311. Are middle managers being set up to fail? With Kristien Turner

22:59I think it's going to become pretty bad in three years. And I think by 2030, it's going to be a massive crisis, you know, because a lot of those middle managers that you're getting, you're taking out are the ones with, and I don't necessarily like this terminology, but it's the one that all of our listeners are going to kind of relate to. So let's just say what it is. It's soft skills. And what do we mean by soft skills? Go in a room with 64 of your direct reports and deliver a set of bad results and bad news and try and rally the troops around those results and hold the room, 64 people in a virtual room.

23:31That takes confidence. It takes skill. It takes empathy. That's not an easy thing to do. Standing in front of a sales force, you know, I don't know, 600 of your commercial leaders in a physical room to deliver a rallying cry around, you know, your strategy for next year, that takes a real skill in terms of like public speaking, being fun, but also being, you know, on the nose with the message, but also bringing in data and knowing your stuff and knowing your product, like being eloquent, not reading off a teleprompter, not reading off a bunch of notes, like something as basic as that, we're losing that in the workforce because those middle managers, again, using my kind of age analogy of like those ones around 38 to, you know, 50 something that have spent 20 years of their corporate.

24:21Let's talk about it in terms of experience. 20 years in the workforce, we've all been exposed to that. We've all had to stand in front of a large group and deliver bad news. We've all had to stand in front of a large group and rally the troops. I've had to stand in front of 3 ,000 students and convince them to come and work for a legacy brand that's been around for 150 years when the person up next is this jazzy fintech that everybody wants to go and work for. Those could be called soft skills, but they're actually the real super skills. They're the future skills that firms are going to be lacking because we're removing those middle managers that have all those abilities.

24:57The new generation that's come into the workforce has grown up, you know, tech native, tech savvy, but actually 90 % of their work has been looking down a computer or a phone screen. And now for this new generation, you know, for the last two or three years, all of their writing skills has been through prompting Claude and ChatGPT to write their homework and their coursework for them. So like, we're at this crunch point where we don't have middle managers who have those abilities anymore. So like, I'm kind of scared because in, you know, a 200 ,000 person organization in five years time, who's going to stand in front of them to deliver the bad news or who's going to stand in front of them to rally them and motivate them.

25:39And so, you know, and we do see some of these firms out there, Leanne, like going back a little bit to focus on those soft skills. You know, when you look at all of the investments at the moment from like a learning and development training perspective, 70 % of the cash, the hard cash is going towards AI deployment, upskilling, training, just AI in general. And there's like seven attributes there, top seven of the top 10. Then number like eight, nine, 10, 11, 12 is literally public speaking, confidence, relationship building, relationship management, which for our generation, Leanne is like totally normal.

26:14Like that was just like, that was just what you had to have to develop, to survive in the world of corporate. But I think for now a large majority of the organization, that's what we're lacking. And so firms that are going to get ahead in the future are not only investing in the technology at the moment in 2026, but they really are investing in their people and in training them to be great relationship managers and public speakers. now they're the minority because back to what we've been saying earlier like many firms are kind of ignoring they've kind of got their head down at the moment we're all in this ai deployment um reskilling upskilling retraining mode as well as kind of cost cutting um with the humans but there are brands out there that are doing cool stuff and so you know i do not work with these brands i'll caveat it but like one firm i've always looked to is lego and so lego as a brand has had such a resurgence recently right it was always something that the kids played with and now we get our grandmas and our parents, adult Legos and flowers and God knows what.

27:14So on a product and sales perspective, I think they're doing better than ever before. But what have they always done differently to other brands? And it may well be because we see a lot of this very forward thinking talent strategy coming out of Scandinavia, right? It's always the Swedes, the Danish, the Norwegians that are always ahead of the curve when it comes to talent strategy. They've continued to invest in their people, in their middle managers. And so when we talk about international placements, language training, management training, having a fund that you can tap into to study something that interests you, like a learning fund, Lego always had that.

27:51They still have it today and they continue to be a genuine top employer. And so there are brands out there, like I don't want this conversation today to be all doom and gloom because I think now the candidates are becoming savvier than ever before and we can spot those golden stars like the Legos out there. And we can say, that's who we want to go and work for. We don't want to go and work for a company like this, which comes back to doing your homework, figuring out who you're going to go and work for and what that company culture is like before you sign up to go and have the second most important relationship of your life.

28:24After choosing your partner, choosing your job and your career is the second most important decision, which will basically chart out your future path of either happiness or doom and gloom. And so we want everybody to find a meaningful, happy job. And that doesn't mean to say happy job doesn't mean you go into work every day and it's roses and fantastic. And we're all going to have our challenges. We're all going to have our tough days. But we've got to be able to get to a Friday evening and go, oh, I'm really proud of what I did this week. And I feel like I'm moving forward. I feel like I'm being equipped for the future.

29:00I'm not being left around like a piece of dead wood to die at this place. Because there's 30 % of people out there, Leanne, that actually feel like they are dead wood waiting to be chopped. When I speak to people out there at the moment, there's this real concern that at any moment, the corporate axe is going to come through swinging and I'm just going to lose my job. I'm going to lose my livelihood. My family you're going to be, you know, so you've got to take the ownership yourself. And if your firm is not investing in you today, and they're making 20 % cuts tomorrow, I think you've got to be the proactive force here that say, that says two things.

29:40Let me start preparing myself for a move. And by preparing myself, I mean, get the kit bag ready, get the CV updated, get your LinkedIn updated. Cause again, I go into a lot of these coaching conversations, Leanne, and people have figured out a year ago that they want to move. And it's like, when did you last update your CV? No, 10 years ago, because I was comfy as hell where I'm at at the moment. Like, get that polished off. And it takes a little bit of momentum. Like, updating a CV should only take three or four hours. But for some people, it takes three or four months, because it's just getting that rhythm again of getting into getting your kit bag ready.

30:10Same with LinkedIn. Like, if you want to get out there, and you've got a network of three or four or 5 ,000 people on your LinkedIn, activate it. How do you activate it? Reach out direct message to some old bosses and say, let's get a coffee. Start posting a little bit more. Get your posting cadence up. And we always say, you've got to be posting once a week on LinkedIn to get trained with the algorithm and get your stuff in front of some decision makers. So get your kit bag ready and be proactive. You want to be ready to move forward before you get the news of, hey, you've got two weeks notice.

30:45this, we've made a decision on you, you're out. So like take back the ownership and do it before we get to that kind of crunch moment. You know, and the only other thing there to add is if your firm is not investing in training you and developing you for the future or even for the now, you've got to take back some time during the work week and during the weekend to say, I've got to invest in myself here because if not, I'm just going to be left behind like and I'm not going to allow that to happen. So let's not be a victim. Let's like read the room. Let's read the news articles. Let's read LinkedIn of what's happening in the job market.

31:21And as individuals, let's stay ahead of the curve. Let's be in the group that's ready to make that bold next step, not the group that's sitting around like the 20 or 30 percent of people out there that are having the doom coffees. You know, I can predict it. There's millions of people today across corporate America, across corporate UK, across the world that are going out with their three or four best work friends, 10 a.m. for their morning coffee, going, oh my God, you know, are we going to be included in that workforce reduction next month? Did you see so-and-so company just cut all of our positions?

31:54Don't be that group. Don't lean into that energy. Let's get prepared, right? That's a little bit of that energy that we've got to, the vibe we've got to carry into the job market at the moment. If not, we are going to be left behind.

32:06Leanne:it's a way of regaining control isn't it in a world that is so so chaotic and i love what you said about in terms of preparing yourself to go to market as and when you're ready or the situation comes around what can i mean i want to talk to these people let's talk to sally sally who's in her job and and she's she's always put all into being a great manager she's finding herself in this very chaotic period what can sally do to invest in herself in terms of her management capability and her future employability and do to protect her team in terms of their performance and morale. So let's really model this as if this was like Sally and we're going to like speed up like a coaching program here as if we were delivering this in like two, three minutes.

32:47Okay. So first of all, I'd say to Sally, Sally, have you gone and had the conversation with your leader about how complex, how toxic, how difficult this environment is and that I'm struggling? Have you charted out everything that you've done and delivered? Have you charted out everything that you've tried with your team and what's not working? Have you gone and been vulnerable and said, this just isn't working, right? And so I need help. I need support. And because actually a lot of the people out there at the moment in the corporate world are not manifesting that to their leaders out of fear of reprisals.

33:16But there's a way of doing that with a positive tone because Sally's, as we said, Sally's been showing up to work for the last 10, 15 years. She's been going over and above. She's always been a top performer. She's earned the right. She's not been there for a week or a month, she's earned the right to show up with her leader and say, hey, Leanne, I'm struggling. Can you help me? And we've got to see what Leanne comes back with, what her leader comes back with in terms of like guidance, support. Is Leanne going to give Sally a coach? Is Leanne going to say, hey, I'm going to move three or four of these direct reports into a different team.

33:48We're going to hire somebody else. Now, for the listeners out there, they're going, probably not going to happen. And I agree. Probably there's a stronger likelihood that Sally doesn't get any support. And so then Sally's got to say, okay, I've tried it. I've played my cards internally. I've been transparent and honest of what's happening. Now I've got to take control of this for myself. And so Sally's going to, over that next weekend, she's going to say, I'm going to meaningfully start connecting with my network again. So Sally's going to sign up to two or three networking events over the next quarter.

34:17And she's going to go into work on the Monday morning and say, hey, I'm going to Marketing Expo 101 in London next month. Hey, manager, could you pay for my license to go and do this course or go and do this professional education something? Or could you pay for my premium on LinkedIn or my LinkedIn learning license? Because I want to learn X, Y, and Z. Sally's going to take back a little bit of control. She's going to start posting and actively engaging with her network on professional social media. But I like to make that distinction between real life and virtual life. You've got to do them both because there'll be a lot of people out there that just immediately run to LinkedIn and social media because it's comfortable.

34:57We kind of do it from the sofa whilst we're watching something on Netflix over the weekend. It's like the easy low hanging fruit. Like, no, you've got to get yourself out there. And there's still some incredible in-person events and conferences and expos. And it's at those events that you meet your future employer or you meet the partner with whom you're going to launch your business or your side hustle. So you've got to get your bum out there and start in real life mixing with people again. because that's what we all did. That's what we all did in our early days of our career. You would go to those events to meet people and then the communication would continue on professional social media.

35:31You wouldn't strike up the conversation online. It would be a continuation of what you started in real life. So Sally's gonna get herself out there. She's gonna rewrite her CV. If Sally's like a senior leader, so we're talking like a senior manager, she's gonna think about her headhunter network, right? Because remember, a lot of the jobs you don't need to find, they should find you. So either an in-house recruitment team is looking on LinkedIn recruiter and they're going to come across your profile and they're only going to come across your profile if your profile on LinkedIn is complete and updated.

36:02And again, in the algorithm, you're coming out top on search because you're posting once or twice every week. But also if you're pretty senior, a headhunting firm, one of the traditional headhunters out there, and there's many around the world, are going to contact you and invite you to interview for potentially your dream job. So, you know, if you're sitting there today and you're going, what do I do? That's kind of the roadmap that I would follow. I would first have the conversation in-house to go, this is my last chance. I'm going to give my leader and my company the last chance to really show me a different face and give me tools and give me support.

36:36If that doesn't come back in a reasonable period of time, and look, companies and corporates take a while to respond. So don't expect an immediate next day response or action. But like if within a month or two, maximum three, everything's staying the same, that's when you've got to make an emotional decision, but also a very thought through decision to say, this is not working for me anymore. Like I've now got to go external and put my toolkit together to move on to something bigger and better. You know, you never want to leave the company on a Friday without the CV, without the LinkedIn, without the network.

37:11And on the Monday morning, be crying over coffee going, what the hell do I do? And unfortunately, there's a lot of people out there that either themselves choose that route because they haven't invested the time to put that kit bag together and go on that emotional journey. You know, some of us have therapists, some of us have even a friend, or we have a corporate friend, we have a mentor or a sponsor. Sometimes it's an old boss that's left the firm that's now somewhere else that you can speak to with full transparency. What do you think I should do? And you want to listen to those people and you want to pull them in.

37:43If you can't afford a coach or you can't afford a therapist, or frankly, you just don't have the time, activate some of those people that can act as a sounding board for you and guide you and keep you honest. But don't leave it until that last day where you just, you know, blow a gasket and you go, I'm leaving. I'm done. Throwing in the towel. You want to be prepared and you want to make the transition fully ready for what's next. You know, and many people out there, Leanne, are doing side hustles. Let's just like get real. Some of them are paid, some of them aren't. Some people are doing volunteering because volunteering can be an incredible way to like also expand your network, right?

38:18I've met many people that have gone on to have incredible jobs that through a volunteering initiative, through a side hustle, even a family business that they've, you know, 10, 15 years later gone back to get involved in. There's so many ways that you can just expand your network and be ready to make the evolution on your terms. Because what we're talking about here, Lian, is make the move on your terms, not on shit. I've lost my job. This was my last paycheck. Now what the hell do I do? And that's what we don't want anyone. You wouldn't want your worst enemy to be in that position on a Friday evening going, what do I do next?

38:57Everyone should be to a certain degree in this job market prepared for that curveball and have a plan B, C, D, E, I don't know, three or four alternatives charted out and ready to go.

39:13Leanne:Yeah, I want to echo as well to anyone listening the power of volunteering because not only would you know that's really great for our mental health and wellbeing because there's purpose in meaningful work, the people you meet and the opportunities you can get through that. I met Al volunteering at an organisation called Samaritans. and clearly it changed my life in terms of personal relationships. But when I went from my interview for my first kind of big job after uni, I'd done some kind of like smaller jobs because I graduated in 2008. It's not the best time. Similar to now, I guess. And I went to this first big job and I was thinking, oh, they're going to ask me about the work I did with RBS, doing competency-based interviews, and they're going to ask me about this.

39:50Leanne:And I was like, no, no, no. The entire interview around Samaritans, my ability to listen, my ability to hold space. Everything came down to that. And yeah, it can be transformative in so many ways, something like volunteering, particularly if you're having to bide your time, like you say, you're getting this toolkit together and you're expanding your network and you're doing all those things. It could be such a rich source of not only networking, but meaning. It's feel good. And you're right. It boosts your mental health and it boosts your mood at a time when you're feeling that uncertainty. You don't know when these transitions are going to happen.

40:23You feel a little bit out of control. It's something where you really can, you can feel great. I'll just share. Many people think the volunteering thing, especially in the corporate context, is either going back into a classroom with younger kids, doing some financial literacy workshops or helping them to read and write or planting some trees. You know, because for many years we went to the extreme of volunteering was about, you know, corporate sustainability, but that was also equal to climate change. And it doesn't have to be that. It actually can be really linked back to your job. And so my equivalent of Samaritans is actually helping refugees and migrants find work.

40:59So where can I help? I can help somebody show up for an interview, win the job, prepare them for the job, help them write their CV, help them have some confidence if English isn't their first language, showing up to a company and interviewing in English when their mother tongue is Spanish or Portuguese, for example. So I like to spend my time using actually something that I've kind of honed and developed on the work front, volunteering. So I think a lot of people often think that like volunteering is I've got to go and do something so different, so crazy on a Saturday, totally removed from what I do.

41:31not at all. Like there's so many examples of ways that we can give back, build a community, build a network. It's like a win-win because you're going to feel great. But also I think in this job market, as we said, it can really be a differentiator. And I love to start interviews and I'm talking about like managing directors or CFOs, you know, big salaries. I love to start an interview with, oh, I saw that you volunteer at said center, or I see that you're super passionate about helping, you know, female leaders in said industry get ahead. Like, tell me a little bit more about that. Like, what spurred that?

42:05Like, what was the inspiration behind it? Tell me a little bit more. I see that you've got this person and this person in common. Like, actually, it can be a really good tactic to strike up an authentic bond and connection, both with the hiring manager or with the recruiter or with the headhunter. So, I think we should do it for mental health and because, like, as a society, it's what we should do. But also, Leanne, like even if our listeners today are going, I haven't really volunteered and I don't really have the time. I would even say from like a from a self, from a place of self, from a place of I actually want to have a differentiator in the job market and have something that helps me stand out.

42:39Just do it selfishly. Just do it because actually by giving back some of those skills and abilities that you have, it will actually help you get ahead.

42:48Leanne:I want to go back to Sally because I'm with you. I'm like, Sally, take some agency. You've got this. you can do this. I also know, having been a very passionate middle manager myself at times, that I'm going to feel a bit guilty about that. I'm going to feel like I'm leaving my team on a sinking ship here. How do I continue to do my day job and on this journey of looking for my next move in terms of protecting the team performance and also potentially protecting what happens to them as and when I leave? Or is that not my responsibility? Am I overthinking it? Okay, so cold Christian would say not your responsibility to be the savior of those 64 people that you're managing.

43:25But the reality is you go to bed on a Monday night worrying about Mark and Sarah's and Emily's well-being and the fact that they had a cry and a breakdown in the one-to-one today and that tomorrow they've got a presentation with your boss and that boss is probably either not going to turn up or if they do turn up, they're going to be on their phone and so not paying attention. But then Mark's going to say, I spent the entire weekend building that deck and that idea and that strategy. And now I feel ignored. And so they're going to come back to Sally to say, Sally, you know. So that's the reality we live in, right?

43:54Like, I'd love to tell people you can't be the savior of those 64 individuals, but we carry that burden. So some practical things that Sally can do. I think she can't be the only one and only buffer here with those 64 individuals. So a way to share the load is actually trying to, you know, and so I've seen this happen actually really well in corporate is getting a mentor kind of program going. So actually getting your marks and your Sarah's, your superstars from your team who are struggling, get them linked up with somebody else, either within the firm or appear externally, but somebody else who can actually give them a little bit of contention, like a little bit of support in the day to day.

44:35So it doesn't all fall on the shoulders of Sally to be their savior, to be their guide. Because I understand that this middle manager has kind of become their leader, but their therapist, but their shoulder to cry on. But it's also kind of toxic, right? Because it's the same person that celebrates their birthday, that we have the Christmas party. We know the children's names. We've had a fertility issue and a battle with one of these people in the team. And so we've been on a real emotional roller coaster there because they've been trying for a baby for two or three years. Like there's a lot of baggage when you have 64 people as a middle manager that are reporting into you.

45:13Like that's a lot to control. And so trying to get some mentors or even kind of like an in-house coaching program going on to kind of help. Could be really could be really key because then you start to lighten the load a little bit. And rather than everybody and everyone coming to Sally for support, they've actually got some other people, some other go-tos to work with. So that's probably number one. Number two, stop being the only person that buffers. This happens a lot. And a couple of my clients, actually, especially in the States, this happens a lot. This kind of hierarchical approach where Sally will then stop the 64 people underneath her having to interface with her leader.

45:52And so everything goes through her. She's like this kind of bottleneck. Actually, you've got to reopen that back up. because you've got to go, hang on a minute, that person above me is earning double my wage, double my salary, double the responsibility, but I'm making their life easy because I'm the one that's actually at the moment taking on board all of the drama, all of the stress that comes with those 64 below. I'm going to open that up a little bit. And so you're not going to suddenly set up one-to-ones with 64 people, but going back to our eight by eight kind of analogy, if you've got eight reports, you're going to suddenly ask them to have a quarterly with your manager because you need to make sure that you're not the only one handling all of this craziness, right?

46:32And all of this uncertainty, you've got to get your manager above also involved in those conversations, sharing honestly, what they're seeing, the roadmap, the future of the company, their future career, their conversations, like you've got to hold them responsible. So I see a lot of middle managers kind of struggling because we've come to the conclusion that we can't allow the stress and the drama to bubble up. But the only person that that's then affecting is you. So I think you've got to unleash and loosen a little bit of that tension and that tight hold around the narrative and actually just be okay with your leader interacting with eight of your guys that are going to share, honestly, some of their struggles because it's going to be the good, the bad and the ugly that they share.

47:15And that's okay. But if you try to control it, it's going to control you and it's ultimately going to affect you and your career and your future. And so you're not there to be the workplace psychologist. Your role was never defined as you are the organizational psychologist of this firm. And I always love to, because many people watch this series, Billions, right? You're not the Wendy of billions. You're not there to be the drama filter for the organization. You've got to unbottle that and allow that to feed up to some of your senior managers. And you've got to share the load. What I'm actually seeing a lot of the middle managers do is rather than now sugarcoat with their teams so that everything's rosy and fantastic, they're actually the voice of reason.

47:56So also like sharing with your eight direct reports, not the ones beneath necessarily, but like with your top team, what's really happening, like being authentically real and true and raw, that's kind of also a coping mechanism. Because like, if we all try and live in this la la land that is kind of like Disney world, and it's all perfect and roses and flowers, it's not gonna work. It's not gonna work anymore. So again, three things there that you can do. First of all, stop trying to be the buffer to everything and allow this stuff to bubble up to your leader. Book them in monthly or quarterly touch points with your senior leader.

48:33Two, get them mentors in other parts of the organization so you're sharing that burden around career development and where they're going and just sharing that load with other leaders and other managers. So kind of like this idea of sharing is caring and not trying to kind of hold on to everything yourself. And third, I think just a little bit of real talk, like just not sugarcoating it because your team are feeling it. If you try to be that super positive energizer bunny, but your battery's not being charged up, at some point you're just going to go totally flat. You're going to flatline. So it's important to just have some real talk and just to share the load with your team as well.

49:10But again, these are kind of coping mechanisms. These are things that Sally can do while she's on the inside. But when all of this still doesn't work, you've got to have an inflection point. You've got to have a moment where with your partner at home, with your mentor, with your old boss of 15 years ago, with your therapist, with whoever it is, you've got to sit down and go, is this the place that I want to be? or would I be better suited at another firm or should I start a side hustle or should I start my own business? And you've got to plan because none of those things, you know, two business owners here, Leanne and myself, having your own business is no joke, right?

49:51Let's just get real guys. Like for anyone listening here, because there's another phenomenon happening, right? Like 15 % of corporate workers are all stating in all of these surveys that they want to open their own business. Fantastic, do it, but plan it and be real and do your financial projections and look at your savings and are you ready? Because you will work more in your startup because you're CFO, business developer, marketeer, doer, consultant, coach, enabler, tax person. You will work more doing your startup and harder and at the beginning for no pay than you will ever do in corporate life.

50:25And so we've also sugar-coded like all of these, I'm gonna become an influencer. I'm gonna do my own business. I'm gonna go and work with my best friend. I'm gonna start a company with my husband. that's great but go into it with your eyes open like i think today we're saying be prepared plan and these plans take not days not weeks they take months to develop so you know you might be listening to this podcast in the car on the commute into the office if these are things that you're going you're noodling on you've got to put pen to paper and spend a large chunk of time for the next few weekends actually charting and planning this stuff out but it's all about preparation.

51:00It's all about preparation, Leanne. And actually the people that succeed, whether it's that transition to the new job or to starting their business, have all put in the time and the work ahead of time. No one succeeds by winging it. And by, again, going back to that analogy of Friday, I've lost my job. On Monday, I'm going to either launch my business or my side hustle, or start applying like crazy for 900 new jobs with easy apply on LinkedIn. That is not the coping mechanism that's not the response that we want anybody to be taking be prepared i i would

51:33Leanne:imagine that people there's people in two camps and maybe they're holding both feelings at the same time at this point they're like yeah christian wish yeah i'm gonna do this i'm gonna plan i'm gonna do all this and there's gonna be a part of them or maybe some people listening go i have no idea where to even start that all seems very overwhelming is there one thing somebody could do today to make a positive move to protecting themselves and their career you've you've got to understand what makes you stand out. And so you've got to know what is your super skill? What am I bloody fantastic at? What have I always been told at that job or those three or four jobs that I've had within the same company that I'm great at?

52:12Am I great at making a fast impact? Am I a great public speaker? Am I the energizer bunny that goes into a room that's on a gray drizzly day and lights it up and gets everybody kind of galvanized and moving around the same like what is it that i'm great at and that's what you want to develop because that's the skill that if you're transitioning to a new job you're looking for a promotion you're doing a side hustle you're doing your own business presumably you're going to lean into what you are bloody fantastic at and so i think you start there it's not necessarily because you know there's cultural differences here, right?

52:51If I was in America, I'd make this a competition and make it about winning and I'd go, what am I better at than anybody else? You don't have to be better at it than anyone else. You just got to know that it's something that you're fantastic at, that you enjoy, that you excel at, that brings you joy, that when you're waking up on a Monday morning, you go, I can't wait to do this this week. And everybody out there, doesn't matter what job or what career you have, they have something that they love. There's one thing, and I would challenge anybody, even, you know, Debbie Downer out there that comes to me and says, hate my job, hate my existence, you know, hate my nine to five.

53:26I will always be able to rescue something about that job that they're fantastic at, that they love, that they want to lean into more and develop more. Normally they hate their job because that one thing is reduced to 10, 15 minutes or half an hour of their work week. And they want to be doing more of it. And it's often in that side hustle or in that startup where they go, I want to take what I love doing in that 30 minutes or that hour on a Monday morning and actually be doing that Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. And if it's a startup, Saturday, Sunday, like I want to make this passion and this joy moment, I want it to be prolonged.

54:01So if somebody's sitting listening to us and then they go, this is all great Christian, but I'm struggling, but I'm tired, but I've got four kids at home. I don't know where to start. My CV is not updated. I hate LinkedIn. I think it's a bunch of show-offs. I would just say one one place to start is what am I fantastic at what do I love what brings me joy and we start from that base because from that base you're going to be able to identify and chart out what those next steps again back to our whole theme of today's conversation which is taking that proactive ownership of your career you're going to be able to chart out what those next steps look like?

54:37Leanne:I'm inspired, Christian. It's so wonderful. And I think you have this beautiful balance between kind of incredibly empathetic and supportive and a bit of tough love. And I think anybody who's even thinking about a career transition needs that bit of tough love. They need to get real, right? Totally. Because I've sat on those tables. I've sat in those decision tables where there's 20 ,000, 30 ,000 people's lives, livelihoods being discussed and talked about. Like I've been in those corporate executive committees, leadership team meetings. And so I can see all of this through the lens of what the companies want and are looking for and where they're going to give and where they're going to be able to get to before it's just too much.

55:19But increasingly I'm speaking and I'm interacting with, you know, hundreds and thousands of candidates that are applying for jobs or that are being coached or that are going through leadership boot camps and courses. And I also understand their concerns and I understand where they're at. And so there has to be this meeting of the minds in the middle where we go, we're not living in Narnia land, right? The companies also have their set of structure and rules and policies. And sometimes they're a bit rigid and sometimes they're a bit slow moving. And sometimes it feels a little bit like 1996 all over again.

55:50But we also go changing demands, right? A bit like changing consumer demands, it's changing candidate demands. And we went through the whole flexibility return to work thing. We went through the gig economy thing. Now we're living through the AI job cuts and rationalization thing. And we're all kind of questioning, is this the place that I should be spending 40, 50, 60 hours of my existence? Is this future proof? Is this where I'm going to start, continue and end my career? I don't know. And so there is a crisis. There's a crisis on both sides. But as we said, I think it's important to take ownership and proactivity of your own career journey and start now.

56:31And you can start with a toolkit. But if you don't have the energy or the will or the desire to do that toolkit today, just start by identifying what brings you joy. What do you excel at? What are you fantastic at? And you will be able to identify what that next step and move looks like, whatever that will be.

56:51Leanne:what a war cry to end it on i think we're all we're all inspired to and i think even for people who are in a job that they're quite enduring or or have their own business and you can get so lost in it sometimes can't you and i'm you know i've started to at times freak out about ai and what it all means and and having those moments of reflection and writing it down or typing up whatever you prefer in terms of you say what am i good at what value can i bring to the world and what brings me joy is so important so important christian i could talk to you all day i've already taken far more of your time than i should have i know we're going to get you back on the show time and time again until then where can our listeners find out more about you and the work that you do on linkedin christian turner spelled k-r-i-s-t-i-e-n little funky spelling there of christian christian turner i'm posting all of the time or on our website um tktalentgroup.com So come and join the conversation.

57:46We're posting lots of articles, lots of thought leadership, and frankly, lots of practical advice on how to build that toolkit and how to be ready for what's next. That was Christian Turner. And if you took nothing else from today, take this. Christian's advice is actually really simple. If you're a middle manager who feels like you're drowning right now, here are three things to do this week.

58:06Leanne:Number one, have the honest conversation with your leader. Tell them you're struggling. Show them what's not working. You've earned the right to ask for help, so ask for it. Give your company one last chance to show up for you before you make any decisions. Number two, stop trying to be everyone's everything. You are not the therapist, the buffer, the saviour and the manager all rolled into one. Get mentors involved. Open up access to your senior leadership. Share the load because if you keep absorbing all of it, the only person it's going to destroy is you. And three, build your kit bag now, not when you get the call.

58:44Leanne:Update the CV, dust off the LinkedIn, get yourself to an in-person event because the people who land on their feet are the ones who are already ready. And if you manage middle managers, this episode is just as much for you. Your Sally, whoever she is on your team, is probably going to bed on Monday night worrying about people she can't help. She needs a coach or a mentor program or just someone above her who's willing to actually show up to her quarterly. It doesn't have to be expensive. It just has to be real. Christian is on LinkedIn. Search for Christian Turner. Spelled K-R-I-S-T-I-E-N. and you can find his team at tktalentgroup.com.

59:25All the links are, of course, in the show notes.

59:27Leanne:This is Truth, Eyes and Work. We will see you next week.