316. Botsitting, Microsoft's Xbox Layoffs and Finance Burnout. PLUS! Does Growth Mindset Really Work? With Rob Briner

20:26Leanne:Do you remember a few weeks ago when we talked about Microsoft introducing this voluntary retirement thing and our sceptical little minds had this conversation about how maybe it was a precursor to redundancies because they're kind of hoping people will select themselves out. I kind of feel that that came true. Yeah, no, I do. I do. And also, we found out that the criteria for it skewed towards people more my age than... Yeah, 70 plus, wasn't it, in terms of experience, 10 year age. So yeah, the article goes on, Sharma believes that rising hardware costs, as you alluded to, are too many studios underinvestment in flagship games and relying too heavily on external vendors all contributed to where Xbox is today.

21:09Leanne:And she summed it up by saying a healthy Xbox could weather the shock of the hardware crisis with an unhealthy Xbox, it becomes really challenging. I mean, apparently they've had a 7 % decline in revenue and they've invested, I think,$20 billion and their revenue has dropped by$500 million. Oof. The year business hasn't been going well. My thought with this, first of all, it was kind of linking it to that kind of retirement thing, which we felt was a bit dodgy, a bit kind of ageism in plain sight. But also just the language around this. First of all, Fortune haven't mentioned Microsoft in the headline of this article.

21:48Leanne:They're saying Xbox. So for some people, they might not associate Xbox with Microsoft, whereas we've heard lots from Microsoft over the past few years in terms of the continued layoffs they make. But also some of the language in terms of we simply spread ourselves too thin. It's like, well, those people then have probably been working their little booties off for the past however long to try and make all these things work without you know with a lack of resources and because it hasn't because you've made decisions at a strategic level that were just too too much of a stretch they're now paying the price and in terms of the big tech layoffs it might not sound very much 1300 people but that's a lot of people that's a lot a lot of people and when it's 20 percent of the workforce that's going to have a significant impact on the people that that remain i just it just feels like we've all become a little bit too comfortable talking about restructuring and the mass layoffs that are just part of that and not really thinking enough about the human impact yeah yeah yeah i will leave a link to that in the show notes but let us let us know what you think on that one it feels a bit icky to me that just how it's presented by Fortune as well.

23:05Leanne:But of course, we haven't heard anything in terms of how these layoffs are going to be made, what wraparound support and care is going to be given, other opportunities potentially across Microsoft that will be offered. So we will reserve too much judgment, but I will leave a link in the show notes. Have a read. Let me know what you think. Yeah, absolutely. Right, it's going to go for a quick break and then when we come back, we have got that truth or lie segment that everybody loves and a special guest. We'll see you in a second. School might soon be out for summer, but Marketing School is here to stay and it is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.

23:37Genuine marketing legends Neil Patel and Eric Su bring you daily actionable digital marketing lessons learned from years in the trenches with nearly 100 million downloads, probably a million of those are from me actually, and over 2 ,500 episodes, Marketing School delivers bite-sized marketing wisdom you can implement immediately. Whether you've got a new website, your established business, you're going to learn the latest in SEO, content marketing, social media, email marketing, conversion optimization, and genuine online marketing strategies that work today.

24:05Leanne:So if you want real-world marketing tactics from practitioners who are still in the arena building and scaling businesses, this show is perfect for you. And if you're considering using AI, which I think you should, then the latest episode looks into why AI often costs companies more than the employees it replaced. It's, yeah, definitely go and check that one out. Listen to Marketing School wherever you get your podcasts.

24:31Welcome back to Truth or Lie. It's that time of the week where we take a popular workplace idea and ask if the research actually backs it up. This week, we have a special guest joining us, Rob Brena. So Rob is Leanne's special LinkedIn friend. You've been chatting on LinkedIn. He's also a professor of organizational psychology at Queen Mary University of London and research director at Corporate Research Forum. He's got more jobs than we've got. For almost three decades, Rob has been promoting evidence-based practice in management, HRM, and work psychology. No wonder Leanne likes him. not least through his LinkedIn series called Is That Really A Thing?

25:06Very good, I like this. He explores various popular ideas about behaviour at work such as learning styles, psychological safety and the happy productive worker.

25:13Leanne:Yeah, so you can see why he is absolutely perfect for truth or lie. Again, as I said to Rob, I'm not sure which came first. We'll just agree it's a brilliant idea and we both had it around the same time. I sat down with Rob last week and asked him about growth mindset. So that's the belief that your abilities and talents can be improved. rather than being fixed. And it is everywhere. And I think everyone has heard of growth mindset. It's in leadership training, it's on social media, it's in schools, it's in performance reviews. It's probably on a motivational tea towel at this point now. But does believing in growth mindset actually change how well people perform?

25:49Leanne:Well, that is what we are digging into today. Rob, over to you. So growth mindset is a lovely idea. It's all warm and fuzzy and nice and lovely and it's to be contrasted with a fixed mindset so the idea of a growth mindset is that if people have certain beliefs or indeed obsessive beliefs they are more likely to believe that for example you can improve your intelligence you can change the way you are as a person you can develop and be different in various ways and a fixed mindset is the idea that you are less likely to be able to do that. Now, from the get-go, I'd say, you know, this is about truth and lies.

26:27And a part of the truth and lies, as you say, is, of course, what is the claim that's being made? But also, crucially, how are you defining the thing you're talking about? So I find the definition of this, like a lot of other psychological constructs you've mentioned, such as learning styles, such as what organisational culture means, this first kind of stumbling block is like, what on earth does this mean? so I think we have this a bit with growth mindset it's very appealing it's intuitive and of course as you know if something's intuitive it's also very dangerous because it means you've understood it in in two seconds unconsciously which probably means there's a whole set of biases kicking in but the basic idea that some people believe they can grow and change and some people don't some people in the middle it's kind of appealing and that's sort of what it is I think linked to that is also how like with lots of psychological constructs you have to measure them as well and of course there's quite a few measures of growth mindset and this is one for example one of the items is you can learn new things but you can't really change how intelligent you are the idea being that if you tend to agree with that then you have more of a fixed mindset and again it's kind of curious because even that in that statement itself you can learn new things but you can't really change well isn't it enough to think you can learn new things what's intelligence kind of got to do with it so both from the starting point of what do we mean by growth mindset and fixed mindset we already run into the problem of how do you measure it and assess it and i've given you an example of one item from a common new scale which i think is quite sort of confused not least because you know abilities like intelligence are things that just actually are technically harder to change very much skills absolutely you can learn um so that's kind of what it is and kind of how you measure it.

28:17Leanne:So there already seems a bit of confusion there because I'm imagining having questions like well can I improve my intelligence or is that fairly fixed and how can then I learn new skills that are not linked to intelligence already feels like we're getting a bit muddy. I think it is getting muddy because it seems quite reasonable to believe for example that you can't do much to increase your intelligence but at the same time you might believe you can learn lots of new things and it seems to me given it's supposed to about your development and advancement and being able to learn these things actually that belief that self-efficacy you can you can learn new things might be more important than how much you believe intelligence is fixed or not so it seems like slightly different things so if listeners are confused yes you should be confused it is confusing don't worry about it but it is it is nonetheless an important and popular concept that has really spread around lots of places in the world in the educational context so those of you listening who have kids in school or had kids in school you may be aware that actually this is taught to kids in school this is serious shit this is taken incredibly seriously teachers are told about it children are told about it and they're going to spread I guess from there a bit into the workplace as well where does it come from where what is it a person is it a movement is it a psychological yeah i mean the person that first kind of encapsulated it in terms of growth mindset fixed mindset was carol dweck but of course ideas around what people believe things like self-efficacy whether they can learn or not whether they've been around forever but she really encapsulated and tried to develop various measures of it and got started with a lot of the kind of most significant early studies of growth mindset and typically they address sort of well you hinted at one already they address a couple of questions because one is is there a link between growth mindset i just hate the word mindset but let's say growth mindset how much people believe you can change is there a link between that and how much people actually achieve and how much they do so that's the first question you need to kind of establish the second kind of claim linked to that i suppose is that if that is true then the second question is can you intervene to improve people's growth mindset can you give them help them change their beliefs so they're more willing to believe for example like that item i can improve my intelligence so they're the two key things is it something that's linked anyway to achievements and outcomes and if it is or even if it isn't can you intervene and in turn does intervention increase your level of growth mindset and does that in turn affect your achievement So it's a classic kind of chain of things.

31:01It might be the same. Same might be true, something like emotional intelligence. Is, again, whatever the hell that means. Is there a link between people's levels of emotional intelligence and how successful they are, say, as a manager or whatever it is? There might be a link, there might not be. And then secondly, can you intervene to increase emotional intelligence, which has practical effects in how good people are in terms of, say, being a line manager? So it's those two kind of classic questions.

31:26Leanne:So what do we know from the evidence to answer that, the first question, whether a growth mindset is related to performance? So my understanding has been so many studies, mostly done in a school context, an educational context with students, universities. My understanding of looking at metronases is that broadly speaking, the evidence is quite mixed and it's quite low quality. so for example to really understand the effects of growth mindset on say attainment you'd have to not you'd have to measure it at a certain point in time and measure it measure attainment at this point measure it in another point to see if growth mindset was the same or not and see if attainment had increased depending on your baseline level of attainment so based on the attainment and baseline level of growth mindset so it's a little bit hard to test but the studies that have been done apart from being you know not great quality tend to show quite mixed effects so some studies show bits of effect none of it's very large some studies show no effect a few studies show a sort of negative effect so i would say generally what that says to me is there isn't much doing there isn't much going on there so of all the things in the world that might predict and determine effect your attainment your ability to yeah to attain to have positive outcomes growth mindset just on its own doesn't seem to sort of do very much so the second question is can you intervene to increase it and if you do does it increase and does that increase lead to increases in attainment that is even harder to study you need kind of experiments you need really longitudinal stuff you need to find interventions that might work and the problem is if growth mindset isn't linked that strongly to attainment anyway why would increasing it actually improve attainment so you've also also got kind of both a logical and a kind of empirical evidence problem to begin with doesn't seem to be linked but again the studies that have been done a lot of them seem to be quite low quality in a recent 2025 meta-analysis we can share the links afterwards it suggested that the the studies where there were kind of vested interests as in the people conducting research were big believers in growth mindset they tended to find more positive results in terms of intervening to actually increase both mindset they also in this meta-renaissance suggested that almost all the studies they looked at were quite low quality so it's very hard to draw conclusions from it but in the relatively few that did they found kind of some improved both mindset a little bit some didn't and yeah and most my memories had no effect at all so maybe has a slight effect and in terms of that other question does it then lead to subsequent increases in attainment again it wasn't clear particularly that it did so you can you can intervene you maybe can change it a little bit but even if you do change it a little bit it doesn't seem to have these practically important effects on outcomes i feel as well are there underlying things here growth mindset doesn't really sound like it's a thing but there might be something else happening i think the problem is if you take something it's like talking about performance at work or attainment at work a lot of things we think are great and positive and lovely the problem is they're typically caused by quite a large number of things or or at least quite you know at least like whatever five six seven ten things what we tend to do both as psychologists in terms of researchers and practitioners tend to find look for the thing that's most important like oh is it gross mindset or is it self-efficacy or is it something else from the positive psychology bible is there something else in there that might be we can look at it now the chances are it just isn't one thing that's particularly important chances are it's a combination and the chances are those things come together in combination in different contexts and different settings and depend on a whole other moderating factors so although and again in my you know my linkedin post around is this even really a thing the conclusion of it always is rather than look to something like growth mindset as an answer and try and use that as a solution to your problem work out what the issue is first so what are you actually trying to do so let's go back to say school or university or the workplace if you're trying to help children's or employees attainment and performance there's a whole load of things that are going to be hugely more important before you get to variables and phenomena like growth mindset do do people have the conditions and the environment in which they can perform well are they given them resources do they understand what they're required to do are they given the support to do it are they given specific training and skills to help them do those things all those things are going to are going to predict a huge amount of the outcomes we're talking about sure if you've got all those completely right whatever that means maybe growth mindset might like add a little tiny really really bit on top of that but it seems pretty unlikely to me possibly in some circumstances but it's almost over looking around for these kind of quite exciting exotic thing whatever psychological safety or growth mindset or you know learning so we're looking for something that we think will help really help us fix this problem without saying what the problem is and generally speaking there are some quite fundamental things that you know uh yeah as as a work psychologist that we know are quite important so even if these other things matter they probably don't matter very much on the whole i'm i'm gonna have to bring us back to growth mindset please listening will be kind of thinking is it is it a thing is it a thing well it's a thing in the sense you people think you can measure it i've already described some of the problems with the measures and there are you know there is other views and we can share some links about how you measure this thing i think is it a thing in that it's easy to define if indeed it isn't it i'd say not so much you know i would guess give it 15 years i don't think anyone would be talking about it anymore i may be wrong maybe slightly wrong but that's true of lots of psychological constructs they come and they go they come and they go so it there might be something in it uh but i don't think going back to those claims that it's really important for attainment and you can intervene to increase it and if you do that will increase people's attainment i don't think the current evidence really supports that and even if you've got much better studies and indeed some of the methodologies say the better studies show even smaller effects so probably yeah it's a thing in that people like it it makes sense it may be not a thing logically or scientifically or psychologically i'd say so it's a thing in some senses for sure and just to say In terms of the perhaps what it might be felt to be slightly negative tone about, in this case, growth mindset.

38:31The other side of it is that, let's go back to the kids thing. To me, if it is the case that my understanding of the evidence is broadly correct, that a growth mindset isn't particularly important for attainment. And secondly, it's hard to intervene to change it much and changing it doesn't. just think as the possibly hundreds of thousands of millions of school children who have been put through this process and this has been used to try and help them attain more and it almost certainly almost certainly has not done that on the one hand yeah don't rain on my growth mindset parade because i love it fine on the other hand what about the harm this is doing so I think a lot of these beliefs a lot of these things as you put it that people might want to latch on to yes it is sometimes the case they're not particularly well supported by everyone and they're probably not very useful at the same time what about all the waste what about all the people we could be helping what about all the things the opportunity cost of the good things we could be doing while we're playing about with these things we think are cool you know I think that's a really important part of this as well so it's not negative i would say what drives me around this actually really wanting to help and a lot of these things not all of them aren't really very useful so to me it's a question of saying can we clear the decks of all these distracting probably faddy you know not very important ideas and focus on what really matters and to me that's really what what motivates me that was the awesome rob breena go and follow him immediately on linkedin He is direct, he's sassy and of course evidence-based so I know you're going to love him.

40:15And of course we'll leave all the links for you to find out more about Rob and his work in the show notes. Just if you are going LinkedIn, it's pronounced Brina but spelled B-R-I-N-E-R.

40:24Leanne:Okay Al, I think it's now time for your favourite time of the week. It is, it's time for the World Famous Weekly Web. Please tell me where I put your questions to Leanne. Yes, this is where we take some questions and we put them to Leanne and she answers them effortlessly apart from I think there's one time in what, we've probably done about 700 questions now, There was one time, I think, where you were like, oh, I don't know the answer to this. Which one was that? I don't know. I did struggle with a what should I buy my CEO of Christmas. I don't know. I don't know. Not a personal shopper, friend.

40:53It was quite a strange one, but I was kind of interested to throw in there because you might have some ideas. Okay, so question number one, and this email is titled, where has all the energy gone? So this person writes, my team isn't unhappy, nobody's leaving and the work still gets done, but something's changed. A couple of years ago, people bounced ideas around they helped each other out they seemed excited about what we were building now everyone just does their job and heads home it feels like we've lost something i can't quite put my finger on what is this just what work looks like now should i be doing

41:23Leanne:something different over to you laylee when we see a change in individual behavior we tend to question what's wrong with the individual when really we should probably be thinking about the environment and what's changed in that there's a few little clues in this al isn't there um you know we we used to bounce ideas around helped each other out a lot they were excited about what we were building that sounds to me like a bit of a startup culture or a new product or a new innovation or a time of of creativity and where that teamwork and collaboration is is needed it could be that that time is now passed and you're in a much more stable stage of your business where it is a bit more business as usual and there isn't as much ideation innovation happening just because of what is happening operationally it could be that your people are exhausted because they've gone through this period of of rapid growth it could be that people have become disillusioned because what you're growing is turned into something else so maybe that wasn't promised in the way that it it was maybe some of the values have kind of ebbed away there could be a whole host of reasons and I think the only thing you can do is ask them yeah ask them what is happening but i i would suspect it's going to come down to a few a few areas i would be surprised if they're not having an issue with something around their reason for being there their meaningful work that they're not anymore seeing where the organization is going or heading and they're excited about it that could be because you've made it and you've not decided where you're going to next or it could be that you know but you've not communicated that.

43:03Leanne:It could also be that if you have gone through a period of growth that roles have changed and people are no longer stretched they're no longer excited it is just business as usual and because they've gone through a really busy time they're happy to kind of take a load off for a bit and turn up on time and do their job and go home. There is nothing wrong with that by the way. The final thing could be something around around resources so what I mean by resources is if you assuming that you've grown or you've grown customers and you've got new products or it's now in place are people stretched are people thin are people doing lots of things that they didn't do previously and are they getting to the point where that is really starting to take a toll on their energy levels and their health and their mental health and their ability to to engage in discretionary effort to go the extra mile for you if they don't have the energy because they don't have the resources to do that whether in terms of people systems or time or indeed training then people will start to set their own boundaries so that could be what's going on as well so i think really you're going to have to ask them you can do that either by working with a workplace psychologist such as myself or you just have one-to-ones with some people who have been in the business for a while who have been through this this period of building whatever that was and ask them what what's what's occurring how they're thinking how they're feeling this is what you've observed what can you be doing better to bring that energy back and get an idea um so to use your words you can put your finger on it yeah yeah absolutely i think there's one thing which and there's the nuance of english language it's funny when we're learning a different language we learn how we learn how the nuance of english language but this reads, and they seemed excited about what we were building.

44:49Now, that could be construed as we're no longer building that, we're maintaining. And as Leanne said many, many times, often the team you have in your startup that help you build are not going to be the same team that help you maintain. Because oftentimes it's different sort of outlooks on work. Those people are excited about creating something out of nothing. And then those people who just maintaining it often aren't the same people. So if you're in a startup, then quite often sort of year two, three or four is the time when you're starting to lose some of your early people and we're having to let them go because it's no longer the environment that they joined.

45:24It's now a proper grown up teenage sort of or early 20s company.

45:30Leanne:Very good. Very good. Okay. So thank you for that, Leanne. Okay, on to question number two. And it's about this person who's got a best employee, but they don't want a promotion so this person says um my one of my best employees has turned down a promotion for the second time they are brilliant at what they do but they have no interest in managing people part of me thinks they're lacking ambition the other part wonders whether i've got it wrong and not everybody wants to climb the ladder they're asking leanne should i keep encouraging them to move up and take this take this promotion or should i just leave them be and let them go about their life?

46:02I think the answer could be both and neither.

46:06Leanne:The assumption that you're making is that a great individual contributor, a technical employee who is brilliant at their job is going to be great managing the people that do said job. And that's not the case. Managing people takes a very different skill set, a very different approach. And this person either knows that they have no are interested in managing people and want to remain an amazing individual contributor. They aren't convinced they've got the skills or would need help to develop the skills to be able to step into that or they're just more than happy doing what they're doing. So I think the first question is understanding why they don't want that promotion rather than just assume that they're not ambitious and don't want to progress in whatever that looks like.

46:51Leanne:You can progress at the same level but just expand your your your knowledge and your experience or you can progress in IC roles that is possible so I think the first thing is to understand why they don't want this promotion and if it is a lack of confidence around managing people or an awareness that they that's a different skill set invest in their development first give them some training around around what it is to to manage people or to coach people see if they love it see if they like it see if it could then open it up as a possibility for them I think more than likely this will come from the view that managing people ain't worth it because we're seeing so much in the news and on socials we're seeing layoffs and it's that middle managers that tend to get laid off we're seeing what a 20 % increase in salary for probably an 80 % increase in work and responsibility so that might not be worth it um and we're also just seeing where there's a lot of bad bad things being said about managers very few people like their managers because we don't train our managers to be effective they maybe don't want to be that person that people people vilify and and and yeah don't don't want to be that that member of the team so there could be a whole host of reasons but i would be very careful in thinking they lack ambition because one they probably don't they're just lacking your ambition for them and two ambition is is subjective what some you know ambitious looks like to you is very different to what success looks like to to somebody else and if they're just brilliant at what they do then how wonderful for you to have that person in your business doing brilliant things yeah absolutely and I think also look if you've got other managers in the business go and have a look and see what what's going on there because it could be that if you have set up the other managers to fail a little bit inadvertently, if you've set them up, then it could be they're looking at other managers and going, well, I don't want to have a life like that.

48:49So what is your management template? What do other managers look like? Are they happy? Are they stressed? Are they overworked? And it does sound like you need, it sounds like I'm shilling around product here, but it does sound like you need some kind of management training somewhere in your organization. Because as Leanne says, like, was it 70 % of managers had never been

49:07Leanne:trained or something is it yeah i think it goes as high as like 90 percent for first-time managers or something like that i was talking to kate donovan about this on her podcast fried the burnout podcast and we were kind of talking about how what an amazing amazing approach it would be if organizations started training people in coaching skills or pro-social skills like listening and empathy and critical thinking from day one regardless of whether they thought they could be a people manager or that somebody decided they want to be a people manager yet just develop their skills so when you get to a situation like this you're going to probably have the employee go no it's not for me i know we've been kind of doing all that but i find it really hard i don't have an interest technical is is kind of my area or they're going to go yeah i feel confident i feel ready let's do it um so yeah what a world if we just train managers everybody to be managers from day one if you are interested in um in our own program cornerstone and uh just let us know just get in touch uh we're launching that in later on this year okay so last question here our exit interviews a waste of time this person says every time someone leaves we do an exit interview every time they tell us everything was great and then a few weeks later i hear they've actually been unhappy for months so our exit interview is just box ticking exercises leaf is there yeah is there a better way then yes there is yes there's lots of different things i still think exit interviews serve a purpose i i think it's difficult when the manager leaves the exit interview because that's just an awkward situation if you have been unhappy and it's you're leaving because of the person you're currently sat in front of um so i do do exit interviews for some clients to try and understand what's going on and then feed it back as part of broader employee insights that we give rather than necessarily identifying the specific beef i think the problem is from the individual's perspective at this point if they've been unhappy in their job for a long time the relief they're feeling at this moment to be leaving your organization they probably are genuinely saying you know everything's been fine it's been fine because they're they kind of psychologically already they're already out the building they've already moved on so to reflect back on that isn't something that's interesting to them or appealing to them at that point so they're going to stay in and very much in their present and focused on their their future yes after a few a few months they might be more more in a position to reflect back on that time and go yeah i was really unhappy and these are the reasons why because again they've got they've almost got that safety to do it there's not going to be psychological safety isn't it there's not going to be any negative consequences of of giving negative feedback at a point where it could still potentially have an impact you don't know what happens if if there's a manager you are you are an awful person and then phone ahead of the employee they've gone to and gone actually i need to i need to change their reference or something has come up as we've been digging through our records or there's still potential impact isn't there so i think people are always very very careful about what they say in exit interviews i think we actually covered a story didn't we of someone who does exit interviews with their staff six months after and takes them for lunch yeah and gets more kind of genuine feedback then my main thing though would be that as a business owner or leader you should never be that surprised when somebody leaves your organization you should see it coming you should understand why either the job can't meet their needs and ambitions or the organization can't meet their needs or ambitions it should rarely really rarely come as a shock when somebody hangs in their their notice so if that if that is the case and you're doing your job properly you're having these regular check-ins you're not going to need next interview you're going to find well why they're leaving and you're going to be totally understanding of of that reason so I think it's more a case of working on these regular check-ins as a manager having these conversations understanding their personal goals their professional goals, their life goals, understanding how this job fits into that.

53:00Leanne:Is it a timeline? Can your organization provide that progression route for them? Is their future ambitions in a completely different industry? Yeah, I think exit interviews are ticking a box. They can help you tick an important box in certain ways. But really, if you're having these conversations along the way, you shouldn't really need an exit interview in the first place. Yeah, good point. Good point. And if you do want to do an exit interview, then yes, six months later is a really, really smart idea. The other good thing about doing it six months later is that this person will potentially have had six months in a different organization.

53:33And we'll probably go, actually, do you know what? It wasn't quite as bad as I thought because we still do the same things here in the new place. So that could be quite interesting. And also, wouldn't it be nice just to catch up with someone after six months, assuming you've had a good relationship, catch up with them. And then you can go, look, you know, if you ever want to jump back and just let us know. Because that's one of the biggest things I think when people leave, they go, well, obviously they're going to be really angry with me and I've never got a chance to go back there. If you've been a great employee or you've had a really good relationship with your manager, that could be the perfect way to say, no, look, it is open.

54:07It is open. Absolutely. Lovely. If you have your own question to put to Leanne, then check the show notes. You can get in touch with us there or just email hello at Truth, Lies & Work. This Thursday, we're joined by an expert in happiness, a guy called Richard Clarke. But he's not just some fellow who's decided to become a consultant. Sorry, looking at some of you people on LinkedIn. He's actually walked the walk when he built his company and he ended up with some of the happiest employees on the earth. So Richard's going to talk us through the secret of being happy at work and how he got it wrong in his company.

54:35And also, because he sold his company, whether exiting a company for a very nice payday makes you happy or not. That is coming up this Thursday.

54:43Leanne:Yeah, a really good one. In the meantime, come along to follow us on LinkedIn. That's where the conversation continues. Follow us on Instagram and TikTok as well. we've been posting more clips recently. Have we? Yeah, we have. Well, I haven't. Claude has. And it seems to be going quite well. So, yeah. All of that. Click, subscribe, follow. We'll be you. If you've got a word of the week, then email Leanne or find Leanne on LinkedIn. And if you want to do a truth or lie, if you're an expert on something, you want to do a truth or lie, yeah, maybe. We might think about it. We very much think about it.

55:13See you next week. Bye. Bye-bye.

55:20Thank you.