298. Dry chatting, Gen-Z CEOs and toxic bosses. PLUS! The science behind 'bring your dog to work day'

0:02Coming up this week in work. Six in 10 workers say they are currently working for a toxic boss. Not at some point in their career, that's right now. Historically, it's actually worse. So has toxic leadership become a norm in our workplaces? And what does that say about how organisations are actually developing their managers? Now, Gen Z, yes, Gen Z again, they're finding it harder than ever to get on the career ladder, but some of them aren't waiting around. They're building their own rungs. More on that later. And in truth or lie, bring your dog to work day. It's built on the idea that dogs in the office support positive mental health and reduce stress.

0:39But does the research actually back that up? I have had the best time researching this one. I bet you have. And in the workplace surgery, one business owner says they offer a range of well-being benefits, but hardly anybody actually uses them. And they want to know why. This is Truth, Eyes and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioral science meets workplace culture. Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Al. I'm a business owner. and I'm here to ask the questions you might be afraid to. And my name is Leanne. I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist and I'm here to answer them.

1:10And together we help you simplify the science of work and build amazing workplace cultures. We'll be right back after a quick word from our sponsors. If you've ever done sales for your business, then I bet this is going to be familiar. Your pipeline looks full, activity looks great, but you're not sure which leads matter, which ones are wasting your week and which call you should have made three days ago. It can all be very confusing, Al. Very confusing. But luckily, HubSpot's prospecting agent gives you a clear way forward. It shows you who's actually ready, gives the details of the reps you need, and points them towards the conversations worth having.

1:46So reps know exactly where to focus and what they're walking into. Check out HubSpot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

1:59Hello, welcome back. Welcome back. Happy Tuesday. or do you know what, happy day wherever you're listening to the day. There's no rules here. There are no rules here. There are no rules. Clearly. Clearly. If you were in the UK, then hopefully you had a lovely bank holiday Monday yesterday. Yeah, yeah. Yes, it was lovely. Was it sunny in the UK for bank holiday Monday? I don't, I don't know. I didn't hear much about it, so I'm going to go say probably not. No, no. Well, if you are from the UK, and sorry, it was beautifully sunny here. It was about 25 degrees and we sat out in the sun and had a beer.

2:27It was lovely. It was lovely. We had a barbecue. We had a barbecue. We did. Right. We do this trout, what Leanne likes to call a trout sandwich, and it's not what you think. Basically, you get two sides of trout. I'm showing you by using my hands. This is an audio meeting. Imagine one hand is one side of trout, and the other hand is the other side of trout. And then Leanne does this lovely sort of like onion mix. A spiced onion mix. And you spread between the two, shut them, put them in one of those big fish basket things, and put them on the barbecue. And it is just beautiful. Delicious. Delicious.

3:00We had that with some gambas pil pil, some prawn. Done on the barbecue. Well, obviously not done the barbecue, done in a pot on the coals. And asparagus. Asparagus season. Yeah. Makes us very happy. Makes our pea smell funny. Yeah. And what else did we have? I think we might have, we might have, we might be moving on, you know. This is boring me. Is it? Okay. Do you want the recipe? Let me know. Yes, definitely. Definitely. Okay. So it's time for. No, I've got something else. Oh, okay. Crack on Lee. What have you got? Have you seen that the big C is on tour and I'm not talking about Donald Trump?

3:36Oh, is that broadcastable? No, I don't know what the big C is. I don't know what the big C is. King Charles III. Oh, Charlie. Oh, no. Yes, C for Charlie. Got it. Oh, sorry. You're right. King is with a K. That says everything about the level of intelligence you think I actually have. So Casey and his sunshine band are on tour. yeah and he did oh he's well he's been he's been to the states he's been visiting um trump and the first lady and he's absolutely smashed it really like normally it's all a bit cringe isn't it when you watch the watch your royals on on tour or particularly you know king charles former prince the monarch normally known as prince oh well done anyway he smashed it but and there's loads of coverage on this and i'm sure the majority of our listeners would have would have seen it but i wanted to share some with you because I'm not sure you'd have seen it.

4:29No, I won't. And for anyone who hasn't seen it, I think it's a really nice, important message right now and things seem... What did you call it yesterday? We were sat chatting and you went humanity is in a dark place right now. Did I say that? Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, this is King Charles III addressing the US Congress. Are you ready? Yes. Hit me. Historical Society has calculated that Magna Carta is cited in at least 160 Supreme Court cases since 1789, not least as the foundation of the principle that executive power is subject to checks and balances. There's more. I mean, there's a lot more, but that's kind of the main bit, and that applause goes on for some time.

5:19Congress basically all stand up, Republicans and Democrats alike, and applaud Mr. King Charlie for quite some time. And I think what I really liked about it, he's basically calling out Trump and going, right, executive power is open to checks and balances. Magna Carta is in like the whole point that the people runs the government and controls the government is embedded in your society, your lawmaking, your justice system. And it's the British monarch who's kind of going, don't forget who you are, guys. Do you remember this whole like independence thing that you insisted on leaving us because you wanted liberty and freedom?

5:57That's cool. And we agree with it. And I just feel like it's a really nice point for anyone who's just lost all hope that there are still plenty of people, including leaders, who really have no business commenting on this type of thing and usually stay out of politics. And he did it brilliantly in terms of he never directly got political, but he did talk about NATO. He talked about security. He talked about all sorts of things. and I just thought it was a nice moment of anyone who's feeling a bit low and lost right now about all the things that are continuing to happen in the US and across the world.

6:28There are all great people out there. Great people who want to do the right thing and it's part, you know, it's just ingrained isn't it? It will swing back is what I'm trying to say. Hope. You're looking at me as if I'm going to cut all this out because it's nonsense. Not at all. No, I'm listening to you. I don't know anything about this so this is cool. Thank you. Thank you for that. I like that I get my news through you. Yeah, no He also gave Donald Trump a bell. It was from HMS Trump, which was like a naval ship in the 40s and actually retired not long after the Second World War. Because you know that also Trump has been slagging off the British Navy.

7:08Right. Which obviously Prince Charles's father served in the Navy. I'm not sure. I think King Charles did at some point. Right, okay. And basically gave him a bell, as if to go. I mean, which has so many connotations anyway. And was basically like, so next time you need the British, just give us a ring. Oh, nice. Nice. Anyway, go look at it. I feel like it's funnier to watch. Well, we'll find out. We look forward to your emails. Okay, Lee, can we move on to the... Best have. Okay, so is that Luyan's favourite time of the week? It is the... What time is it, Leanne? It's time for the news roundup.

7:44I'll cue that jingle. Jingle, jingle. Thank you, Lee. What have you seen? I've got a new word. Go on, go, go, go. Dry chatting. I suppose it's better than wet chatting, isn't it?

7:57I'm guessing dry chatting is something like where you just, either you're boring or it's like a dry run for a chat. On the right lines. Okay. Yeah, dry run is a good way to think. Any final guesses with that in mind? It's practicing chit-chat. Yes, but how? with the dog no no it's it's it's very very close i will give you a b minus oh that's not better than my gcse basically it means dry chatting is when you rehearse an emotionally charged work conversation with ai before having it in real life oh okay well that makes sense it does yeah dry dry chatting so yeah this is in i think this is in the times or the sunday times i'm not sure which one because you know when you just like read it online it just says the times and the sunday times and you're not sure where it come from anyway basically it was talking about how if you want to request a pay rise or if you've got conflict with a colleague the staff are dry chatting with large language models like chat gpt and claude and the like so they can walk into the real conversation feeling more prepared there was some commentary on this from somebody called kat thomas who said much of the discussion around ai is focused on speed and productivity but one of the biggest workplace shift is how it boosts confidence especially for women so yeah apparently people are using ai as a private rehearsal room for difficult conversations and of course we know that rehearsing these types of conversations can help people organize their thoughts they can test wording anticipate responses before it's all a bit a bit real and a bit high risk and for many people especially those who aren't naturally assertive it has um apparently been the difference between and them staying silent and speaking up our thoughts.

9:42Do you know who placed this in the Sunday Times? I only now know after I read it and wanted to use it and I was very pleased to hear it was from this person. I didn't know you were going to do this article and this morning I was speaking to the lovely Ellie Glasson from Glasson PR about Kat Thomas. So Kat will be on the show. Well, there you go. It's a small old world, isn't it? It is. It is. Oh, this is cool. Oh, I really like this. I really like this. and also by the way it sounds absolutely incredible amazing yeah yeah yeah so what's your thoughts on dry chatting dry chatting I do all the time sometimes I do it without actually following up with a wet chat which is a real life chat I do this all the time I will gabble for about it gabble's a word for about two and a half minutes at Claude and then say Claude what the hell have I just said there what's the most important bits and Claude usually go right well you waffled for 1 minute 90 and then you've got 1 minute 90, that's not how time works you've waffled for a minute I'm not on form today I think I had too many beers yesterday and yeah I definitely, definitely, definitely use that and I love it, but I hadn't thought about doing it in rehearsal for a real life wet chat I think we need to stop saying wet chat wet chat, wet chat, wet chat this is disrespectful to the times and all who contributed to this article yeah no I think it's quite a useful thing isn't it, I think it's actually just using technology to execute technique that psychologists and management consultants and experts have talked about for a long, long time in terms of having difficult conversations.

11:16It's rehearsing it, saying it out loud and getting your words together in kind of the tone and cadence you want to. So yeah, I love that we can now use AI for things like this. This was actually part of a larger article that was basically six words that are now defying the workforce. So I've got five others and I think I think you'll know more than 50 % of them do you want to test yourself? Yes. Quick fire Go. Rage applying Applying for jobs when you're angry because you're fed up with the current job. Yeah Vibe working. That's when you just, you use AI to do most of your work. Yep Anti-office That is what, you don't like an office No, this is the one I hadn't heard of actually and this is one that will be which you'll recognise in terms of a name.

12:05So this is the definition workplace is designed for humans rather than employees with softer lighting, natural materials and quiet corners. We talked a lot about that at Clark and Wild Design Week, didn't we? Do you remember the official podcast of Clark and Wild Design Week? That was weird. That was fun. Actually, I don't think it was. It wasn't. But anyway, you don't know. No fact checking, please. Thank you, Dr. Jake, by the way, for fact checking me on last week. He sent me an email going, where did you get that stat from? I'm like, my rectum I may have just oh really I saw it and I did too wondered where that came from it came from a tweet and the tweet didn't have any attribution so I was like dude I'm sorry sorry as a scientist you're going to be annoyed anyway right so that was the third word so anti-office and there was commentary on this from Danny Muhammad we like Danny who was on the podcast just a couple of weeks ago founder of Gentle Forces and she said for years offices have been designed around visibility desk density and efficiency what have we designed for progress versus productivity like that um and the final one meaning maxing uh getting the most amount of meaning out of your work yeah basically optimizing your life around purpose rather than status what an idea what a world we would live in if people did that so yeah i thought it's quite interesting actually in terms of all the different things that are defining our workplace at the minute and i think there is definitely overall a feeling that people are being a lot more mindful and intentional about how they work.

13:29And I think that's going to come and bite some organisations in the bottom when the economy eventually swings around. But there you go. I will leave a link in the show notes. I'll what you've seen. Great. Well, I've been reading The Guardian this week and feeling very fancy. Oh, I'm sure a lot of people who know you would be very surprised to hear if you read The Guardian. Yeah. Yeah, to be fair. I mean, I keep going up saying you should be paying for this. And I'm like, do you know what? You're right. And if you're listening, I'm editor or owner of The Guardian, I will probably pay for it in the future because I do read it.

13:55It is really, really good articles. Anyway, so he was talking about Gen Z. And basically, the background is that in the United States, then hiring has slumped to its lowest since 2020, which is obviously what was that just before the pandemic. Unemployment for Americans between the ages of 22 and 27 is at its highest level since the pandemic. So basically, what we're saying is the people who just graduated, who just entered the workforce, they can't get jobs. Now, you might think, oh, it's a tough economy. Everyone's struggling. And that is true. but here's what makes it specific to this particular age group.

14:27These are entry-level jobs they're going for. Obviously, that's why it's called entry level. That's where we start. And they're supposed to be this first rung on a career ladder, but they're the ones that are most exposed to AI. So it's the sort of like, you know, the sort of small routine stuff, the stuff where you sort of learn the ropes and then you move up. That's all being taken over at all. A lot of that's been taken over by AI. And so Gen Z, this is the generation that we're told, get your degree, work hard, follow the path. They're coming to the workplace and going, great, I'm ready for my job.

14:58And there are people who've done like four years in marketing and they're working in B &Q. And there's one bit in this, I don't think I made a note of the person, but they said that Home Depot actually, I think it's American B &Q. And she said that she works in the Power Tools section and she spends her lunch break scrolling through trying to find other jobs, which sounds very, very sad. What this article is saying is that Gen Z are basically making their own wrongs. so they're starting their own businesses or starting their own side gigs there's a woman called Shola West she's 25 she's based in London she spent her early 20s working at media agencies and then one day she started a new job I'm just reading the article and within weeks her entire team was laid off so she went back out to the job market and decided that working for someone else in this climate wasn't the most secure bet so what did she do she started her own brand consultancy she now works with Paramount or Sony Music as well um she said she told the Guardian I was kind of forced into it given how the market was.

15:52Now this, what's interesting, Leanne, this isn't a founder origin story. This is someone who got pushed into founding, foundationing, and decided to run with it. Thoughts? Interesting. I think there is a big chunk of listeners who will call themselves, as I do, a geriatric millennial, which basically means you're born at some point between 1980 and 1985, that also experiences very thing that I think probably geriatric Gen Zs are now, aren't maybe because we've got the gen alphas joining the workforce or starting to go to on to higher education stuff because i graduated in 2008 which is a great time in terms of the global financial crisis even though i'll laugh at me every time my youth that the great crash whatever you want to call the credit crunch the housing crisis basically the world was on fire nobody had any money and everyone was out of a job so i went through a similar a similar experience but i think the difference now with gen z and with all of us actually is that even if you do get that job the way the cost of living crisis is that salary is not enough you need more i think a side hustle is now just kind of what everybody needs to just have a decent life yeah yeah so you live off what you um off what you earn and you play off your side hustle yeah totally agree well it also there was another woman in this called celeste amadon yeah great name celeste that's a nice name it's a nice name celeste amadon uh she was 22 and she had an investment banking intern internship at jp morgan lined up the kind of thing very fancy very fancy they're not a fan of the john's ed though however she ended up saying no to it go on celeste which her mom was furious about yeah yeah and raised nine million dollars in venture capital and became a ceo of uh i think it's known is the thing she's created i'm sorry did you know what i'm sorry that's less of a side hustle it sounds more like a very successful startup file nine million to be fair now i think side hustles are like selling your clothes on vintage aren't they let me tell you why i want why this caught my eye is because she said basically when they asked her the guardian asked her said well now she's been in there what three years she said doing her own startup and she now learned she now learned how to hire how to fire how to manage a team how to allocate million dollars of funding, anything that in a traditional career she'd spend 20 years building up to, to learning those kind of skills.

18:19She's got them at 22. Well, 23 now, I think. Or she thinks she's got them at 22. Let's be honest, because how have you learned to hire and fire and lead and whatever else, you know, because that's a hard thing to do, which is why people listen to this. Yes. So if you're listening, Celeste, then we can help. We can definitely help. You have nine million dollars. We'll take a million of them. Thank you very much. Very inspiring though, isn't it? Well done, Celeste. I think the whole thing is inspiring. I think it's summed up by this woman, Francesca Albo, who said, and this is what she was saying about creating her own opportunity, said the old promise of jobs was stability.

18:52The new promise is ownership. And I thought that was really cool. Lee, any thoughts? Yeah, I'm not sure the old promise of stability has been much of a thing for a while. I think really it's the last, well, yeah, probably since 2009, 10, support the last 15 years where it's just been chaotic i feel like in my personal career i had this really nice period between say like 2013 and 2016 before brexit maybe 17 where it all felt fairly like not easy because you're still working aren't you but it felt somewhat stable and that included me getting made redundant yeah it feels more stable in the last five six years have been yeah good point so yeah i think i'm not sure it's a new thing but i'm i'm i'm pleased to hear that that gen z are leaning into their entrepreneurship and i think a lot of people i think the majority of people are whether it be on that scale or like i said selling things on vintage or doing car boot sales or you know doing design work on the side i think there's just so many people needing to do more both in terms of meaningful work work that they enjoy extra income or professional challenges and just yeah safety net i like it okay lovely what else have you seen this week six in ten workers say they currently have a toxic bus oh 60 yeah it's not not so much fun really is it so this was in i think this was in fast company yeah it was it was in fast company and it was quoting a study from the harris poll thought leadership practice basically it surveyed 1 ,300 not employed u.s adults it defined a toxic boss as someone whose behaviors were unfair treatment lack of recognition blame shifting micromanagement unreasonable expectations etc and yes 60 percent said that they currently have a toxic boss and when they asked have you to people have you ever had a toxic box toxic boss

20:5670 % of workers said that they have and for LGBTQIA plus workers that increased to 75 % yeah there's some interesting and sad making stats in this so nearly half of employees, 47 % say their boss's behaviour is stressing them out burning them out or harming their mental health around a third said they've lost money because of a bad boss either missing out on financial awards or having their chances of promotion stalled and 66 % said they work harder to try and meet their boss's demands, including working weekends and days off. So they're still trying to take on this toxic behaviour as a problem to solve themselves.

21:35I've got many more sad making stats, Albert. Thoughts? Lee, well, I've not really got thoughts because this is definitely your area, but because if you do one thing, you train your managers. But do you think this is down to the fact that, I don't know, that people aren't being trained or people being promoted too early or maybe there's no filtering to stop bad people from, or not bad people, but people with bad traits from becoming bosses. What do you think? Yeah, all the above, I think, isn't it? We know the majority of people aren't trained before their first management job. I think the latest data from CMI suggests that's like 80 % plus.

22:11Really? Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, yeah, we don't promote for the right things. We promote great ICs and not great managers or management potential. individual contributors oh okay yep rather than people with management potential and there's also wider pressure as well which which the article did did kind of hint at so 71 of workers said current economic conditions are increasing stress at work managers are going to be feeling that stress as well 44 said that their company is investing more in ai than developing people managers so there's just not that urgency from organizations either so i don't think this is necessarily pointing blame at managers being toxic it isn't necessarily a character flaw it's more that it's a failure of investing in their in their development or even their initial promotion and kind of assessing that potential in the first place so I think it's a massive opportunity to invest in managers because we know they have the single biggest impact on employee performance productivity well-being huge impacts on profitability so now is the time to um yeah if you do one thing, train your managers.

23:16And I've been thinking, we say that a lot and don't really say a lot on how people should train their managers. So we are in the process of launching a accredited management course with some beautiful colleagues of ours. It's still, well, it's actually, it's fairly far along in terms of its development, but we are launching at some point in the next six weeks. So if you want a little sneak peek on what that looks like, drop me an email, leannaoblonghq.com Lovely, lovely. If you have your own article you'd like us to talk about, I know Sally, you've sent me something which I'll talk about next week.

23:49If you've got your own article you want me to talk about or Leanne to talk about, just send us an email. There's links in the show notes. If you do want to learn more about that product that Leanne was talking about, just check the show notes. There's a way to get in touch there. And I think it is time for a very short break. And then after the break, we're going to go into our truth or lie where we find out whether something is true or lie. And I'm really, really looking forward to this week because I flippin' love dogs. and also we've got our world famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne.

24:14I'll see you in a second. If you're like me and you hate all this workaholic hustle nonsense on the socials and somebody's getting up at 3am to drink butter then here is a brand new podcast that I know. If you're like me and you hate all this workaholic hustle nonsense that's all over the socials, you know that dude who's getting up at like 3am to drink butter. Well, here is a brand new podcast that I know you will love. It is called Seven Day Weekend and is, of course, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals where all good podcasts live.

24:48I'm going to try and get through this. The Seven Day Weekend is your weekly dose of business, finance and side hustle motivation. So go subscribe and get brand new episodes featuring a mixture of guests and Laura's hard earned tips that'll teach you how to build the digital tools necessary to build your own seven day weekend. No butter required. For a taste of what's to come, go and listen to A Day in the Life of an Anti-Workholic, where Laura explains how to maximise your productivity with some fun and quirky techniques while living your best life. This is so up my street. Listen to 7 Day Weekend wherever you get your podcasts.

25:29Okay, welcome back to Truth or Lie. it's that time of the week where we take a popular workplace idea and ask if the research actually backs it up now leanne is actually back in the seat this week i know you've had a couple of weeks off this segment and currently as we're talking it is the 5th of may danny wearham's birthday happy birthday danny happy birthday danny um and i don't i don't just know that he mentioned it on uh on on linkedin uh the other day so i'm not weird um and it's also may is mental health health awareness month so the truth or lie of the next few weeks are going to have this sort of mental health awareness flavor to it.

26:03We're starting with something that is fluffy in a way that doesn't make Leanne cry. It's dogs, Leanne. Is it called Bring Your Dog to Work Day? Is that what it's called? Yeah. Yep. So apparently that happens all around the world. It's built on the idea that employees bring their dogs into the office and that is good for well-being. It was created by Pet Sitters International in 1999, originally to celebrate dogs as companions and also to encourage adoptions from dog shelters. What started with around 300 businesses has since grown into a global event but is it actually good for employee well-being well we have dog leanne and obviously it's very good for getting us outside um also if you're feeling a bit down a dog can a dog on your lap can sometimes make you feel a little bit better um it's really no surprise the workplaces are trying to do this leanne but what is the research behind it do dogs support positive mental health and is bring your dog to work day a good idea this is a lovely one isn't it it's been a really nice one to research and there's always just a few little kind of kind of things to be aware of so when researchers talk about employee well-being they're not just asking how happy people are they're also looking at things like how stressed they feel how energized they are how absorbed they are that's what we call work engagement which essentially really simple terms is the opposite psychological state of burnout so yeah that's a really good thing to measure and they also look at things like psychological well-being and a lack of or absence of anxiety and depression so the studies we're looking at today measure these things and they do measure them in different ways so some use self-reported surveys that's where employees rate their own experience others use measures like um like physical measures cortisol hormones that type of thing and so where that matters i will kind of tell you what type of evidence we're looking at.

27:50And in terms of bringing your dog to work day, some studies, there's not really studies that look at this very specifically, but studies do look at things like dedicated office dogs. They look at where employees are allowed to bring their dogs in, occasionally on rotating visits. And they also look at broader pet friendly policies for things like pet bereavement or subsidized vet care. So again, I'll flag these as we go through, but just want to give you some context there are so you ready for the four yeah yeah i love that we define everything before we even go in that's that's that's a proper psychologist well it's important isn't it we need to know what we're talking about okay so let's hear the case for dogs at work being good for employee well-being okay so there was a 2024 study or review of studies from gardener 31 studies looked at pets in the workplace and found general support for the idea that pets reduce stress at work.

28:46So one frequently cited study within the review found that dog owners who had their dogs with them didn't see their stress increase across the day. So stable, while those who didn't have their dogs with them did, which does suggest that having your dog nearby acts as a bit of a buffer against daily workplace pressure. So then we have a 2019 study by Hall & Mills. They looked at 749 dog owning employees and split them into three groups. So they had those who never brought their dog to work, those who sometimes did, and those who regularly did. So the group that brought their dogs in most often scored significantly higher on all three components of work engagement.

29:26So they were high on energy, higher on dedication, and absorption. So that's when you're into that state of flow. So they're all significantly higher than the group that never brought their dog in. they also reported stronger workplace friendships and were significantly less like to say they were thinking about leaving so you know a few lower intentions to quit the study also found that owners of smaller dogs those under five kilos so teeny tiny reported higher engagement and quality of life than owners of larger dogs which is interesting probably got more shoes untouched as well yeah i think research is suggesting that that it might just relate to practicalities of a smaller dog in the office is just easier to manage and less stress.

30:09Another recent study from 2024 surveyed 379 pet-owning employees and found that pet-friendly practices were positively linked to both work engagement and well-being. So basically, in terms of these stats, there's about 44 % variance in engagement scores explained by differences in pet-friendly practices alone, which basically means if you're a dog owner and you work for an organization with dog-friendly practices it's gonna about 44 percent of your engagement is going to come down to that in terms of your reason for wanting to be with this organization yeah i mean it's also not that surprising is it because you kind of values matching and lifestyle matching so but yeah it makes sense and for well-being that figure is 27 so that's pretty high again the research basically identified two reasons because it's fulfilling basic human needs so feeling competent at your work and feeling a sense of connection with people around you so that's quite a nice little study then 2022 looked a study looked at how pet friendly practices affect well-being through a slightly different lens so specifically whether they make employees feel more connected to and proud of their organization and whether that in turn improves how they feel about their lives So they looked, and this is very niche, they looked at 208 Portuguese pet-owning employees.

31:30Hang on. Are these people who own pets who are from Portugal or people who own, hang on. Portuguese pets. Portuguese pets, like the Portuguese waterhound. Portugal people. 208 people from Portugal. They did show that the sense of organisation belonging explained 11 % of the variation in life satisfaction between employees and 5 % of the variation in psychological well-being. Which is, it might sound modest, but in workplace research, a single policy explaining 5 to 11 % of how somebody engages in their work or how satisfied they are with their life is pretty, pretty notable. Another study from 2025 interviewed staff in an American vet college with a dogs at work program that had been running since 1999.

32:16So a longstanding program. Just need to say for our American visitors, that's American Veterinary College. So the vets who look after animals rather than veterans because I think they use the word vets. Oh, sorry. Yeah, okay. Four themes came across in this. So dogs as a source of emotional support. Dogs as a prompt for micro breaks, particularly after stressful events. Dogs as social catalysts who made it easy to connect with colleagues. And dogs as something that helped blur the hard line between work and the rest of life. People found it restorative. That's nice. And I can totally see that you've got much more of a social office if the dog's just wandering past you and you're like, oh, hello, hello, Charlie, how are you doing?