268. Does complaining at work rewire your brain? PLUS! Gen Z growth hunting, wellbeing perks and how to manifest success

0:01Coming up this week in work. I have a new word. I'll explain it properly in just a bit. It's a new way people are treating work and it matters for anyone who hires or manages a team. Also this week, new research out of Stanford suggests constant complaining actually rewires your brain. So those teams that moan together are actually training themselves to be less resilient. So what should leaders do when griping becomes the default? And in truth or lie, we take on manifestation. Can visualising success actually change outcomes or does imagining the win make you do less of the work that matters?

0:35I've read the evidence and I'll give you the verdict. And in the workplace surgery, one listener asks, what's the earliest sign of burnout you should spot before someone actually admits it? So how do you catch it early and what actually helps? This is Truth, Lives and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Al, I'm a business owner and I'm here to ask the questions you might be afraid to. And my name is Leanne, I'm a charge of occupational psychologist and I'm here to answer them.

1:04And together we help you simplify the science of work and build amazing workplace cultures. We'll be right back after a quick word from our sponsors. HubSpot makes impossible growth impossibly easy for their customers and here's a perfect example. Leigh, your turn. Morehouse College needed to reach new students with fresh engaging content But with a massive 900-page website, even the tiniest updates took 30 minutes to publish. Breeze, which is HubSpot's collection of AI tools, helped them write and optimize their content in just a fraction of the time. The results? 30 % more page views, and visitors now spend 27 % more time on their site.

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1:52hello hello welcome back welcome back happy tuesday if you're listening tuesday i'm not sure people do you reckon people listen tuesday i suppose rather than let's see what'll show us i think danny does yeah yeah i usually accidentally message danny on a tuesday evening he's like i'm you're literally coming in my ear that's a reference from peter k which incidentally phoenix nights is 25 years old this year i think it is no it's not it is don't stop it phoenix nights is brilliant i'm so old i know i know on a bright note happy squirrel happy national squirrel association no what is it happy national squirrel appreciation day that's just nuts i love that happy so where did you find that so i was looking at you know they have those like lists of like international days oh today's national jelly day or something yeah yeah because i try and like i try and keep things fairly topical or there's something happening link it in you know like we talked about Blue Monday last week and all that kind of stuff.

2:48But there's not much else going on this month. But today is National Squirrel Appreciation Day. Unless they're living in your attic, then I think we should all appreciate squirrels. Yeah. Do you know who does appreciate a squirrel? Is it our hound? Peanut. Peanut the Pedenco. Pedenco is like a Spanish hunting breed and he's kind of like probably 70 % it. But God, he loves a squirrel. Loves a squirrel. He does. He's had a squirrel toy since he was a pup. That's always his favourite. We actually, oh, we're proper like dog parents. We've actually got a spare just in case he loses it. Oh, we're on squirrel like version four.

3:23But it's the same toy. It's like Trigger's broom. Anyway, so we didn't come here to talk about squirrels. Although, although, although, I tell you what, I'd like your opinion on this, listen. Get on to LinkedIn, tell us. We took down a Christmas tree yesterday. Yeah, we did. So what do you think about that? I look forward to your letters. Okay, Lee, what time is it? It is time for the News Roundup. It's my favourite time of the week. Didn't mention that. You don't need to. It's not contractual. Okay, cue jingle. Yeah, jingle being cued. Lee, what have you seen? I've got a new word. Okay, you alluded to this in the intro.

3:58What is your new word? Can I say a new word if it's two words? A new phrase. A new phrase? I feel like a phrase needs to be more than two words. When does a word not become a word when there's two of them? Yeah. Your two by-word phrase. Yeah. Catch. Term. There you go. I have new term. It doesn't really work, does it? No. What's your term? Growth hunting. Carefully say that. He's a right growth hunter, isn't he? Okay, well, growth hunting. So I usually guess growth hunting is in the context of what? Recruitment, engagement, management, business? Yeah, all those things. Is it just simply trying to get more growth?

4:42Growth from what? In what way? Like you, darling, you're like four foot eight and you're growth hunting all the time, I think. Yeah. No, is it more like you're trying to grow the business? No, it's more of an individual employee thing, actually. Okay, school me. I will school you. This comes from our friend of the show, Jeff LeBlanc. Love Jeff. Yeah, we love Jeff. if you haven't listened to his episode. If you've not come across Jeff, he is a lecturer at Bentley University. He has been tracking how Gen Z approaches the workplace and a brilliant piece for Fast Company. He suggests that younger workers aren't job hunting, they're growth hunting.

5:25Oh, I see. So they're not chasing titles, they're not waiting around for promotions, they're looking for momentum, progress, movement. They're in a hurry, Al. The kids are in a hurry. They just can't wait for tomorrow, can they? No, and if they can't find that where they are they're going to move on and they're going to do it without guilt so this comes from a study jeff quoted from youngstown state university which surveyed 1 000 full-time professionals in the u.s the results showed that nearly half of gen z workers are already planning to leave their current roles not for higher pay but for better growth and that figure was higher than any other generation surveyed.

6:02So 86 % of Gen Z won't pursue upskilling unless their employer helps to fund it. So they're looking for the money as well. 43 % say they're too burnt out to take on extra learning outside of work hours. And 76 % say cost is the biggest barrier to their development, not ambition or interest. So what Jeff is basically saying in his article, that this isn't impulsiveness or disloyalty it's a logical response to how work is currently structured and actually points to a wider problem that many companies promote the idea of growth but in practice they expect employees to figure it out for themselves to fund it scheduled it squeeze it in around full workload so Jeff says that growth hunting is Gen Z taking that development talk at face value if leaders say they value learning then Gen Z expects to see action and when it's missing they move on our thoughts well that makes sense Gen Z they are booking the trend very much I mean there's lots of studies I seem to think there's as many studies out there showing that Gen Z want more money as they want more opportunities but I sense from the very limited sample survey I've had with Gen Z is that it's not necessarily about the money it's about it's not about the money money money money money money it's about just want to make the world dance was that Gina G?

7:25no Xer it was Jessie J I knew it was I knew it was someone with a single single letter anyway so she's had a tough time hasn't she J? yeah she had breast cancer and stuff and then I think she got like dropped from her label and then all sorts of things going on keep it light this is light she's back on top now oh is she yeah yeah she's got new new songs out and they're quite catchy they're a bit they're a bit shouty no they're a bit what's the right was a polite word mumsy oh i'm not sure that's a polite word no i'm not sure it is might get cancelled for that anyway i'll do you saying about gen z uh yeah sorry jesse uh if you're listening sorry about that uh gen z yeah look the fact is that they want different things out of out of work i think and it is cool they obviously want to learn new skills i have a sneaking suspicion they want to learn new skills so they can do some kind of side hustle with them I think they're using work to bank the training so that they can potentially use it themselves.

8:27And good for them as someone who is unemployable. I appreciate it. I fully support that. Yeah, or they're trying to diversify income streams. It's whatever spin you want to give that, isn't it? I think, do you know what? I don't think Gen Z necessarily want anything that we all don't want. They're just louder about it. They're more open about it. I have seen this in clients I've worked with where they've done they've done half of the work so they'll be like they'll put in place like a development fund for people and then question why people aren't taking it up and it's usually because well they don't know what is necessarily available they haven't been coached through what development might be useful for them now in the future and they're expected to do it amongst a very busy busy day job and there just isn't the time so I think what I like about this is Jeff kind of really pointing out that yes that growth hunting is important but it's not just about making development opportunities available it's about funding them it's about making these career pathways clear it's about promoting based on capability so if you want to promote somebody to a management role here's a crazy idea why don't you train them in management skills so I think it's I think it's kind of obvious i think it's probably around for ages i love that that jeff has put a a term that makes sense and feels like it is yeah it it's reasonable i don't think it's outrageous i like it nice one jeff jeff is a jeff's already he's been on a couple of times i think on the show hasn't he but we've got a what episode is it is it about 200 and something 207 yeah we had a really good conversation about gen z about burnout about empathy and what that looks like in action and if you're interested in more on that he does have a new book out it is called engaged empathy leadership it's out now it is packed with lots of practical stuff really on how to lead with both both heart and structure and that again is why i love jeff's work it's about this lovely balance isn't it being empathetic isn't about being soft it's about being fair and his model is completely science back backed and it does focus as i said on this balance of fairness and kindness and accountability, which let's be honest, a lot of teams need right now.

10:41Yep. So if you're looking for a new book to read in 2026, Engaged Empathy Leadership is definitely one of them. He's also a funny guy. He's from Boston, I think, and he schooled me on doughnuts. He said something about Boston doughnuts are different to other doughnuts, if I recall. I think I cut that bit out of the interview. We'll leave the link to his book, his episode and Boston doughnuts in the show notes. I'll let you see them. Okay, so I saw an article this morning on X, which was about complaining and how it's proven to literally rewire your brain. X, I do like X, but a lot of stuff on X tends to be just a bit made up.

11:16This one's actually based on research at Stanford. You may have heard of Stanford. It appears in Stanford Medical News, and there is a link in the show notes. Here's the basics, right? So complaining literally rewires your brain. So if you repeatedly vent, then you're going to strengthen what they call the neural circuits linked to stress, threat detection and negativity. In other words, you're literally rewiring it to vent and to complain. Secondly, your brain obviously gets better at what it practices. So thanks to neuroplasticity, did I say that right? Yeah, yeah, okay. The more you complain, the more efficient your brain becomes at spotting problems and anticipating the worst.

11:53Thirdly, temporary frustration can become a default mindset. So over time, this shifts baseline stress levels upwards, making everyday irritations feel bigger and more emotionally charged. I definitely know some people who are like that. And finally, negativity becomes automatic, not deliberate. Once these pathways dominate, the brain starts interpreting the world through a threat-first lens, even when nothing serious is wrong. Because I did door-to-door sales back when I was a kid, and it was one of these companies that were like, hey, let's talk about Tony Robbins in the morning, and just try and take your mind over the fact that you're going to be in the cold, all the snow, for eight hours, knocking on doors, being told to piss off.

12:36Then I sort of got into this mindset now of I don't complain about stuff I don't think. I think I just, if something's really bad, I'll get a little bit annoyed for a few minutes, then I'll just try and move on. Lee, what are your thoughts? I don't think you complain much either. I think we complain about the same as each other probably a fair amount. Yeah. We get frustrated when things happen that we're a blocker to our goals or get in the way or feel unfair. Do we complain, complain? I don't think so. And the reason I feel fairly confident is I have a very physiological reaction when I'm around people who are very negative.

13:17Yeah. Like I want to run away as fast as I can. Probably after slapping them with some kind of fish. What would be your official choice? Ooh. You don't want anything too aggressive. No. So we're not talking like a sea bass or bream that got quite like spiky fins. And you don't want anything too big like a salmon or a tuna. You could kill someone that way. Yeah, you really could. I'd say like a medium-sized sardine. I agree. Not the little ones you get in the tins. No, not like a squat. About the same size as perhaps the palm of your hand or something, I suppose. Oh yeah, the size of your hand.

13:51like base to top of middle finger. Yeah, small mackerel, large sardine, perhaps a medium-sized pilchard. Pilchard is the word to say. Yeah. Anyway, that wasn't one of the news articles about. So why this matters at work, it's that the whole point is if you're in a team that just sort of normalizes this complaining, you may unintentionally train each other into lower resilience. You might be more likely to react quickly and that's obviously going to affect, well, obviously, but in my opinion, is going to affect your decision making because you're always looking at the negative side. Now, the good news is that the research highlighted by the Stanford University School of Medicine, I was looking to see if that got a fun acronym, but it's called the SUSM, shows that these pathways can be redirected, but only once people understand what's happening.

14:38They need to consciously practice different responses. And you know what? If you are a negative person, I hate to get all like universe and woo-woo, but I do think you manifest what you think about all the time. And I think if you're constantly thinking the world is a bit shit, then the world will be a bit shit. Isn't there like some kind of thing where, I forget what it's called, and reticular activation or something, where if you think about a red car, you're going to go and buy a car and suddenly you see that type of car all over the road. Is there a name for that? Do you know it? Probably.

15:13I don't know that off my head. If I can find it out and edit it back in, seamlessly and so I think that's the thing if you look at things negatively you expect things to go wrong and you you're just waiting for the hammer to fall then it will because you'll notice the small things anyway I'm getting a bit on my high horse here so no I think I think you're absolutely right that's where kind of all this positive psychology stuff makes sense isn't it things like gratitude journaling and being hopeful and optimistic and practicing that is something you in practice and it does literally change change the the way your brain is white i watched something from jimmy carl the other day um by the way i'm getting loads of stuff on um on on tick shorts what do we call it tick tube youtube shorts i'm getting a load of stuff from jimmy carl at the moment of him being quite serious um and quite interesting and like you know so philosophical and this one particular one um he basically said that he does gratitude journaling at night that's what he does at night he says and i don't just like write down i'm so grateful to be a you you know, to be a world famous comedian, which is why you see his words exactly.

16:13He said, I'm just grateful that today this happened and today that happened. And I'm a huge believer in that. It's not wanky woo-woo. It is something that just helps you remind that a hundred things happened today. Generally, three of them will be bad. Sixty will be medium. And then there'll be some good stuff in there to remind you anyway. And like all these things, there is a technique to it. So if you are gratitude journaling, things like being very specific about what you're grateful for, linking it to people rather than stuffs. and remembering to be grateful for any kind of pain that's been taken away, not just things that are kind of good.

16:47So what was it? Oh, you had a sore tummy the other day, right? Oh, three days I had a sore tummy. We brought some Gorgonzola back from Italy and it sat in the car for eight hours whilst we drove back from Italy to Mostar in Bosnia-Herzegovina. And I'm not sure it did it any good at all because I had some stupid thing to have it late at night. When I say late at night, I'm an old person who's about half past nine. had some on Monday and then Tuesday Wednesday Thursday oh my goodness I honestly thought I was dying I thought I was going to have to get Leanne out of bed and take me to hospital it was awful and then suddenly I woke up the next morning it was gone and so that's something to put in your gratitude journal exactly and it almost it's almost worth having that stomach ache almost just to feel better the next morning anyway what else do you see my love I saw a very cool article in Fortune by somebody called Christina Lee who has just joined Slate the company as head of marketing and she shared a thought about burnout and well-being and as there's so much around at the moment about burnout and well-being I thought this was a very different take and something that is incredibly practical and I think every organisation should really think about in terms of how they put together their benefits particularly this time of year we're sometimes rethinking those aren't they her suggestion and it started through a LinkedIn post was fairly simple she said why not offer a cleaning service stipend what's a stipend a budget allowance for cleaning yes cleaning employees homes oh i think meant at work no so so so basically a company would go there you go there's x amount a month a month and you can go and get a cleaner yeah that's cool for a couple of reasons isn't it yeah i like that go on why do you like it i like it because um i love a clean home even though i don't really like cleaning uh nobody not nobody some people really some people do get kicks from cleaning but then And also it's helping fuel the economy a little bit by getting more work.

18:40And you're basically employing potentially two people for the same price. I like that. True that, yeah. So Christina's argument was that while wellness things like gym perks are fine, they don't work for everybody. Not everyone wants to spend their limited free time on a treadmill. But for a lot of people, she said, a clean home does far more for their well-being than another thing to add to the schedule. So her point was rather than kind of give me something I have to do, take something off my plate. It's very practical. It's very human. Yeah, I really, really liked it. Now, what she didn't expect, this was a LinkedIn post, just a thought from the sky out of things that could be useful to have as a wellness perk.

19:21What she didn't expect was for her company to act on it. So the next day, Slate's HR team got in touch to say they'd seen the post, loved the idea, and leadership had agreed to add it as a benefit. Brilliant. Please tell me they're calling the benefit Clean Slate. Oh, this is why they pay the big marketing books. Nobody pays you the big marketing books. Sorry, you wouldn't have flow. They should. Yeah, so employees now receive a$200 monthly cleaning budget paid via a company credit card or it's reimbursed, which HR said made particularly sense, given that Slate is also fully remote. Of course it does.

20:00It makes all the sense. I want to work for Slate. So do I. Eric Stark is the co-founder if you want to go stalk him on LinkedIn he said the idea Stalking Stark he said the idea stood out precisely because it wasn't grand or flashy he said that you don't need expensive programs to make a difference sometimes the most impactful benefits come from listening closely and removing friction from people's lives yes Eric yes Eric Eric gets it be more Eric I did do a little dip into the research just because again it feels like you said a clean home just feels like a clean mind doesn't it and I think that is one of those cliche phrases that they put on like fridge magnets or something um but there is actually some psychology behind it there's not loads of research but the research that is has consistently shown that cluttered home environments are actually linked to higher stress and lower well-being and this was from a study actually published just last year that people who experience their home as chaotic or visually overwhelming report feeling mentally drained and it affects their mood and life satisfaction as well so there really is genuinely a link between not only giving people time back which is a massive thing in terms of our of our well-being and our sense of of self and control and detachment from work but it actually does have links to improved well-being and and mood and satisfaction so yeah i love it slate bravo well done slate well done slate right okay just before we take a very short break i want to quickly remind everyone that amy mccowan friend of the show um she's uh you'll see her on linkedin We're always having arguments on LinkedIn.

21:29She has a senior strategy circle that she's launching this January. It's called Do Workplace Health Right? It is a 12-week program. It's closer, she describes it, closer to an executive MBA discussion group than any kind of training program. There's loads of great stuff on that. I've not got the time to tell you about all of it. But Leanne Elliott, I believe she's you. She's going to be involved in it. You should definitely get involved in that. If you are interested, just check out the show notes. Then there'll be a link there to go and have a look at it. I believe there's about three or four days left for you to sign up.

22:00There's some really, really quite big speakers on there, including Leanne, obviously. And then also the people who are coming. They're coming from all kinds of things. Like we've got HR directors, we've got occupational directors, we've got people from Saudi Aramco. That's probably mean something to someone. University of York, there's all kinds of people there. So I think it might be right up your streets. Go and have a check it out. Yeah, it should be good. It's basically like everything you've heard about well-being that just feels really detached and unpersonal and not very effective. It's about going, let's just forget about that and talk about what actually works.

22:35Yes, absolutely. So go and check that out in the show notes. Right, we'll see you in just a second for our Truth or Lie segment. We'll see you soon. Billion Dollar Moves, hosted by Sarah Chen Spellings, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination of business professionals. Join venture capitalist and strategist Sarah Chen Spellings as she asks the hard questions and learns through the triumphs, failures and hard lessons of the creme de la creme so you too can make billion dollar moves in venture, in business and in life. Maybe start with episode 124 where you're going to hear how industry giants from Canva to YouTube define leadership.

23:09Listen to Billion Dollar Moves wherever you get your podcasts.

23:17Okay, welcome back. Time for Truth or Lie, our weekly myth-busting segment where we take a big psychological claim and ask is it true or is it a lie it's january it's that weird time of the year we're all a bit tired i suppose we're saying we're reflective but actually a lot of us are just tired i see that all over linkedin i'm reflecting on 2025 no you're not you just you just want to look like you are but i hope that we all are quietly ambitious and i hope that we're telling ourselves that this is the year that things are going to change and if you spent any time online recently you'll have seen one idea everywhere you'll see in books you'll see on socials in podcasts in wellness spaces even in business circles the idea is that if you manifest success i if you visualize it clearly enough believe in it clear enough align your thoughts with it success will come to you so this week's question is a big one and one a lot of people genuinely want to know the answer to can you manifest success by just visualizing it it's a good one isn't it it's a good one i think before we go any further I just want to be really clear about what we mean by manifestation because it can get a bit muddled so manifestation as it's usually talked about isn't just imagining yourself doing something well it's the belief that thoughts themselves have a kind of causal power so if you picture the promotion the relationship the confidence the money and really believe it's coming then the universe your subconscious or reality itself will somehow rearrange things in your favor okay that is different from what psychologists call visualization so visualization has been studied for years and it's about basically mentally rehearsing things in your head so the actions the steps preparing your mind and your body to do something difficult these two things often get bundled together but psychologically they're doing very different things so i just wanted to kind of mention that so visualization is not just sitting there dreaming about winning the lottery visualization is actually visualization that's a bad example visualization is not about it's a fine example but if you sit there manifesting that you're going to win a lottery but never actually buy a ticket it's not going to happen is it true true but i was thinking more like you know some of the sports people like David Beckham for example he talks a lot about it where he will visualize and also there's a it's a it's a winter sport I want to say the luge or something is that mean something no maybe I've just used a rude word that I don't understand but the luge where they where they actually visualize they visualize going down the course and then when they have to turn left okay like the bobsled that's probably what it is yes exactly there should be a film about that or something I put John Candy in there anyway I feel like I've take my slightly off course visualize manifest cool got it yes so in terms of can this mental imagery actually help us there is no question at all that mental imagery can influence behavior that's not controversial in psychology that's just kind of like fact at this point one of the clearest examples comes from as you mentioned al sport psychology so in a controlled study they took absolute beginner golfers researchers wanted to see whether imagining the task would make any difference to how people trained so everybody learned the basics of putting that's the last bit when you put the ball in the hole yep yep i don't know southerners would say putting putting yeah yes one group was also taught how to use imagery so how to picture the movement the timing the feel of the action the sequence involved in a successful put you can see like the movie kind of yeah of that moment can't you what changed wasn't skill overnight necessarily but it was behavior so the people using imagery practiced more often they practiced for longer they set clearer goals and were more consistent outside of the experiment lab so basically imagining the task didn't make them magically better it made them more engaged with the work of getting better makes sense yeah a similar pattern also showed up in a much larger study looking at physical activity.

27:25So researchers worked with 182 adults who weren't exercising at all and trained them to use different kinds of imagery over four weeks. So some imagine the outcome, so feeling fitter, healthier. Some imagine the process, so putting on your trainers, going outside, moving your body. And they're just imagining it at this point, visualizing it. Yeah. And some combine the two. So by the end of the study, it wasn't necessarily that the people using imagery were transformed but they were doing more physical activity than those who didn't so the researchers basically found that the imagery increased planning intention and follow through so the imagery didn't cause the behavior it supported it that makes sense yeah and across the research that is the consistent finding that mental imagery can help people by increasing motivation, reducing anxiety, clarifying goals and making the action feel much more manageable.

28:23Love it. That makes perfect sense to me because often it's like that's the biggest problem is actually going out there and putting your shoes on and going out for a run. Yeah. Even just putting your shoes on and going out for a walk sometimes. You're just like, oh, well, I'll do it later. I'll just have a piece of chocolate sort of thing. Exactly. Exactly. So that's the case for. That's the case for. I'm one by now. I'm, yep. Okay. I agree. It's not, but now we need to hear the case against yes well this is more the case for manifestation so what we just heard about is visualization it's that mental imagery right remember i said that manifestation is a little bit different yeah so in terms of studies that have looked at manifestation itself it's not quite as convincing but it is still maybe useful so in one large study research has measured how strongly people believe that thoughts alone could create success and they also looked at very concrete outcomes of things like income education financial stability people who believe strongly in manifestation tended to feel more optimistic and more confident about the future but that belief had no relationship with actual success markers like income or education so basically feeling hopeful made them feel better about themselves but didn't actually turn into better outcomes.

29:40More so, strong belief in manifestation was linked at times to overconfidence and poor financial decisions because people were more likely to underestimate risk and assume that things would work out and end up in a bit of a pickle. So the explanation that researchers gave was fairly straightforward and you probably got there yourself, is that if you believe success is guaranteed by belief alone, then you're less likely to check in with reality, seek feedback, or actually do the work that's needed to help move things forward. And other studies have shown a similar problem when people focus on imagining success without imagining how they'll get there.

30:19So without vividly picturing the steps and just the end result, it can create a premature sense of reward. So the brain feels a bit like the goal has already been achieved when it can actually reduce motivation. When researchers then looked at students using visualization, the effects were only positive when the imagery was tied to effort strategy and practice so it is again this mental imagery of the process as well as the outcome so imaging manifestation itself didn't improve performance and all of the research basically gives you the same same result thinking feels productive but it's actually the action which is productive so yes manifestation does have a role and as we've heard from the research people who manifest these things these successful outcomes do feel more hopeful and more confident so it's not to say that manifestation isn't necessarily a good thing so long as it is tied with also the visualization of the process that's needed to get you there so it is a lie that you can manifest success just by picturing the outcome but what is true is that the imagery the visualization can help you act so when people imagine the process the steps the effort the moment that they usually avoid then they do practice more they plan better and they stick with it longer so imagery works when you picture doing and achieving i love it i love it so i think manifestation i think a lot of people they they believe if they manifest something is magic and it's going to appear and unfortunately there are lots and lots of stories out there of someone who went oh i imagined this every single day and then i came home and there was a big check waiting for me or i'd won the lottery or or this person stopped me in the street and said can you come work for me i've got i'll give you a million pounds a month and obviously those stories are stories because they are not the norm they're the the rule that whatever that phrase is it's against the practice of the thing the exception not the rule that's the exception that proves the rule i just dipped into my big word bag there and just pulled out a random load of words i think as well it massively like and that what kind of frustrates me when when people talk about their success stories through this oh yeah i manifested this and i i did that and it's it's like you're taking away from all the effort and work that you've put in talk about the work talk about the effort and i think that's where you and I really get our kicks from talented people so we'll like listen to interviews with like famous singers that we have no real interest in but we'll hear about the hustle and the grind and how they played like underground gigs for 10 years and then suddenly had overnight success and and you and I appreciate that we appreciate the and actually all of us do we we like to hear about the effort we we we value the outcome more so value that in yourself as well invest in the process totally agree totally agree and i think it's very lazy thinking really just i'm going to manifest some things like no you're not you're gonna have to get up your ass and do something about it what's the um little i said the little ginger kid he's probably about 30 um music ed sheeran yes sorry am i boring you yeah just immediate reaction i have to ed sheeran i was just so tired of his voice yeah no he's insanely talented but yes um i'm sure even ed's a bit sick of ed sheeran himself but you know the stories of him playing and their actual youtube videos have been playing to like 30 people yeah 12 or something and wasn't it that he couldn't get into like the solo guitar slots open mic because they're always full right so he booked onto the hip-hop ones instead right did he yeah the least likely uh the least like hip-hop although um i'm trying god you know i'm so terrible at names jamie fox is a great interview on graham norton with jamie fox and how he introduced Ed Sheeran to a room full and his words a room full of very black black black people and and it it didn't go the way you think so anyway right okay so is there anything else to add to that love no I feel like I just just shut the door on that go manifest and visualize I am manifesting some amazing answers to this week's surgery questions which are coming up right now question one Leanne what's the earliest sign of burnout but it really is burnout's that gift that keeps on giving you i just see it everywhere at the moment so someone wrote in said um hi alan leanne in your experience was the first sign of burnout that tends to show up this is before someone's actually able to admit they're burnt out not the obvious stuff like crashing and taking time off but the subtle early signs people often miss i'm trying to spot it earlier in myself and my team okay so am i understanding this right then that this is someone who wants to kind of spot it before potentially even the person realizes sounds like that doesn't it all or in themselves so burnout has three main symptoms according to the official definition that we get from the world health organization that's basically exhaustion so that's not just feeling tired that's periods of of extreme tiredness over a long period it also includes cynicism so basically the negative thoughts we were talking about before in in your stanford research al and detachment from work so just not not get excited by it not really kind of feeling it anymore they're the main three three areas there's no i don't believe any research that says which one might appear first or second or third or in what order i think it's quite an individual experience but anecdotally and i say because there might well be research out there and i haven't read it anecdotally i think the proper exhaustion is the one that comes last i think that's when people like literally crash i think was it sally clark that told the story of how she was visiting her brother and walking through the airport got into his arms and literally just collapsed fainted because she was so exhausted so i think more than likely detachment from work feelings of cynicism feeling negative just yeah being meh i think is probably some some signs particularly if people are that you know them to be more positive or more objective or even realistic if you start to this negativity creeping that could be a sign I think any changes in behavior in appearance could be a sign to anybody who is maybe used to really been to a hobby and aren't engaging in that anymore people who might be drinking more people who might be using drugs or you know kind of want to find that high it could be i remember kate donovan talking about this who's a burnout expert has been on the show a couple of times one of her things that she always talked about was like if you're not finding time in your day to go to the bathroom you're burning out right and i've done that in my career at various points i'm like i just need to finish this i just need to finish this and i'd be dying for a wee but i'd be still like no i need to get this done that i'd stop those moments of very basic self-care so i think that's a good example as well from from kate and then any other aspects of self-care as well.

37:25So I think there's subtle signs in yourself as well you might experience physiological signs like stomach ache, hair loss can be a sign of stress. There's lots of different things that could point to burnout in a way far before it gets to any kind of significant point but I'd look for any subtle changes in behaviour, any things that people loved, they're not engaging with anymore or anything around self-care, change in appearance or just how someone's looking after themselves could be a sign. So is it possible that someone will go through a period of cynicism, all those three things, cynicism, detachment and exhaustion?

38:08And it's not burnout, it's just that they are perhaps a little bit ill or they're at the end of a project which is a bit boring or a bit stressful and then it wouldn't develop into burnout. Absolutely. Yeah. Burnout, these are all of these symptoms over a prolonged period of time is having a detrimental effect on health and performance and relationships and every aspect of our life. So burnout is a very chronic issue and is very detrimental to people's life and work and relationships. so yes people will feel detached from work from time to time they'll feel really tired if they're they're working long hours they might feel a bit cynical if they've got a really rubbish manager so there's going to be pockets where we will feel these things and perhaps all of them together for a shorter period of time but the idea is that it's it's an intense feelings of exhaustion and detachment and cynicism for a prolonged period of time i think that's possibly talking to the person who's written in with this question that's probably the problem you're going to have is that you're looking for early signs of burnout and the whole point is that burnout you probably only notice it when it's mid to late because um that's gonna be over a prolonged period of time or is that unfair i think the more it depends how well you know a person right so you'll notice signs in me when i start to feel a bit burnt out i'll probably go a bit quieter a bit more inward i would say it's like if someone's turned the volume down from 10 to 8 or 6 with you Yeah, lose a little bit of brightness.

39:41So if you know somebody really well, you will see the signs. If you don't know them so well, then yeah, they will be harder to spot, which is why in an employee situation, you also want to be looking at well-being from an organisational level. So the things that talked about quite a bit recently, these psychosocial risk factors, the environment you're creating. you can also include this and should be including it and we include it in our employee insight survey that we do with our clients is a measure of well-being that will look at burnout that will look at positivity that will look at um basically if people are feeling cynical or not hopeful about the future of the organization so we can provide a composite score of well-being for the client and give them a norm as well in terms of how that's looking so it's not just a case of going oh everyone's feeling wonderful it's a case of saying everybody is feeling levels of well-being that are in line with an average point that's not problematic you know it's not always about being like happy and bouncy it's just not being burnt out basically so you can include it as well in your employee insight survey and you should be doing that as well yeah if you're interested in more of that then check out Kate Donovan's episodes check out her podcast check out she's got an upcoming book from um um quite a new publishing house called blue goat books uh it's got it's got a book coming out uh so definitely what second book i think maybe even third second yeah second yes i go and check her out leanne's looking over my shoulder see if she can find the at the first one which should be somewhere behind us yes we're about um we're about two months away from moving our house and i have noticed that we've got a little bit of burnout in this house in the we're not putting things back to exactly we we quite liked having all our books in one place and everything yeah we're a bit detached aren't we a little detached Attached we are.

41:24Anyway, on to question number two. Is it really that hard to find a good manager? Leanne. Yes. Next question. Leanne. This person writes, I'm trying to take a bit of a step back from the day to day of running my business and bringing someone in to run things properly on the ground. The problem is finding the right manager feels like a bit of a minefield. I know how much I handle myself and it might take two people to fully replace me. Okay. What I'm wondering is how hard is it really to find someone solid someone you can trust to run things without it all falling apart oh lee it's really hard to find someone solid it's really hard to find something you can trust without things falling apart but i'd say this is like step five and we're still in step one right you know i mean what's really good is you kind of said that it might take two people to fully replace me and that is a question you have to answer in terms of the areas of your current role that you want to hand over that you should hand over and they're going to be two different things because there might be some kind of admin more base task that you really enjoy doing but but somebody of your position shouldn't be spending their time doing those things so it's really going through your day probably for a couple of weeks maybe even a month and kind of just writing down everything that you're doing what's taking up your time your energy and with that what do you want to hand over to get more energy back so anything that you are spending your time doing that you hate and is taking energy away from you that's something you definitely want to hand over to somebody else anything that is beyond your capability so founders will be like be everything won't they there'll be ops there'll be marketing there'll be socials there'll be finance and it might be that you really like instagram but if you're not very good at it that might be something to hand off to somebody else as well.

43:11Same with, you know, marketing in general, it might be that there are some areas of expertise that now's a good time to bring into your business. What you're basically doing there is a very informal job analysis in terms of what the tasks that you want to hand over are and the frequency of them. You can start to allocate a time period to that as well. So you might be looking for three part-time people rather than one full-time person. It could be that you need to split out this role, just be able to find people with the right expertise that you can trust and they can handle it all for you without things falling apart rather than trying to expect to find one person who is a jack of all trades who can take on all these various different things that you're currently doing as a founder.