328. Am I the Workplace A**hole? Summer Sessions #4, with Dr Jake Tuber

11:53Leanne:Do you know what? We need to start looking into that because I'm not sure that while Mr. Trump is president, we'll be allowed in.

12:01Dr. Jake Tuber:I'm going to give a big prediction here. OK, this is I'm going out on a limb. I'm going to eat crow for this when it doesn't happen. But I'm going to put my foot out there. So all of you on Polly Market and Kalshi with your international betting odds, you heard it here first. I'm going to shift the markets. I think Trump is going to resign before his term ends.

12:23Leanne:From your lips, my friend.

12:25Dr. Jake Tuber:I think he's going to resign. Really? I think he's going to resign before his term ends. I think at some point in 2020, probably 2028, he's going to resign. That's my prediction. The short answer is his life as president is about to get a lot less fun when the U.S. Congress changes hands and his party that has been dying to walk away from him. A lot of them are going to finally see him as a lame duck and just not going to get the support. And he's going to want to write the narrative as a winner. And he's going to write the narrative of I couldn't take it anymore. I'm going to go off and retire on my own terms.

13:01Dr. Jake Tuber:I don't need this shit anymore and step away rather than deal with the actual worst parts of the job, which is governing with an unfavorable Congress and lots of subpoenas. So I think that it is much more likely that he will just say, screw it. I don't need this. If I can't stick around for a third term, then actually try to just stick it out and spend his time doing the hardest parts of public service. That's my guess. He'll probably say it's due to health or age, which it very well could be, right? The guy's old and not in great health. But that's the short version of my prediction.

13:33Leanne:So we plan for like summer 2028, we should get in the country then. Yeah. Okay, Lee. How does this episode work? We're like 16 minutes in and we haven't even started the episode yet. This is how it always goes. It's fine. It's fine. So we're doing Am I the Arsehole, which is very famous on Reddit and I think some other platforms as well. So basically, we've all brought two genuine workplace dilemmas. I'll be amazed if we get through more than one each.

14:06Leanne:Nobody knows what anyone else has brought, so we're going to be surprised. We're going to take it in turns to read one out. And before anyone says a word, once we finish reading it out, we're going to each decide whether we think the person was fair enough, that's all right, and was completely out of order, they are the arsehole or we don't quite know yet. So maybe if we go arsehole, not, don't know. Can we not do double arsehole? Double arsehole. Then they're both arseholes with a shared responsibility. Oh. So you could have arsehole, not, or cheeks. Cheeks. Could be the bits that are outside.

14:40Leanne:So arsehole, not, cheeks. I think that's a bit disgusting. Let's just go back to arsehole, not, or double arsehole.

14:46Dr. Jake Tuber:D-A. You made it very physical, Al. I don't think anyone else was thinking about it quite so literally, but, you know, glad to know where you stand. I'm so sorry about that imagery that I've just conjured up.

14:58Leanne:So if you're listening, play along as well. Make your own judgment before we reveal ours. See whether you agree or whether we just completely lost the plot. And the fun thing is we were going to drink during this recording. I'm so glad we decided not to. I'm sorry.

15:13Dr. Jake Tuber:Are you guys not totally hammered now also? Is this just me? I thought that we were all showing up totally sloshed for this. Am I, was I off base here? It's nine in the morning. Like I had to wait a whole two hours, you know? Oh man, I wish we had. We recorded one yesterday. We did have a drink. Can you imagine the three of us trying to do a drunken recording? We would, we would be, it would be like, all right, we're 16 hours in. We haven't really started the topic yet. Do you guys want to do this? And I'll just be asleep in the corner. what was the um what was the the comedy double act from the 70s used to record um british used to record drunk uh very very cook um it'll come to me carry on lee so shall i go first yes and then and then jakey and then you all lovely okay i'm so excited so excited this go on go on go awful

16:09Leanne:am i the arsehole for firing firing an employee after their parents died i'm the vp of sales at a software company and one of our sales development reps parents passed away at the beginning of april sadly they were involved in a car crash and both lost their lives now the employee in question is very young 22 year old guy and has been with us for about 10 months he's a great employee and we were thinking about promoting him. His job is high paying for a new graduate role, about 90 ,000 with commission and base. So we expect a lot from this position. Because of the accident, we let him take one month paid leave of absence from work and he's returned a few weeks ago and his performance is severely lacking.

16:53Leanne:He's very unmotivated, not cold calling, not reaching out to prospects for the last two to three weeks, even since coming back. our whole management team has noticed this and we decided to let him go because we feel he'd need months and months to be able to produce again and we just can't wait that long we called him into a meeting on friday afternoon and gave him the bad news he was very calm and rude about it told us to go fuck ourselves and got up and went to his desk grabbed a few things and left i thought this was very very unprofessional and extremely rude i told my boyfriend about all this and he says that I'm the arsehole.

17:30Leanne:Am I? Oh, so we've got to decide this is that the, so the boss is the arsehole, the employees are the arsehole, or it's a mixture of both. Is that what we're deciding on this particular one? No, so is this, this person is asking, am I an arsehole? So basically saying yes, no, or maybe. Right, okay. So what do we think, Jake? Is this person an arsehole?

17:55Dr. Jake Tuber:I think so. I think they're the arsehole. That's my initial verdict. Oh, I may be.

18:03Leanne:Really? Not 100 % ass. Okay, well, let's start with Jake then, who does believe this person is indeed an a-hole.

18:11Dr. Jake Tuber:I don't think that firing someone who's not doing their job makes you an asshole. Let me be very clear about that. It's the employee's responsibility and the employee's responsibility to agree on the terms of employment, etc. You know what? Maybe I'll take it back. I don't know if they're an asshole. I think they're kind of an idiot. it. I think that if you have someone who you see as likely, who's already been performing well, who has undergone a severe outlier event, who by all means, reasonably speaking, seems kind of depressed after this and understandable. The idea that you are going to get someone else in there that is going to be as good and they're going to be up to speed within the next couple of months where you could otherwise spend that time and maybe a little bit of money getting this person some help and then keeping them around and maybe earning the high performer, high potential employees loyalty for a long time.

19:00Dr. Jake Tuber:I just think it's short-sighted. So unless this person has an ample talent supply waiting in the wings that's plug and play, and can really put them in and really perform right off the get-go, I just think they're kind of kidding themselves thinking that they're going to somehow recover. I think the reason that I would say they're an asshole is because it's a short-sighted decision. It's also, I think you just don't want to deal with the uncomfortable, the discomfort of having to help a person in this situation and find them the right resources. And that's what sort of makes them the asshole to me.

19:34Dr. Jake Tuber:It's not that they're holding them to a task for not doing their job well. That's fine. It's, you can't just, you can't take a little discomfort in a couple of unpleasant or hard counseling style conversations and referring them out to counseling or their employee assistance program or whatnot. To me, that just seems very much like, oh, this is emotionally uncomfortable. I'd rather just get rid of it. Let me give you my thoughts. Well, we don't have a whole lot of context on the company here. And so if it's a smallish company, then that loss in revenue could have a massive impact and it could put lots of people's jobs, other people's jobs at risk, because if they were a high performer, they'd be probably responsible for a large percentage of the sales leads coming in.

20:18So, and then the second thing is, we also don't know whether it is a very high performance, high pressure job like working in the stock market or whether you're like, this is like sales where it's a hundred thousand pound, hundred thousand dollar commission, where there are people knocking on the door waiting to come back in. So I think it's a shared responsibility because the person I think should have come back and said, the person who lost their parents should have come back and said, oh, they should have had a conversation and he says, you're not ready. So that's the, and the other person should go on, you're absolutely right.

20:45I'm not ready. Let me go part-time. Let me do this. Let me do that. So I am definitely coming at it from the corporate, the corporate jaws of greed. That's my side I'm coming from.

20:58Dr. Jake Tuber:I think that's a nice point about the size of the company and the potential impact of their loss of revenue. If it's a smaller organization, that one high performer's lack of performance is going to have ripples that go beyond. And it's also important to recognize, as you've sort of jarred for me, the emotional contagion aspects of somebody who's really difficult to be around the office with. Even if we have a tremendous amount of sympathy or empathy, that's going to bleed into the team environment. It's going to have a rippling effect impact on others. And that's part of where, you know, performance goes just beyond the specific metrics, but ideally should be looking towards the right behavioral competencies in an organization or in how you go about getting work done, not just what you accomplish.

21:40Dr. Jake Tuber:That said, though, I just have a hard time believing that they can replace that revenue quickly enough by firing this person and hiring someone else of quality if they really think it's a couple of extra months of support that they need. So again, to me, yes, the intelligence of the decision hinges on their recruiting capabilities, their onboarding capabilities, how quickly they can integrate the next person. It's just hard for me to assume just everything I know about what it takes to find someone who's really that great. And again, if this is someone who's demonstrated some real high potential in performance before this terrible accident happened, it's hard for me to assume that that's a rational recalibration, which is why I think they're probably just avoiding the emotional discomfort of having to grow and manage and help an employee like this and blaming it on, well, we can just find somebody else to do the job.

22:30Dr. Jake Tuber:I just don't think that you're going to find that person that quickly, realistically. But again, if the answer is yes there, that does change the situation. Lee, what do you think here?

22:38Leanne:I agree with everything you've said. I think there's two key things in this account that makes me think this person is an arsehole. One, that both of their parents passed away in a tragic accident. This isn't losing one parent to a long-term illness where you've got some sense that it's coming. This is losing both of your parents unexpectedly as a 22-year-old new graduate and you're given one month to get over it that makes you an arsehole and I think the second thing as well and I hear this talked about more less with grief and more with um women coming back after having a baby about how can the whole conversation around matrescence and why supporting women back into the the workplace isn't good enough is we just expect the workplace is almost gearing up to to welcome back a recovering employee rather than a transformed employee because they've gone through such a significant life event.

23:32Leanne:Nothing is normal. Nothing is the same. They will never get back to the point of normality that they left that job previously. They're never going to get back to that point. It is a, to use a cliche COVID phrase, it is a new normal. So I think there's much more we can be doing to support this person before we get to the point that it might not work out. And I think if all of this had been done and it was another three or four months down the line, I might be more inclined to agree with you well and say maybe but I think things like you were saying like like more flexible working coming in for certain hours maybe there's times a day whether they're better maybe do some body doubling exercise in terms of the the client outreach maybe finding something else for them to do that's a bit more kind of paperwork based or research based that doesn't feel as maybe as is confronting you're trying to have a conversation with somebody as a normal person who's just lost both of their parents in a shock accident I think there's things we could do to make this make this more probable that they will get back to performance by changing the nature of their work and how they're working and getting the additional kind of counselling support as well in place I think there's much more that could have been done because I ultimately agree with you Jake there's no I think there's zero chance that they're going to find somebody else they're going to recruit into this role get them up and running within a few weeks to the same level of revenue performance, even commercial.

24:58Leanne:I think it's a daft decision.

24:58Dr. Jake Tuber:And Lee, what does it say to the other people in the organization who see someone who's done a decent job go through something really bad? Again, listen, if this is the states getting a typical sort of month off unplanned, again, who knows what their corporate policy around bereavement leave or something is. But if it's a typical unplanned thing, that's actually generous here in the US for a new employee to just get a month, 10 months into their tenure off as, you know, as odd as that might seem to some listeners, that is probably going above and beyond in the eyes of the folks, the writer and the executive team at this organization.

25:31Dr. Jake Tuber:At the same time, though, what does that say to everyone else who's watching this happen? Like I could be someone who's seen as an up and coming star, was brought in for the right reasons, doing well. One really bad thing happens and then a couple weeks of underperformance and suddenly there's no loyalty on their side. It's going to be hard to get your best people to stick around after that. So I have one or two other thoughts. But, Al, I want to kick it back to you and see if this is causing you to dig in your heels further or to shift your thinking at all. I'm going to slightly change my opinion to this person is a small asshole, not a gaping asshole.

26:05Dr. Jake Tuber:Okay. So that's what I'm going to go with. Again, with the physical descriptions. but so i've slightly changed from it's 50 50 to no no they are a little bit of an asshole but but i still stand by the fact that it's sales and whether it's a small company big company whatever this person's vp i think you said leanne someone's losing money here do you

26:27Leanne:know jake i had that written down as a note as well that ripple effect in terms of how it be viewed in the organization by other members of the team literally reducing them down to a a dollar sign aren't they so yeah i i stand by it i think this person given given the context and and how awful this is and the the not much time passed i think this person is an arsehole right so we've got two arseholes and one small arsehole one half arsehole that's the name of our show fair enough two and a half arseholes is that what it is two and a half arseholes Oh, I love this. I love this. Okay, we're going to go and take a very, very quick break.

27:06Then we're going to come back with Dr. Jake. And he's got his scenario. We'll see you in a second.

27:11Leanne:Did you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's us, by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network? We actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work. And we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode. And two out of three of us are devilishly good looking. and you're not gonna say wit Phil, host of Nudge UK's number one marketing podcast it's brought to you we need to do this in threes the HubSpot Podcast Network the audio destination or business professional seamless, seamless tell us about your latest episode Phil we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work and we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business and brands as well.

28:08Leanne:It is. It's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better? It can. And are we all just status-seeking monkeys? I am. Go and listen to Nudge, Brab. you get your podcast but come back yeah come back definitely come because nudge isn't as good as this so come back i'll cut that out keep that in

28:41welcome back if you have come back and i apologize i tell you what whatever's in this episode i can promise you there is an awful lot more on the cutting room floor that was unusable and you can blame our friend from across the actually you can blame all of us we're all terrible people. Dr. Jake, give us your scenario. Let us decide. AITA.

28:59Dr. Jake Tuber:Right. So the writer writes in, I'm a 29-year-old first-time manager of a six-person team. One person on my team, a 34-year-old woman, is very outspoken. She does her work and most people don't seem bothered by her, but I'm uncomfortable with how she talks to our director. To be fair, our director can be difficult. He gives us too much work. He gets passive aggressive when we fall behind. Although he's generally hands off. He's still my boss though, and I don't think it's appropriate for someone on my team to challenge him rudely. So I've told her that if the workload is unreasonable, she should raise it with me and I'll decide whether to push back.

29:37Dr. Jake Tuber:I've pushed back before, but she keeps speaking up directly to him. So recently on a team call, the director was being passive aggressive again, and she gave it right back to him, basically implying that he was lazy and inconsiderate, and it made the call extremely uncomfortable. Afterwards, I told her she needed to stop and bring the concerns to me instead, and she said that she was doing my job by telling him when enough was enough. I told her she either needed to follow my direction or rethink her future with the company. Now some of our coworkers seem to think I'm siding with the director over the team, but I can't have someone on my team talking to our boss that way because her behavior reflects on me and i need this job too am i the asshole leanne what do you think oh i think it's

30:29Leanne:the wrong question i think the question is you do is your director an asshole oh because i guess what i'm thinking is two things if he if he is just his behavior is just unacceptable that he is passive aggressive to the point of of almost kind of boarding on bullying or undermining or or yeah then I'm kind of with if that is the case and I think I'm with the person who's clearly feeling their manager isn't doing enough to stop this type of toxic inappropriate unacceptable behavior or at least filter it enough from the team or particularly if there's pushbacks explaining why nothing can be done about it I also think this person probably needs to have a conversation with the director maybe the director loves this maybe they see it as like a sparring partner somebody's finally standing up to them and they'd like someone to to challenge them maybe they're they're mortified maybe maybe they want to fire everybody um I just feel that as if this was me I'd be thinking as a manager there's something I'm not doing effectively right now either I'm not managing up enough with my director or I'm not filtering enough for my team or I'm not explaining enough to my team about why things are the way they are.

31:50Leanne:I think I'd want to go have a conversation with my director, I think. So I don't know. I guess I want to know how much of an asshole is a director because maybe that will make the difference.

32:02Dr. Jake Tuber:All right, stop dodging the question though, Leanne. Is this person an asshole for telling this team member of theirs they either need to follow their directions or rethink their future?

32:12Leanne:Yes. they are an arsehole for saying that yes oh now i wish i hadn't gone behind but gone after leanne however that said i don't i i don't think they're an arsehole for saying this i think that the person who's talking up to their boss is a bit of an arsehole because it's not like they've just gone on and said i don't know what to do about it they've just they've clearly had a conversation about this probably several conversations with this person in and saying please come through me and yes you can go down the route saying well maybe there's not psychological safety maybe maybe this person doesn't feel like um that like but it all boils down to the fact that they have been human this manager's been human and saying please stop shouting at my boss talk to me first and this woman's gone no i'm gonna do whatever the frick i want at work and i'm gonna shout at your boss if i think so because that in my opinion the way i'd look at it is me saying to your boss this woman is a shit manager and i want her job can i just say i i have been in a management role where i've i've been promoted above a peer and this peer did take on this this type of of role where they would try and escalate things to my manager before going through me and it took a combination of me stepping up in terms of how to appropriately manage this person and my manager going, everything goes through the end.

33:39Leanne:You have a meeting with me once a quarter, but I'll talk to you about whatever you want. But until then, everything goes through the end. So I feel that, I don't know, this person, was she a bit of an asshole? A little bit. Was she wrong? Not all the time. All I'm saying. Like the dude says, you're not wrong. You're just an asshole. Love it. I don't think they're an asshole.

33:59Dr. Jake Tuber:I don't think they're the asshole for this. I think that if they're saying to this person, hey, don't make things uncomfortable for the team, regardless of what that behavior is, that's okay. In this case, it happens to be going to the boss that's doing it. But regardless, I don't think it's unreasonable to say, hey, if there's a challenge or situation that is not going the way you want, bring it to me and I can voice it. And then the two of them can talk about whether or not this person is doing enough to voice it. But I don't think they're an asshole. Where I would stop short if I could advise this person from the start is in saying you either need to follow my directions or rethink your future with the company.

34:36Dr. Jake Tuber:I think it can just end with, hey, you need to follow my directions. Hey, this isn't a choice. This is not appropriate behavior. If you have a challenge with the way this person is coming down, bring it to me and I'll bring it up. If you don't think I'm doing enough, maybe we'll consider having a conversation, the three of us. But I don't think it needs to become an if this or leave situation. I think you can just stop it at this is enough and that's the end of it. Again, if they keep pushing beyond that, then it's just, all right, you're insubordinate for doing something in general you shouldn't be doing.

35:06Dr. Jake Tuber:But that's sort of where I come down. I don't think they're an asshole for insisting that this person doesn't make things worse for everybody. I don't think the fact that it's the boss they're talking to in a bad way is actually the specific situation here. I think if this person's doing something that's making the situation uncomfortable and not helpful to the team and their boss has a right to say, hey, just bring it to me. I think that's OK.

35:26Leanne:I think I agree. My issue where I think they're an arsehole is the ultimatum. Yes. It's the ultimatum that's arseholey.

35:34Dr. Jake Tuber:Yep. Yeah.

35:35Leanne:I also I'm not I'm not too like you don't know the specific what the director said. Maybe the director is something outrageous that needed to be challenged. And I would want to respect that, you know, as a member of my team for standing up to somebody who was just being blatantly inappropriate or bordering on bullying or harassment. I'd want to see that type of behavior shut down as well. But it's the ultimatum that makes it not cool. Can I posit a theory? Is that right? Does one posit a theory? Does one posit something else? I don't know. Anyway, you said you're right. And I didn't think of this at all until both of you said it's the ultimatum.

36:11and now I'm thinking the ultimatum sounds to me like someone who's not particularly confident perhaps perhaps they're not a great manager or they're a weak manager they perceive themselves a weak manager because if you think about someone who is strong a strong manager say cut it out mate and walk away if you're in a pub and someone says cut it out mate and just goes back to their pint they're far more dangerous than the person who's going to go cut it out or we're going outside do you know I mean it's almost like they put the ultimatum in they're going, I need to reinforce that something bad will happen if you don't listen to me.

36:43Leanne:I also wonder as well whether this person, this member of the team just needs a bit more attention. Like sometimes you just have people in the team that just need attention. Do you know what I mean? You just need to go and spend half a day with them once a month to just, do you know what I mean? Let the light shine on them and then they'll be quiet for another three weeks. And I just wonder whether this is an element of this as well. This person is trying to demand the attention by calling out her boss's boss because she's not getting it from her boss.

37:08Dr. Jake Tuber:That's probably true. The age dynamic makes that a little bit atypical, right? You have a 29-year-old manager and this person on their team is a few years older. You would expect them to act in a way that is equally mature. And I think that's probably what's digging at this. I also wonder if it would be fair for the manager, in this case, the person writing in to say, hey, you know what? If you really have a problem with what our director is doing, you should bring it to me or bring it to them in private. But don't make this an issue in front of the whole team where it gets uncomfortable. I don't need to stop you from having a conversation with the director.

37:39Dr. Jake Tuber:I'm not trying to pull rank for the sake of hierarchy in and of itself, but it's the public airing of grievances in front of other people that makes that person feel like they are on the defensive, that person being the director. I think that the public piece of it is where I have an issue too.

37:56Leanne:Yeah, I could. Yeah, I think that's fair. I think that's fair. I have had my, my situations have been atypical actually. I'm not sure age and maturity was necessarily correlate, but maybe that's just my experience um i just i think you're right i think it's the if you've got an issue let's let's figure out a way to take it to the director together or figure it out it's it's the and my my feeling is that maybe that because they haven't done that this person is feeling they have to shout rather than deal with it so i think maybe it's a bit of both maybe i'm winding back a little bit and saying it's a little bit of that's an interesting point though that if the person feels like the manager's not doing and not doing enough and they might be taking it in their own hands the person might be looking for the manager's job and trying to be noticed the person might be one of those needy people the person might might just this might be the only point in their entire job they feel like they might have a little bit of control over over their work and so they take that the problem with these well the beauty of these and the problem with these is that we don't get that much context we only get the context that the actual op wants to share so there is that but I feel like there's development needed on all sides.

39:02Leanne:Yes. On all three sides. So do we want to go to our verdicts, Leanne? Is this person an asshole? I'm going to use your cop out and say they're a small asshole. A small asshole. I would say without the ultimatum, Yeah. there would not be the asshole. With the ultimatum, they are a bit of an asshole.

39:25Dr. Jake Tuber:I'll take it further. I think that they are not the asshole. The ultimatum is obnoxious, but it's still, if I have to pick from the binary, I think they're not the asshole in this situation. And by the way, if you're listening along with this, then let us know. Find Dr. Jake on LinkedIn and call him an asshole. Yeah, I was going to say, go on Twitter and hashtag Al, hashtag asshole, and let us know what you think. That's my burner account. Do not go on that account. Certainly do not look at the images. Oh, dear. anyway do leanne do we have time for one more we do okay so i've got one here um and i'm gonna tell you the story and i'm gonna it's gonna sound quite a long story but i'll tell you the story but the actual question is slightly different towards the end okay so this person they says they've got a new sales job working for a company uh the chair in my cubicle was uncomfortable af uncomfortable so on day three i brought in my own herman miller aaron chair i bet you're sitting on one of those dr jake fancy it's not the errand it's a slightly fancier herman miller but go on well those people who don't know what they are then i'm going to tell you how much it cost in a second on day four it was missing and i looked around and another sales rep was sitting on it i asked for it back but he basically told me to f off so i went and spoke to the owner of the company he told me that chairs aren't reserved they are first come first served i explained that I own the chair and it cost me$1 ,800.

40:53So we all know now how much Dr. Jake makes if he's sitting in a better one. The owner of the company said, I need to come in earlier if I want that chair. So I came in early the next day, same guy had come in even earlier and was sitting at it. I told him to give it back or I was going to call the cops. He refused, so I called the cops. Right. So I thought, right, I thought you'd like this. It was a turn I did not expect, Al. I did not expect the authorities to be involved.

41:24Dr. Jake Tuber:I love it. Keep going. Well, the thing is, we talked about ultimatums in the last one, didn't we? And this person gave an ultimatum, and it was not a light one. Okay, so the cops came, asked me if I could prove it was my chair, asked me if I wanted to press charges. My new boss said I'd be terminated if I press charges. And I said, absolutely, I want to press charges.

41:48Leanne:this is brilliant i want to be friends with this person i know i know and i'm like this anyway i was gonna give you an opinion but i wasn't i'm not good anymore uh so my new boss fired me on the spot so i went into the office picked up my chair and carried it out as i was leaving and yes the cops did arrest the dude who took my chair now here's the here's the aita you thought that was it no no know this is he's not asking him i'm an arsehole for doing that he said the dude who's took my chair has been in the industry for about 15 years is gonna lose his security license which me because he got fired because he got arrested which means he won't be able to work in the industry so he'll lose his job um and he won't be able to get another one he says i don't give a shit he shouldn't have stolen my chair or am i the asshole for making this dude lose his job right i don't know that first which is and it's just such a great one i'm so pleased i could end on it dr jay should we get

42:43Dr. Jake Tuber:your first first thoughts on all of what country is this happening in i need to know more information i want to know about the legal system here i need some backdrop on what happens when you call the imagine being the police officer who comes into the office and is like i i'm sorry we got a call of reported theft. And they're like, yes, sir, there was a theft. And the thief is right there sitting on the stolen object. And the cop is like, I'm sorry, it's still on property. You know who did it? And everyone's like, yeah. And they have to go and actually, I guess they have to arrest this person.

43:21Dr. Jake Tuber:I don't even know if that really counts as to sliding a chair 20 feet over count as theft? Like, is that a prosecutable offense? I suppose technically so, right? It's your property and who knows? I don't know the legality. My verdict is no, they're not the asshole. I said it. They're not the asshole for getting this person fired, for taking their chair back. No, they're not. I see it. I want to come to you in a second, but just you brought a good point. Theft. So strictly, obviously, depending on which country this is, but theft will be taking it from someone this is technically breaking entering because they're not actually taking it they're just occupying it at that point in time squatting they're squatting so yeah exactly i was like i think that would you struggle to press charges on that you're like theft have they taken it home no they haven't anyway lee what are your thoughts i'm i'm gonna

44:14Leanne:say this person is not an arsehole because i believe one horsehole and another arsehole cancel each other out and i think their colleague is being is being a bit of an arsehole by by just i mean it's my chair dude i brought him from home i paid for it it's not yours give it back i asked politely i gave you an ultimatum you didn't listen you know it kind of it kind of feels like this this this person who stole the chair or borrowed it or squatted is is a bit of a bully um so So yeah, I think it cancels each other out. It's all ridiculous. Ultimately, I think some lessons were learned. Yes, I agree.

44:58Dr. Jake Tuber:Here's how this should play out. You don't like your chair and you say to your boss, hey, do you mind if I bring in another chair that's office appropriate of my own so that I can be more comfortable doing my job? And the boss says, yeah, sure. As long as you're not bringing in some strange rolly ball, like I don't see any reason why not, but our chair is sufficient. and he brings in the chair. And then if somebody takes his chair, he says, hey, I brought that in. I had permission to bring that in. And the person says, fuck off. And he goes to the boss and is like, hey man, this person stole my chair.

45:27Dr. Jake Tuber:And the boss is like, yeah, dude, you stole his chair. He asked permission to bring that in. You can get your own$18 million chair or whatever it was. And listen, as somebody, I was joking before, I do actually have a Herman Miller chair, but I want to be very clear. I bought it off Facebook Marketplace for about$200 and I got it and I drove about 30 minutes to get it. And this guy had like seven of them in his garage, meaning they were 100 percent stolen from whatever office he was fired from. And I just figured this is a strict don't ask, don't tell situation. You know, I was like, listen, I have no proof that these were stolen.

46:01Dr. Jake Tuber:I just thought maybe he happened to get some expensive chairs and felt like, you know, selling them on Facebook Marketplace and asking me to pay cash. So listen, I just say this as somebody who values values a comfortable chair. I'm a hundred percent in this person's corner. I think I think their co-workers and asshole. I think their boss is an asshole for saying, sorry, chairs are first come first serve. They are unless you bring in your own chair, in which case it's your chair. This is no this guy. This guy did the right thing. I think this guy should go and set up his own organization that directly competes with the old one and just put them out of business fully.

46:39Dr. Jake Tuber:I think you got to make it your life mission to take revenge, to take take the poor guy who was laid off after his parents death from our first scenario and go sell this product, baby. Go out there and build and take it over. I'm 100 percent on this person's side. What about you? Where do you come down here? Oh, 100 percent. This guy is an asshole. And I tell you because.

46:59Leanne:Oh, really? No, no, no. Sorry. No, the guy who stole the chair is not the asshole. He's not the asshole. Sorry. For a moment, I forgot the format of this episode. There's a lot of pronouns being thrown around.

47:11Dr. Jake Tuber:There's a lot of people in this. We need names. I think the person who stole the chair should be called Al. And the person who brought in the chair should be Leanne. And then the police officer who comes in and makes everything right should be Dr. Jake. I think just for the sake of organizing everyone's mind around.

47:31Leanne:I think if we're being more kind of true to life, there should not be that you're the really shitty obnoxious boss.

47:37Dr. Jake Tuber:I think I'm the judge who gets this case and is like, guys.

47:42Leanne:Too bad you got the chair. Yeah, I know. You got the chair from the man who apparently accidentally ordered.

47:49Dr. Jake Tuber:I took the chair for evidence and now I have it at home.

47:56I love this. I love this. I'm also loving the idea that if this person who did sell you the chair is listening to this going, shit, what's the story? oh I thought I ordered one but I accidentally ordered seven so I'm just selling the other six yeah that's what I'm doing anyway look I want to go back to when I was about six years old and I want to out someone from my school and his name was Clive Woodcraft and he was an absolute arsehole sorry that's the most British name I've ever heard in my life

48:23Dr. Jake Tuber:Clive Woodcraft

48:28Dr. Jake Tuber:oh yeah it was Clive Woodcraft from Blubberpool Sir Clyde you're making this up come on it's true and it was no and it was Clive Woodcraft of 19 Hapenay Lane Staughton on Bishop we don't have video here we might use this as a clip though because Jake is absolutely pissing himself it's the most British name in the world

49:03Dr. Jake Tuber:I'm going to do a character skit where I appear as a British guy and Clive Woodcraft who steals your chair where was this though

49:14Leanne:would he have actually called himself Clive Woodcraft yes it was down south but anyway and for about four weeks going every time I got sweets he would go and steal them off me Oh, you bastard, Clive. I know. He'd go and steal them off me. And then he saw me in the park and we got a new bike and he took his skateboard and he smashed the back wheel of my bike. And I was so devastated that I thought, huh, I'll get you, you fucker. So basically, I was at school and I said, oh, Mrs. Bullard. There you go. There's another name for you. Mrs. Bullard, our primary school teacher, said she asked you to go in the courtyard and check the temperature.

49:51So we went to the courtyard, check the temperature. And I went to Mrs. Bullard and said, Clive's in the courtyard. And he got such a bollocking for it. And I think that, do you know what? I'm slightly concerned. Outwitted him. I'm slightly concerned that my story has been slightly overshadowed by the names and the characters in it. Anyway, so have we got a consensus on this? Are we all saying that he is not the asshole? Is that what we're saying?

50:11Leanne:Yeah. Jake?

50:13Dr. Jake Tuber:I have done a quick LinkedIn search and I don't see anybody named Clive Woodcraft online. There is a Sir Clive Woodward who's a rugby World Cup winning coach with a lot of followers on LinkedIn. I would love to see that boxing match, wouldn't I? No, this person is 100 % not the asshole. This person is absolutely in the right. And I want this person to take the person from our first situation and Mrs. Bumgarner, whatever her name was, and Clive Woodcraft and go start a competing business that sells chairs.

50:47Leanne:Yes, perfect. I love this. Great. Well, do you know what? We need to do another one of these. We need to do a regular one of these. This is a lot of fun. I've really, really enjoyed this. I think we all brought two, and we've been recording now for an hour, and we've only done one each, so we need a part two. We should solicit some from listeners. I wonder if this replaces the surgery.

51:06Dr. Jake Tuber:Oh, goodness.

51:07Leanne:Yes, exactly, exactly.

51:08Dr. Jake Tuber:We should solicit some of it, because these are pulled from Reddit, right? So I wonder if we can ask listeners to anonymously essentially give us their own am I the asshole that hasn't necessarily made it to Reddit as well.

51:19Leanne:Yes, definitely. Hello at truthliesandwork.com. Send us that and we will absolutely feature it in a future episode. And I will set up a webpage called truthliesandwork.com forward slash ass. And that's what I will set up. Is that not taken already? You can actually just submit them.

51:40Oh dear, Lee, I think we probably need to call it a date.

51:43Leanne:We probably do. But yeah, let us know where you landed on today's dilemmas. Let us know on Spotify, comment, send us an email, join us over on LinkedIn. That's where the conversation continues. yeah I hope you enjoyed it yeah and I think what we were trying to do was show that every story has like two halves to it and you know there's two sides to a story but basically we just took the piss out of a lot of people Dr Jake said some stuff that I've had to cut out we all said some stuff you have to cut out let's not put this on Jake we all got a bit carried around a bit freaking dark yes we did yeah we're back on Thursday with another fantastic interview with our very own Leanne Elliott hey yeah we're sharing an interview she did on fried the burnout podcast with kate donovan do you know kate jake don't you uh yes yes i know kate i do it should be great yes kate's fantastic uh lee yes um i i was grilled i don't think i've ever done a podcast interview and felt more more interested in genuine engagement but also really freaking uncomfortable um she pushed back on me hard we talked about what's filling in workplaces we talked about what the world would be like if we trained all of our managers um yeah if you want to literally hear me sweating check it out and next cheers we're back for another summer session which we're calling hr confessions with a very special guest host emma jameel emma jameel jake have you seen this on the youtube no i haven't i'm so excited the dance video that emma created um emma about like like things that like conversations you have to have over and over is a hate chat.

53:17Leanne:I'll WhatsApp it to you. It's the best thing I've seen on the internet. I can't wait.

53:20Dr. Jake Tuber:I can't wait. It's going to be a great episode for our listeners as well.

53:27And by the power of production, I will probably just put a little sample and maybe leave it underneath, ticking away underneath what we're talking about here. So do not miss that. Do not miss Dr. Jake's newsletter, which apparently you've not even written yet and it's supposed to go out today. Is that correct?

53:45Dr. Jake Tuber:Yes, it's, well, the day of recording. I don't know when this is. This is in July, right? So we'll see if it makes it out by then. But thanks for reminding me, Al. I was going to go take a nap, but I guess I'll do some work. Well, no, tell us what's your Substack? Substack, workwise.substack.com. Please subscribe, follow along, and share anything that you'd like me to write on. And, yeah, listeners, let us know which country we might be welcomed in if we're going to do a live show. So throw some countries out there, and we'll see if we can get some visas. yeah love it love it um okay oh by the way also go and subscribe to dr jake just for just for the headline on his um on every email i think it's one of one of my favorite things i've ever read right we'll see you soon say goodbye dr jake goodbye dr jake bye-bye bye