304. Al Elliott: "I've just ruined the last three years of my life.", Our co-host talks business, bankruptcy and the meaning of success

25:28And so his job was to ensure how the people were fit to hold a license. So I got my first license, of course, it's just an off license. It was a normal license. And then when he discovered what I was doing, he pulled me back to court, which almost never happens, pulled me back to court. And he's like, I want, you know, I want to clarify what you're doing. You seem to be contravening the licensing laws. And at that point, that's when I was doing my sale and completion swipey of credit card kind of thing. And so the magistrates, I mean, the magistrates kind of liked when I went there, I went three or four times.

25:57I kind of liked it because I think it was just different to how their normal day would go of dealing with someone who'd stolen a car or fallen out with their wife or something. So he basically said, my problem is not that he's, I can understand he's not taking money, but still he's picking his stock outside permitted hours. And I was like, and at the time I was like, what the hell does that mean? So I went away and did some research and it turns out that yes, it's fine to deliver alcohol, but only if it's been pre-ordered. Because in theory, you can only go into the stock room during permitted hours.

26:28And of course we weren't. People were ringing up at three o 'clock in the morning saying, can I have four candlestella? And we walk into the stock room, grab the four-pack candlestella and go and deliver it to them. Now, even though we weren't taking the money, we were still contravening the UK licensing laws because we were actually going and getting the stock during outside of permitted hours. So I had an idea. And I thought, if we ever get, if the police ever raid us and they want to see, and we've got like two bags, four cans of Stella, going out to Leanne Elliott in Manchester, then they'd go, has she ordered this?

27:03And at that point, we're like, yeah, just a few minutes ago. Show me when she ordered it. Oh, just a few minutes ago. Right, well, you've broken the law. So I thought, wouldn't it be interesting if we created an order of every permutation of everything that someone could order from us and for every single customer we've got. So I spent about four weeks writing this computer program that would essentially create an order. Every possible combination of orders of products we sold for every possible customer we had. We honestly had about 50 binders, each one with probably about 500 pages in there and each one in tiny print.

27:39So if anyone ever stopped us and said, where's the order? We can go, yeah, we printed it out. Look, then we go and get my file, look under G for Gobsil, which is the Anne's maiden name. find it and go, look, Leanne's ordered four cans of Stella. Now, the fact is Leanne had also ordered eight cans of Stella. She'd ordered 12 cans of Stella. She'd ordered a bottle of wine. She ordered two bottles of wine. So there was maybe a thousand different orders for Leanne. But the fact is that legally she had ordered it beforehand. So that's how we kind of got around that. He didn't like that at all. So he took me back to the magistrates.

28:10I think this is the fourth time we went back there. And the magistrates went, look, fair enough. You've given it a good go. we've seen you four times you tried every possible way to get around this and so no we're taking your license away from you and they took away my my my liquor license my off license what what happened

28:27Leanne:then what was what was left did give me some beer if you had no license well nothing because suddenly suddenly what could we do people ring up can i have four cans of stella and you go well legally we're allowed to sell you wholesale which means you have to buy 24 cans of stella and they'll be like well we don't want 24 cans of stella can you just bring us four go no because we've not got a license. We can't sell less than wholesale. And that was the licensing law back then before it changed, was that you could sell it wholesale anytime you want, no license required, but you couldn't sell it sort of not wholesale in points.

28:57So we came up with an idea. In Costco, there was a very, very cheap case of something called Lambrini, which is peri, which is basically pear cider. It's horrible stuff. But they came in packs of six 1.5 liter bottles. And they were about the time about six quid and so what we what we discovered or i discovered was that if i sold four kinds of stellar and i also made them buy this case of lambrini that was qualified as wholesale prices and therefore we didn't need a license for it so it it was quite difficult to convince someone who'd been drinking all night ringing up who wants four kinds of stellar they also have to buy this lambrini but and we probably lost 50 percent of our business but the other 50 present we're kind of like okay i see what you mean so essentially this is like a delivery fee i was like yeah basically yeah so you get your four cans you get these labrini and i said and also i tell you what we'll bring next time you order we'll bring you another set of labrini but if you've got the original one back we'll take that back and give you the new one so you never have to pay for it you only pay for it once kind of like i suppose a costco membership fee again really convoluted allowed us to get around it for a while but ultimately wasn't the solution

30:10Leanne:so what what happened how long was there between kind of this final change in in how you're operating before you realized that the business was unsustainable probably only a few months um the licensing law was was starting to change it was allowing local shops to stay open until three four in the morning selling alcohol at half the price we were selling at um so i think i think maybe about six months after that the business closed um we were selling out the back of a car I remember I got mugged well why not mugged but I got an order to this dodgy part of Leeds I went there um and they kicked the crap out of me took my took my money my phone my car um and at that point I was a bit like you know what this just isn't worth it so so unfortunately I stopped and I went and got another job um but I still wasn't enough um that still wasn't enough to sort of pay all my debts because I borrowed like 103 grand at this point why'd you borrowed that that amount Well, the bank kept giving me more and more money because they were like, this is an exciting business.

31:10It was in the dot-com era. So all I did when I wanted more money is I just, I went there and I went, I've got a new business plan. I put dot-com at the end of Gimme Some Beer, which was my company name. Gimme Some Beer dot-com. They were like, oh, we're investing in dot-com companies now. So yes, here's another 50 ,000, you know, and they increased my overdraft to 40 ,000 or something. Then I had a van lease, which was like 30 ,000. So, and credit cards and all this kind of stuff. So if anyone's ever run a business and it's not going well, you'll know what the credit card dance is, where you go and apply for a new credit card, then that gets maxed out.

31:41And then you go and convert it to a loan, which Egg used to do all the time. Then you'd max out your credit card again. And you just were just getting deeper and deeper and deeper into the shit, which it all sort of came to a head when I realized that, you know, I owe this 103 grand. I was earning about three grand a month from my sales job, commission only sales job. and I don't think I even covered the repayments on everything.

32:05Leanne:So what happened then? Well, I went bankrupt. It was the person, because everything was personally guaranteed. So it's the only thing I could do. Well, it wasn't the only thing I could do. I could, I suppose, have gone, but I couldn't really because I got so much stress, so much stress. I was basically working so hard. I was behind on my mortgage that I lit, on the place in Bradford, which I bought. I was behind on the mortgage on my investment property in Manchester that I'd bought. And I was also renting somewhere that we were behind on rent there and electricity and all that kind of stuff. And I was just thinking, what's the point in even getting up in the morning going to work?

32:43Because I need like 500 quid today just to keep my head above, just to pay the debts, let alone any kind of any food or travel or petrol or anything like that. I remember being used to go and raid my copper jar to go and put petrol in my car. And that's the most ridiculous thing is when you go in and you put£8.40 worth of petrol in your car because that's all you've got in coins. And you're driving so slowly trying to make sure it's going to last you all day. So the most sensible thing was to look at bankruptcy, which is what I did in 2007.

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34:30how did it feel at that time to be living in that that kind of world like you say you know you're

34:37Leanne:coppering up to pay for petrol knowing that just a few months previous to that you had a business it was doing 20 grand a week 30 staff a great work environment a great culture um exciting problems to solve and and you know the drama of being an entrepreneur and it does sound like a tv some kind of like short series of of kind of al versus a licensing guy and leads how did it feel being in that in that darker place and looking back at what what you'd had and what you'd lost I think it was awful because like you've said there you lost it and and at that point I was maybe 28 27 uh 2007 so I'll be 30 I think I'll be 30 um and I was like what the fuck I've just ruined the last three years of my life not only am I starting not starting at zero at 30 I'm starting at minus 103 grand.

35:35So what the hell am I going to do with the rest of my life? And it was just quite a frightening situation. I think actually thinking about it, I think I went bankrupt a little before that because I think I was 30 when I started my next business. But yeah, it was just, and it was also a bit of embarrassment that, you know, I said before about the 42 under 42 and I'm like, oh God, you know, what happens if someone finds out that it's that it's not worked. And it's like, of course, no one's, you know, there's 42 people who've been given that award. You know, no one's really going to go follow each one of them and go, how are you getting on?

36:08So it was that, but it was just, there was a lot of shame, I think. And obviously my parents were pretty upset about that because, you know, there's that, that stigma attached to being bankrupt. But I kept thinking, you know what? If you've gone bankrupt, it's shown that you've at least done something. It hasn't worked, but you've done something and you've tried something. And I kept borrowing a lot from the American philosophy of just bankruptcy's not, bankruptcy's not like the final. Bankruptcy's kind of like the beginning. I was reading a lot of things, people saying that, or books, people saying that they only ever invest in entrepreneurs who've been bankrupt at least once because it's shown that they've gone for the moon, it's not worked.

36:48So I was taking a little bit of solace in that, but it wasn't a great time.

36:53Leanne:What was the darkest moment during that time? In terms of shame, the worst moment was when my neighbor rang me up from Bradford and the house had been repossessed. So I'm guessing they put some kind of notice on the door being repossessed. My neighbor, who I'd gone on really well with, and she rang me up and went, what's happened? Your house has been repossessed. What's happened? And I had to pretend it was like a banking error or something, but she knew and I knew. So that wasn't great. and of course there was lots of times which were dark because I didn't really see I did see a way out of it a few months later but at the time I was like I'm gonna have to get another job and I'm as I said I'm worse than where I was five years ago.

37:37Leanne:You mentioned there that you were kind of looking at the American philosophy and in starting to to look at kind of the positives behind bankruptcy was that where did that drive come from to try and shift that mindset was that you or was that somebody else's influence i suppose i suppose it was me because my parents influence was very much i don't blame them at all for this but my parents influence is very much okay right you gave it a go it didn't work let's go and get a job you know you can go and get a job in aldi or weatherspoons or something like that um so there's you know you have a you have another opportunity to become a teacher, for example.

38:14And that was the last thing I wanted to do. So I suppose that it was almost like a negative motivation that I didn't want to go back to a normal working life that made me start to reframe how I looked at things. I think about the same time I might have done a Tony Robbins thing, you know, when you run across the coals and that might have been a bit like, wow, that was sort of as cheesy as it can be. And of course, you know, you have your own opinions about it but i followed him for quite a bit and like bought his tapes and his cds and all this kind of stuff and that did help because it just started to reframe really that what had happened yesterday doesn't necessarily dictate what's going to happen tomorrow and so i think maybe i'm wrong but i think i think i got a lot of motive sort of self-motivation to do this and not much external motivation at that point i don't think what was it about a normal life a normal job to use your word normal career that that was so

39:17Leanne:off-putting for you especially after you'd been through so much in the heartbreak of building and losing a business what was so bad about that more traditional career path i honestly don't know i'm I've never wanted to be the BMW in the drive of a 400 ,000 pound detached house in an estate that's never really interesting. Is that true? You've never kind of wanted those things? I don't think so I just felt that was mediocrity and like I felt that the you know the opposite of of being on, you know, on your ass like I was after gone bankruptcy is mediocrity, not riches. It's like people seemed, I just felt that those were the two opposites, whereas it was a totally different direction to go in, to build something, to, I don't know whether it was, I wanted the recognition for building something, or I just wanted the excitement of being able to wake up and go, I'm excited about what I'm going to do today, rather than I'm going to go to the same job and see the same people in the same car and then come home and watch the same tv programs eat the same food and go to the same bed so clearly you were driven to to go again build another business um i mean tell us how do you go from bankruptcy for more than a hundred thousand pounds to setting up business number two well it was funny because if if anyone started if you're listening and you've started your own business and you know there's there's usually a business is born from scratching your own itch, from solving a pain that you've got.

40:57And the pain I had then was I had two houses being repossessed. I was late on my rent. I had all these people chasing me. There was a particular water bill that wasn't included in my bankruptcy by mistake. And so I was a CCJ. And so I realized that I knew probably more about debt, debt management, mortgage arrears than the average person. In fact, more than probably like 70 or 80 % of the people in the UK because I'd been through it. And I also had this, I had empathy as well. So it was at that point that, um, I started talking to my, the guy who used to manage my business for me in the beer business.

41:34He was only a kid, um, at the time. I think he was like 18 or something when he came to work for me. Um, and, um, and I started talking to him and he'd been, he'd gone to university and he was doing his degree. And I just said, you know, do you fancy doing something a bit different? because I've seen this way in which you can buy houses for less than what they're worth, rent it back to the people, and you can help people who are being repossessed to stay in their property. And if you do it ethically, most people aren't doing it ethically. If we did it ethically, not only would we make some good money on it, we'd build a property portfolio, but also we'd be helping people in the same way.

42:13And so I think that's where my next business was born was purely that I had the knowledge and the experience of going through massive amounts of debt, bankruptcy, repossession. And then Chris, my business partner, who was only 21 at the time, but he was mortgage, he could hold mortgages. So we could kind of bridge that gap of saying, if you are getting repossessed, then let us buy your house, rent it back to you for 99 years. And I know anyone who's a landlord knows that's not right, but we'll talk about that in a second. rent it back to you forever and save your family home. And so that's kind of like where the next business was born.

42:48Leanne:What do you mean 99 years isn't it right? Well, technically, an AST, an Assured Short Old Tenancy in England and Wales, is only allowed to give in 12 months. What we did was we give, if we said we buy your house, what we'll do is we'll give you some kind of undertaking that means that we will renew that tenancy every year for up to 99 years as long as you pay your rent, you're never late, you don't contravene the licensing, the tenancy agreement or whatever, whatever. And that was really just a marketing thing. It was just to say, because everyone else, that was the biggest issue with other companies in the sector was that they'd buy people's houses, they'd rent them for six months and they'd buy them for like 30, 40%, the cheapest they could buy, 30, 40 % below what it's worth, they'd buy them for, rent it to the family for six months, then serve them what's called a section 21 notice, an eviction notice, and then sell the house for what it's worth and realize that gain.

43:42And that was going on because it was totally unlicensed back then. And that was going on a lot. And so I thought, well, what that's, that's their big, when we started getting into this, we found that's the biggest objection to anyone doing this. We said, well, how do we get over that? Well, simply we'll give them a 99 year tenancy. And that's, that's, so that kind of won us. We were beating, you know, we went to see customers who'd gone to see these massive companies were advertising on TV and these customers were choosing us purely because of that 99-year tenancy, which was really not. I mean, if they were late with their rent, that entire undertaking went.

44:14So we were safe. But it just felt like such an advantage in the market at the time.

44:21Leanne:Where did this confidence come from to launch yourself into a new area of business that you didn't have any former experience and beyond your own personal experience? impetuosity of youth, perhaps. I don't know. I was about 30 at the time. It's about when we met, I think, wasn't it? So maybe I was 29, 30. And I just felt like, why not? Why not? It's not necessarily confidence. I almost felt like it's a necessity, like I had to do something about this and not necessarily from a moral point of view, but just because if I didn't attempt to build something based on this idea, then what would I have?

45:02I would have this mediocre job. I'd be 30 and a salesperson and nothing against salesperson, salespeople at all. I love sales and some of the most wealthy people I know are salespeople, but I was just selling crap. I was selling advertising space over the phone. So I'd be 30 and then soon enough, I'd be 35. Then I'd be 40, still doing the same job, same dull things and just the same dull life. So it's not a confidence I felt. I felt it was a necessity that I had to try this and I had to do this.

45:33Leanne:So what were the kind of steps behind that in terms of actually setting up that business? What were the things that you had to, I mean, how did you get the trust of a 21-year-old to have multiple mortgages? How did you, how did you even navigate getting mortgages? How does it all work? Well, without going into the ins and outs, the trust was there because Chris, who's still my business partner in that business, um, what, 15 years on, maybe a bit longer. Um, he was, um, he, he'd worked for me and give me some beer and he'd seen that I literally, I was sleeping there. I was, he was going home at five in the morning or four in the morning, then coming back in about 11.

46:10And in that time I'd had two hours sleep and I got on the cash and carry, bought more stuff. And then I was doing the accounts and I was typing stuff up and whatever. So he'd seen that I'd worked hard. And in fact, he's the only person who ever made money from that business because I paid him well. In fact, all the staff I paid well, and that's probably what made me bankrupt in the first place. I should have been paying people per delivery like Uber does now. And I was just paying people an hourly rate where they were busy for like two hours and then they were quiet for two hours and they're busy for two hours and they're quiet for two hours because I wanted to make sure that it was fair and right for them to come into work.

46:41So I think Chris had seen that. He'd seen that I really genuinely wanted to help people. And also I think that he was a bit bored at university. He'd had this exciting sort of like 18 months gap year where we were building, give me some beer. He came with me to the 42 under 42. We were like brothers and we got on really well. And you went to university and I think you felt a bit deflated that, oh, oh, I mean, maybe you're asking me, it'll be totally opposite. But I just said to him, look, just come down, hold some mortgages. This is how it's going to work. All you have to do is hold the mortgages, et cetera, et cetera.

47:12And it turns out actually that property is Chris's passion. Like now he's a big developer. He's done all kinds of bits and pieces, which he probably wouldn't have done had we not started that business together. Really, there was no real trust required because Chris trusted me. And then in terms of actually starting it, back then it was Google Ads. So I just went and bought all the Google Ad books I could. I can't remember if Amazon was around then. I can't remember. I might have gone to the bookshop and read them and then started implementing them and started running ads. And then we ran an ad in the Manchester Evening News.

47:43and I remember distinctly we ran it as an advertorial so basically editorial that we'd paid for but I wrote it so I read all the articles around money in the Manchester News and then tried to rewrite it in the same style so it didn't look like an advert and it worked so well so we basically we went out on the Tuesday and then the Wednesday we had like 8, 10, 12 people who'd inquired about it and so we had these appointments we went to see them and I think from that we bought 8 houses each of those houses probably at the time we had just gave us about 20 grand worth of equity um and over time those eight houses have probably given us um just from that one advert which was 1500 quid which was the last 1500 pound we had i had to convince chris to get an overdraft i think so so the so the check would clear um and after that we were off to the races because we had a proven model

48:33Leanne:so this was kind of 2007 2008 time the beginning of the global financial crisis repossession was high so I guess business was booming um I mean what was the what was the growth trajectory of your your business oh well I think we we went from literally starting um let's just say arbitrarily May uh 2006 um we started then I was obviously bankrupt at that point um and we bought our first house in I think say September 2006 and then it was 18 months and we bought 38, 39 houses in that period. Right, right. Yes. Something like that. 37, 38 houses over 18 months. But at some point we were buying two or three houses a week.

49:14And it just grew and grew and grew. And of course, the more we got good at the process, the more we could go to the court with the repossessee, if that's a word. And we knew what to say to make the judge give them a 56 day extension so that we could buy their house. So the growth was phenomenal, but then it just finished as soon as it started like it's finished like the same speed that it started because like you said the global financial crisis people were you're getting mortgages for nothing and people will give you a mortgage if you just if you had a pen to sign the documents then didn't ever check your income and then if anyone's seen um the big short then back 2008 blender started going to the wall and then we got i think was the the point the day we knew it had finished was when we were due to complete the next day on a property for this poor couple who'd had a really shit time.

50:06I think there'd be a death in the family or something like that. They were about to get repossessed. We were buying it two days before the repossession date and the lender pulled their funds and we just couldn't get another mortgage. So we were like, well, this is it. So we've let these people down and we know that we can't buy any more houses for a while because we can't get any more mortgages.

50:25Leanne:It's interesting that you tell that story and so that you let these people down rather than reflect on your disappointment of not being able to buy your 39th property. Yeah, I think that's definitely a theme is that with everything we do, like with Oblong we're doing together, my primary, and this sounds like an advert for Oblong, it's not, but my primary thing is how can you help someone to get what they want? Because I think it's Jim Rohn who says that in order to get what you want, help others get what they want. So I've always sort of like tried to think that way. And now I think naturally I do of just like taking responsibility for a problem, for a solution to a problem.

51:07And then even if that solution doesn't involve you earning any money, still ensuring that the person can has a solution to that problem. Like, for example, we're buying the houses. We probably had about a thousand applications for help. I would guess about half of those. We told them we gave them some free advices. all you have to do is this, this, this. It won't cost you any money. We won't make any money from it, but that's what you need to do and you'll solve your problem. So there was probably half of the people we spoke to, we never made any money from, but I took a personal, such a, I used to stay up to like three o 'clock in the morning, answering these emails, helping people out, sending them links to resources and telling them the strategies they should be doing, because I just felt like I was helping someone.

51:45And it was just great because you made a difference to that person's life. Huge difference.

51:49Leanne:Where do those values come from? So I suppose a lot of it's come from my parents that you should help people if you can. But also there's, I've always been a little bit fatalistic, whereas you don't know who you're going to help. You know, you stop at the side of a road with someone who's, um, someone whose car's broken down and then you maybe sit with them in the rain and they sit in your car and you ring the AA and all that kind of stuff. And then that person turns out to be, um, to be the next prime minister, for example. And even if they never see you again, the fact is that had they, had you not stopped that night, then perhaps someone would have come down and smashed into them and killed them and then they never would have been the next prime minister for example so i kind of like this weird fatalistic sort of idea that maybe it's not fatalistic maybe i'm thinking something different but that you never know what people are going to do and what they're going to do with their lives so if you can help someone in a in a small way then you may never know it but their son daughter or whatever goes on in their life it could have such an amazing effect on the world and it's sort of like a reverse butterfly sort of idea you know the idea of the butterfly flapping its wings in japan and then earthquake in australia sort of like the opposite of that and i think that that's always something that i know you and i liam we we look at things and go how can we help someone not how can we get something out of them and that's made a massive difference i think so you built the the property portfolio up um so a business that is no longer well tell us about that business so as you said that um all the mortgages start to be poor lenders were changing their policies um what happened with the the properties what happened with you and chris then so we stopped buying stuff in about 2007 uh we just held our held our properties uh didn't sell anything for about five years i don't think and just basically rented out um and we were quite lucky in that the global financial crisis meant that interest rates dropped so um at one point I think they were 0.25 % and our mortgages were 0.5 below the base.

53:50So in theory, they should have been paying us. But actually there was some mortgages, either they were zero, I can't remember if they were zero a month or they were just rather than 300 when they started off with, they were like 50 quid. So we got, we had some opportunity with that. And then over time, I've started to lose a bit of interest in the property side of it. I'm still interested in the investment side of it, but not the property side of it. Whereas Chris's interest has just massively grown. He's doing his own developments. He's absolutely killing it at the moment around Manchester and Salford.

54:16And that's what he does for a living. He does property. So we are at the point now where I think we are looking to sort of slightly change things around so that I become more of an investor rather than actually a property manager, because management is not my strength. It's definitely more starting things and getting, you know, solving problems. We want different things. I think he's got a young family. We haven't, you know, we want to travel. we want to we we love moving around europe and travel he doesn't he wants to stay where he is so definitely things have i think things things have changed massively in our lives we're still very grateful that our wealth has come from these properties and will continue to come from the properties but i like everything it changes and your and your perceptions and your what's important to your life changes and therefore i think your business needs to change at that point as well

55:05Leanne:so how did that change for you what does um how did you kind of go from properties into what you're doing now one thing that i i got really good at was marketing and copywriting because that's how i wrote the google ads this is my very first like foray into marketing really was google ads and so i wrote the ads i wrote the landing page copy um i even this is for the properties i'm sorry this is for the properties yes so we're going back to 2005 six seven and that's what i I was writing. Then I used to do follow-up letters. There was a guy called Chris Cardell. I don't know if any of you are old enough to remember Chris Cardell, but he used to do all these webinars or these, actually there were tele-seminars back then.

55:42You'd pick up the phone and ring in onto this teleconference. And he used to teach marketing stuff. And in the end, he'd try and sell you something, of course. But I learned loads from him, so I copied him. And so I started to get really good at marketing. And then when we couldn't buy any more properties and I was like, well, what do I do? I didn't want to go and get a job, even though we both applied for jobs. We've just looked at each other like, we're not doing this. And so I went off and started becoming a marketing consultant. In fact, I started a marketing company, which then morphed into a web design company.

56:08So maybe a year ago after doing all that, so Leanne was doing stuff, you know, business psychologist, self-employed. I was doing marketing, self-employed, and we're just having a drink one night. We're like, why don't we put, you know, why don't we work together and I do the marketing and you do the psychologizing.

56:20Leanne:As you look back then on your career, I guess I have a few questions. What do you see as your biggest success? yes marrying you of course in your career i think it's probably just helping i don't know sounds really cheesy this but the fact that you know there was 39 families there were that we that we saved from bankruptcy i say from repossession uh there was another two or 300 people who we saved by helping them to remortgage or helping them to um to restructure their debt so they weren't in so much financial strife. And I just remember getting like sometimes getting emails from people who I'd helped months ago, just going back and saying, thank you so much.

57:05I've done, I've did everything you told me to do. Now I can afford things. I'm on this repayment plan. I've spoke to my mortgage company, et cetera, et cetera. And that was just filled me with joy that we were just, we could help all these people. So I would say probably the biggest success is the property business but not i mean financially yes it's successful for both of us and for chris and his family but really it's the biggest success was that we made such a big difference to so many people's lives who were just desperate and despondent and didn't know where to turn and that was pretty incredible what is the biggest lesson you've learned of the last 20 is oh maybe it's just as simple as always do what you say you're going to do i think that's probably it because in almost all this all the concept all the situations i can think of when we haven't or when i or someone working with hasn't done what they said they were going to do nothing good has ever happened um a few times like we were buying houses and we did some more calculations realized when it went got it wrong and went back to this woman and said i'm so sorry we can't give you the price we originally we made a miscalculation it can only be this price oh my god you'd think that we'd broken in stolen her cat and set fire to it in the garden because she was so angry with us and i think that is just like it's just because if you get the reputation of doing what you say you're going to do then people are going to trust you but more importantly you never have to look at someone across the room and go oh shit i said i'd that thing for them i never did i can't speak to bob uh quick talk to me or we'll have to go somewhere else you can hold your head up high and walk through life knowing that every single thing you promised you kept those promises on of course i've not i've mocked that up lots of times but each time i feel awful about doing it so i think that's probably the biggest lesson it's not very

58:58Leanne:exciting one though what are your your hopes for your future in business it's funny you know i'm 45 now. I don't have the same hopes, dreams that I had when I was 25. Because you and I have a very, I mean, this is a bit of a weird interview because obviously you know so much about me. But all the stuff I've told you said here that I don't think I've ever told you. But our life is very different now. So for me, it's not about building a business, selling it. I'm not interested and nor have I got the energy to work like I did when I was 25 to work to build something amazing. So my goals for the business is more of the same.

59:43Talk to people, show them a solution or help or you show them a solution because it's technical, show them a solution and even if that solution isn't our solution, show them the right solution.

59:55Leanne:Do you consider yourself to be successful? yeah, I think I do now because I don't measure it against anything really. I don't care how much money we've got in the bank. As long as there's enough for when I go and get some money out, there's enough money there. You know, I don't get excited about having X number of thousands or tens of thousands in savings accounts or investments. I don't really care. So yeah, I think I'm successful because I don't care about success. I think that's probably what it is. I no longer care about success the way I used to and so therefore I think I'm successful. What advice would you give to 15 year old Al who was in school feeling awkward, not feeling clever in comparison to his siblings, not feeling particularly popular, what advice would you give him?

1:00:50Nothing, I'd leave him the fuck alone, i honestly would i would not i would not say or i would not change anything i would not say anything because you don't know like it could be that if i went back there i could tell him that actually um nerds are going to be really popular really like you know they're going to be quite cool at some point um you know in the in the mid 2000s 2010 um i could tell him that it doesn't matter because this is going to happen in your life but anything i would say if i disturbed the tiniest little bit I don't want to get all back to the future on you but if I disturb the tiniest little bit then I wouldn't be here today with a podcast or two podcasts that I'm very proud of a lovely wife who I work really well with a business where we genuinely get to help people and we get to sit in you know in a different country most of the time doing different things so I would not give him any advice I'd just let him carry on knowing that he's gonna be miserable for a little bit, but then ultimately he's going to be happy.

1:01:50Leanne:Join Samaritans. Oh, join Samaritans. Yes, that's a great bit of advice. That's how Leanne and I met. We're both in Samaritans, both volunteers. That made a massive difference. In fact, that's probably the biggest thing that made the difference to business and my life today is the Samaritans, just because not only did I meet my lovely wife, but I learned so much about listening, about just putting your own life into context you know oh you you went overdrawn today well here's someone whose mum died and they just can't see a way to carry on you know it's just a great way to contextualize what's actually going on in your life so you're absolutely right join samaritans that's in the uk join samaritans it is one of the best things you can do for yourself i mean on that what advice would you give to i guess any kids out there who might be you know don't want to go to university or decided not to perhaps have an idea to start their own business is there any advice you'd give give to them yeah i think first of all don't chase the dollar um that's never going to make you happy um secondly build a network just go and meet more and more people we used to go we took the guy who started lastminute.com we took him out for for breakfast one morning we just i just basically kept sending him emails going i want to take your breakfast i want to take you for breakfast and asked him like, how did you start?

1:03:10Whatever, we learned loads of stuff from him. So I would say, build your network, listen to other people. And then one of my sort of maxims is be rich, not right. Don't say I've created a brand new X for Y and then spend three, four, six, eight, 12 months building it, whether it's tech or whether it's a service or whatever. Just go out there and see if your Y, the people you're building this for, see if they actually want it and where they care about the problem. validate your idea and don't get rid of your ego because your ego is the thing that's going to ruin

1:03:46Leanne:everything for you why would why would the ego ruin everything for you because i think that ego stands in your way and get and and there are so many people i know who are obsessed with being right about something to the point where they will go bankrupt to decide trying to be right They will be in a job that they hate because they want to be right and never want to be wrong. And I think that this whole idea of making mistakes is so, so important that by trying to avoid being wrong, you're going to avoid about 90 % of all the good things that are going to happen to you. So don't let your ego stop you from trying new things, even if the odds are that you're going to be wrong about it.

1:04:33do you think that you went bankrupt because you were trying to be right oh yeah yeah yeah 100 100 i to give you the to put it in context i told you i built a walk-in fridge um i rented an apart i rented a not an apartment an old garage i had phone lines put in i had printers i had all sorts of stuff put into this office before i sold a single thing whereas i could have started that business a day after the idea by going by basically advertising. And when someone said, I want four cans of Stella, I go to the shop and buy four cans of Stella, even though actually that wouldn't have worked because of the licensing law, which I was actually getting around.

1:05:10But, but you know, go and buy like a couple of cases of Stella, a couple of cases of Carlsberg, few bottles of wine. I could have put probably 800 pounds into stock, another 500 pounds into advertising. And I could have validated that idea in about six weeks. And I would have known in six weeks, probably there's not really much money in it, which is why I went bankrupt because it wasn't very profitable. Whereas instead I went and got this loan, 40 grand, I got an overdraft, I got this and I got a van and I got the other, because I felt that's what you needed to start a business. You don't, to start a business, you just need a number of people to say, I will buy what you're selling and there's a check and that's it.

1:05:46No business cards. You don't, and if you'll start thinking oh well how do i how do i register as a business in my in my county oh it's difficult i've got to do paperwork my advice which is not legal advice is to fuck it just try it and if you start to get 20 or 30 people who want your stuff okay well then you probably need to look into the actual you know the the bureaucracy of getting a business started but and you don't have a business just

1:06:10Leanne:because you've got a business card i think that's a good note to end it on i'll thank you for your honesty and your candor and i think my favorite thing about about al is is his humility and just is his willingness and joy of just throwing himself into different things um you might think you know i'll know but there are at least five or six jobs he's had that you didn't even mention that they all have stories behind him so fear not if you meet al one day you can still sit down and have a couple of pints and hear a good story. Al, thank you so, so much. Thank you, love. And it's kind of weird being interviewed by someone you know so well, but you asked some great questions and stuff I'd never really thought about.

1:06:53That was the incredible Al Elliott.

1:06:57Leanne:Phenomenal professional. Phenomenal professional, yes, exactly. No, you are. You are, Deng. You are. You've been through. You've been through a lot and you've really, you're a proper entrepreneur. And I think when people, you know, we say you're a business owner, you are a business owner of two different businesses. And you've started several before. And you're a proper entrepreneur to the point where, like, you found the loophole in the licensing laws and, yeah, went to war with them and almost won. They hadn't changed those pesky licensing laws. I fought the law and the law won. Oh, well, you make me feel uncomfortable now.

1:07:38You were saying nice things. I was looking around at my desk trying to find something to fidget with. I was like, stop it being all British. Like, no, no, no, not really. No, no.

1:07:45Leanne:No, it's awesome. It's awesome. And yeah, even in terms of kind of all the ethical approach to the property business, it's a really cool thing that you saw an opportunity at a time where people were struggling and it massively helped them. Anyway. So that was that we interviewed with that interview was four years ago almost. Tell me about the last four years, Al. What has been your proudest moment, your biggest learning moment? What stands out for you in the last four years? There's a great sales trainer. I can't remember exactly what his name is. He says, timid salespeople have skinny kids. And he said, the quickest way, Jim Rohn, perhaps, the quickest way to get what you want is to help other people get what they want.

1:08:28And I think by helping you as much as I can get your voice out there, I've got so much stuff. There are people like Danny and Richard and Jeremy who I would say are friends, Christian, who I'd say are friends now that I've met through the pod and never would have met. So that's probably one of the biggest learnings I would have said. The other thing is, and this is going to sound really weird to anyone in their 20s, is you just don't have the energy or the fucks. Like you did in your 20s, all the stuff I used to do is work 80 hours a week and now I'm like, can I do this in 20? and then they go can I actually do it in 15 hours a week and still get the same quality and it's funny it's not about being lazy it's just more like you only have a certain amount of energy in a day as you get older and so you go well I'm going to put that all that energy into this thing today and then that's that's me done for the day rather than when you're 20 you're like right look at my task list I'm going to get as much I possibly can done now my task list now the most important thing I do is I go right I get one of these tiny little bits of paper and I only put on tasks that will fit on that bit of paper and usually there's only like four or five and often i'll cheat and put one i've really done on so i can i can tick it off what about you love

1:09:38Leanne:i think i'm with you on the on the energy or certainly the amount of books you've got left to give and that is a brilliant book by the way there's a lot of not giving a fuck i read that in my early 30s yeah yeah it's a good time to read it yeah it definitely helped me put things into perspective because i think that the kind of slightly dark reality is once you're in your mid 40s to late 40s there's not that much time left like there's more time gone than it probably will like than is ahead um so you need to yeah use your time carefully and for things that you care about and have meaning and and yeah contribute to other aspects of your life my biggest thing that i i always knew is important i didn't appreciate how how important is network yes and i'm not talking about network for network's sake i'm not talking about just going to like doing networking groups should you travel lodge for breakfast and yeah i'm sure they do like virtual ones now and like coffee things and it's not just that in terms of like going into it going what can i sell you what can i get from this just a genuine genuine belief that relationships are what makes everything work and investing in them over time and and the great thing we have the opportunity to do with this podcast is to is to help other people shine and put their messages out there that's our only agenda is that they sound great and they're they're putting something important into the world and that process has as you said brought incredible people into our lives both on a personal and professional level and yeah the people who are who are more connected than you might realize as well you suddenly realize your one degree of separation from adam grant for example or other people and and and yeah i learned this when i i used to work in executive branding so like top 10 of of leaders and the most successful people like the highest people were always the absolute nicest best to work with and that's what i've seen as well through the people we meet like the the big cheeses the ones that have got you know a lot of um influence are just lovely lovely people yeah absolutely absolutely and it's funny because you just said there um that we work really hard to make our guests look great um and that is basically giving you know you get what you want by helping other people get what they want and uh and those those guests people might not know but the guests sometimes when we do interviews um the interviews don't aren't quite don't flow quite as well as they could do all there's lots of ums and ahs and stuff and so we we spend a lot of time taking that out repurposing content, well, removing content around, because we're so keen on making the guest.

1:12:19And that's one of the things which does slightly annoy me when we put all this effort, because we do probably put 10 to 12 hours of effort into it.

1:12:27Leanne:Easy. Easy, easy. And then they just don't share it. I know. Yeah, I'm looking at you, sweaty startup. Yeah. Oh, cool. He's not been listening. He doesn't think about me at all. He pops up on my YouTube all the time. Oh, he doesn't think about me at all. No, no. Anyway, but that's the thing. I think you put your energy to those people who do. And you've got to kiss a lot of frogs. Yes. And we've had more people on the show that we haven't stayed in touch with than we do or haven't shared the episode than have. But yeah. Yeah, you find the gold. Yes, exactly. So talking of gold, luckily that's the end of it, I think.

1:13:01Is there anything else to add to the...

1:13:02Leanne:Did you have a nice birthday? I had a lovely, lovely birthday. And today, those of you who are in our inner circle know that we're building a house in Herzegovina. And so today we're off to the plot. the parcel of land to decide exactly where the house is going to be where the pool's going to be where the terrace is going to be so it's all very very exciting where the party huts are going to be for next year exactly so if you are interested get in touch I'm going to send you some photos which incidentally Leanne if you're looking for a birthday idea it was so lovely Leanne gave me a photo album yesterday it was half full of all the photos we've already taken of the parcel of land including when we very first saw it including before it got cleared including pictures of her with a big JCB.

1:13:46And that was such a lovely, lovely... Leanne's really good at birthdays. Sorry, the donut you bought yesterday is starting to repeat on me. I sounded a bit emotional then. It wasn't necessarily emotional. It was just the donut that I ate this morning for breakfast, which is probably... Yeah, it's not my birthday, so I shouldn't be able to do that. Okay, my love. It's your birthday, boxing day.

1:14:03Leanne:You can do whatever you want. Yeah, no, that's it. Tune in on Thursday. We have an awesome guest. normal programming resumes on thursday who's we got we have the fabulous laurie mcpherson now laurie is an expert in getting people jobs but we talk a little bit more about um how selection processes work we talk about resumes and how important they are we also talk about ways in which you can sneak in the back door that's not a bit rude sneak in the back door into it yes sneaky very very sneaky sir um and it's just a fabulous interview so if you are a recruiter or if you are looking for a job or if you think you might be looking for a job, then this is definitely the episode for you.

1:14:42And if you're a founder, definitely listen in for this as well because there's loads of great tips about the mindset of someone looking for a job, which is just gold.

1:14:50Leanne:Yeah, it's an interesting one. And then come back again next Tuesday, This Week in Work. We'll return with the return of Dr. Jake Tuba. JT in the house. See you on Thursday. Bye.