305. How to go from Founder back to Employee (Without the Shame), with Laurie MacPherson

0:00Laurie MacPherson:Here's something nobody seems to be talking about. Thousands of founders who went self-employed during COVID are now quietly trying to get a job and they're too ashamed to tell anyone. Our guest today, Laurie MacPherson, is a career and LinkedIn mentor who works with people making exactly that transition. And she says the shame is real, but so is the practical problem. Most of them are going about the job hunt completely wrong. Case in point, one of her clients had applied for a CEO level role alongside 437 other candidates. Laurie's advice was stop applying immediately. Today, Laurie's going to tell us why the job market punishes founders who apply like everyone else, how to handle the shame of going back and what actually works.

0:49Hello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture. brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.

1:02Laurie MacPherson:My name is Al. I'm a business owner and we are here to help you simplify the science of work. Laurie has a brutally honest take on why most founders are invisible to recruiters right now and a surprisingly simple fix. That's coming up right after a quick message from our sponsors. If you've ever done sales for your business, then I bet this is going to be familiar. Your pipeline looks full, activity looks great, but you're not sure which leads matter, which ones are wasting your week and which call you should have made three days ago. It can all be very confusing, Al. Very confusing. But luckily, HubSpot's prospecting agent gives you a clear way forward.

1:41It shows you who's actually ready, gives the details of the reps you need and points them towards the conversations worth having. So reps know exactly where to focus and what they're walking into.

1:52Laurie MacPherson:Check out HubSpot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

2:01Laurie MacPherson:We're joined here by Laurie McPherson, a really, really interesting woman. Apparently, looking at your LinkedIn, there isn't a job that you haven't done. I'm loving it. Hotel Chocolat and now your own consultancy. You said you spent a lot of time on retail, but I'm introducing you and I don't want to do that. I'm going to ask you, can you tell us, Laurie, who you are and what you do now? I am a career and LinkedIn mentor. And yeah, you're absolutely right. There is not a job I haven't had. I once went out on my lunch break to buy some biscuits and got a new job. Famously, I worked in retail for many, many years.

2:36You're right, retail management. I also worked in travel overseas for TUI, Thompson, as they were then, which was amazing. Six years on land and two on sea. Now I help mainly mid and senior level women to find their next role in this market, which is, sure, we'll talk about that. And also, as a result of doing that, business owners were consistently asking, how do you get LinkedIn like that? How do you be yourself on LinkedIn? Your LinkedIn is so real. It's so you. Mine sounds so stilted. You know, I default to Elizabethan English when I go on there. Please help. And now I also mentor business owners to use LinkedIn and actually sound like a real person.

3:19And I'm a huge believer in the benefits of using that to grow your business.

3:23Laurie MacPherson:One of the things that intrigued me was, I believe, now I've got it written down, it's called The Great Re-entry. Now, I've heard of The Great Resignation, but can you tell me what The Great Resignation was and what you're calling The Great Re-entry? Yes, the great resignation was during COVID, people thinking, I want more purpose. I want more joy. I don't want to go back to that office. Like, this is actually lovely. I love this working from home. That has its pitfalls and its dark side. Again, we can come to that. But lots of folk left their jobs, specifically in things like finance. Sal, you know, it was really boxed in and they're suddenly thinking, I want to go work for a charity and, you know, bring joy to the world.

4:01Absolutely brilliant. And so many people are talking about purpose in the workplace. And it's so important, you know, and I'm sitting here thinking, I can't blame anyone for wanting more purpose. What I do, what you do, is just an absolute joy to do. It's so filled with purpose in everything that I do and everyone that I meet, I absolutely love. so I get it but also it led to a lot of people leaving the workplace for self-employment too and thinking I'll just set up on my own and bring in that you know amazing purpose and I'll have all that wonderful flexibility that business ownership brings she says laughing and so then six years on the great re-entry is women in particular realising oh I'm not making any money I'm really lonely I'm really sad I'm sitting in my house all day in my pajamas doing work that people can judge like copywriting and graphic design you know thanks for all your work but I don't like it they don't know if their work is good bad or indifferent they're very very much struggling and they're trying to get back into work and the job market is so so difficult so they also have a great deal of resentment about that because look at me I've come out and I've gained all these skills what do you mean you don't want me and it's a tough time because there's a huge amount of failure and guilt and shame associated with it because of the way that we make it seem that business ownership is the pinnacle and it's for everyone so those who are trying to get away from it it's a massive internal struggle because they came out for a reason and now they have to go back And it's really, really hard right now.

5:45And it's a really messy transition and people handle it really badly online and publicly and privately.

5:52Laurie MacPherson:I want to go into a lot more of how you would help someone. So we'll create some fictitious person. We'll call her Marjorie. And she has started a business and now she needs to re-enter or wants to re-enter the workforce. We'll come back to Marjorie in a second. Something you said there has just occurred to me. the way that we talk about business versus jobs you use the phrase I'm gonna have to take a job whereas we always say I'm gonna start a business so even the actual language feels like you're giving up a bit yeah absolutely you know I'm gonna have to take a job because I can't pay my bills as opposed to this joyous period of starting a business which you know if I remember rightly wasn't that joyous I was in the middle of redundancy with ingeous and trying to network and grow a business and create a website and all this stuff as well as work full-time wasn't that fun if i remember rightly um but yeah there's a sense of failure with that i have to take i'm kind of admitting failure here i've seen it i'm in a lot of business networking groups and you know the chat someone this month has just done it and said i'm gonna have to take a job girls because i'm not making any money what you know what should i do or that as I say they're very lots of business owners are very very lonely sitting in their houses with no no one who gets it and you know other people are lovely friends and family absolutely lovely and so well-meaning unless they're running a business they don't they don't get it and even my really one of my really good friends has a partner who's a trade and she runs an online business and he doesn't get it either he's like well I don't have to dance on TikTok to increase my membership.

7:31I just, you know, turn up, do my trade and get paid. You know, yeah, you do. But here's, this is the reality of the work that we do. And I think there is that real, you know, well, my husband doesn't have to do all that social media stuff. Other people don't do all that. So it's bound with rules and no rules and shame. And yeah, it's complicated.

7:53Laurie MacPherson:So this Marjorie we just invented a minute ago, she comes to you and goes, right, I was a freelance graphic designer. and that's where I rebranded as, I want to go back or I have to go back to work. It sounds to me like the shame part of it is probably a core part that you deal with. So how would you talk to Marjorie and help her to get over that? So I would say to her, Marjorie, you had the courage to set out on your own. You know, you've learned so many skills. You've got so much in your toolkit. This is about a moment in time. It's not forever. You don't have to stay in this new job till you retire or die, whichever comes first, which is a phrase I always use with clients who are panicking about stuff.

8:35And actually look at all the things that you've got. We have to be mindful of the wording and the language that we use for those new employers. But first of all, you have to accept for yourself. It's not forever. It's a chapter. And if that helps, that was the time, you know, I box it off and I say that was the time I worked there. you know that was the time I ran the business that was the time I had a part-time job it could be a time you run the business again we're in a very difficult economic situation right now which you know I hope doesn't last forever could we could we make it a moment in time could we say look at all the skills I've gained but know that no employer needs all those skills so let's not go to them with oh and by the way I can also do my accounts and taxes because don't actually need you to and it's a bit scary and we'll watch how we use the language around it actually first of all give yourself a wee bit of grace and some credit for having the courage to start a business and run a business and do all of that good work you know you have all these skills that others don't have let's box that off and let's get going with the actual nuts and bolts

9:43Laurie MacPherson:of now getting a job in this market so marjorie was let's just say chief operations officer for a large company so she was a big deal when you're coaching her to go back and find work are you telling her to go in at the same level or are we looking at lower or how do you approach it yeah usually i would say the same level and usually before marjorie starts i would tell her that her job is going to come from her network before she starts with the process of sending out half-baked cvs your job will come from your network marjorie but first you've got to tell them and that is the point where lots of business owners I've sat down with and bear in mind that this all happens in the the quiet bits all right you're sitting next to someone having a wine and they'll say yeah my business is absolutely you know I'm gonna have to take a job Laurie but I say oh that that won't be a problem you're really well connected really well liked you're lovely we're here today at this event with all these other professionals who could use yourself oh Hank I can't tell anybody say okay I hear you you know I understand you not wanting to admit defeat as you see it but your job is in your network your job is not sending an application in with 437 others actual figure and this is someone last week who came to me and said I'm going for a CEO role so not entry level 437 other applicants Laurie how do I stand out and I say you don't take yourself out of that get a job through your network go and tell people you are looking and crucially and for what and how you can help them and one of them will give you a job but you have to tell them because if they don't know you're looking no one's going to come to me and say i've got a great job for you laurie because it looks like everything's fine in my business which it is by the way um but you know it's it's that it's no one's going to come in case they offend or upset you, you have to tell them.

11:40And don't, you know, and then you get, oh, but you get all people argue then for their, they argue for the limitations. Oh, but I can't tell him, he doesn't. So don't tell him. Start safe. Start with the people who you know would help and then work out. Start and always work out who is the safest person you can tell today that you're looking and for what. And they will come through for you.

12:04Laurie MacPherson:I had a friend who had a business. And he was like, yeah, business going great. I've got myself a Lexus with twin exhausts. And look at me. This is back about 2000. And then when I met up with him a year later, he said, yeah, yes, things are going really well. I'm working with phones for you at the moment. I'm like, wow, that's a big company. What I didn't realize was, and I think you already have worked it out. He was in the shop selling phones. He had a job selling entry-level jobs selling phones. I almost lost, well, I did lose respect for him because he kind of lied to me rather than going, no it didn't work out i had to go and get a job so what did he do wrong what could he have done right what how do we position this to our friends without losing a bit of face we first of all we have to position it to ourselves first we have to and sometimes we have to have i call it a holding phrase right i'll give you a really good example so i posted one day about walking out of a job right 11 years ago to the date of whatever posted this post and it's one of those where nobody likes and comments on the post because they can't they can't say i'd like to walk out of mine can you help me on the front fees right that's not a thing so that's why i get about you know like linkedin metrics it doesn't matter what matters is this woman messaged me in my inbox and said hi i've just walked out my job this morning you were clearly sent to me today and can we chat so i was like yeah you know i broke my usual protocol of can you book in and all that i just said yeah what's your number i'll phone you so i did and she said oh my i've just walked out and it was a really nice high level high paying jobs i said okay first things first and this is going to sound a bit woo and i'm not at all protect yourself before you tell your parents who are going to say why on earth did you walk out of a well-paying job protect yourself like have a phrase ready like you know i i don't know what's coming next but i'm really excited to explore my options have a stock hold phrase for anyone who won't get it and just repeat it yeah no i'm not quite sure but I'm looking forward to finding out.

14:06Yep, no, not 100 % nailed down yet, but I'm working on it, you know. Keep saying it, keep smiling. They will back off slowly. Sometimes you have to have a holding phrase and be ready and be aware of who you're going to need to put that out there for. Usually it's your parents. I'm not generalising them. I've just had a call on mine who's saying, you know, but they're paying you really well for that. Yeah, but it's, you know, my bit's no wonder. yeah but they're paying you yeah but still still feeling the snow dunderness you know because they value different things than what we value you know they value security over purpose sometimes and she said oh my god they're going to exactly say that because you know my dad was a minor and he's going to say oh it's all right for you eight grand you're turning it down we had asked yep they're going to say it so be ready just protect yourself while we're doing this work in the background here's what we need to do practically first of all there's a bit of an emotional thing that you have to do You have to accept that it's time to get the help, first of all.

15:02Then you have to go to your people like you, Al, and say, yeah, it didn't work out. Oh, do you know what? I loved the delivery, but I wasn't so great at this. You know, I was fantastic at this. Not so good at that. You know, everyone talks about the flexibility, Al. Reality is always checking my phone on the toilet. Not so good. You know, have a lovely, you know, I say it all the time, you know, first thing I do in the morning honestly it's check how my meta ads are running I wish it wasn't and all the well-being folks you can come at me all you like but that's what we do because that's who we are so have a get ready in your own mind and then have a bit of a phrase yeah listen hasn't hasn't worked I'm taking a job right now well I decide what to do next and stop talking and I think that's the crucial bit because we over you know the person will ask if they have questions but we over go into you know there was this and there was that and there was my tax bill and actually the person's just concerned that we're okay usually i want to talk more about the optics of

15:58Laurie MacPherson:going for a job so you're sitting in front of a recruiter or you're sitting in front of an of someone who wants it who wants to give you a job you followed your advice you haven't gone and applied for a job with 427 other people you have applied you've used your network you're sitting in front of the person who wants to give you a job they go i thought you had a business how do we handle that question? We say, I did, you know, I chose to start a business. I got, I had some great clients, I had some brilliant work. Did you see the work that I did for X? But ultimately, do you know what? This is going to sound a bit sad, but I actually really missed being part of a team.

16:33I really missed having colleagues to talk to. I really missed making my lunch with someone. I really missed being on my own all the time. And, you know, graphic design, you never know if it's right or wrong and if they like it or if they don't. and just sitting with that all day just really wasn't good for me so here I am with all these new skills ready to go I've done this myself in a situation I left Glasgow went to do a job in Edinburgh it was awful the whole thing was awful and when I came back I'd only been away six months my new boss who said so why are you leaving this job and I said what can I say you know I'm a Glasgow girl I just prefer I have my friends in my life are here I very and I said I very bravely six months ago packed up my life to move through and now I'm even braverlier realising it didn't work and I'm coming back and then I stopped talking and they looked to each other the area manager and the and the um his manager and they went yeah can't argue with that can you and you see if you give them something they can't argue with I prefer working as a team you can't actually I'll argue with that.

17:39Laurie MacPherson:So we're fixing things one by one with Marjorie. So Marjorie now has told her friends and family. Marjorie has now used her network to get some opportunities. Marjorie's now had the interview and it's gone very well because she's used exactly what you said there. She's now got the job. There's going to be things Marjorie's missing about working for herself. She's going to miss the autonomy, potentially. She's going to miss the freedom. is there a point in your experience where someone is marjorie six months in and goes i can't do this i want to go back and start another business yeah there can be and it is and this is why it's risky for the employer let's be honest and that's why recruiter like an agency recruiter usually goes it's really risky but here's how you can de-risk it and again i've done this so i was a holiday rep traveled for six years on land two on sea came back and wanted another job in retail and the area manager grilled me and said and he actually did get over me his manager was sat behind him in a really weird setup to see to watch his interview style which was basically you know um interrogation lights in my eyes which i was completely fine with i have the next holiday i was like bring it on um many a woman would have crumbled but i was like yeah he said what there's a massive risk that you just decide i'm going back abroad i said yeah there is but there's also i've done it i've been there i've chosen to come back for a reason john in the corner there who's looking out the window he's actually more of a risk because he might just decide one day i'm off i've made a choice to come back so i think there is that for a recruiter or a manager's point of view this person has made a choice to take a job i cannot promise you they will never leave to start another business like we can so you do that there is that there is that risk and i wish there wasn't but there is and i'm going to be really honest about that am i right in thinking of understanding that you help people to make that transition into work and then do you still work with them when in the first few months or is that more of a different service yeah i do and i have a service which is you know a longer term maintaining which is for folks who are not moving right now um but who want to progress you know i've got someone i've just been on a call with someone who's got a job she's in there she's doing grand she wants to want to stay there forever so we're working on getting her ready to take on a board role and so we're doing the work on the cv and the achievements and what boards need to hear because in my experience committees and boards people get people forget that they still have to apply and they do this whole here's what this will bring to me bizarre thing and actually the boards are like we don't care we need you to do it for us so we just had this conversation about here's what you need to tell them to fit what they need you to To me, it's the same as any other role, only, you know, you don't get paid for it.

20:30So, yeah, I help them with the first. It can be the first time in a new job if the last job hasn't gone well. But you go into a new role and you set your boundaries from the start, whether those are I am someone who always posts on LinkedIn. So that there's not that you must be looking for a new job. I see you posted on LinkedIn or you're someone who finishes at five o 'clock on the door or whatever it is that you need to bring to the new job. it's much easier to start from scratch than upset and annoy your current employer and colleagues by suddenly changing midway through a role. I'm not saying don't do it but it's much harder.

21:07If you're like me and you hate all this workaholic hustle nonsense on the socials and somebody's getting up at 3am to drink butter then here is a brand new podcast that I know. If you're like me and you hate all this workaholic hustle nonsense that's all over the socials, you know that dude who's getting up at like 3am to drink butter. Well, here is a brand new podcast that I know you will love. It is called Seven Day Weekend and is, of course, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals where all good podcasts live.

21:40Laurie MacPherson:I'm going to try and get through this. The Seven Day Weekend is your weekly dose of business finance and side hustle motivation. So go subscribe and get brand new episodes featuring a mixture of guests and Laura's hard-earned tips that'll teach you how to build the digital tools necessary to build your own seven-day weekend. No butter required. For a taste of what's to come, go and listen to A Day in the Life of an Anti-Workholic, where Laura explains how to maximize your productivity with some fun and quirky techniques while living your best life. This is so up my street. listen to seven day weekend wherever you get your podcasts

22:21Laurie MacPherson:what's the actual best way you can interview regardless of whether you're a business owner or not but what's the best way what are your tips so it's front um front foot is my saying which i learned through a brilliant company i worked with who are unfortunately and no longer in existence which was called the lens and they talked about that front foot energy so you go in and sit over and on the questions you know as if you're already as if as if you're already in it not in a not in an arrogant way but in a you know a confident and they're invited you to interview for a reason so many people and i mostly work with women i'll sit back into it waiting like this for the awkward question to come you know so laurie i noticed that your job hopped a lot in your um yes i did actually first of all my thing alice i can see what the awkward question that they're going to ask is not everybody can because we go through thinking yeah but i've done not done anything wrong i've done it all right i've got this i've done this stuff um and actually there's an awkward question usually you know there was an overlap there yeah i started i started a business while i was while i was working i got my website and started my networking and i had built a bit of an audience that's the right thing to do but you know i can always see the awkward question coming for my clients so I tell them here's the awkward question you have two choices you sit and sweat waiting for them to ask it and it will undo all the good work of all your other answers or you take it and you answer it the first three minutes tell me about yourself you will have noticed that you might have seen that so here's why and then you shut it down and I've seen them in one of my interviews she had a pen ready to write question two which was tell me about gaps and she just scored through it.

24:05She went, well, you've already answered that. You're taking control of the awkward elephant in the room and we all have one. Most of us have one, you know. So why did you start a business and then leave it? Why did you overlap? Why did you job hop? Own it. Tell them straight away. It's risky. But for me, it's riskier to sit waiting nervously for it to undo all the good work. And there's also, of course, recency bias that happens that it's the thing that they hear last that they'll remember. so start it get it out the way and crack on and a bit of you know asking them good questions people say what should i ask them you know ask them you know why why is the job in existence and also i caught up your sleeve um until like we did some intel with one client i was working with and she found out that it wasn't even on their website yet but like the day before we just googled them they had an 80 million pound investment so there's obviously that's huge opportunity so she asked you know i noticed that you had an 80 you've had an 80 million pound investment what does that mean for your plans and how this role might evolve now they were blown away but it took her 20 seconds on google to find but the reality is everybody complains about the job market everybody complains about recruiters and recruiting most people won't do that 20 second research and have that up their sleeve question ready right now and that's the thing that changes the game for the employer like this person knows and cares so always always be over it have something up your sleeve be aware of what your flags and you know elephant in the room is and quiet it down so that it doesn't you know spend the next hour trumpeting about and wasting all your good work and always

25:53Laurie MacPherson:own that question early on should it should marjorie go for a recruiter or should she not She should, but she should know that. And this is not me slating recruiters. Recruiters are brilliant. Recruiters are not the job centre, right? They're not there to get you a job. They're there to fill the role for their client. Who pays them? And usually, and conditions are always different, they don't get much payment for you joining. They get a payment when you sustain, when you stay in role. So it's usually six, it can be three. there could be different conditions every recruiter has the right to negotiate their own terms so they don't want to put you in if they see you as a risk so it's not their job to de-risk you it's your job to convince them that you're safe and this is where people get it wrong they're like well they didn't get back to me and I always say that's because you now you're working with me we haven't done a good enough job of convincing them that you're safe their flag will be this this is the truth right like we can dress it up as all sorts of things and lots of them are brilliant and lots of them really want to help candidates and clients I get all that but their job is to make money and for the company and the truth is if they can sit if I'm a recruiter on a desk and I consistently place people who leave the client will take their work to a different firm it's as simple as that so they have to know as best as they humanly possibly can that you are safe so they always struggle with job hoppers they always struggle with gaps they always struggle with any sort of flag because they know that the client will so it's on you to make yourself as safe as humanly possible and people keep asking me you say why do you mean i'm not safe no i'm not saying you're not safe i'm saying what might what they need to know that you're safe is i've done this before and can do it again not transferable skills they don't care sorry not sorry they want to know you've done before and will do it again and they want to know that you'll stay as best as they possibly can and that if you think about it from that viewpoint you'll understand why certain people are riskier than others i've got a note down here uh two words bold and real and they're kind of like an acronym i think is the right word for it so So talk us through what are they and what do they do?

28:14So there are two bits to the business. One is for the career side and one is for the LinkedIn side, though they probably both overlap. They're just acronyms to describe the way that I work. So BOLD is the acronym for the career side. And the reason I coined this was because so many women come to me, they're applying for jobs that they don't want, right? And then they get a wee bit annoyed when they don't get them. And when we actually do the digging, I'm like, did you want to take a 10 grand pay cut tomorrow? And I'm like, no. Why are you applying for it then? Oh, well, because, you know, and I had a really good conversation with one who went on to become a long-term client and she was like, my pal, who she referred to me, who I got a job for, said to me, what would Laurie do?

28:59Would she be giving herself a 10 grand pay cut on a Friday afternoon? No, she would not. Get on the phone to her right now. Start with, so it's build as the B of bold. What do you actually want? It might not be realistic. It might not be your next step. It might be the one after. What do you actually want? Let's stop applying for things we don't want out of fear and panic. Let's start applying for things that we actually want and will get or likely will get. We don't apply. In my world, we don't send 100 applications because you're not going to get 100 jobs. And you don't want 100 jobs. Let's be really honest.

29:29We look at the ones. Do we want these? Let's apply really well. And we'll get a couple of interviews out of that five or 10. it's really sore when you don't by the way because they've hired their sister or went internal or something and i fully sit in that and say yep but we're still doing it the right way own is the o so we own our achievements which is where we put numbers and tangibles onto our cvs applications cover letters interviews so not just i handled budgets you know i always say to my clients fabulous was it a fiver well no it was 500 grand right can we write that down somewhere oh yes or yes no that makes sense so own it give me some numbers land it by tailoring your cb or application to this specific role they don't need everything you've ever done ever we're not a town crier we're a tailor and then distinguish is when we use linkedin and our network to show that we are an expert a professional in our field and we stand out from the rest like that we're not clamouring with everybody else at the entry level of the market for 437 applicants because we don't need to do that.

30:37So that's bold. And also these words both very much relate to how I am and how I live and how I interact. So real is all about on LinkedIn, you don't have to start to speak Elizabethan English. You don't have to pretend to be a corporate robot. I've never been corporate, it never will be it doesn't matter I still get clients real is repurpose when it's relevant if you have content somewhere else or one like Tim before you don't have to be a slave to constant content creation embed your authority so talk about client results things like this speaking on podcasts speaking on stages when you were asked to do things press etc adapt for the audience and by that I don't mean get your Instagram post and put a telephone voice on it for LinkedIn which we will do you know i mean who's reading what's important to them and then layer in and my three rules are business sales posts sell your offers you have to use some authority and personality which is the thing people really wrestle with on linkedin um you know i don't want to i don't want to talk about anything controversial or you know you don't have to I choose not to talk about war or politics ever.

31:54And I also, my line is, if I had a boss, could they sack me for this? So that's my line in the sand. Other people's are different, but bring yourself, and I challenge my clients hard on this, like bring yourself to LinkedIn. You have no one else. And in an age of AI slot up, how do I know that I'm hiring the right person? You have to show them you. And that includes a bit of your actual personality and character. They need to know what they're getting. No, I don't want a woman to come to me and think she's going to get, you know, a warm bath when she gets me going line by line through her CV going, how many, how much?

32:32What did you save? What did you make? What did you generate? Chase them up, follow them up. Have you spoken to them yet? You know, they need to know what they're getting. They need to know more than ever in an age of, you know, non-human content, why are they hiring you? and they can only get that when you share a bit of you.

32:51Laurie MacPherson:All right, so this person, they had a business, they were a COO, there's no COO opportunities around that or they've tried it. It's starting to get a little bit desperate. Should they just be applying for any job they see? No, definitely not. And I totally get the fear and panic and I've had clients saying, I'm like two months out of, you know, the horrors. Yeah, hold, hold, don't go for general admin when you're at your level. I'm asking you to hold, I'm telling you it's coming. you know sit in the just deep discomfort and and i do it myself you know all the time um so i'm not sitting from a place of privilege and yay do it but genuinely no because what happens is you'll be you'll be they won't understand how you fit they won't get it you won't tell them because you don't have the words and they'll look at your cb and cover it and go don't know why they're applying for this no because it's a risk again so people say to me all the time oh yeah i mean while i'm do my PhD or something other you know um you know for a better job I'll just I'm just gonna apply for a job in the supermarket so I won't bother taking up your time just now Laurie because I'm just gonna take a supermarket job and I always have to go back and say the supermarkets won't hire you which really upsets people because you're up against folks who've already got a background in retail right now you're up against really experienced that's also why 16 year olds and the 17 year olds can't get jobs because they're up against middle-aged men who've got a background in retail as managers and are having to take a step down to be an assistant so your 16 year old son can't get his entry-level job because of that so you're up against it and I would say no you won't get it I would get it because I've got a retail background and even then I've got a massive gap so probably not you know you won't get those jobs anyway so you have to keep positioning yourself at a higher level but my my recommendation again is not just to go do so cold it's to network and network consistently on LinkedIn, on, you know, in real life, speak to people, look for an opportunity and don't necessarily wait for a CEO to pop up.

34:49Go out there and speak to folk who might need a you. And this has happened to loads of clients of mine, but there's a bit of disbelief when I say it. You know, folk will say, I can't get a three day a week accountancy job with one of the big four. And I'll say, no, you can't, you're right. So don't do that. Go and speak to small business owners who can't afford you five days a week, who don't care when you work, who couldn't get a toss if you have to go and do a school run at three o 'clock as long as the work's done and go and work for one of them. But you have to put yourself in front of them and you have to offer yourself and your skills up.

35:20And you have to say, sounds like you could use someone like me on a part-time basis. How might that work? And be really bold about it. Make lots of, I always tell my client, make tons of bold asks. loads of them won't happen some of them will i'm doing a hundred reject i haven't talked about this actually i'm doing a hundred rejection challenge this year which is something that liz mosley who's a graphic designer talks about you put tons of random asks not random asks i'm not asking for you know for cover of vogue i'm asking for things i could feasibly get in a tailored fashion but lots of them won't land so when you don't get one instead of going oh i didn't get it you tick off or tick in your 100 rejections box.

36:04And then, of course, the ones you do get, well, you've got it. I did a really bold one before Christmas. I asked someone quite scary, could I speak to your membership about LinkedIn? And expected nothing. And that's the thing, you have to expect nothing because no one owes you anything, right? She came back the other day and said, yeah, I'm really interested. I'll get back to you. So yeah, don't, don't dumb it, don't. Like if you're going to dumb it down, dumb it really down. But don't try and go in as a CEO to a lower level job because they won't take it as the god's honest truth then you get the real frustration and resentment i love they won't i can't even get a job as a and it's like but you're pitching in there on and there's often discrepancy when i look at your linkedin versus your cv but you know something's not telling me the whole story and that's when i say to you right there's a disparity here of of i'm looking at that and they've gone i don't really understand what you do and lots of folk oh my work can't be summed up in a sentence it translates as i don't know what

37:05Laurie MacPherson:you do okay so in these dying minutes i have a quick question um the open to work badge on linkedin now i know what i think of it what do you think of it is a good idea or not i think i'd want people to know so they could help but i'd tell them specifically what you know what i want like what i'm looking for so that people don't again offend or upset because people want to help but they don't know how i i say yes i understand people think it might you know mean that you look desperate or lowball or all these things that i've seen that's on you to kind of manage you know thank you but no i remember an offer it's just that you know i don't you don't go out with anyone everyone that offers you either or life would have been very different um you know you don't it's an offer it's a yes or no so i i think i would use it i would want people to know and be able to help me some people are using it who don't seem to be looking for work which is a bit bizarre and I think it's because they want clients but that's a bit unclear what I would say is is it really clear what you want and what you have to offer if it's not then it's it all wasn't kind of mudderly territory so if someone's listening to this and thinks yep Laurie's the kind of person now you know she's right for me what's the next steps where do they go what do they what can they read about you yeah so I've got a website just lauriemcpherson.com I am always on LinkedIn as Laurie McPherson Canadian LinkedIn mentor and I'm also on Instagram so lastly that person there's probably a lot of people out there they are desperate for a job it feels like nothing's going their way they're depressed they're despondent they're lacking in hope is there a message you'd want to give them yeah stop for you know today tomorrow I said this to a client last Christmas before Christmas stop applying with that CV and she went sorry what she's but I need a job I said stop applying with that CV because you're not going to get the job that you want with that.