253. What happens when you bet on people the world overlooks?: The story of Standout Socks, with Co-founder and MD, Christian Laing

0:00I'm known for paid employment, like it's a thing, for paying my staff, which is apparently mad these days. But obviously we're trying to change that. So yeah, we're known for paid employment for people with learning disabilities. And we use the vehicles of SOX to spread awareness of that and Down syndrome that my little brother has. When we started, it was just about me and our kid having a... Our kid's my little brother, Ross. Very northern, I'm sorry. It was just about me. It was just about getting Ross work. That's how it started. And then he'd gone from 12 months not seeing anyone and his confidence going and his quite charismatic, our kid, and losing all that to him being back.

0:47And it was like, wow, this has really made a difference for him.

0:52Leanne:So you phoned the producers at Dragon's Den Like I'm waiting for someone to call me back They haven't Yes, yeah, yeah, I did, yeah They didn't get back to us So I phoned and pretended that this guy had phoned me And why hasn't he phoned me back And then we were in within three days So that, Manchester United was a big one And then obviously Dragon's Den and now Tesco and all these, we just got second in Santander X. We've got another big thing going on in the background that I can't divulge, but it's massive. So all these things are telling us, me, that we're going in the right direction. I hate to put people with Down syndrome or any learning disability in boxes, but ultimately when Ross walks into a room, people glow.

1:47People instantly smile. like it's uncanny what Ross has the ability to do he makes people and not just Ross but other stuff like Mark's 33 he's been with us two years now um when he came he was so quiet and now he's like so funny you just can't stop him he's he's so he's such a character to have around you know

2:14Leanne:what I mean that's Christian Ling he runs Standout Socks now Standout Socks is a company famous for doing something apparently crazy, paying their staff. Now, I need to tell you something about this interview. Normally, I edit the entire interview. I cut the pauses out. I smooth over any little stumbles. And Leanne and I usually record some segues so that it flows smoothly in a kind of a story arc. And I did start doing that with Christian. And then I stopped. Because Christian's telling this story perfectly. The pauses matter. So you're getting the full, unedited, one-hour conversation Leanne had with Christian.

2:48Leanne:Because this isn't a polished corporate story. This is a real life story of a man who cared about his brother and actually did something about it. Hello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture. Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist. And my name's Alan, I'm a business owner. And we're here to help you simplify the science of work. So let's hear Christian's incredible story in full after this very short break.

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3:57Leanne:You said it was started with your little brother, Ross. Can you take me back to the moment when you kind of realized that he deserved better? Obviously, life's busy. um careers i used to be an event um i've had many careers but um at the time of covid i was a um i've even a project manager for an events company um events stopped um and my missus was natalie who's one of the other co-founders as well as me and aros um was a pa for a construction company and construction stocks so we were both furloughed um and we were bored um we'd just become parents um and we wanted to get out the house a little bit probably um so we started selling so there was loads and loads of because everything has stopped vintage companies had warehouses full and full uh full of stuff um so we started buying vintage clothes online and then selling it in individual so we buy it in bulk and send it to sell it in individuals i ross had moved into with my mom and dad um because down syndrome was one below over 95s on the um the like list of it who it could hurt the most um ross had had to move in with my mom and dad we had to take him shopping and they'd dissect everything to put it in the house.

5:23And then we got jabbed. We could bubble up, if that's what they called it. And we were like, we'll just bring him in here and he can help us do this. And then he'd gone from 12 months not seeing anyone and his confidence going in his quite charismatic arcade and losing all that to him being back. And it was like, wow, this has really made a difference for him. and then it was time to go back to work and it was like maybe we could so we had a look around uh we're you know we never professed that we're the first people that invented socks or the link between down syndrome and socks there was other people doing it uh but we were like why not bring it to the uk um so we started we just bought i mean we i don't like when you look back and think that was mad we just mean that's it was just like let's get a loan and just just roll the dice and see what happens and that was it we launched with three different styles um and then we struggled for a couple of years like any new business um we were working three jobs to keep it alive and then dragons that happened and then since then we've been able to employ and you know we're now in tesco and we're growing each year which is nice but now it's getting a bit too serious for me so i think we're going to try and get a ceo over me so i can just be with the guys because that's what I love doing.

6:48But yeah, in a nutshell, Ross, prior to that, had not really worked. It paid for services to organisations to work in cafes and build bird boxes and et cetera, where we paid to go and do that. And that used to frustrate me. And now we do the opposite.

7:13Leanne:it how was that for for you because it sounds like you said it started this little side hustle during curva during a time where there was there was so much and also so little going on to have this idea and I and I so get it when you see somebody getting that sense of joy and purpose and meaning from work and the difference that makes how did that step go from because there's some big steps there in terms of seeing Ross starting to thrive in a place of work to then founding a sock business or pivoting to a sock business that is centered around this purpose of employing other people with learning disabilities to then Dragon's Den.

7:54Leanne:Like talk to me about that period. We launched and obviously when you launch a business like we did, we were friends and family were ace at the start. They got us through the first three months until we made big moves. And And then literally LinkedIn sent an email to Richard Arnold, which is the CEO of Manchester United, and he was like, love it. Like, we'll do it. And we got special dispensation from Paul Smith to go into the Manchester United megastore. And that was when it was kind of the penny drops, and it was like, we might have something here. So we did Manchester United within a year. But it was still a struggle.

8:37The day-to-day was that we were learning. Like, and we applied the year before for Dragon's Den. We didn't get in. We were too early on. We didn't have enough accounts. And then we sent off and applied for the second year. They didn't get back to us. So I phoned and pretended that this guy had phoned me. and why hasn't he like phoned me back and then we were in within three days.

9:12Leanne:So you phoned the producers at Dragon's Den and was like, I'm waiting for someone to call me back. They haven't. Yes, yeah, yeah, I did, yeah. I knew it. We were built for Dragon's Den. It was something that we had to do. So I knew that once that we were probably at the bottom of the pile of something. so yeah I phoned him then and then Dragons then happened and then from there we've been able to develop from there but you know what started from Ross not just Ross can I just say it's not just Ross for me and Natalie as well obviously to see the change in Ross was great but I get loads out of what I do this has not worked for me and Natalie's the same obviously we put everything into it but it's it's a joy I literally get to mess around with my mates all day in work and that's I'm thankful for that I get shouted out sometimes from Natalie for not taking it too seriously but other than that it's ace and then to see not just Ross again not just Ross but other stuff like Mark Mark's 33 he's been with us two years now when he came he was so quiet and now he's like so funny you just can't stop him he's such a character to have around do you know what I mean and as we build more characters will come on board we need to get better with with telling these stories of our staff I think so this stuff that we need to do as an organisation but ultimately

10:53we're affecting stuff and changing a few opinions and you know sometimes Sometimes, Aros making a cup of tea is the biggest thing in the world for people to see. They're like, what, can you make a brew? I'm like, it's a milky tea, to be fair. It is a milky tea, but yeah, he makes a brew. He's not the best brew maker, I'm not going to lie about that. But yeah, he makes his own dinner. He makes a brew. He makes the staff a drink when they come in. He trained all the staff.

11:22And people didn't think that was possible, you know?

11:24Leanne:Why was it important to you and to Natalie to bring other members of the team on who have learning challenges? Because you could have just said, well, you know, we've created this role for Ross and that's awesome. Why was it important for you to open up that opportunity to more people? Because we see Standout as a home for people that struggle to find a home, something for them to be proud of. the guys put stickers on all their work that show you know they're so proud of what they do Mark not to go back to him but counts every box he makes and will tell you all day how many boxes he's making he came in last week and made everyone ill because he wouldn't have a day off when he was ill but you know for the first four years we've been making it a lot about myself Ross not so much, me and Ross are like the front of this but I think it's time for us to you know, not completely go but tell everybody else's story you know, it's, you know, Oliver gets the bus to work on his own, you know, people wouldn't think that's possible and by telling these stories, we're the next generation of people with Down Syndrome or learning disabilities are seeing what's possible and having something to aspire to be and when Ross was young that there was none of that so they're seeing George Webster Ellie um Maddie in America John in America you know these all these people in the public eye now with Down syndrome especially um and parents with young children not that you know when when you see it you believe it do you know i mean before before 10 15 years ago there was nothing to see you know people walk past our stand in in tesco every day and uh represent the representation of people with down syndrome is there to millions of people as they walk past you know it's not just about the socks and selling the socks they're seeing the faces of people with Down syndrome front and centre.

13:38So, yeah, there's that. There's that. It's not so scary anymore, you know. I come at this as a sibling. I'm a brother. But, you know, I can 99%. My mum and dad would have been scared when Ross was born and there'll be millions of parents out there that would be scared to go into the unknown. And by doing what we're doing and others doing the same, it doesn't become the unknown anymore, you know.

14:02Leanne:What does the business look like today in terms of the number of team members that you have? And what's the representation amongst the team in terms of people who have Down syndrome or learning difficulties? So there's myself and Natalie and Ross as the co-founders. And then my auntie Lisa looks after the team. So in the team, with Ross and my auntie Lisa, they look after Joe, Martha, Oliver and Mark who have Down syndrome. And then this October, we brought on a marketing manager. So the whole team that does the socks, the socks side of stuff is all led by people with learning disabilities. And then the back, Natalie does everything.

14:51I do a little bit. I do bits and bobs. And then Michael does the marketing side of things. and then in the new year we're going to get a business to business manager I think and then by October a CEO and then that on the back will be built then to then start to inflate the so Lisa the Ghost emigrates to Australia in December so I'm going to go back with a team and a couple of the guys I won't name who because I know this is going out prior to them being told. The idea is to make a couple of the guys supervisors and to build their teams below them. So, yeah, it's exciting because, again, you know, people don't think that's possible.

15:42Look, we build the roles around people, so we've got two characters there that I know and have full trust in that can do that. And we use like scanner systems. So you just need to teach the scanner system and then no order ever goes out wrong because the guys work independently. They don't, you know, nobody's like walking around with them, checking what everyone's been, yeah, picking up. It's just these new scanners. And when they get it wrong, they know what they're doing wrong. And if they ever needed help, they just ask up. But the guys work independently.

16:18Leanne:what is it that other business owners entrepreneurs business leaders employers misunderstand about people with down syndrome and learning disabilities what are they not getting i just think they need to give it a chance i just they just i think they see so much red take they see so many barriers that sometimes it's just easier to go it's just not worth that but it is You know, it really is. And if you build that, again, if you build the roles around people, you can build whatever role you're in and it'll only be a positive for your organisation. More than capable. But it's not just the capableness.

16:59And I hate to put people with Down syndrome or any learning disability in boxes. But ultimately, when Ross walks into a room, people glow. People instantly smile. Like, it's uncanny what Ross has the ability to do. He makes people, and not just Ross, again, I hate putting people with Downton Abbey boxes, but every time one of our staff members walks into a room, it just sends happiness everywhere. It's like, happiness, happiness, ping, ping, ping. And just to have that as an ability is unreal. Forget about the work side of things. They're just the personality in your organisation to make people happy and more engaged.

17:48It's incredible. And then, you know, again, Down syndrome isn't one thing. People think that if you've got Down syndrome, you're this one thing. It's not. People with Down syndrome have different personalities, are capable of different things. um you know to for example with mark just likes building boxes i could mark i could get mark work for five hours in front of him and he will work non-stop to the best quality um for five hours just telling me about his day but he won't stop working getting him sit down is difficult for his dinner even okay whereas martha martha's a bit more wants the chat, wants the, you know, so she does the, she'll go do the scanning and the orders because she wants to, you know, be about the chat and stuff and doesn't need that one job, that repetitive job.

18:49But Mike's been doing this repetitive job now for two years and he loves it. That, you can't find that. Like you, I do it for 20 minutes. I'm like, oh, like I don't want to do it anymore. Mark, two years, five hours, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. Talking all the way through it, doesn't bother him. Joe's the same. Joe can just rattle through boxes after box after box after box. So, you know, no sickness, no lateness. The guys want to be here, which is difficult to find in employees these days. um for like it's a happy place it really is like they bring so much on that on that side of things but you know just get they get the job done like is people like even people are coming to say how would you do it and i'm like how do you do what and they're like well how do you employ people with learning disabilities and then how do you pay them just employ them and then they pay them like there's no there's no art to this like you either want to do it or you don't want to do it if you don't want to do it that's fine that's on you you know different different companies organizations do different things i get it i'm not putting that pressure on anyone um but we we're it's not hard it's really not hard um the only thing i would say is because of the way we're set up we couldn't find anyone that was doing it the way we were doing it so we work with an hr company that has inbuilt a HR processing for people with learning disabilities.

20:29And that's because when our staff sign contracts, everyone has contracts here. They're not just, you know, we can't just say, right, bye. You know, everyone has full rights here. But parents want to know what's going on, usually with people with learning disabilities, but they have the rights to say no. You know, if Mark doesn't want his mum to come and sit in, you you know that's up to him that's and parents are told that from the start but you know parents are the parents that we have erased I'm not saying but that you know we had to inbuilt that because parents would ring and say like what's going on and I'd be like you need to speak to Mark I can't speak you know that's the only difference I'd say but you know it's not hard is it

21:16Leanne:I mean you say it's not hard Christian but it's a stretch sometimes just get an employer to treat employees as adults which sounds what you're doing with with your team and and there's you know there's an added layer to it as well I I totally get what you mean about you don't want to kind of put put people with learning disabilities in a box yet there there is such a heart and a empathy that I've experienced being around um around people with learning disabilities my my best friend has a son who has significant challenges and he is the sweetest most beautiful young man we had a rotty that was was a wasn't a big fan of people and particularly wasn't a big fan of men so we were really nervous when he came to visit and Nathan just kind of walked in got on his knees stayed still and our dog just kind of was drawn to him before it like a minute he was on his back getting belly rubbed and there was just a connection that that yeah they sound sounds so silly but our dog just got instantly he was like you're you're you're a good person yeah good heart there's no alternate there's no ulterior motive you know like in some workplaces you know people are trying to do this people are trying to do that you know talking about Everything comes from such a beautiful place, which could help any atmosphere in any place.

22:47If you could bottle it and sell it, you would, wouldn't you? So, like you say, with animals, again, you had the hate box, but Ross is like the animal whisperer. They can sense, animals can probably sense good in people, I guess. Like there's no malice there. So again, it's so hard not to, you don't want to put people with learning disability in boxes. But I suppose that's the positive box at least to do it. But again, just the stress. It's not, you know, I can speak for Down syndrome. It's not one thing. you know they're not always happy you know ross isn't always happy let me tell you when i i asked him to work a sunday once because we needed to go and do something in the football museum didn't want to do it he wasn't happy about it and he booted off all day the people were dancing and we're not always happy they're not eternal children uh they like a beer, Ross drinks beer you know they're not kids either, he doesn't need your oars he really doesn't if people are him, I'm like don't are him he's got the greatest life ever but it's a change of, listen I'm not saying that's bad but I think what we're trying to do here is empower and say look you know we appreciate that as a society we want to protect people.

24:26You know, it's not, again, as a society, we're not coming from a bad place. We want to look after and protect. But, you know, there's a point where it gets to babying and, you know, don't talk to me. He's a person. And, again, I don't think people, when they do it, I like to think they don't come from a bad position. They just... They're just not educated, one. They've never been around it, two, because it's never been represented until the last 10 years, I'd say. So as a society, we're going to go on this rollercoaster of change, and that's great.

25:05Leanne:We connected over the Waitrose story that came out about a young man with autism, was it, who was then looking to get paid work after being there for years, and then they ended up basically letting him go. why and particularly the organizations that on the surface seem to be ethical organizations responsible businesses how is this acceptable when actually it just sounds to me like exploitation it's slavery let's call it what it is slavery uh they do it because they can get away with it um and i don't think you i think with waitrose the service the surface was scratched i don't you know, this is not just Waitrose.

25:47There's a lot of organisations that have, that portray an inclusive workforce, et cetera, but people don't realise that the inclusive workforce is being treated differently than the non-inclusive workforce, however you want to put it. Families, people with learning disabilities have nothing else. There's nowhere for them to do, nowhere for them to go. So they're taken advantage of, and that's the be all and end all of it. There's no government kind of legislation on volunteering. You know, 600 hours is not volunteering. 100 hours might be volunteering, but there's no, like, progress from the volunteering.

26:38So there's no, like, right, okay, you've done 100 hours. Let's sit and have a chat about how you've got on. Maybe we could do 50%, voluntary 50 % paid now. Right, you've done 250 hours. You're an asset to the company. Let's go from there. The problem is because there's nothing else, if we, and they know it, there's nothing else, if we all gather together and say, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, just stop. And then what a family's meant to do then, do you know what I mean? It's so, there's no alternative at the moment. You know, that's just waitrose. It's organisations that people will pay to go there for the day, build stuff, and then the organisation sells it.

27:31Again, for me, that's not right. But that's the way it's been done for 30, 40 years. And until there's an alternative, that will continue. and hopefully standout would be that alternative. But we're only small. We need people to get behind us to build to that. But there's literally nothing out there, Leanne. It's not like there's an option. Families need... What are people meant to do? Just sit at home all day.

28:08so I'm not here to discredit or poo poo or waitrose all I'm here is to show there's an alternative and I think that's the right way I might be wrong but I think the way that we do it here is the correct way of treating people and the way that we should go as people and there's other ways that you could do it. I'm not saying my way is right. I'm just saying that's the way that we can continue to do it and that's what we're built on. That's the cause of... But until we get big enough to offer loads of people, loads of paid roles, then there's no alternative. So if you go through HOs to just shut their volunteering system down and people have got nothing to do, and then they'll be paying other organisations to go there for the day to build or to learn skills as learners or however you want to call it paying£60 to£100 a day to go there and again it's like you know what's after that once they've got the skills and you can't call them trainers for 10 years and take 100 quid off them a week.

29:32And even if they can't turn up that week, take the 100 quid because they need to keep their place. But that's the way it's done. And we just offer the alternative. If people are fine with that, then that's on them, isn't it? But this is the thing, Leanne. So as much as we made this look relatively easy, it's not been easy. It's been so hard for 26 months. me, Ross, Natalie didn't get paid from Santa you know, we had to work three jobs to keep it afloat, now at any point in them 26 months we could have changed to a CIC or a charity, got loads of people to run around Manchester for us got loads of funding from the government and then we could have filled it with volunteers and I could have 78 shifts here with a thousand people working for free and I could sit in this office, put my feet up and take you know 70 grand a month with my feet up that's what we could do but that seems that seems that I'm giving up on Ross I'm giving up on the guys it's like saying that's all you're worth I can make it easy we can make this so easy do you know what I mean we could just switch tomorrow and this, you know, fill it with volunteers, stop paying the staff, get people to run around, to donate and we could even get the volunteers to pay to come in.

31:10I could get all the guys to pay 60 quid a shift to come in to work and call them trainers. So, again, I'm not saying that's wrong. I won't do it. But what we're building here just seems to be different and disruptive and able to get the point over a little bit more of this is empowerment as well. This is not just... And all that's happening is money's going from our taxes into government to social services to these organisations back into government. it's just a cycle of of dysfunction

32:00and I think people are waking up to it and it just needs you know and sometimes I do worry by speaking like this this is really open speaking by the way that these organisations will close but at the end of the day it's just it's just another a service led business that's you know someone else will pop up. Do you know what I mean? Like, there's money in it, so people are going to do it. If there was no money in it, people wouldn't do it. So I just think we got to a point where there were some lovely little organisations and then they started paying people and building monsters. I mean, like, senior management and et cetera.

32:48and then they have to pay these wage bills before anybody that needs help gets help. And it's all that for me. There's got to be something different because it's dysfunction. It's the highest. You said that we could take this route.

33:08Leanne:We could set up as a charity or not for profit and take all the government funding, charge people to come in. Ross deserves better than that. what's the distinction for Ross to experience an organisation like yours? Ross has done all that. Ross has paid to go. So Ross has worked in a cafe before. He paid to go and work there based on training or whatever you want to learn as, whatever you want to cuddle it up as. But everyone's going there to see Ross. People are not using that cafe because it does fantastic toast. they're just not they're going based on the staff like people don't buy from standout based on the fact that i mean the socks are amazing just let me i just want to throw my but people don't buy our standout because of our socks people stand buy from standout because of our staff and our mission um so ross is filling a cafe and he's paying to go i'm like this doesn't makes sense how's this making sense you know mark work whatever you want to call it for pays 60 quid to go somewhere on a different day he pays 60 quid to go he makes bird boxes or you know tidies the gardens up and people and then they sell the bird boxes they don't get any money from that either.

34:34And then people donate and buy off them based on their stuff. They don't buy from them because it's a fantastically cut edge. So that drives me bonkers.