292. Is your A.I. getting 'token anxiety'? PLUS! Sh*tcuts, Sweden’s empty offices and the truth about vulnerable leadership, with Live+Work More Human Podcast hosts, Alexis Zahner and Sally Clarke

26:14Lex. I love it. And I think pro-social behaviors is key here, Leanne, because I think that is really what we're going to dive into is some of those behaviors. because I think, again, Sal has done a really good job of sort of looking at vulnerability more as a definition. But I think that's the challenge we see with leadership is it sort of lacks a discernment and it's become synonymous with oversharing and, you know, perhaps talking about your weaknesses without any strategy behind that. So let's go into the evidence perhaps for vulnerability as a leader. And I looked at a few studies here. One of the studies that was published in Organizational Science in 2022 actually found that a specific kind of vulnerability, and that is when leaders actually openly share critical feedback about their own performance.

27:04So what they did well, what they could do better next time actually showed that they could create environments with higher psychological safety in their teams. So basically what we're saying here is a very critical, humble assessment of your capacity. So what you did well, where there's work to sort of happen there actually sort of creates that playing field for your team where they can perhaps feel safe to do those own internal self-assessments and bring forward some challenges that they might be facing as well. So another study that I looked at was a 2022 study as well that looked at sensitive self-disclosure.

27:43So this is basically where leaders were revealing what they deemed to be some of their weaknesses. And the body of research here said that leaders who spoke about their weaknesses in a strategic way, so again, not just sort of throwing your hands in the air and saying, oh, I'm bad at this. I just can't do this because that sort of signals incompetence. But leaders who were able to demonstrate that they were aware of their weaknesses and they were strategizing to overcome them were actually seen as more authentic. Another word that I know you love, Sel, that I despise. But that was another piece of research there.

28:21And then the last one that I'll just speak to here was a 2022 meta-analysis that looked sort of more generally at the term humble leadership. And they found that skills such as acknowledging limitations, appreciating others' strengths and actually the leader being more teachable demonstrated. They were skills within the vulnerability realm that actually demonstrated trust and reliability and things like that within your team. So that's the argument for vulnerability. Does anyone want to throw their two cents on that? I have a question. Please. So when you were talking about, I loved it, the kind of the critical analysis of performance.

29:01In an organizational setting, to make that, I'm sorry to trigger you, authentic. Would something like a 360 be a good tool to use to kind of facilitate that critical reflection process? Potentially. I think that giving employees opportunity to provide feedback to a leader is really, really critical. But I do think, and I'd love to hear both of your or all three of your sort of ideas here, I do think sometimes that a leader stepping into their fallibility a little more by sort of disclosing their weaknesses or disclosing that they've sort of introspected on that a little bit makes it feel like it's less coming from the employee.

29:45Because I think we have to really acknowledge the power dynamics at play here. So I think 360s theoretically are a great tool, but I do think as a leader asking employees, we're never going to get 100 % disclosure on the things that we could be doing better because whether we like to say we're open and all of those things, it will impact potentially on our relationship with our employee if we're not able to receive that feedback well. So definitely think that's a tool for it. But I think there's an element of leaders actually being open to disclosing that themselves that the research seems to say can actually sort of help facilitate that openness as well.

30:22I think what's key for me here too is as well that kind of piece that you mentioned, like, surround, not just sort of having this like, blah, here's all the things I'm bad at, lol, you know.

30:34But I think being able to say and having this kind of, I think, part of your leadership ethos being, and I'm learning about it and I'm curious to improve, or I've got things in place to make sure that I don't actually need to be focusing on that, because that's, I know that I'm not good at it. And I think being, having that kind of approach to it, both the curiosity, the humility, the transparency, these are all great things for a leader to be able to demonstrate that there is that, you know, the fallibility that we all have, but also that I can still be trusted as a leader because I'm not only aware of it, but I'm doing something with it or about it.

31:11Yeah, I agree. I think it's that idea of recognizing it, but taking action that shows you're doing something about it. Otherwise, I feel like sometimes we're kind of weaponizing vulnerability a little bit, like we're low-key using it as manipulation. And I don't love that as a leader, you know, like sort of disclosing in a way to try and build that trust and reliability, but there's no real follow-through in that. It's just, I'm trying to be relatable, but I'm not actually demonstrating to you that I'm going to work through these things. Great. I love those thoughts. So now I want to look at the evidence against vulnerability as a leader.

31:49And it's interesting because, again, it can be a bit wobbly, depends on your interpretation here. So looking at specific behaviors, one of the papers I looked at was published in 2025 in Organizational Behavior and Human Decision Processes. And the paper was called, Does Expressing Uncertainty Help or Harm Leaders? And I really liked this word uncertainty because I think, again, vulnerability is often, And, you know, it's an umbrella term for things like uncertainty expressing that we might not know the answers to things. And so what the evidence actually suggested is that leaders who express uncertainty can be viewed as less effective, less warm and less competent.

32:30So I think this is a really interesting one and I'd love to unpack this further because I think we have to be strategic in how we speak about uncertainty or times of uncertainty as well. because I think what people expect from inner leader when things are uncertain is not for them to have all the answers, but to show that they're willing to create a plan or have some conviction to actually work through the challenges. So what is everyone's thoughts on this? Can I dive in? I've been thinking a lot about the definition that someone's used recently of trust, which is having a confident relationship with the unknown.

33:07And I really thought of that as you were speaking likes because I think that's what leaders need to be able to really elicit from their teams is this confidence in the unknown and I completely agree that there is you know simply presenting everything's uncertainty full stop is probably going to harm the trust factor in our teams but being able to sort of talk about it and acknowledge I think you know as well that it's there is like uncertainty permeates everything in our lives right now and not talking about it or pretending that everything is solid and fixed and never going to change is frankly idiotic and will certainly break trust but there's this kind of nuanced space of being able to hold space for it but also inspire people's courage that you're going to be able to know how to navigate the uncertainty as well yeah I think it's the nuance here isn't it because it's you know you could say oh you know uncertainty being comfortable with that could look like oh my god guys what are we going to do oh my god the world's falling apart exactly yeah like how exciting what opportunities we've got with the pace of things that are changing what can we do for our clients it's going to support them do you know what i mean it's and i think a lot of that and i know it's kind of a word that was overused last year but emotional regulation plays a part in it as well in terms of how leaders show up as being you know quote unquote vulnerable or um yeah so But it also probably takes a certain amount of maturity as well.

34:33If you imagine you're a brand new manager, then you already feel like you've got a lot to prove, haven't you? And for you to go up there on day two and go, yeah, actually, do you know what? I'm not really 100 % sure what I'm doing is like, that's... Yeah. Yeah. You've got to get that balance right, haven't you? So, I mean, just asking for necessarily some in-depth advice, but I mean, if someone was a new manager listening to this, Lex, how much of this do they need to take all of it in? Well, it's an interesting one. And sort of what the three of you who kind of just elucidated there as well is that it's oftentimes not the content of the message, but the delivery.

35:08And I think you can not have the answers or you can be totally green to certain tasks, but it's how you go about perhaps asking for help or how you go about expressing where the gap is for you and how you might rely or lean on your team that can shift it from being I'm incompetent to I'm empowering people. or I'm hitting the freaking panic button to, hey, we don't know the answers here, but we've got this. So I think it's all in the actual delivery, the tone, the body language, how thoughtful you are in what the downstream impact of your communication might be so that you can sort of pre-plan the delivery of that.

35:49Can I just give the example of a friend of mine who recently stepped into a leadership role and they'd come into a new department and there was some, they knew that there were some concerns from some of the people they were going to be leading about their capabilities because they didn't have all the technical skills that a lot of the people in the department have and they got some really great advice I think from their coach which was to acknowledge in their sort of you know gathering the team together first team meeting to say to acknowledge a couple of those things like I know I like there's a bit there's a bit here that I'm not not up to speed on and I also know that the team is far ahead of me in this particular way and this is what I'm doing to bridge that gap or this is how this is the book I'm reading and this is the coaching I'm seeking so that I can be the best possible leader that I can for you because I think sometimes getting ahead of those knowing and getting ahead of those concerns that people have can be a really powerful way of proving oh yeah no that's that's an intelligent person who's who's clear on what's going on here rather than some ignoramus who's coming in and just telling us that they're going to be a great leader.

36:46So Lex can we come down one side or another is it truth? Is it a lie? Is it both? Well, it's a little bit of both. And one thing I do just want to acknowledge before we give our final verdict is I actually want to just double click on Lee's word there around emotional sort of regulation. Because one study that I also found was that when leaders lean on their team for emotional support as a form of vulnerability, this actually undermines their perceptions of competence from their team as well. So I think it, again, it all comes down to the behaviors and how we express vulnerability in a really strategic way.

37:21So if we're oversharing or dumping on our team or gossiping and whinging about things that aren't going well, because we think that's vulnerable, these are all the kind of skills or the kind of behaviors rather that are actually going to undermine us. So the verdict is, I think vulnerability when done well, when done thoughtfully, and when done with a bit of a plan in place around what it is you're trying to achieve as a result of expressing it, I think really can build bridges, build trust and build psychological safety in your team. But vulnerability done thoughtlessly, done from a place of emotional reactivity, most certainly is going to undermine your perceived competence as a leader.

38:05So that's my verdict. Fabulous. Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. Thank you so much for that. Before we go on to the workplace surgery, just wondering if you want and tell the listeners a little bit more about your podcast. Oh, sure. So Live and Work More Human is really conversations around how we can bring our humanity into our work lives and into everything that we do in a more empowered and aware way. We have lots of amazing conversations with incredible thought leaders. And we also have some conversations, just the two of us, sort of talking about our own experience and what we're seeing out there in the world.

38:39As you guys well know, we started as we are human leaders and we've shifted the lens to be less around just leadership because we really believe that everyone has the capabilities within them to be leaders. So it's inviting more people into the conversation and more of our lives into that space. Lex, what did I miss? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Love it. Ditto what Sal said. We'll leave it there. Give us a listen. You have fabulous guests on there. So go and look for Live and Work More Human podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We'll leave a link in the show notes. Okay, so it is on to my favorite time of the week.

39:11It's time for the world famous weekly workplace surgery. I put your questions to normally, Leanne. Not this week. Not this week. We're going to put the questions to the guests. So we're going to start off, I think, because this is our burnout, Sal, I think it's going to be for you, isn't it? So I'll read the question. So this person's writing, and basically the problem is that their team's burning out, and so are they. So they write, I can see my team is burning out. The energy's gone. People are just going through the motions. and a couple of my strongest performers have gone quiet in a way that worries me.

39:38The problem is I'm not in a great place either. I'm supposed to be the one fixing this, but I'm running on empty myself. I don't want to be fake, but I also don't know how much of my own burnout I should share with the team. How do you lead through burnout when you're feeling it too? Sal, the floor is yours. Great question and one that I get with remarkable and increasing frequency, Al. I think the first point that I would say is to leaders to seek some outside help for themselves immediately. And I mean pronto now. Engage a coach, perhaps a therapist, get a support team, get an entourage around you to support your own well-being at all levels because your well-being is critical to that of the team.

40:16So that is really your first starting point. Secondly, I would say schedule in some one-on-ones with your team. And if you're not doing this already, just start to have those conversations around how they're doing. But be more specific than just how's it going because you'll probably just get a fine nothing to see here. but really digging into some questions around how their workload's going, where they're finding challenges and what you can do to support them in this particular week or period of work. So some proactive and specific questions that are really going to elicit answers around how you can support them better is really a really helpful place to start.

40:52Once you've been able to get to a point where you're feeling a bit better, then it's time to look at some of the system stuff, some of the broader picture, because that's going to be a really important piece if you want to sort of prevent burnout from happening upstream. But as a sort of emergency alarms flashing, red flags flying everywhere sort of approach, start with self, start with conversations and focus on exactly what Lex just referred to, that sort of discernment in your vulnerability as well. Lex, anything to add? I mean, just to really build on the system stuff, Sal is really our expert here on burnout.

41:25But I think the one thing I've experienced as a leader, and it's a saying I use all the time now, everything is a priority, nothing is a priority. So the first point of call is to just clarify and cut the crap. Cut and defer low value work, give people permission to just not be working on faffing stuff. Like what are your needle movers? How do you just dial in the focus so that people don't feel like there's a million and one deliverables and there's just too much on their plate? So I think that's kind of the start, the key start for the systems change side of things is just looking at why are people so laterally spread and what do we really need to be focused on well said legs yeah absolutely love that and and the irony is that the word priorities is pluralized which just seems a bit ridiculous doesn't it yes we'll go on to our next question just that in the question they said i'm something like i know it's on me to fix it and i think that can be a burden managers and leaders can put on themselves and you're not the only one who's I mean it's not your sole responsibility you're working within an organization where there should be other other support and advice available so I think it's I see this and I hate to say go back to generations because I there there isn't that much when we actually dig into it difference between us but I do hear our Gen X colleagues talking about this more like holding that responsibility to fix it um and I think Like, yeah, I think maybe just reflect on that a little bit and take some of that accountability off your shoulders.

42:53You are part of the solution, but you're not all of it. And can I give two points? I'm sorry to keep going. Two points there, Lee, to build. One is to put your own oxygen mask on first. And that's a really important thing for leaders that kind of I need to help all my people really starting with your own self-care as well. But also engaging some outside support. If you have any budget at all to get, you know, really expert consultants. I'm not going to name names, but, you know, I can think of some. to come in and help you with understanding stress management, understanding nervous system regulation, so that it's not on you as a leader to be delivering that information or coaching or therapizing people through this, but getting that external support in, making them aware of the EAP, all that kind of stuff as well.

43:35Fabulous. And Sal, what's the name of your book? Protect Your Spark. There you go. So that's also a very good resource. Great. Okay. Now question number two, how do you lead the right culture when the organization won't? So my organization talks a lot about values like psychological safety and I genuinely believe them but this person writes when I try to lead that way with my team I get pushback if I give people autonomy I'm told I'm being too soft if I push back on deadlines to protect them I'll tell them not a team player I feel stuck between doing what I think is right for my team and what the wider organization seems to reward so I think this is probably one for you Lex how do you build the right culture in your team when everything seems to be pulling you in a different direction?

44:18Thoughts? This is both a simple and a really complex answer, but I think it's a dilemma we see really often. And it's often because we hear organizations, like the amount of times we have organizations coming to us with a pre-diagnosed problem that demonstrates that they're really fluent in the language of what a good culture should be, but they are awful at actually rewarding the behavior that creates it. So culture really simplistically is what you do consistently. So if you are consistently rewarding overwork, staying at the organization too long, toxic behaviors like undermining colleagues or whatever it may be, these are all of the things that actually are the summation of your culture.

45:03So I would say the most simple place to start is observe the behavior that's accepted and observe the behavior that's being pushed away. Again, a lot of organizations say they value psychological safety. It's just the hottest word in leadership right now, trust, well-being, autonomy. But if you're promoting things like urgency or presenteeism, we've had a conversation today about productivity and productivity proxies. Bums in seats doesn't equal good work. If you're prioritizing micromanagement, controlling what your employees are doing. There's just an incongruence between what you're saying and what you're doing.

45:41And we call this the intention impact gap. So when that happens, employees also, you have to recognize, have quite a good bullshit detector. So they're very aware when what you say and what you do don't align. So this is just going to continue to sort of snowball your culture in the wrong direction. It's going to create insubordination. All of these things that are just going to feel like the culture spiraling more and more outside of your control. So I would say the foundational element in understanding what your culture actually is, is to understand what behaviors are actually being rewarded.

46:13And then you can recalibrate from there. But until you have that awareness, I think there's no point in looking at workshops or a training around psychological safety or this and that, because you don't even understand what needs to be changed first and foremost. Fabulous. Any thoughts, Sal? I'd say what everything that Lex just shared. The only bill that I'd have is potentially the listener said that they're being told these things. I'd be really curious who's telling them because if that's things that the feedback that they're getting from their team on these initiatives that they're trying to take then I think there's perhaps a little bit of lack of understanding from the team side why these things are important and why it matters so there might be some like values or a vision alignment training that'd be really helpful to get everyone on board and understanding why these behaviors matter so much to us if that pushback is coming from your leadership um then there's bigger issues uh at hand and that's a very different conversation.

47:07Fabulous. Leanne? I agree with everything. 10 out of 10. Brilliant. Nothing to add. Full marks. Fabulous. No notes. Thank you so much. No notes. Okay. So on to question number three. It's about hiring, whether you're hiring wrong or not. When I started my business, I hired people just like me. I'm sure we'll have some comments on that. Same value, same energy, same way of thinking. It worked really well at the start. Now we're growing. I'm being told I need to bring in different perspectives. People will challenge how we do things. But every time I try, it creates friction and they don't seem to last.

47:39So I'm questioning this. Is this a problem with my hiring approach or am I the one struggling to adapt? Guys, who wants to take this first? I mean, the short answer is it's both. It's probably your hiring approach and your adaptability. And I think just to really drill down into human behavior here, We all say we want people around us who challenge us, but often that means challenging us in ways that feel comfortable. But to truly invite divergent thinking and diversity and things like that into your organization is uncomfortable. So you need to be willing to adapt to things, not looking, feeling, sounding like you.

48:20That's just the bottom line there. So I think there's an element of developing your capacity to sit in the discomfort of difference, which, you know, these are just cognitive biases and human comfort. That's just how we're wired. And then the second thing I would say to that is that this is where the distinction between what you say you value in your organization and working styles really, really matters. Because if you're talking core values, such as, I don't know, they might be integrity, care, accountability, excellence, They're the typical things we see stuck on the walls of organizations.

48:55Get really clear on what those mean because you can have people with very divergent thinking styles from very different backgrounds from yourself that share those core values because you're really clear on what behaviors model those core values. So that means someone might have a different communication style to you, a different velocity of work or a different way of solving problems or even a different office setting that they like. But if they're modeling the behaviors that underpin your values, they are a culture fit. It's just that the culture is now growing and evolving and looking different to cater to these people.

49:31So what we're seeking in hiring is not conformity, but an opportunity to bring new and different people into an organization who share in our core values because what those core values mean to us is really clear and explicit so everyone can actually understand that from the get-go. Fabulous. Sal thoughts? I think it is, we saw some language change a few years ago, this shift from culture fit to culture add as being not just hiring a carbon copy of ourselves, but seeking people who add that diversity of thought to avoid things like groupthink. I would say that if people are rapidly leaving your organisation, as you've suggested, that's a massive red flag for me.

50:12And I would be fairly confident in saying that it probably has a lot to do with you as a leader. And if this is your response, your discomfort is probably rippling out through the organization and making it really difficult for that person to find a sense of belonging and finding a sense that they are welcome there. So I think there's some hard conversations perhaps to have with a coach and potentially completely support everything that Lex said around looking at values and really understanding how you want this organization to be and why so that the next diverse hire is welcomed in and you can start to really build that culture that's thriving, that's robust, that's different, and that's actually a much better, healthier, and more exciting place to work.

50:50Fabulous. Leanne, have you got any thoughts? I agree with Lex and Sal. I think there's lots of organizations out there that will recruit for culture fit without really having taken the time to understand what behaviors are associated with their culture. So culture just becomes people like you and me, whether that's how we think or look or where we're from. So I think defining culture and getting those behaviors nailed down is really really important the thing I'd add to then is that we know culture fit is a really useful thing for employee engagement and belonging and job satisfaction people who are a good fit with our culture tend to stay in it longer and they're happier for it that doesn't necessarily mean they're going to be good at their job so are these people leaving the organization because they're not a culture fit because they're not very good at their job because in recruitment processes culture fit is predictive of about two percent of future job performance whereas something like a structured interview that's really diving into the competency of the role and the behavioral aspects of the values we're going to get somebody in that very robust recruitment process that is good at the job and is a culture ad however you want to call it so i think it's it's yeah figure out what your culture is and then really look at your recruitment process in And my favorite thing in the world, job analysis.

52:05If you've not done it, do one now. Nerd. Fabulous. No, I love that. Love that, Lee. And I just want to add to that because I hear this all the time, that hire for attitude. And I think, you know, this is like a slogan we see bandied around all the time. But I do really think you need to be hiring people with the right skill set to achieve what it is you need that role to achieve as well, as well as being, you know, an alignment for culture fit. so yeah i love that fabulous thank you so much okay so i think that's the end can we do this every week please please yeah brilliant it would be brilliant if you have your own question that you want us to want us me to put to leanne or potentially other people who we have in the surgery in the future then the links are in the show notes the emails in the show notes um also make sure you do check out the show notes because it's the first time that you actually do need to check out the show notes because you need to go and find lex and sal now you can go find the podcast actually to go and subscribe, like, leave a comment, tell your mum, do everything that you need to do.

53:05Normally at this time, I would tell you what was going on on Thursday, but I have no clue. Absolutely no clue. It'll be a surprise for us all. It's a surprise for everyone. It's someone really great, though. Of course it is. Cliffhanger. Cliffhanger. Exactly. Exactly. So thank you so, so, so much, Lex and Sal. Anything to add before we say goodbye? Thanks so much for having us. It's lovely to see you both. Yeah. It's so good. Thank you so much. And we will see you next week. Thank you.