278. Gen-Z Office trends, unlimited holiday leave and silent disengagement. PLUS! Do people really leave managers, not jobs?

0:01Coming up this week in work. Good news, everybody. It's only 23 days until spring. Yay! Bad news, though. It's going to be the worst 23 days of winter. Ooh, you spoil everything. Sorry. New research explains why the final stretch of anything tedious like winter feels harder than the beginning and what you can do about it. Now, we keep hearing about Gen Z and how they don't want to work in the office. But one 24-year-old is commuting four hours a day just to be in the office and she's actually not alone. So are young workers finally leading the charge back into the office? And in truth or lie, you've heard it a thousand times.

0:40People don't leave bad jobs, they leave bad managers. But does the research actually back that up? Or is there something else that drives us to quit? I've done a little research and I've got an answer. And in the workplace, surgery is unlimited holiday brilliant or just confusing? One business owner is not sure if it's genuinely working or just sounds good on paper. This is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Al, I'm a business owner and I'm here to ask the questions you might be afraid to.

1:13And my name is Leanne, I'm a charter occupational psychologist and I'm here to answer them and together we help you simplify the science of work and build amazing workplace cultures. We'll be right back after a quick word from our lovely sponsors. HubSpot makes impossible growth impossibly easy for their customers. And here's a perfect example. Lee, your turn. Morehouse College needed to reach new students with fresh, engaging content. But with a massive 900-page website, even the tiniest updates took 30 minutes to publish. Breeze, which is HubSpot's collection of AI tools, helped them write and optimize their content in just a fraction of the time.

1:51The results, 30 % more page views and visitors now spend 27 % more time on their site. If you're ready for impossible growth like this, visit HubSpot.com.

2:06Hello, hello. Welcome back. Welcome back, Lee. I've got, I need to tell you what happened this morning because it was a bit weird. But before we do, just a big thank you to Natalie Hamner. She helped us to form you. If you've heard me introducing myself slightly differently and Leanne introducing herself slightly differently, it's all down to Natalie Hamner. She was the one who suggested that we did it. So thank you, Natalie. Thank you, Natalie. So got to tell you, right? So this morning, you know some of this story. You don't know all of it. We, if you don't know, listen, we live in Bosnia and Herzegovina, specifically Herzegovina, which is down very near the Croatian border.

2:38It's kind of like, it's kind of like going back in time sometimes. It is a lovely, lovely place. I was driving back from taking the dogs for a walk this morning. this older gentleman flagged me down. And I was like, what? And one thing, which is, have you noticed this particularly in the Balkans, is when someone wants to say, you know, in the UK, we say, come here. We would lift our hand up and we'd beckon someone towards us. In the Balkans, they do it the other way around. Put their hand down and beckon towards you. Have you ever seen that? I've not noticed, no. Well, that's what he did. So I stopped thinking, oh my goodness, is everything all right?

3:08Is there someone falling down the well? He said to me in Bosnia, are you going to Blageye? Which is, I shouldn't have disclosed exactly where we live but yeah are we yep the village I live so I was like yeah and he said which basically I think means I can walked around got in the passenger seat and said okay so I was taking this bloke to black eye and he's chattering away all the way in Bosnian and dropped him off at the supermarket he was like thank you very much all right off he goes and even the dogs were like who's this guy and I was like I don't know guys I have no idea who he is that's a nice thing to do though yeah I mean to be fair I'm probably going to see him most mornings now so he's going to be like most mornings getting in the car but yeah I thought it was quite funny he didn't seem bothered at all that he was getting into a British car and sitting in where he would normally sit to drive he was just like chatting away anyway but that wasn't the only thing that happened this morning you've had quite an eventful morning back at Christmas I'm such an old man back at Christmas I went back to the UK and Leanne and I both bought lovely dressing gowns and lovely slippers because it does get cold in the Balkans.

4:12It gets really cold. And so I got these lovely little booty slippers and I love them and I wear them every single day. And so I sat outside this morning, put my walking boots on, kind of like on a terrace at the back of our garden. Came back this morning, came back after the dogs, after dropping off, you know, Yossip. Hope he had a good day. One of my slippers was gone. And I was like, Lee, have you moved my slippers? She's like, I haven't been outside. Turns out I'd left the gate slightly open. a wild dog, there's quite a few live around here, a wild dog would come in, grab my slipper I found it about half a kilometre down the road So it's been a bit of a strange morning.

4:48Leigh has your morning been a strange or weak? No, well mine's been quite uneventful, I have nothing to add really. They're two very good stories that happened on the same morning So you've got all your shoes and you haven't had a random person get in the car How's your Olympics going? They're all over now Oh it's finished it's finished which is awfully sad um although i did it's it gets more and more unhinged as it went on so you know how you were saying that like every event is basically just like skiing but it's like a small ski a long ski one very big ski well there was actually actual skiing and it was called what was it called mountaineering but i think they mountaineering skiing but they they shortened it to mo ski right or something like that or ski mo no ski mo ski mountaineering that was it ski mo so i was watching it and i was like what the is this so they're basically like they're trying to mimic people who go mountaineering and need their skis because it's snowing so they'll be like skiing uphill but they can't so they're kind of like waddling like ducks with their kind of legs really really a part of anyone's skis like a reverse snowplow right and like going up and i'm like okay that's a bit weird but i get it they're going up and then they go down and but then there's another bit where there's stairs what the stairs there's no stairs on a mountain well i'm guessing it's they're mimicking like a more steep mountain bit that you can't like walk ski up so they have to take their skis off, put them in their backpack and then walk up the stairs.

6:29And then we're at the top, they get their skis back out and they ski down. And it was just like, I think it's lost the romance when the skiers are just walking up a pair of wooden stairs. Yeah, it's more like walking towards the apres ski than it is, you know, maybe that's what it is, maybe. Did they stop for any kind of like beverages or anything? I bet the Italians did. I bet the Italians stopped at the top and opened her. A little espresso. No, not that I saw, but the, I can't, who won? I think it was maybe the French that won. And yeah, the Australians came last, but by quite a margin, like about four and a half minutes.

7:09But they were like, come on, John. That's his name. Brad. Kind of tough to practice in Australia, going up a mountain and snow, isn't it? Well, exactly. Who's got stairs and snow in Australia? Anyway. Anyway. Back to business, Lee. Yeah. What have you seen this? Oh, hang on. So we've got to do the jingle first, haven't we? Should we just do the jingle? It's time for the news. What was it? Round up. Keep the jingle out. Going really well. Okay, Lee, what have you seen this week? I've got a new word. Okay. No, I've got a new word. It's bobbins, but I've got a... It's appearing as a new word in inverted commas.

7:43Oh, I thought you meant that now we've run out of words. You've run out of new words and you're just making them up. No, I've... No, this is genuinely something that I saw in the news. It's like, this is a new thing. Is it explaining this? And what's the word? Silent disengagement. That just sounds like rust out or disengagement or... I'm confused because that sounds like it's really obvious. Sounds like quiet quitting as well, doesn't it? Yeah, it sounds like it's really obvious what it is. Yeah, what do you think it is? It's people who disengage quietly. Yeah, but what does that mean? It means that they stop doing the most...

8:16they just phone it in, I think is what the kids say. They phone in their work. They don't do anything. They're not really that bothered about what happens to the company, but they just do it quietly. Yeah. Is that it? Yeah. It's not a new word, guys. It doesn't need... No. Why did you choose it then? Because this is where I'm like, we're just going over the same things again and again and putting it in a new bow and pretending that it hasn't existed for the past 30 years. It's like the Winter Olympics of words where they just make up new things and go, Now we're doing skis going upstairs. Yeah, this is ski mo.

8:51Maybe snort. So basically, it's being framed as the latest workplace trend with the article specifically asking, is it behind the death of office culture? Oh, God. So here's what apparently they mean by it. People are exactly, as you said, people are turning up, logging on, doing what's required. Mentally, they're pulling back a bit. They're speaking less in meetings. They're stopped volunteering for projects. they're sticking to the basics it's not dramatic the article links this to rising dissatisfaction of work and this i hadn't heard this statistic but oh my goodness apparently a 2024 uk study suggested more than 90 percent of people are at least somewhat unhappy in their jobs oh that's a bit of a sad statistic isn't it yeah 90 percent oh my god yeah so the argument is that when enough If people are withdrawing, then culture starts to feel a bit off, the low energy.

9:49And that means that the office doesn't have a spark, apparently. So there was somebody who commented on this. Kick resume, Peter Duras, said that employees need to reflect on what's driving it. Are you ever worked, understimulated, feeling undervalued, and managers need to notice the signs early, or proper one-to-ones recognize contributions and create visible growth pathways? they're describing disengagement Al they're just describing disengagement and we've been studying that properly since at least 2009 when engagement scores started kind of dropping sharply and of course they continue they continue to drop so it isn't new but anyway our thoughts there is a simple solution to this I don't think many people know about and that is to put fruit in the break room ah yes or a ping pong table or a ping pong table bean bags bean bags if you have got the budget then a mindfulness app might be the solution.

10:45Oh, come on. I mean, look, let's be honest. This is, like you say, this has been going on for a while. If it is 90%, I mean, that seems like a very, very, very high level of people who are... What was the word? Was it somewhat unhappy in their jobs? Yes. So it's not, it's probably two statistics. I haven't looked at the original survey lumped together. so it might be something that like 30 percent are somewhat and then like 60 percent are very or something right okay but even somewhat and dissatisfied with their job is quite a lot isn't it is quite a lot and it's quite sad because i don't want to shill our um our product but our product the rx7 which liana has designed basically says there are seven factors of a great workplace and one of the key ones there is role and reason and i think that yeah if you if you know what your role is and you know why you're doing your work and bonus you have the resources to do it I don't think, don't see how you could be unhappy unless you were doing something terrible like your job was to work, I mean, I don't want to say work in an abattoir because I'm sure people do work in abattoirs, it wouldn't be for me, I wouldn't have the right reason, even if my job role was very specific and it was to, well we don't know what happens in an abattoir, moving on Leanne, moving on, what, drag me out of this back, take me out of this horrendous Do you remember when we spoke to Rory Sutherland on the podcast, Name Drop?

12:05Well, he was like, I reckon that all of these return to office mandate things are written by commercial property companies. And they're just slipping it into the press. This screams to me like it's almost like a distraction. Like, look over there! Instead of focusing on the fact that disengagement remains in the toilet. Because leadership is poor. People aren't getting meaningful work. they're not feeling valued or challenged, they're not being treated well. And I think it's just a distraction to look at, again, the office in remote working argument. And do you know what irritates me the most about that argument, Al?

12:42Go on. It doesn't matter. It's context. Yeah. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It's like saying, oh, well, I'm more disengaged because I live in Manchester and you live in Stockport. So what's that got to do with the price of fish? Do you know what I mean? It's context. There's pros and cons to the office. There's pros and cons to working from home and hybrid, everything in between. But the point is, culture isn't about where people physically are, whether it be a building or in their homes. It's about how they feel valued, how they're challenged, how they're treated fairly, and how they're invested in.

13:14And without those things, people withdraw and they'll do it quietly. Sometimes they'll do it politely and other times they'll do it very, very loudly, as we've heard from loud quitting or rage quitting or whatever it is. So I don't think lumping in the office work from home debate into disengagement is necessary. Because it's existed far before we had this even as an option on a large scale. So it's a new word, but I brought it to your attention more in terms of if you're reading stuff like this, just challenge it a little bit in your mind. Think critically. Is this new? Is it a distraction? What is actually happening?

13:50You know, so. there you go anyway rant over what have you seen this week though well kind of similar and a little bit tangential not tangential what does tangential mean tangent is it tangential I think you're going to have to listen you're going to have to write in I look forward to your letters I'm not quite sure exactly is it I mean it's written down but you know a tangent of circle you get a circle you get a line which is a tangent because it's just slightly touching it yeah but it goes off in a different direction well that's what this should be I probably could have said something quite related but a little similar.

14:21No, I enjoyed it. So I saw it. You've got a new word. I've got a new word. Tangenital. That's what my new word is. I don't think you can say genital on the podcast. About to get cancelled. So it was in the BBC. It was either this week or last week. I can't remember when it was. The link is in the show notes. A 24-year-old social media officer called Lily May Edwards. And the story was kind of interesting because I think a lot of people think Gen Z don't want to work in the office. They want to sit in their pyjamas all day. They basically just don't want to be anything to do with other people. they just want to sit and do their work.

14:52This is the opposite. Because Lily May, she lives in North Wales, she works at the University of Liverpool, so rather than move house, she commutes for four hours a day, two hours in, two hours back. Where does she live? North Wales. I know, I'm wondering if she lives kind of round near Mould. Do you know her? But in Liverpool, it's not going to take her four hours. Wait a minute, how is she doing it? She's walking. No, no, so she drives to a station, gets a train, and then the train takes about an hour and a half. and I mean you know the trains in North Wales. Yeah, they're really bad. So it'll take you 40 minutes to get to Chester and then Chester to a level...

15:27Sorry, this is a little bit of a weird train. Sorry, go on. So she's living in North Wales. Are you doubting the validity of BBC's... Are you fact-checking BBC? No, not at all. They never get anything wrong. My point is she basically likes... She enjoys the commute but moreover she's more than willing to do that two hours there, two hours back because she really, really, really enjoys working in the office. So she starts off at 5.30 in the morning. BBC then goes on to say, actually, that there was a 2025 survey of 12 ,000 workers suggesting that Gen Z are actually leading the return to the office, not resisting it.

16:06So this is like, remember Jamie Dimon? And it was like going off saying, what did he say, young people left behind or something by remote working? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. He's basically saying, look, this survey is suggesting, no, it's kind of the opposite. it gen z really want to be in the office um lily may says and i'll read from you she loves physically going somewhere she likes having a purpose she likes seeing friends at work she likes the structure um there was another survey the office for national statistics the ons they say workers aged 30 to 49 are the most likely to be hybrid not gen z which i thought was interesting because i suppose they're more likely to have responsibilities so gen z more likely to be able to go right i want to go in so it looks like actually gen z do want to be in the office as opposed to all the boomers and boring people out there telling you that they don't yeah thoughts yeah this is this has been something that we've been talking about with clients since the early phase of coming out of the pandemic and working from home in terms of is gen z or or earlier career employees at disadvantaged because they're not in an environment where they can observe people more senior than them doing their work and how they talk to clients and how they navigate things and and basically being able to observe that behavior being role modeled and yes that is absolutely true that's not to say that behavior can't be role modeled virtually it just needs to come with a lot more intention and there's not a lot of organizations that have a setup to do this because they don't invest in their leaders in the way that that we should i think there's also a social element as well isn't there for gen z in terms of the kind of going out after work i don't mean that in like the oil and drinking because they don't really do that either do they but that socialization aspect and meeting up after work and particularly if you're living in somewhere rural having an evening in liverpool is going to be very fabulous and i feel like i can say that with some conviction because I lived in North Wales and used to go to Liverpool and Manchester to have some fun.

18:09So yeah, I think it makes sense. I think it's really about being mindful that Gen Z or just early career professionals, and that could be somebody who's in their 30s or 40s but have pivoted into a new industry. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to be in their 20s, but they're going to want to be around people who are more experienced to learn from them and to develop. but that also needs to come with some intention some structure it's not a case of saying oh well if we just go back into the office and we don't we can get rid of that training and development budget no it's not going to be that easy what i'd be very surprised with gen z putting up with though if you remove the kind of the social element of it if they're going into an office where everybody's on zoom calls and everybody's got the headphones in and nobody's talking to each other or their manager isn't there their manager's working from home it has to be really structured intentional as we heard from Ina and Elena who've done a lot of research into hybrid structures so I'm not surprised but I think there is going to be I'm guessing Lily was that her name yes uh let me just look at my notes it was uh not Eleanor um Lily May I hope I'm not doxing her by saying my full name uh Lily May Edwards yeah so it sounds like Lily has got a got a supportive work environment that she's got colleagues that she has positive relationships with and she's experiencing something different and as you said key thing out doesn't have any other responsibilities if you've got kids to pick up from school you're not gonna be able to do a four-hour commute are you no no especially if you if like you have to come back the kid's sick and then you like two hours to get back there yeah absolutely um so i think the key thing here is really just if you're gonna if you're gonna do an rto not mandate but if you are encouraging rto then then just build an office that people want to be.

19:59There's an idea, isn't there? There's an idea. There's an idea. Lee, what else have you seen, my love? It is 23 days until spring. In fact, I think it's actually 24 and a few hours because spring has a very specific date and time. We Googled this the other day, didn't we? We sat there and you said, when's spring start? And I said, oh, I think it's the 21st of March. And you Googled it and it was actually, it actually had a time. Yeah, it does. Let me just get that time in. Can I do a Joe Rogan? Bring that up, Leanne. Bring that up. Yeah, I'm bringing it up. I'm bringing it up. Yes, Friday the 20th of March at 1546 CET.

20:40So that's going to be 1446 GMT if you're in the UK. So there you go. An exact time. Because it's the spring equinox, apparently. So it's that precise. So it's in just over 23 days time, which is very exciting. But bad news. Some of the research I was reading this week suggested it's going to be a long 23 days, my friend. So this was a new study published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. One of my favourite cell. Have you read it? Of course. It's on my nightstand. Of course it is. Old school. so the study suggested that tedious tasks often feel worse when they're nearly finished so if you're on a long boring project at work it actually starts to feel unbearable right near the end right so as you're counting down uh the last little bit so to find this researchers ran a series of studies so in one they surveyed 240 commuters talking about lily on a busy subway journey during rush hour.

21:48Some were already on the train and rated how pleasant and tiring their journey felt. Others were waiting on the platform and they predicted how they expected to feel partway through the ride. And the pattern was really consistent. So people actually on the train reported feeling worse the closer they were to the end of their journey. But those predicting their feelings assumed the opposite. So they thought the progress would make it feel easier, Yeah, like only three more stops, only two more stops. But no, that wasn't the case. It felt harder. The same effect was shown in a study of people who were in mandatory COVID quarantine.

22:23So participants rated boredom and annoyance at around day 11 to 13. Some were halfway through a 21-day quarantine. Others were near the end of a 14-day quarantine. but basically the ones that even though they were on the 14th day reported feeling even more kind of worse about it and tired and frustrated about it even though the end was was nearer in sight so despite having endured kind of the same number of days those closer to finishing reported significantly higher levels of boredom and annoyance i guess the counterintuitive bit here is that you'd think making progress would feel satisfying it'd feel like a relief i've only got a few more days to go I've only got this bit to do but it's actually the the closer that comes to ending the more frustrated we're and exhausted we're feeling and the reason basically the researchers came up for with this are our brains are punishing us for putting them through such a tedious thing and it's not letting us forget it so basically like the more we've endured the more our brain is going to be like what you put me through seriously um and just kind of kind of have a word with yourself.

23:34But there is a small solution. So as part of the experiment, the researchers took 311 participants and asked them to complete a short but very tiring online task. Before starting, half were explicitly prompted to think about the rest of their day. So how many hours were left before bedtime, what else they still needed to do, maybe who they were seeing that day. The other half, the other part of the group, just had to focus on the task. They weren't prompted with anything. So after completing most of it, those who had been reminded of the broader context rated the task as 11 % less unpleasant. That's quite a specific amount.

24:15Okay, so what we're saying... Hang on, what is the fix? I got lost in the less unpleasant. So basically, if we were about to do a really tedious task, like sit down and record a podcast. I'm joking, I'm joking. but say you really hated doing this you don't, you love it but say you really hated doing it if before we sat down I was like oh hey so what else have you got on today? and you'd be like oh I'm speaking to Rachel at four and I've got a meeting with her architect at seven and then I'm going to take the dog out because I need to find my slipper that framing, that zooming out is going to help you in terms of getting through the task in a way that feels more or less unpleasant.

25:0211 % less unpleasant. Because you framed it in a, this is a small part of a much bigger day. Therefore, it's not as big of a thing. Love it. So your advice for people who, because we are, let's be honest, we are two thirds of the way through towards spring. If we assume that we all kind of started in danger working or in earnest working in January the 7th, 23 days of January, 23 days currently or 24 days of February, 23 days left we're about two thirds of the way through any quick advice for someone who's like this next 23 days is going to be tough this is going to be a really good time to do a little review of your year so far book your holiday as well book your holiday yeah think about things that you're excited about coming up and things within the day as well it's that zooming out so if you're having a particularly kind of you know it's going to be a day then thinking about what else is going to happen in this day is it that I'm going to enjoy my four-hour commute is that I'm going to be I'm going to meet my friend for a coffee at at lunchtime um and then also as I said it might be a good time to kind of zoom out as well and think about what your other goals are for the year because January can always feel like a we should be doing this at that point most of us are too tired but spring is a good time to do that so maybe start to think about and reflect on what you'd like out of 2026 and and that should help you get through the next 23 days love it a temporal landmark is that what you psychologists call it See, I do listen to you.

26:26Okay, talking and listening to things, then we've got a lovely advert coming up for you. We'll see you in about 60 seconds. Billion Dollar Moves, hosted by Sarah Chen Spellings, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination of business professionals. Join venture capitalist and strategist Sarah Chen Spellings as she asks the hard questions and learns through the triumphs, failures, and hard lessons of the creme de la creme, so you too can make billion dollar moves in venture, in business, and in life. Maybe start with episode 124, where you're going to hear how industry giants from Canva to YouTube define leadership.

27:00Listen to Billion Dollar Moves wherever you get your podcasts.

27:07All right, welcome back. It is time for Truth or Lie. This is where we take something that sounds like common sense, usually in the workplace, and put it under a little bit of pressure. Today's claim feels almost untouchable, I would say, that this is the true, this is the, is it a true or is it a lie? people don't leave bad jobs they leave bad managers now i'll be honest i've heard lots of people say this and i think a lot of us can think of a boss who made work harder than it actually needed to be but is that what the evidence says over to the scientist chartered occupational psychologist my wife co-host and also looking really lovely and wintry today in your lovely green jumper is it a true truth or is it a lie i'm not sure we'd find many people who haven't heard this phrase to be fair but have you ever thought about where it comes from no i just assumed it was a i assumed it was someone clever probably in the 50s or the 70s someone like that guy who talks about culture i can't forget his name yeah um i hadn't really thought about either it's kind of just folklore isn't it apparently it's traced back to a 90s book called first break all the rules by marcus buckingham and kurt kaufman i've heard of that yeah marcus buckingham fun fact he was the he was the lead singer of Fleetwood Mac for a while.

28:23No, he wasn't. That's Lindsay Booking. Carry on. What? Yeah, so that's where it comes from. And I think Gallup has famously kind of amplified it through their workplace research. So the claim is pretty simple. Managers are the primary reason employees resign. It's not pay. It's not workload. It's not the job. It's a relationship with your manager. And it has become very popular because it's framed retention as a leadership issue rather than necessarily a structural one. So if turnover is about managers, then organisations can fix it by improving leadership behaviour. So that's the claim that we're looking in for.

29:00I'm not going to lie, one of these for and against is slightly more heavily weighted than the other. Right, okay. So the case for strapping out. There is strong research showing that managers have a significant impact on turnover. So people leaving their jobs. A 20-2012 study examined transformational leadership and turnover behavior. So that's not just intentions to quit, but people actually exiting the business. Right, yeah. So they found that transformational leadership, which is all about, that leadership is all about inspiration, motivation, empowerment, very popular in the 90s. Transformational leadership significantly reduced actual turnover.

29:41And even more interestingly, even when employees had already formed intentions to quit, transformational leaders weaken the link between intention and behavior so people might actually stay for their transformational leader even though they start to think about quitting oh okay yeah that's quite interesting isn't it yeah it is it's really interesting so then we go to a more recent a more recent study in 2018 that looked at managerial influence tactics and emotional engagement so basically just how we kind of form that relationship and how we squish it about They found an increase in managerial, a one unit increase in managerial pressure.

30:20So things like threats, excessive demands or coercion was associated with a 91.1 % increase in the odds of turnover. No. Yes. No, that genuinely is. That sounded like I was being sarcastic there. No, that genuinely is. So 1 % increase. So 1 % more of a dick. Yeah. 91 % more chance of them leaving. Yep. Blimey. Yeah. Yeah, dramatic, isn't it? I told you to strap in, Al. I also want to write an article called 1 % More Dick, because that'd be quite funny, but carry on, carry on. Yes, there we go to an even more recent study, 2023. They also concluded, the researchers, that leadership style has a positive and significant impact on employee retention, whereas autocratic leadership styles, that's when it's kind of very individual control, one person makes all decisions, that type of leadership style was specifically linked to hire, turnover and absenteeism.

31:18So that's people going off sick. We then got a 2017 review, which looks at a number of different studies. They drew on Gallup data that noted 50 % of employees who voluntarily leave say they're doing it to get away from their managers. Oh. Yeah. And also highlight as well, a very famous statistic.