are looking to avoid job hugging and foster more genuine employee engagement then leadership is going to be huge right now so yeah there you go job hugging it might sound harmless it might sound like a really great thing for you because you've got a high retention rate right now oh but man do we not remember the great resignation the chaos that that brought the inflated salaries people are on let's not make the same mistakes again yeah and just this links in nicely to Thursday's episode because the data shows that people are staying in jobs and therefore you might go retention is superb.

6:59But actually, the actuality is they're hugging their job. And so the data is slightly flawed. And that's a bit of a bit of a foreshadowing for this Thursday. Coincidentally. Al, what have you seen this week? Well, talking of coincidences, I saw something quite similar. It's kind of similar to what you're saying. There's a guy called Simon Sinek. I'm sure you've come across it. I think He said The Pursuit of Why was one of his biggest books. Certainly one of his first books. Was that right? Pursuit of Why? Yeah, you can't go onto YouTube without tripping over Simon Smith. Yeah. Yeah, he's everywhere.

7:28He's also got a podcast called A Bit of Optimism. And I was listening to it the other week. And, well, actually, last week. This is the key thing that came out of this episode with a guy called Arthur. Most of us think the biggest risk at work is failing. But this Arthur Brooks, he's a happiness expert. I don't want to be a happiness expert. He's a happiness expert and Harvard University professor. and he says it's actually the opposite because the biggest risk is living with regret because you never tried now this we all know this the you know the seven regrets of the dying and all that very famous article maybe about 15 20 years ago but this is specifically around work when we're looking at risk he calls it mental time travel so he says this is how you sort of imagine yourself in the future and you're cringing at decision you made today so this fear of regret makes us play safe.

8:15So we maybe might not speak up in a meeting or might not pitch a new idea, or we don't go for the promotion that we think we're going to get because our mental time travel is like, yeah, but what happens if you don't get it? You'll be sadder by not getting it than if you hadn't even applied. And ironically, this is what leads up to the real regret a little later on. The research shows that regret avoidance is one of the strongest drivers in human behavior, but it pushes us towards caution and not growth. Now, this is from the article that I read around this. By the way, the book is called The Happiness Files by Arthur Brooks.

8:50So it looks really good. I think you should definitely go and buy it. Now, I'm not saying necessarily that, and neither is Arthur, you should blow up your career or quit or whatever. Although, interestingly, Arthur does. He says he takes his life back down to the, I think he says to the studs, which is an American way of saying basically just rips everything out and starts again every 10 years. But he says, I know. I'm not sure I want to do that and I think that maybe that's something which if you are a Harvard professor and then you can do that but if you know if you just made sales director and then you go right I'm going to go back to the sales floor and I'm going to you know make cold calls that might not be exactly what you want to do so the solution is instead he says to take micro risks so go to work take tiny sort of like low stakes I suppose acts of courage so go and say hello to someone you share an idea you've had with your boss that's not fully formed, ask for some feedback, you'd usually dodge.

9:42Because it might sound silly, but just doing these little things sort of flexes that risk muscle and allows you to take mini risks that if they don't pan out, might be at worst slightly embarrassing, but are definitely not going to blow things up. So you see how it kind of fits in with what you were saying there? What are your thoughts so far, Lee? Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. I think particularly as we get older, we get much more risk averse. So if you are probably 40 plus in that kind of second half of your career then then yes we might be reluctant to take those risks and it actually might be a good time to do it because it's exploring those new opportunities that it really gives so much fulfillment and meaning um the psychology regret is really interesting um one thing that i do remember off the top of my head is that we certainly it's true you know that saying we don't regret the things regret the things you didn't do yeah not the things you did do yeah And the psychology kind of backs that up because it shows that we experience more regret when we think about scenarios that we don't know how it ended or what the outcome would have been.

10:47Because then we imagine this whole wonderful existence that could have been, the one that got away, the job that we should have taken, that holiday. So yeah, we regret that because we're really good at making up something fabulous. Living something fabulous takes a bit more effort, doesn't it? So yeah, I like that. Approved. Yeah, absolutely. I think what is interesting is that this Arthur Brooks kind of frames it as like a startup mentality. So those people who start companies, there are inherent risks in companies, huge risks in companies. But the difference is that they don't say, I'm not going to start because I might fail.

11:20They start because knowing that there's a risk of failure, but also the success is just the prize is worth that failure. The other thing he pointed out, which is really interesting, let me just read from it. He called these micro nutrients of happiness. And there's three. Enjoyment from doing something engaging, satisfaction from progress, and meaning from building something that matters. That all fits in nicely with entrepreneurs, with founders. That's exactly what they're doing because they're charting their own course. They're sailing their own ship. I'm not sure there's any more metaphors.

11:48Studding their own boots. Studding, is that a word? Is that a phrase? Don't you say something about studding? Down to the studs? Down to the studs. I think it was more like down to the studs of a house, but maybe the studs of his boots, but I don't know. So basically Arthur's lesson is very simple. At work and in life, the danger isn't failing, it's getting to the end and wish you'd tried. Kind of similar to what you were saying there, but also the opposite, because if someone is job-hogging, then they are not willing to take the risk to go in there. So maybe if you are job-hogging... And being very unhappy for it, that's the point, isn't it?

12:17Well, there we go. There we go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So money doesn't bring you happiness, but apparently those three things, doing something engaging, satisfaction from progress, and let me see what else did my notes say, building something that matters. That's what you want to be doing. If you're interested a bit more, then go and check out Simon Sinek's podcast, A Bit of Optimism, and go and find out Arthur Brooks. And his book is called The Happiness Files. Lee, any thoughts before we move on to your article? I should like to read that book and speak to Arthur. There we go, Arthur. You listening?

12:45Love to have you on the show. Open invitation. What else do you see, my love? Is there something big brewing at Microsoft? Is there something going on there? Do you know? We spoke to Bill recently. Do you know what? He's not answered my calls for a few days. Really? I think it might be his lodge or his cabin. Oh, signals. Signals rough there. Wouldn't worry. Yeah. Could you imagine? So, right. There's a story that is kind of doing the rounds on socials and a couple of news outlets start to pick it up as well from Microsoft. So it comes from an original post from an employee who's been with the company for seven years and the post opened with the words, it's scaring me.

13:21So what they said is there's basically two senior engineers on a big project that have suddenly left. Another colleague of theirs quit. It's quietly asking for referrals for other jobs. Their own manager is booking a string of personal meetings back to back. So all of it together is feeding this sense that something big is happening under the surface. Now, they did go on to say, so some commentary on this. It could just be the usual what's called post-vesting season. I've not heard of this before, have you? I know what vesting is, but I don't know what post-vesting, well I'm guessing that post-vesting comes after vesting but go on.

13:56What's vesting? Vesting I think is when you get your shares paid out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't know that. There you go. So yeah, it's a point in the year when people who've earned their stock awards cash out and move on. But what this employee says is that it doesn't feel like the normal shuffle. It feels like a bit more than that. And they actually said this feels like something's brewing. People are jumping ship. Now there's some comments underneath this as well, Al, which really just just adds so much more richness so one person said the culture here at least in my team has dramatically shifted managers look like pinballs completely powerless another said they no longer feel a sense of purpose so what to your point with Arthur was talking about they're just reacting to whatever the topic of the day is and despite making good money they've talked about wanting to do work that has more of an impact on the world around them rather than just helping another multi-trillion dollar company squeeze out another percent of growth at the cost of their sanity.

14:52Wow. Yeah, others have gone further in the comments suggesting that Microsoft is actually intentionally pushing out older or longer tenured employees, so people over 55 or with 10 years of service, by using the return to office rules or trumped up performance issues or even offering packages for them to leave. The accusation is that the company prefers a workforce made up of of certain demographics in terms of age, in terms of visa status as well, because they can pay them less and control them more tightly. So there you go. Well, that seems to be something brewing at Microsoft. Have you heard anything on the grapevine?

15:29I haven't. Now, was this from a particular team like, you know, like LinkedIn or Skype or GitHub? I didn't say. It's anonymous employees. Interesting. Also, the people who put those comments underneath, were they anonymous or was it on LinkedIn? No, well, they wouldn't have been anonymous. No, I didn't think I was very brave to be able to do that. But I don't know. I mean, Microsoft's a very, very strange one because if you look at their business model, they've got so many different things going on. None of them seem to do particularly well. I mean, who woke up recently and went, I can't wait to go back to work and get a Microsoft Teams call.

16:01That software is horrendous. Skype, let's just shut it down. Oh, I'm fuming about that. The number. Yeah, they've shut down. Yeah, well. The only decent thing they did. Yeah, exactly. And also, how the hell did they mess up Skype over the pandemic? I know. What were they doing? Nothing. I mean, I'm sorry, Microsoft, but nothing you do seems to be exceptional. And the only exceptional stuff you do is when you do it in joint venture with someone else. Are they part of OpenAI or is it Anthropik? I can't remember. I think they're funding one of them. Maybe it's OpenAI. I can't remember. But it's just nothing seems like Microsoft Word.

16:39It's just okay, isn't it? you know, Microsoft Excel. It's just okay. Do you know what? I've actually switched to Google in the last six months. Really? Yeah. You're a proper office girl, weren't you? Proper office. I've had my 365 subscription for a long time. Canceled it. Not really missed it. No. No, no. And there's so much more. I just, I don't know that there's anything like nefarious going on or we were about to see Microsoft going bust or anything silly like that. but it just feels in a world where in a world where That sounds good with your card. Did it? Yeah. In a world where Bill can do anything why does he do everything?

17:20Bitch. But in a world where everyone's like building amazing things and there's some amazing stuff coming out Microsoft's just like I'm a bit white and a bit white rice aren't they? Yeah. That's my thoughts. Yeah. fair i mean i have seen something around kind of bill gates talking about the three-day work week could be achievable given ai so it might be that they're about to go ai first or or make your whole departments ai led um but who knows this is just social media chatter al it's not been verified by microsoft um but i do think a mood is revealing itself in terms of sentiment around these big these big companies how they treat their people how they operate in the world and the impact that they have.

18:04Of course, culture doesn't collapse overnight, but to me, I just wonder whether there's just some signs that people are starting to lose faith in big tech. Yeah, could be. Could be. Only time will tell, I suppose. Lee, anything else to add or should we go to a break? No, that concludes the news roundup. Beautiful, beautiful. Thank you so much. Right, if you've got, by the way, if you've got a news article you'd like Leanne and I to talk about or butcher. Saves the job, wouldn't it? Yeah, butcher in my case. Then the link's from the show notes and it could be something about you as well if it's interesting.

18:32And if you're from Microsoft, get in touch. Right, well, we'll see you after the very short break where we have the world-famous weekly workplace surgery and we don't have the hot take, which we've had for about the last 18 months. So find out why in just a second. Welcome back. Okay, we've started something new this week. It's called Truth or Lie. Bang on brand. Bang on brand. Now, here's why we think this is a good segment. Psychology has become this goldmine for quick claims. And you've seen it on TikTok, LinkedIn, company training days, all about biopsychologists and immediately has this credibility.

19:06They sound smart. You know, they feel like they're definitely true. And before you know it, then all these little snippets that are biopsychologists are basically law and they shape like the way we work or the way we learn. The trouble is a lot of them don't actually hold up to scrutiny. And often it's not that they're totally made up. It's that someone takes a little sliver of psychology, oversimplifies it, or just takes an idea and pushes it a little bit too far. Lee, you are a psychologist. You don't do that, do you? Well, I don't. But I think we're all guilty sometimes of oversimplifying it or just kind of clinging on to something that seems to make sense to us.

19:42And there's some really famous ones that some of you will be aware of, some that you might not. Thinking styles and an auditory, visual, aesthetic. There's not really much positive data behind that. Yeah, there's lots of years and years of studies that show that kind of that supposed learning style and matching that to a person doesn't actually make a difference in how well people learn it's still a preference it might help our engagement or concentration but it doesn't actually have a significant impact I always thought I was an auditory I always thought I learned better if I listened but rather than but me too me too but that's a thingy it might be more of a preference than actually a a thing um and then of course there's Myers-Briggs we don't need to talk about that other than it's complete nonsense but there's still entire careers and organizations being shaped by that for goodness knows why um so yeah so it felt that that maybe this was our opportunity al to to put some put some things to rights yeah and that's the real danger is that someone hears something on a course by some person at the front of the room saying oh well this is the different auditory this is the visual learning styles and then they go well that must be law so they bring it into work and then they put it into the internal training and then it just becomes like we said before law in the work It even can affect the apps and the tools you're going to buy for your team.

20:56So this segment, which we're calling Truth or Lie, is about putting those claims under the microscope and asking, does the evidence actually back them up? So here is the first one. And I'm really genuinely interested in this. Just so you know, usually what happens, well, usually what happens, we've only done this once, what we decided on this one was that I was going to decide, Leanne gave me a selection of ideas, and I chose one and I asked the question, but I don't know what you're about to say. So I'm going to learn alongside you. So, truth or lie, Leanne, playing white noise helps you concentrate?

21:27Excellent question, Al. Excellent question. Should we make sure everyone understands what white noise is, first of all? Yes. Because there's lots of different noises. White noise, pink noise, brown noise, green noise. So, white noise is a sound spread evenly across all the frequencies that humans can hear. Does it sound a bit like? Yeah. Like static. Yeah. Pink noise is similar, but heavier on the lower frequencies. So maybe more like exactly water running, for example, might be more like pink noise. And both are indeed marketed as focus boosters. And it is easy to see why people believe it. You see it, don't you, on YouTube.

22:05They've got tens of millions of views on videos with white noise. Spotify has whole pink noise playlists. We see it in terms of putting babies to sleep, TikTok swearing by it. it's a nice story isn't it that the hum is just gonna magically make our our brain perform better but what does the research actually show well 2024 a systemic review pulled together 13 different studies we like these types of studies now why do we like these types of studies because they're longitudinal no because it brings in more data for lots of different so you have a bigger sample oh i see bigger sample yes bigger sample so 13 studies of children and young adults with adhd So what they found is that in that group, those people who had ADHD, white or pink noise did help.

22:52So in terms of performance on attention and memory tasks, that improved, not dramatically, but reliably and a statistically significant way, which basically means more than chance. Right. Okay. For people who didn't have ADHD, though, it had the opposite effect. So performance actually dropped. Really? When listening to white noise. Yeah. Huh. Yeah. So that's, yeah. And what's interesting as well is this isn't isolated. Obviously, this was from across 13 studies, but there's been another study that wasn't included in this that split school children into three groups, super attentive, like very focused, average, subattentive.

23:29Might have some trouble concentrating. What they found is that with white noise, the subattentive kids improved in terms of their performance, but the super attentive ones actually got worse. So why? So why? Do you know why? Yeah. I do. So I've tried, I've tried to do an analogy, Al, and you know what I'm like, sometimes he's hit and sometimes he's miss. So let's see. So think of it like a pair of glasses, right? If your eyesight is blurry, if you need some little help, if you're one of those sub, subattentive people, you need some help. So you're going to put on your glasses and it's going to sharpen the image.

24:06Yeah. Yeah. If your vision is already fine, but you put on somebody else's prescription of glasses, it's just going to make things worse. Oh yeah, yeah, it does. I don't need things to be sharpened. Yeah? One doesn't need it. Yeah? You know? So it's in the same way. So noise can sharpen attention when it's weak, but it can blur things if your focus is already strong. I love it. So white noise is glasses for the ear. Indeed. I like it. I like it. I, oh, sorry, it's a flying studio. I just went to try and smack it. I smacked my microphone. I like white noise. And I, do you know what? I used to have an app that would play the sounds of a coffee shop.

24:41Oh, my little extrovert. Is that me? So that was more extrovert that I wanted to be around people than it was to? More than likely, yeah, more than likely. Because actually, I don't know if you've read this, Al, but that feeds them perfectly to my next research finding, is that there's another layer to it that in workplaces or indeed in coffee shops, if you want to kind of mask distractions, then you can play white noise and actually across groups that can improve concentration. um so yeah so i think there's various different reasons as to why you like to be in a coffee shop but i'd imagine it's your extra version one to needing the energy of people to feel energized to to do your work um but yeah and it can make if you're in a busy workplace it can make a space feel calmer and easier to work in um but that is very different from kind of a claim of supercharging attention it's not so much that bold so i guess the verdict is typically it depends white pink noise can help people with adhd or those noisy environments concentrate more but if you're already focused in a quiet room then it's just likely to get in the way got it so what we're saying here is that if you are good at concentrating it's not going to help make a blind bit of difference in fact it might make what make you worse if you are bad at concentrating like me then it will help does it say which in particular pink white brown is a particular no i couldn't come across any research that made specific claims as to which one is better so no but i think the general a lot of the research that i read seemed to be on pink noise which is like a slightly deeper so maybe that's just less annoying if it's a bit deeper do you know didn't look at that but um yeah noise noise i think the point is if you're having trouble concentrating then try it it might help if you're not having any problems concentrating then well you won't be looking for a solution will you so you don't you don't it's not going to supercharge you it's not going to make you like super focused a few people i follow on twitter they they're quite often if they they what do the kids call it locking in if they lock in on a project they'll often just choose one track from an album and just play it over and over and over again for two days oh that sounds painful yeah sounds like a torture chamber doesn't it yeah yeah depends which depends which album it is i suppose if it's something from rumors then perhaps that might be quite pleasant but then you'd end up hating it but yeah anyway anyway right there we go if you have a truth or lie that you'd like leanne to investigate then we've called it leanne's investigation i like that then um then get in touch with us you know how to just check out the show notes it is now time for our world famous weekly workplace surgery where i put your questions to leanne we have three this week as is our what basically we always have we always have three uh i can't find them now yes i can i found them okay so question number one great boss great team but the work is unfulfilling this is so like i didn't read the notes to be honest and so i just banged in like my notes for my my bit but i've realized this is actually a scratchy on point so hi lianne i've been in my current role for a year the team is friendly my manager is supportive and there's nothing toxic about the environment but the work just doesn't feel meaningful it's hard to get projects over the line.

27:56There's too much red tape, too many stakeholders, constant pushback. I've spent a decade in big pharma, so I'm used to some bureaucracy, but this feels like a slog and I'm starting to feel stuck. What would you do when the people are great, but the role itself just isn't giving you anything back? Lee? In this situation, it's important to know that this is not a long-term solution for you, but it is a good short-term solution while you're figuring out what is going to be meaningful and fulfilling work to you, because you're not an environment that is toxic you're not an environment that is negatively impacting your human experience you're just an environment where you're not gaining any energy from it so over time that will lead to what is called moral burnout which is when our values and our beliefs and our ambitions are misaligned with the work that we're in and over time that will cause the same symptoms as burnout detachment from work cynicism exhaustion now is a really good time to understand what is meaningful to you you said you've been in big pharma for a decade you're used to the bureaucracy but this also sounds like a bit a bit more difficult in this organization now is a time to reflect on what meaningful work means to you and a really big um aspect of that is going to be understanding what your values are what you stand by there's a really good in fact i can leave a link in the show notes um like a generic type of like values list that basically has a value and defines it and there's about 40 of them you probably only need three core values that you want to live by and it's just going through them and identifying the things that feel important to you so it could be um for example around knowledge sharing around learning it could be around relationships communication it could be about feeling that you're having a positive impact on the world in some kind of charitable way or it could be the environment there's lots of different ones that will help you understand what's important to you and then you can can think about what type of work am I going to do that's going to align with that that work doesn't have to necessarily be constrained within your financially paid work it could be voluntary work it could be things in your community it could be things that you do with your kids or your dog or or your partner it could be within hobbies but at some point you're going to have to address this imbalance otherwise it is going to start to have a negative impact there's loads of self-coaching things you can do the wheel of life the vitals exercise that we've talked about a lot which is values um interest temperament um again i can leave links to these in the show notes um or get in touch and i can i can send them a little book clip to you but i think at this point you're really understanding what meaningful work will mean and i wouldn't think about looking for another job until you've taken that time if you can afford it engage your courage to help you with that reflection it really does make a difference go back a few episodes to our our coaching simulation wasn't it our live coaching session that we did uh there's some exercises in there that you'll be able to pick up on um but yeah the good news is you're in an organization that isn't toxic it isn't going to have a detrimental impact on your mental health or your well-being in the short term so use this time whilst you have a great team you have a support manager figure out the work that you do want to do um and then move when you're ready so really good advice and i think that if you'd ask me to answer this i'd be like oh yeah quit your job go and do something there travel the world but obviously that seems a bit silly um and leanne's got a really really sort a practical way of looking at things.

31:17You said it quite quickly, and I'd want to just make sure no one's glossed over this idea of finding your purpose outside of work. And there are lots of people who do jobs that they don't really enjoy, but they have hobbies or they run a group offline or even online. They run, you know, they do something volunteering. I remember when we were, when we first met through Samaritan, both volunteering. And I know for me, that was like It felt worthwhile, whereas the bit I was doing at the time didn't feel that worthwhile to me. So yeah, it's a sticky plaster, but I hope you sort it out. And if you do move on, let us know.