327. Top 5 Tips to Actually Switch Off This Summer, with Dr Rachel Morris

22:37Dr Rachel Morris:You can care deeply about it. If you can't control it, you can't do anything about it. And when we talk to doctors about this, they're like, yeah, but yeah, but what if someone's told you you're accountable? Even if they have, if you can't control it, what can you do? But interestingly, in the serenity prayer, the word serenity, I was thinking, well, what does serenity mean? Grant me the serenity to accept the things I can't control. Well, in that context, apparently it means unclouded. So I love thinking about unclouded acceptance. So what I've done is I've taken this thing that's stressing me out like if the children have have a good time on holiday if they're enjoying it you know if you've ever been on holiday with teenagers you'll know you'll know what I mean like sometimes you could do everything and they won't be won't be enjoying it but you say right I've looked at that I've looked at every aspect of it and thought what can I control okay I can ask them what they want to do I can be pleasant I can give them a bit of spending money I can do this that and the other but at the end of the day I can't control if they're enjoying themselves or not so unclouded acceptance means I've looked at everything there and I've done what I can and I've left what I can't and you can apply that to work as well you know in this situation I've looked at everything that I can do about this situation but I can't control that so I'm just going to leave it doesn't mean I don't care about it I'm going to care deeply but I can't carry it it reminds me that Rachel of a kind of a mantra or an affirmation that a coach shared me once not my circus not my monkeys and i definitely go to that when when i find myself caring about things i can't control um so yeah i love that second tip we will be back with rachel and her three final tips in just a moment after this very very quick break did you know that the uk's number one management podcast that's us by the way and the uk's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network we actually have a lot in common we both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.

24:33And we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode. And two out of three of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not going to say wit. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you, we need to do this in threes. The Hobspot Podcast Network. The audio destination. Or business professional. Seamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business and brands as well.

25:17It is. It's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better? It can. And are we all just status-seeking monkeys? I am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcast. But come back. Yeah, come back. Definitely come back, because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in.

25:50Welcome back, welcome back. We're chatting with Dr. Rachel Morris about her top five tips to actually switch off this summer. Where were we, Leigh? well we had just finished tip number two which was which is recognizing what's not in our in our control so let's move on to tip number three Rachel well this is very closely related

26:08Dr Rachel Morris:to the previous one actually so my tip number three is stop rescuing other people and this is about this is really for people that are over responsible that feel responsible for everybody and everything, probably both inside work and outside work. And so if you think back to the zone of power I was talking about to work out what's in your control and what's not in your control, once you sort of ditch the stuff that you can't control, let's look at stuff that is in our control. And this is where leaders and, you know, people with a lot of responsibility really come a cropper because there is a lot we could do.

26:44Dr Rachel Morris:There's a lot we could do for other people. And I don't know about you, but I've been brought up to be a good person, to help people. Yeah, as a GP, literally, if you cut me in half like a stick of rock, it'd be like helping would be through the middle of me. And I want to fix things for people. I want to give advice. I want to do stuff for people. But being in a rescuer role like that with your teams does not work. And so often, when the workload is too much, when other people are struggling, when there's loads and loads of things to do, people want us to take the work off them. They want us to help them out.

27:23Dr Rachel Morris:They want us to solve it for them and fix it for them. And very quickly, we can end up in what's called the drama triangle. And I'm sure you've talked about drama triangle. I heard about it before. A really helpful model from the 1960s, Stephen Cartman devised it and it talks about three different roles we can play. One is a rescuer, one is a victim and one is a persecutor. And you have to have all three to actually exist in the drama. So the victim is totally helpless, the persecutor is being the evil one and the rescuer is there swooping in like a knight in shining armour. Now, often when we're into leadership roles, when we own businesses, when we're working with vulnerable people, we are in the rescuer role.

28:06We feel that we are duty bound to rescue them if they want us to, or even sometimes if they don't

28:12Dr Rachel Morris:want us to. And the problem with this is that we've already got enough work to do ourselves without doing everybody else's workload. And you can see how that happens in the summer where people go, well, I've got to get away. Will you just do this for me? Will you do this? Will you do the handover for me? Will you do this? And before you know it, you'll be agreeing and doing everything for everybody else and it's not helpful it's not helpful for you it's not helpful for the organization and actually it's profoundly disempowering for other people it keeps them stuck in this sort of victim mentality of oh I don't I can't do anything for myself and I was smiling when you were talking about the not my circus not my monkeys thing because there was a really good book I think it was written in the 1990s called the one minute manager and the naughty monkeys have you had yeah great book and it's a really great example of of the difference between being a rescuer and actually um letting other people take responsibility for themselves it basically tells you that say if you're a manager you're someone comes to see you and they've got all these naughty monkeys jumping around they don't want to do with them so they say oh can you help me with the monkeys and you say oh all right and you take the monkeys off them and they go brilliant thank you and then they run out and you're left with all their naughty monkeys.

29:24Dr Rachel Morris:And I think in the summer, we're often left with everybody else's naughty monkeys at home and at work. Whereas if we want to step out of the drama triangle, and one of the ways to do this is take more of a coaching approach, which I think is really the only way to lead sustainably is to say, okay, let's look at these naughty monkeys together. And I can ask you questions, I can work out what you would like to do about it. And I can, you know, support you in that. but let's give you the naughty monkeys back you can leave with them because you are empowered you know what to do you can deal with that yourself well it's just human nature to want to help isn't it if someone says can you help me then it's most people will be like yeah sure what what can I help you with it's very very very difficult so Lee do we need one to do move on to tip four or any questions about tip three I have a small question about tip three in that I think there can be a danger when we're in that rush like finishing things up at work we're in just like hyper problem solving mode and everything starts to look like a problem that needs to be solved and then we find ourselves at home trying to trying again solve everybody's problems and as you say in a way you know rescuing them and one thing that that Al and I often talk about with each other is do you want to be heard helped or hugged and it's like I'm still going to help you in whatever way you need but that might just be that that you're on a rant and you just need me to hear you out or it might be that you've had a crappy day and you just need a hug and I do you ever see this in in kind of high performers or the people that you support where they will kind of keep work mode on during those first few days of holiday to a point where it can start to kind of irritate other people I'm sure I'm sure they can yeah I mean I find myself giving advice to my friends the whole time and advice to my family.

31:16Dr Rachel Morris:So this works just as well outside the workplace as it does inside the workplace. And in fact, I would even use that heard, helped or hugged as a leader. I mean, you might not want to hug your employees. Don't try this, you know. But just being able to say what you will, you know, if someone comes to you with an issue, you're at work, just saying, what do you want from me right now? Do you want me to listen? do you want me to give advice or do you want just me to be a sounding board and actually even if someone says oh I do want your advice even if you say to them well okay just tell me the issue what's the real issue here and what have you already thought of what could you do nine times out of ten they'll have the answer and what that does it stops you having to solve it yourself and taking on the problem and also we're very arrogant if we think we're the ones that have the answer to that problem because a lot of time we don't have the context we don't know what they're dealing with particularly if it's sort of like interpersonal issues at work or something like that they're the only ones that could find the answer anyway but for people who are you know very responsible high achievers they sometimes feel guilty for not rescuing because they think that's who they should be like I'm the sort of person that always helps always rescues my team for me it's a mindset shifts of thinking actually you are profoundly disempowering them and actually there's a great book called the 15 commitments of conscious leadership which i absolutely love and they say that the rescuer role is actually the most toxic role you can be in because it keeps your team members stuck it's profoundly disempowering and it encourages behaviors that lead to burnout in the team my dad was a big fan of tom talking of 90s books my dad was a big big fan of tom peters back in the day uh possibly a little before both your time i studied tom peters right okay and and he was like you know the guy back in the day um and he one of the things he said with my dad enacted in his job was you can come to me for any time you want you can come to me and ask me a question ask for advice whatever you just have to come with three potential solutions and yeah and he said the number of people who walked the door went i think i'll just do you know what brian i think i'll just do number one and he's like cool off you go that's it he didn't even i didn't even get to the question the only caveat i want to mention with that because i think this is where sometimes he he was a bit problematic my father or tom peters tom peters no disrespect brian love you very much uh no tom peters is that it can if someone's got like i need to go with a solution but i genuinely don't know because i'm in you know maybe i'm in a complete state and i can't get my you know my mind straight maybe i'm experiencing some some symptoms of burnout which makes that even harder for me to do and I can't I daren't go to my manager because he told me I can't go to him unless I go with solutions so it's almost like it's it's yes it's a good way of kind of creating that coaching type relationship but I think there is a slight danger in terms of psychological safety for somebody who's really struggling what do you think Rachel?

34:17Dr Rachel Morris:Well I was just about to say it depends on the psychological safety because if the manager had said just come to me with any, it doesn't even matter how mad they are. You know, your solution might be like, we fly to Mars and get a Martian to come and do it or this. Just as long as I know that you've sort of thought it through to start off with. But you've always got to recognise the hierarchy and the power differential. And it might be really hard for someone in a team to come up with some solutions that they're not sure about. But, and I think that's a good leader would actually be able to coach that person to come to solution.

34:54Dr Rachel Morris:So, you know, what do you think the real issue is? And okay, what could you do? You know, I've got some thoughts, which I'll share in a minute, but I'd love to know what you think. No, no answer is wrong. Any suggestions worthwhile here? Because it might not be one I've even thought of. Yeah, so exactly. Psychological safety is really important here. So that was tip three, stop rescuing other people. And I feel that this leads really nicely into tip four, because I think if we stop doing that, we might feel a little bit guilty yeah so tip four is expect the guilt because i think if you put any of these tips into practice you're going to probably feel guilty so if you start to like time block stuff in your diary so people can't book in with you as easily you'll feel guilty if you start to actually start to take the breaks you're going to start to feel guilty if you stop stressing about what's not in your control, you might feel a bit guilty.

35:48Dr Rachel Morris:And if you want to take more of a coaching approach rather than just rescuing everybody, you might feel guilty and you might also get pushback from other people. I think that's where we get this a little bit wrong. We make these plans because we know we need to protect ourselves in order to stay in our performance zone. But the minute we get pushback, our boundaries crumble and we go, oh, all right, then I'll just do that. I call that biscuit boundaries because we're not able to enforce them because we feel guilty. And I guess the problem with guilt is that we don't like it, but guilt, it's not a positive or a negative emotion.

36:28Dr Rachel Morris:I think it's just like a warning light. It's like a symbol, like, you know, my car has got this dashboard and there's this oil light that keeps coming on. Now, the oil light is actually wrong. It's saying you might need an oil change. I know that it doesn't. so I can ignore that guilt just says oh there's something that's happened that might not be ideal you might need to change your behavior it doesn't say you have to change your behavior it just says something has happened or you've done something that somebody else doesn't like now if I give a three-year-old an injection that three-year-old won't like it doesn't mean I was wrong to give it so guilt can be really helpful it can mean that I can change my behavior or notice I've done something wrong.

37:08Dr Rachel Morris:But the problem is the minute we feel guilt, because we're good people, we think that that is evidence of the fact that we've done something wrong or the boundary was wrong, we shouldn't have laid that boundary down. Actually, all guilt is evidence that the boundary is working. So if you get pushback, of course you're going to get pushback if I say no to somebody. Well, if someone says no to me, I'm not going to like it. I don't like people saying no to me but doesn't mean they're wrong to say no to me it's not wrong to enforce your boundaries and one one side note one thing that a lot of um professionals in high stress high stakes jobs get wrong is they don't enforce their boundaries and they think other people should enforce their boundaries for them but only you can enforce a boundary but when you get pushed back go of course I'm getting pushed back yeah of course my family don't like the fact I'm taking a day away from them.

38:00That's just then.

38:02Dr Rachel Morris:That doesn't mean I'm wrong to do it. And we have to tolerate that discomfort of maybe not everyone approving of us all the time, not everybody being happy with our decisions, maybe even upsetting a couple of people or people thinking badly of us. Now, it's really uncomfortable. But unless we do that, we'll just be trying to please everybody all the time and we'll just accelerate the burnout and the heat will rise and we'll end up with that frog totally frazzled in the boiling water can i ask you then about the people who will be offended or upset about this how we handle those so imagining a situation where you've um i've i've said to you hey dr rachel thanks for uh thanks for the interview um can i send you a photo of something about my body so you can tell me something about it right obviously that is not appropriate and that needs some rejection but i feel like oh we've spent an hour together she seems like a nice woman so how would you deal with me being upset or about that kind of now we can't use a different choose a different situation i was just thinking what photo you're gonna send me and then you're like oh so you could tell me what's wrong with it i was like what photo is he going to be sending me and why is he saying that in front of his wife

39:22Yeah, I realised, as I was saying the words, they were coming out of my mouth. I was like, this is an odd, this is an odd situation. Can we, can we, go on.

39:30Dr Rachel Morris:It happens. It happens. School playground, honestly, school playground, mums are like, oh, can I show you this kid's rash? Right? So it's a really good question. How do you say no to somebody without them getting offended or pissed off? Is that what you're saying? Hmm. Okay. or how do we handle it well first of all the most important thing about saying no is to take a pause it's like when when you when someone's asked you to do something i don't know about you i'm a massive people pleaser everybody's a people pleaser it's like it's what keeps us safe isn't it you know not not pleasing people that's an existential risk because when we were living in caves our amygdala will detect a physical threat a hierarchical threat or the group threat if people didn't like you you'd be kicked out you'd be probably die of exposure or eaten by a lion so our amygdala detects people not liking you just as if a bus is going to come and run you over or you're gonna be eaten by a tiger so we will go straight into your fight flight or freeze zone when you've got to say no to somebody I call that being in the corner you're backed into the corner um and it's not just fight flight or freeze it's fight flight freeze or fawn and that fawn reaction is what a lot of us do so I might try and say okay well I can't really see that rush oh well okay we'll just just send okay i'll have a look at it quickly if that's okay sorry sorry to be difficult you know so we're going to over helpful because we're fawning because we we want to make the threat go away so when we are in fight flight or freeze we're in our sympathetic nervous system um the adrenaline is going around our body and all the blood literally gets diverted from your prefrontal cortex up here into your big muscles so that you can run away or you know fight the line or something like that.

41:08Dr Rachel Morris:So you're not thinking straight. So trying to give a reasonable answer when you're in your sympathetic nervous system, while you're in your threat zone, it's not going to work. So just buying yourself some time, taking that pause is really, really important. You can take the pause, maybe just, can I check and get back to you? Or let me have a think about that. Or if you're in a meeting, I just need to really take a moment to think or go out or get yourself out the room, buy yourself some time somehow. And then you think to yourself, okay, what is the story that I'm telling myself right now if I say no?

41:43Dr Rachel Morris:So if I said no to you, that's sending me your photo, I'd be thinking like the story in my head is like, I really want to please Al. Like I want to be his friend. I want to be helpful. I want to be the sort of person that's helpful. That's the story in my head. I want him to like me. And then I can pause and think okay is is that true like if I said no to to that photograph does that mean I'm a bad but you know so I'm going well I'd be a bad person if I didn't look at it I'd be a bad person if I wasn't helpful is that really true actually it's not true the the truth of the situation is it's very hard to diagnose things in a photo I'm not your doctor I don't know the context I would actually put you more at risk if I did it that's the actual truth because what I'm doing then is focusing on the long-term reason I'm saying no rather than the short-term reason I might say yes.

42:37Dr Rachel Morris:I say yes to get out of the threat. I say yes to please people even if I don't want to do it. So it's about focusing on the long-term harm that might occur versus the short-term hurt that's right in front of me. So once I've taken my pause, get my head together, I can then go, oh, thanks for asking me. I'm really, you know, I'm really flattered that you think I'd actually know what was wrong. I just don't think I would be able to diagnose it properly. I think you'd be better seeing a proper medical professional that's actually done some general practice in the last five years that would be the sort of thing so buy yourself some time and the other thing is i think the more excuses you give or the more reasons you give the more it sounds like an excuse so if i started going oh oh by the way well i don't think i'm the right person and oh i don't really know what i'm talking about when it comes to dermatology and all you just like oh you're just trying to wriggle out of it if you just say actually i just don't think that would work best to go see a doctor.

43:28Dr Rachel Morris:End of. But the problem after that is when you come back to me and then go, oh, but it'd just be a quick photo. Can you just have a glance? And I thought, oh, I've set this boundary. You're testing it. I'm feeling guilty now that I'm not looking at it. Okay, stop. That guilt's just a warning sign that I'm not pleasing you. It doesn't mean I'm wrong. No, that can go right. I can now need to just, no, I know why I've chosen it. We use, you know, in the training that we do, we often use power mantras. So the power mantra is really helpful because it goes, I am choosing to X so that Y, even if Z. So I am choosing to say no to seeing your photo so that you are kept safe in the long run.

44:18Dr Rachel Morris:you get a proper medical diagnosis even if you don't really like it you're a bit annoyed and I feel guilty so what you've done you've predicted the long-term consequences rather than looking at the short-term consequences and the short-term consequences that make us feel guilty or even worse make us feel fear that something's going to go wrong and the worst thing underneath that is shame. Because often in these circumstances, we don't just feel guilt, we feel shame. And guilt says you might have done something wrong. Shame says I am wrong. I'm not good enough. I am not enough. And so if we're choosing to leave stuff on our to-do list undone, if we're choosing not to do everyone else's job for us, if we're choosing not to rescue that person, often our amygdala that wants to keep us safe but not happy it will detect threats everywhere it'll make us feel shame and it's very difficult to say no or set boundaries or limit our workload if we're feeling shame if we're feeling i'm not good enough or does this mean that i'm not the sort of person that helps people is this mean that i'm the sort of person that lets people down and that shame that's what keeps us stuck in the responsibility trap and not being able to get out of it whilst i am ashamed of suggesting I might send pictures of my bits to you.

45:41I am very, very pleased that we went down that angle because I think there's some fantastic stuff you just said there. So, yeah. By the way, I don't know where that came from. To be fair, you didn't specify, did you? Towards the end, I think I just did. So, Rachel, let's just... Dr. Rachel, let's move on to tip number five.

46:02Dr Rachel Morris:Why is it we do? oh i'm just thinking about what bits you were going to send me

46:12don't don't talking of tips let's talk about it x-rated podcast

46:24Dr Rachel Morris:right number five um you don't need to earn your rest um i think this is a really big one and do you ever feel guilty for resting or guilty for switching off sometimes yeah yeah i mean i think we've talked about this earlier weren't we um when you've been running at million miles an hour and you suddenly stop your brain will just be like oh what what else do we need to do but we've got so used to just working hard. And the success story I grew up with was, if you work hard, you'll be productive, you'll be successful. And so then when I'm not working hard, what does that mean? But we seem to have got ourselves in this mode of operating where we don't respect the fact we actually need to rest.

47:13Dr Rachel Morris:We think that I can only rest when I get to the bottom of my to-do list. And I don't know about you, but I never get to the bottom of my to-do list, ever, ever, ever. But when we are basing our idea and our identity on our output, which is that success story, I am only as good as what I do. Then if I don't do it, what does that say about me? And if I don't do it to the best of my ability, what does that say about me? That's why we're all often real perfectionists when we're in the responsibility trap and so we've got ourselves this way of thinking that we have to earn our rest we've got to deserve rest and actually it's the opposite way around that rest is a requirement for high performance we haven't got that into our heads either and I think we can get this what I call the superhero delusion that we can just work 24 hours a day and we never need to stop.

48:11Dr Rachel Morris:I genuinely used to work 120 hours a week when I was a junior doctor and I could not function. I could not function. I was an absolute, I don't know how I even walked back to my accommodation. We need to sleep, we need to rest, we need to do all those other things that keep us well. Rest is not optional. You've got to do it. If I was going to have an operation tomorrow morning I would want to know that my surgeon was well rested and performing and functioning well so not giving ourselves that that permission to rest is is you know it's just madness but we live in a society that talks about I was talking to this guy at the gym the other day and he said there's this influencer that's going on and on about you know rest is for idiots rest is for babies you know you can get by on four hours sleep a night you can't and likewise if you work the whole time you're you're not going to be in your performance zone um and the other thing is we only we get quite perfectionist about rest as well so we go well unless i've got the whole day off or unless i've got this afternoon i can't rest properly either but you know you can have five minutes in between customers or in between calls um you can take a lunch break and actually take that break even half an hour.

49:28Leanne you call it closing the laptop lid don't you? If well for like a little micro break yeah so you know you don't shut your computer down you just close it and it goes do do do do like I sometimes feel that that's what a five ten minute micro break does it just kind of gives you that just enough of a recharge to to enable you to go go for the next bit. I also I'm also a really big fan of talking to people who are who feel guilty about resting about what does rest actually mean rest is just a break from kind of your regular routine rest is also recovery and recovery activities can often feel much more comfortable for people who can feel guilty to to rest so one of my recovery activities is cooking and baking well al enjoys coding don't get it but he gets a lot of energy from it we'll both walk the dog um it's just activities that give you energy isn't it it doesn't always have to there's this kind of assumption that if we're resting we have to be on a sun lounge or in front of the tv or asleep or but there's so much more to it isn't there there is i do think

50:34Dr Rachel Morris:though that we if we only ever do these micro rests we're equivalent of you know your battery goes on to low power mode and you're charging it up enough just to get it out of low power mode and then it just goes down again just enough until you're never actually fully rested and recharged and I don't know about you but I can't be creative when I'm exhausted and depleted and a lot of my work relies on being creative and finding different ways basically to talk about the same thing you know a lot you know responsibility trap and stuff like that but I'm really not much use but we seem to think that like a battery level of 25 % well that's fine that's fine and that's okay but it's all driven by this guilt of just having too much to do and not getting through your to-do list the thing that's helped me loads and has helped a lot of people that in my communities and who I work with is viewing your to-do list differently and I don't know if this is gonna be helpful I'll share it with you I was listening to Oliver Bertman on a podcast he was talking about books that he wants to read and by the way if you haven't read Oliver a book and you come across 4 ,000 weeks, the most brilliant book about how our time is finite on this earth.

51:44Dr Rachel Morris:We're not going to get to most things we need to get to do. Anyway, he's a sort of anti-productivity guru. He's brilliant. He was saying he's got all these books. He's a journalist, books he wants to read. And he used to see these books as a bucket. So he used to have to read one book, then another book and just get down that list. He started seeing these books that he wants to read more as a river, that he can just take out a book he wants to, put it back, choose what he takes out. And so I've started applying this to my to-do list. And I've said, what if we see our to-do list as more of a river rather than a bucket?

52:16Dr Rachel Morris:You're never going to get to the bottom of that bucket on your to-do list. You're just not. And the more senior you get in an organisation, the more you'll have to do. So let's not see it as a thing we have to achieve or get to the bottom of. Let's see it as a river. And you can take a task out of that river and do it, or you can put it back. Some of them can just float by you. Well, Rach, I know we asked you for five tips, but I feel that we've got loads more than that. Tips on tips on tips. If our listeners only remembered one thing from today's conversation, what would you want it to be? I would say that the only asset, the most important asset you have is you.

52:51Dr Rachel Morris:Like you is how your brain shows up in the world. You is the way that you get things done. If you're not looking after yourself, putting that rest in and focusing on your work and what's important for you, if you're spending all your time doing everything for other people you are going to be so ineffective and you're not going to be able to show up in the way that you want to long term so unless you start to prioritize that and deprioritize meeting everybody else's needs you are not going to you are not going to manage that so the one thing you can do for your well being is to protect your time manage your energy embrace your finite capacity the only way you can do that is by setting boundaries and saying no and being prepared to tolerate the discomfort of that dr rachel thank you so much for joining us it's been genuine pleasure and um uh sorry i can't get over the tip thing while we've come back i don't even know you i don't know you an hour i have this effect on people i just everyone get so rude around well i'm quite rude myself you know anyway right we should go out for beers rachel dr rachel thank you so much for joining us can we just quickly go over those five tips again give us them give us them one two three four five okay tip one book your recovery in before anything else tip two get clear on what's in your control number three stop rescuing other people number four expect to feel guilty and use it as evidence that your boundaries are working and number five you don't need to earn your rest i think that number four is going to be such a such a powerful reframe i hate saying the word powerful but it really feels like powerful reframe powerful reframe there's so many people out there yeah it doesn't oh i hate oh honestly chat dbt is just ruined english forever uh but no i think that's a big one i'm already thinking of people in my life who I know experience a lot of guilt who are gonna I know that's gonna gonna really resonate with them um so listener we want to know as well what's resonated with you um or if you've got a tip of your own for switching off over summer um you can come and join the conversation on LinkedIn or Spotify leave a comment um because yeah it is it's difficult for us to to switch off over summer so anything that we can do to help each other is gonna be very very important if you've enjoyed today's episode we'd highly recommend checking out Rachel's brilliant podcast, You Are Not a Frog, for lots more practical advice on avoiding burnout and thriving in demanding roles.

55:29Rachel, where else should people go to find out more about you and your incredible work, including your upcoming book?

55:34Dr Rachel Morris:If people go to youarenotafrog.com, you can see the podcast. We've got playlists on burnout. We've got playlists on urgency trap and all that sort of thing. Also, if somebody's listening to this and they're not sure if they're stressed if they're overwhelmed or if they're burning out we've got a free pdf toolkit which will help them do sort of a bit of a self-assessment on that so they can find that at you are not a frog.com slash toolkit and you can also find out how to contact me and my team but me to speak all those sorts of things at you are not a frog.com and we'll leave all the links of course in the show notes we will we will be back on tuesday with another episode of our summer sessions we'll be joined by Dr.

56:13Jake Chuba different doctor he's not a proper doctor not like you not like you Rachel I will be asking one simple question am I the arsehole? it's something from Reddit it's a Reddit thing A-I-T-A is well known we haven't made it we haven't made it up ourselves it's going to be a funny one we've had to cut quite a lot of that out just to make it airable to be honest so yeah come join that one and then next Thursday we'll be sharing a conversation I've had on another one of my favourite podcasts it's called Friday the Burnout Podcast with Kate Donovan so until then thank you so much for listening Dr Rachel thank you for all your time and amazing advice shall everyone say goodbye?

56:53I think so, thank you so much Rachel thanks for having me, great to be here