In short
Digital well-being and leadership; (1) University of Nottingham research on “techno stress” and “digital mindfulness” at work; (2) whether managers should let employees follow them on Instagram (“discerned disclosure”); (3) Truth or Lie: does returning to the office improve collaboration?; (4) Workplace Surgery: managing a former “nightmare boss” who now reports to the listener; fixing a bottleneck manager role; whether culture matters when people hit targets.
Guest backgrounds
Danny Wareham is a workplace/leadership commentator and guest host on “Truth or Lie” (behavioral science + workplace culture). Host team includes Al (business owner) and Leanne (charge occupational psychologist).
Key claims
Higher digital mindfulness (intention, attention control, self-compassion) predicts lower techno stress/exhaustion and better mental well-being. For RTO, proximity can help idea generation, but groups also create groupthink/status/hierarchy costs; evidence doesn’t prove RTO is the causal fix. For Instagram, total privacy doesn’t solve concerns; share processed struggle, not in-the-moment hardship.
Notable examples
Microsoft study (61,182 people) linking remote work to more siloed networks; face-to-face vs video idea generation experiments; John Lewis RTO claim; listener’s nightmare boss now as direct report; “awestruck syndrome” bottleneck; “when they go low, you go high” revenge-free professionalism.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VODanny's Updates and Musings
2:13 to 6:41
Discussion about personal updates, music, and cultural references.
“This is only the second week of proper scheduling.”
Techno Stress and Digital Mindfulness
6:41 to 13:31
Exploration of new research on digital mindfulness and its impact on well-being.
“When we still all had hope and dreams for life.”
Reflections on Digital Mindfulness Research
13:31 to 14:00
Critical thoughts on the implications and motivations behind digital mindfulness research.
“It feels like a piece of research written by a frustrated parent that the kids are always on their phone.”
Techno Stress and Social Media Dilemmas
14:00 to 24:08
Exploration of digital mindfulness, employee privacy on social media, and the challenges of sharing personal experiences online.
Techno Stress and Social Media Dilemmas
24:12 to 24:40
Exploration of digital mindfulness, employee privacy on social media, and the challenges of sharing personal experiences online.
“Yes, it's got shows that are under 30 minutes and iDigress helps eliminate complexity, complications and confusion in your business with frameworks and strategies that achieve scalable and sustainable success.”
Return to Office and Collaboration
24:40 to 28:00
Discussion on the impact of return-to-office mandates on workplace collaboration, including research findings and insights.
“Let's return to the scheduled programming.”
The Case for Face-to-Face Collaboration
28:00 to 30:06
Examining how physical presence can enhance idea generation and creativity.
“video conferencing groups generated fewer creative ideas than the face-to-face groups now the important point here is that they generated fewer ideas however they didn't choose worst ideas.”
The Drawbacks of Group Dynamics
30:06 to 33:48
Discussing the cognitive and social costs of group collaborations and how they can hinder productivity.
“There's a famous study by Janice in 1972, which came up with the idea of groupthink.”
Reevaluating Office Work Post-COVID
33:48 to 34:22
Exploring the misconceptions about office work improving collaboration and the importance of context.
“It just feels like it is because that's the way we've always worked in the past.”
The Importance of Clear Goals in Organizations
34:22 to 36:28
Highlighting the necessity for organizations to define goals rather than sticking to traditional work environments.
“And then what is the right tool, approach and environment for that?”
Show all 16 chapters
Questions Around Managerial Decisions
36:28 to 38:26
Reflecting on past managerial decisions and societal biases towards remote work.
“poor at doing that so we cling to old tropes so if you see job descriptions that say to you know we're hybrid it's two days a week in the office it's instinctual to go why why two days why not three?”
Navigating Relationships with Former Bosses
38:26 to 42:00
Advice for managing professional relationships with past superiors, particularly in new dynamics.
“But looking back on it, it's because it's the environment that I was in wasn't safe enough for me to make a decision that was more aligned with my values.”
Navigating Management Challenges
42:00 to 43:54
Exploring the complexities of managing former peers and challenging relationships.
“I'm with Danny, you know, when they go low, you go high, to quote Michelle Obama.”
Addressing Bottleneck Issues in Teams
43:54 to 45:50
Discussing how a manager can avoid becoming a bottleneck in their team dynamics.
“is all about becoming a bottleneck in their own team.”
The Importance of Organizational Culture
45:50 to 48:00
Debating the significance of company culture in relation to job performance.
“These help reinforce that you're not the oracle, that you're not to be awestrucked, that I really need your help.”
Understanding Culture vs. Cult
48:00 to 53:22
Distinguishing between company culture and cult-like environments in organizations.
“And this person is a manager and they say, does culture really matter if people are doing a good job?”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:02Al Elliott:Coming up in This Week in Work with the awesome Danny Wareham. I've got a new word. This comes off the back of some new research from the University of Nottingham and it might be the key to improving well-being in a digital world. I'll reveal all very, very soon. Yeah, also this week, a question for anyone who manages people. Do your team follow you on Instagram? Because there's a strange little tension here. Being a normal human online and being the boss, so how much of yourself should you actually share? I think we have an answer. And in truth or lie, is working in the office actually better for collaboration?
0:36It's one of the biggest arguments organisations have to justify stricter return to office mandates. So are the likes of Amazon, Disney and John Lewis right? Or is collaboration sometimes just a convenient excuse for managers to get their people back in a building? I've read the research and I've got a verdict.
0:54Al Elliott:And in the world famous weekly workplace surgery, one listener tells about a former manager who made their life hell. I got so excited when I read this one. I know, this is going to be a good one. Now in a remarkable twist of fate, that manager has joined their new team as a direct report. So should they rise above it and stay professional or is it finally time for that sweet, sweet, sweet revenge? This is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioral science meets workplace culture. Brought to you, of course, by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
1:22Al Elliott:My name's Al. I'm a business owner and I'm here to ask the questions you might be afraid to. My name is Leanne. I'm a charge occupational psychologist and I'm here to answer them. And together with the help of our brilliant guest host, Danny Wareham, we'll help you simplify the science of work and build amazing workplace cultures. We'll be right back after a quick word from our sponsors. Does your experience with AI sound a little like this? You prompt for 20 minutes, the output is polished, is confident, and is completely flipping useless. Well, that's what happens when AI doesn't know anything about your business.
1:52But you know what does know something about your business?
1:55Al Elliott:HubSpot. HubSpot's AI. It works with your actual customer data. Every interaction, every signal your team has generated over time. So instead of prompting and hoping, you ask once and ship it. Check out HubSpot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
2:17Al Elliott:Welcome back. Welcome back. This is only the second week of proper scheduling. We've had, as you probably know, we had August off podcasting, which was lovely, but it's nice to be back. Yeah, we missed you. We missed you. We missed you. It's even nice to be back with guest hosts. We love our guest hosts. DW, Big Dan is in the house. Danny! How are you, mate? A-L-L-E. Great to see you guys again. Do you have a lovely break? It doesn't really work. It's not the same with Brangelina or the other ones. Doesn't really work, does it? Aaliyah. Aaliyah. Doesn't really work. Aaliyah. Wasn't Aaliyah in them?
2:50Al Elliott:Oh, yeah. Married to Nelly. Is that right? Is that right? Now, I always get confused. Who was the one who died in a car in a plane crash? And who was the one who was on Fresh Prince? And who was the one who was... No, Lisa Left Eye Lopez. That's nothing to do with these two. But she is also DNRC. Yes, because she died in a car... Danny, you know everything. Talk to us about these R &B stars. So Aaliyah, she died in a, she was in a plane, but there's a theory because the plane was flying for a long time and was unresponsive. So there's a theory that there are actually all of the passengers had passed away before the plane ran out of fuel.
3:28And I think she was romantically linked with R. Kelly. So maybe that's one to skip past.
3:37Al Elliott:Yeah. Maybe that's why she was in The Plane Dead, because R. Kelly was like, oh, she knows too much. Maybe. Yeah, yeah. Bad times all around. Who's the one that's married to Nellie then? Mrs. Nellie. Sure they had like, you're like, no matter what I do, that one. Nellie, rapper, wife, real-time research people. They're in, oh, Destiny's Child. What was that? A shanty. A shanty. A shanty. As in like a shanty, as in like Murder Inc. Records. Sure. yeah i loved ashanti back in the back in the early 2000s i used to shanti and uh ja rule and uh nl cool j and all that i was and i was the geekiest still i'm the geekiest whitest man in the world so i used to play it really quietly in my car just when i drove through just in case anyone thought i was trying to be like cool you know i mean any uh so urban mc hammersmith if you if you want to check him out he's a oh no he's he's just a fabulous that i really like it when like you you have these biases and opinions of someone based on how you think they look and then they blow you out the water with how they actually sound or behave or etc and mc hammersmith is he's like louis theroux uh meets sort of harry mack meets l.o cool dear very yeah i just like that sort of dissonance that you have where you you're challenging your own beliefs harry mack is so awesome i can sit and watch hours of harry mack central leanne she's like what are you doing shut up anyway this has taken a different direction to what i thought uh danny what's going on with your life i'm sure you've been putting stuff on on linkedin recently about and i'm not taking on the linkedin have you ever heard of this platform called linkedin You should get into it.
5:22The main things that have been going on, obviously, every year during sort of September, October, November, there's a lot of kind of conference season and expos and awards season. So for us independents, it means there's an awful lot of time actually out and about and away, which is great. It's really great to see people because obviously individual working, small business working can feel quite lonely at times. but the trade-off is you've got to compound all of that admin the back office the article writing all that kind of stuff into a smaller times game time frame which i'm just not good at i'm not i'm not great at planning i like to do things under pressure so i can be my own worst enemy
6:01Al Elliott:over the last sort of four or five weeks you do your homework on the bus that kind of guy or i come up with an excuse as to why i haven't done it but yes that's exactly what i do genuinely when i was a kid we got a new dog from the rsbca which is if you're not from the uk it's like the dog shelter we got a new dog and it genuinely ate my homework book and i i just had to say i hadn't done it to the teacher because i can't say that the dog ate my homework but anyway well we can't we've got nothing to say have we actually little life update the life day as we speak well in the last three hours we should have broken ground on our new house and we should be having the beginnings of a honking great hole um hopefully within the next within the next 48 hours we hope we've not been down there to check so maybe they haven't yeah you're gonna live in a hole like a hobbit it's like the year 3000 we live underwater that's that's what i learned the other day completely changed subject you know that um year 3000 off of busted in the uk did you know it's covered by the jonas brothers in america it's like one of their biggest hits i'm like what what rock have i been living under or was i in like the noughties it's not no that was a thing waffle house jonas brothers yeah huh do you know this danny did you know this no no but i've got this weird sort of deja vu when it comes to boy bands that they all kind of merge into one because i too was very urban in my uh musical choices so when you start hearing about 9-1-1 and blue who were back in the charts by the way you got my body shaking i used to freaking love 9-1-1 that's one of my first first concepts a bit of eyc they all kind of blur into one although an interesting story i met my partner we met through online dating and the way that she she chose me and she reached out was because in my bio I wrote about the Backstreet Boys and how Howie D is the most underrated member so why not get in touch and I'll have a chat about it and nearly 15 years later she's still hanging around waiting to find the answer Aww that's cute That is really cute That is cute I have seen some clips at the minute of the kind of reunion tour they're doing in Vegas and it does look very cool Yeah Yeah Anyway Good times, the noughties, eh?
8:25When we still all had hope and dreams for life.
8:28Al Elliott:Yeah. All right. Anyway, I feel like we should probably get onto the business of the news roundup, Lee. So we, in our usual style, the Angos first. Lee, what have you seen? Oh, let's get, let's get, because Danny, you've listened to the show for a little while. Where do you stand on the jingle? Beneath the news roundup. I quite like background music that you're voicing over, as long as it's not distracting. And personally for me, lyrics are distracting. So as long as the music doesn't have any lyrics, and just as a side note, I can't listen to music whilst I'm working if it has lyrics because I end up typing what is being sung.
9:10So a little bit of background news, background music. That's good.
9:15Al Elliott:We may bring it back. you need to tell us in the comments yeah let us know on spotify for listening jingle or no jingle because we've lost an entire star just because one of our lovely listeners wasn't a fan of the jingle in the news roundup yes of course we reacted immediately but by the way denny i'm the same i i have to have if i've labeled sort of like house music with no lyrics or something if i get lyrics i'm exactly the same um i created on spotify maybe about 10 years ago um a reading um playlist and it was just classical music and like a little bit of like sort of lo-fi whatever no lyrics whatsoever someone picked up my phone went god did you go to reading have you got that playlist i'm like no that's actually just reading because i'm such a loser anyway lee what are we talking of reading things what have you been reading this week i've got a new word go on i actually don't know if it is new word but i had not heard of it so you tell me techno stress danny what do you think it is i would guess it's something like when you're bot sitting sitting around and waiting for technology to do its it shizzle and you stressing out over its accuracy how long it's taking you know it's that feeling you get when you're watching the microwave countdown saying come on come on come on i'm hungry here um but i also need to stop it before it beeps and wakes anybody in the house up because it's midnight snacking i think it might be when you have to when you've got a new piece of technology on your desk and you've got to learn how to do it and learn how to use it really really quickly or a new piece of software or something and you're like this can just get in the bin why can't i go back to why can't i just be the same as it was which is weird because i actually quite like it's not the same as it was to quote our harry um get me whipping out the freaking i know you know fire kind of yeah all of that and but more generic okay i guess so techno techno stress is the stress overload and exhaustion that can come from our use of digital technology at work.
11:07Al Elliott:Seems a bit of a cop-out, that. It's quite broad, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, for psychologists as well, that's quite unusual. Unusual. But yes, I saw this in a piece from the University of Nottingham, and it's some new research that was published in Computers and Human Behaviour, if you're interested in the journal title. Oh, my favourite publication. The researchers have developed and validated something called the Digital Mindfulness Scale, which they say is the first measure designed to capture how mindfully people engage with technology at work and whether that protects their well-being so they define digital mindfulness as engaging with our devices and applications in a deliberate attentive and non-reactive way so you remember that time where you kick the printer across your business like office across the car park i did do that that would be an example of being reactive it was deliberate experiencing techno stress i was but it was deliberate and i was very attentive about where it was going and how much how many pieces of paper would it would piss out all over the road yes yeah so um anyway the scale measures three things intention so having a clear purpose for using technology attention staying focused and resisting digital distractions and attitude which is responding to yourself with kindness and patience when things go wrong something you need to work on al my love so to create it they first refined the scale with a panel of mindfulness and digital technology experts and then tested it in a two-part survey of around 400 uk employees and one month apart what they found was that people who scored higher in digital mindfulness went on to report lower techno stress and exhaustion and better mental well-being a month later huh yeah interesting interesting um yeah so the researchers also kind of made the point that digital mindfulness is something that can be developed so one of the phd researchers elizabeth marsh um said setting an intention before picking up a device protecting your attention from notifications and meeting digital frustrations with self-compassion rather than self-criticism can all be helpful they did say that digital mindfulness is best developed through a combination of individual skills like intention setting, intention management, self-care, alongside organisational changes to things around norms around availability and notifications and the right to disconnect.
13:31Thoughts? Danny? It feels like a piece of research written by a frustrated parent that the kids are always on their phone. Yes, that's my first, and I know that's not to take away from the research at all because I'm sure that's not what it is, but a lot of research feels to be born out of frustration you know people are playing on their phones people are doom scrolling um and anything that kind of anything that gives a bit of intentionality around you know why are you on your phone why are you distracted are you context switching because these these notifications going off can distract you and that can be very cognitively laborious um yeah it's not necessarily a bad thing i just struggle with a lot of academic stuff that feels a little bit wishy-washy and reactive in itself you know digital mindfulness and yeah i imagine josh sticks and a lot of josh sticks were used in this research other inside sticks are available just for the purposes of balances sorry sorry elizabeth march i don't don't mean to poo-poo the huge amount of work that's gone into this at all and i'm sure it will be as a seminal piece it's going to be really fantastic just put your phones down just put your
14:45Al Elliott:phone sound i think there is something about there's something about i think some academics who have got the time and the space to sit around and go do you know what i wonder if there is such a thing whereas the rest of us are going we just have to keep out our day we've got to get this done like danny you've got to get these things these posts out these things done and then he's off on a plane somewhere exotic and whereas the uh you know but a rumor rumination as my brother would call it navel gazing um but uh but that that feels really bad because i'm now just basically shitting on all of academics i'm not at all you've done some really cool things but this one feels a little bit like uh yeah yeah pretty obvious sorry elizabeth yeah i mean it's it's not it doesn't feel groundbreaking like we learned something incredibly new i do remember reading there's something around um gen z and how once it was having a big impact on their engagement performance at work was outdated tech to the point where they had much higher intentions to quit because they just couldn't deal um so so i guess it could tie into that a little bit um but i don't know i don't know i just kind of feel like it's it's the same thing that's already been done right we've already kind of there's already been research into kind of things like you were saying down like doom scrolling and attention splitting and and just mindfulness in general and you know not losing a shit when things go wrong so i don't know how much this is bringing us it feels like something else we're being told to learn about and and worry about potentially as business leaders and owners um but what i would very much enjoy is if we could get our friend emma jamil to do some kind of techno song on techno stress that would be amazing i couldn't work to that though i'd end up typing out her lyrics
16:35yeah so there you go i mean i'm not i'll leave a link if you care if you care what have you seen
16:41Al Elliott:so i was reading an article uh written by kelvin cowl k-o-k-o-k-a-o-k-a-o i'm not sure cowl k-a-o i'm not quite sure how to say that but kelvin kelvin k kelvin k who was in 911 were the original members actually um and he was asking what do you do do you allow your your employees to follow you on instagram because he does have an instagram account and he uses it personally so he'll put like pictures of kids or his holidays or what he's eating or you know football or whatever and so he will actually he says i've been doing that but then i've been slightly worried that my employees follow me because he's got this creative agency so it's kind of like everyone's online anyway so he says i don't really want them to follow me but i feel a bit of a weirdo saying you can't follow me so it's like his he was the entire article was like how much should i share or should i make it totally private and then if i make it private that make it look even worse so there's a couple of things in this article i'm gonna pull out first of all the main kind of crux of it was how much of yourself he asks do you actually let people see when you're also the boss somebody might say the obvious answer lock it all down don't let anyone see anything but then that creates like a bit of a mystique about yourself and especially if someone already follows you and you suddenly go private, that's like, oh, why have they done that?
17:55Al Elliott:They're a bit worried about that. But then also, if you just yourself online and go, you look at these idiots, the playing football or whatever, and you use language or whatever, then that's a little bit dodgy as well. So going totally closed doesn't magically solve the problem. It just swaps it for another one. He comes across this idea of discerned disclosure, which sounds a little bit wanky management, but the idea is actually quite practical. So if you are going to share something quite personal he says share the version of the struggle you've already processed not the one you're still in the middle of for example he said he went through some hard times a few hard months and he's so after he went that was a hard few months and here's what i learned from it he says if in the middle right in that challenging time in the business where he was dealing with shit that no one else needed to find out about if he'd gone god it's been a tough week people might go why what happened and it made you think oh my god am i gonna lose my job uh so instead he says if If I'm going to say anything like that, I tend to talk about once it's finished.
18:51Al Elliott:But I don't know. I mean, we don't have any employees. When I had employees, Instagram wasn't invented. So what do you guys think? For me, there's two parts to showing who you are. The first is, is it public or is it private? That's a choice that you make. The second is what people take from it. So how do people interpret that information? And you can call it, was it discern disclosure? I think you called it. So I'm going to wait until something's passed before I tell you what I learned about it. And that'd be really useful. That just sounds like the LinkedIn, you know, I had to, my cat passed away five weeks ago and this is what it taught me about B2B sales.
19:34It just feels wanky. I think I've actually read that post. Yeah. So if you are putting something on the internet, regardless of where it is, the first thing is it is forever like if you delete it it'll still be cash somewhere on way back machine and so on so you have to be comfortable with anything that you are broadcasting publicly regardless of whether you log it down as private or not so if you don't want it to impact on your personal brand then don't stick it online and if you're thinking twice about putting something online i had an old manager that used to say to me if you're having to ask you already know the answer so if you're thinking this is a little bit i'm not sure about this do i really need to share you know every sandwich i've ever eaten then don't you know maybe close the laptop and go and speak to somebody go and say hello go for a walk in the park um yeah so am i have i got old as well is it that talking about 90s r &b has suddenly made me realize that you know you only need a tv with three channels and put that phone down that's kind of how it feels but yeah why why are you worried about what strangers on the internet are thinking about you and then how can you turn any any piece of news or life of impact into some sort of social clout you you've your ducks are in the wrong row yes agreed lee what do you think i've been desperately trying to find kelvin cow on instagram and i can't so clearly he's done something he's got privacy
21:12um i do you know what this this if i oh my immediate reaction was kelvin nobody cares nobody cares what you post on instagram no really you know i'm not sure that your employees are going to be as invested as you believe unless you're putting out content to danny's point that has some kind of impact and intention and is either telling a story of the company or where it's going or I don't know something more interesting than just kind of where you took your kids over the weekend. In terms of sandwiches I'd be much more interested in that actually if they were like sandwich of the day. I'd follow that on Instagram, I probably do.
21:50But I think Danny said it all you know if you're putting something online you need to be you need to be mindful what it is. If you're a founder or a business owner or a leader you might be a little bit more found um a little bit more mindful if you're that concerned just don't have an instagram
22:05Al Elliott:make it private i mean there is another side this is a guy called alex i want to say alex six maybe i've just made that up but i can't remember his second name and he started a um he started to help desk like help scout sort of thing about 10 years ago and he blogged every single day on his journey to um 100 000 um mr like monthly recurring revenue and he was the good and the bad and he made this decision and he said it straight away i made the decision that i'm going to share everything so that my customers my potential customers my competitors my employees can see all the good and bad stuff um and we just shared it publicly and i'm like well that's intentional i know intentional sounds a bit like manageable wanky but that's intentional it's fair enough um if if you're going to share your views on immigrants on on you know on on instagram and that's probably i obviously wouldn't like you to share those views but if you do have to do it maybe that's more a private whatsapp group or something with some of your equally racist friends with with resting brexit face i don't know sandwiches didn't it but uh yeah so i i'm with you guys i'm like just if you're going to post it and you worry what's going to think about it like danny says if you have to ask the question you probably already know the answer and just because it's not on instagram doesn't mean it didn't happen like it's okay to just live your life offline that's fine yeah i made the mistake last year valentine's day of telling my partner i love her rather than putting it on facebook what a rookie what a rookie danny danny danny honestly you choked my water right that's probably a good point to go to a quick break after the break we've got our truth to lie segment which is um increasingly with new people which i'm really really enjoying i love your truth to lies liam but it's cool to shake it yeah a bit boring listen to my voice yeah so we will We'll see you in a second with the lovely Danny Wareham.
23:51Welcome to the break.
23:52Al Elliott:Yes, my favourite part of the show. These two idiots have stopped talking. Yes, I want to tell you about my new favourite podcast. No, that's a lie. It's my old favourite podcast. I've been on this one for a while. Didn't know where that was going. It is called I Digress. It is hosted by Troy Sandidge and it is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Yes, it's got shows that are under 30 minutes and iDigress helps eliminate complexity, complications and confusion in your business with frameworks and strategies that achieve scalable and sustainable success.
24:23Al Elliott:At least that's what it says here. And if you do want to hear a really personal story, go to episode 136. This is Troy's honest account of fatherhood, killing hustle culture and what really matters when you stop performing and start living with intention. Listen to iDigress wherever you get your podcasts. That concludes the break. Let's return to the scheduled programming. Back to the studio.
24:49Al Elliott:Welcome back to Truth or Lie. Here's that time of the week where we take a popular workplace idea and ask if the research actually backs it up. Now, this week, we're diving into the RTO world. That's return to office mandates. You know that. They know that. That's on the moon. They know that. It's Nanford from about 15 years ago, love. Anyway, this is specifically the claim that return to office is better for collaboration. Now, retailer John Lewis in the UK made this claim in April this year, saying that head office staff have to spend more time working in person than not. And this is on similar to Disney, Apple, Barclays, Amazon, a lot of people.
25:25Al Elliott:But is it true, does returning to office actually improve collaboration? Danny Wareham, it is over to you. I think because Leanne will pull me up if I don't, we have to start with what's collaboration? How do we define collaboration? Because are we talking about communication, coordination, so are people working more efficiently, idea generation, decision quality? Because there is research into all of those areas and all of them form part of collaboration. What we're talking about here is the quality of the ideas that are generated and whether they're adopted. This is specifically what we're going to focus on today.
26:02So when you're in person, do you make better decisions and do you get a better variety and quality of ideas to pick about to make those decisions. So the case four, should we start with first? So there is a legitimate case. It's not simply return to office bad. There is some benefit in the research to being close to each other. So first of all, physical proximity can improve collaboration. There's a large scale study that I found, 61 ,182 people in a Microsoft study found that moving to firm-wide remote working made collaboration networks more siloed and more static, and they had fewer connections between otherwise disparate groups.
26:53So in other words, working remotely actually encouraged siloed tribal behaviors. So remote working appears to reduce the likelihood of people connecting across any organizational boundaries. And one of the ways that can be mitigated is by looking at your organizational structure. But when you've got 61 ,000 employees, that's really difficult to do. And part of the reason that physical proximity helps is because a lot of ideation comes from completely informal conversations. You know, we don't schedule things in our calendars like 2.17pm, spontaneous conversation with someone from another team makes me think about or rethink about a particular problem.
27:32That just doesn't happen. Whereas bumping into somebody in a corridor, being in a meeting or being at a coffee machine can often get those sort of cognitive juices flowing. So physical proximity is one, four. A second is that there's strong evidence around creative idea generation. so books and levav conducted a laboratory experiment and a field experiment across five countries and we compared collaborating face-to-face versus video conference and video conferencing groups generated fewer creative ideas than the face-to-face groups now the important point here is that they generated fewer ideas however they didn't choose worst ideas.
28:18So if they had a selection of ideas to choose from, actually it made no difference whether they were in person or whether they were video conferencing. It was purely the generating of ideas that was different. So in other words, being together helps you generate possibilities, but it doesn't necessarily help you choose between those possibilities. And the third argument for is that there is more sensory and environmental information, which can actually make creation more easy as well, he says in his best English. So again, in the same study, if you think about when you're on a video call, you're on Zoom or Teams and various other video conferencing that's available, then you're concentrated on one set of stimuli basically right in front of you.
29:02Or if you're a good interviewer, you're staring at the camera so you don't look like a psycho. whereas when you're in person there is more stimuli more data there is different environments that you're reacting to people's body language and so on so because there is more stimuli that can increase the amount of creativity that's in the room and you can think of it as physical environment leads to broader attention which leads to potentially broader associative thinking which can lead to more ideas. However, that is just an inference. So we see more ideas being generated but we're not entirely sure why it is and this is just something that is inferred from that four argument.
29:46So proximity changes how we act. Idea generation might be improved in person and a varied environment rather than just a screen might improve the variety of ideas but it is a very weak link and it's kind of inferred so we all call on the four yeah it certainly sounds like there's some there's some merits absolutely but it also sounds maybe some yeah let me shoot some holes in those merits so the case against groups are really bad surprisingly bad in fact at generating ideas there's loads loads and loads of research going back a half a century about brainstorming and collaborative meetings that do not generate ideas at all.
30:31There's a famous study by Janice in 1972, which came up with the idea of groupthink. And this is kind of a seminal piece around, in essence, people working together. When you pull those ideas, the loudest voice in the room kind of dominates and molds those ideas. And that's been repeated plenty of times over the last 50 years as well. Mulliner-Johnson, Salah's meta-analysis, brainstorming groups generally are less productive than nominal groups in both the quantity and the quality of ideas. There's also the idea of production blocking. So production blocking is where, if I give you a scenario, so somebody comes up with an idea, there's only one person that can speak because otherwise you just get a melee of noise.
31:19So somebody waits to speak and they might have a different idea but in the meantime they've forgotten that idea or they've lost their train of thought or they've shifted their attention or they've decided it wasn't worth or wasn't safe to say it and as a result you end up with the same dominant ideas as well. The second is that being physically together doesn't mean we all collaborate and contribute equally. You know a physical meeting creates social hierarchy. You always have one person who stops the talking and says, right, we're finished talking about Love Island or whatever it is, or the football at the weekend and starts the agenda.
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31:56Somebody always speaks first. Somebody speaks most. Somebody is perceived by the group as being more authoritative. And all of these things mean that if you have a different idea, there's lots of social pressure to not share that idea. You might end up with lots of volume, but you're more likely to end up with lots of validation of that voice in the room. So people going, yes, boss, that's a good idea. I can see how we can build on that, even though the idea might be a bit pants. And that status plays through in our third argument against, which is physical meetings amplify status because everybody tends to know everybody in that room.
32:35So if there's a senior executive, for example, somebody further up the tree in the hierarchy of the business, then if they propose something, the likelihood is that they will get lukewarm support from the people that are actually staunchly against it, or you'll get silence. It's very rare that you get somebody called out on what a wanky idea that might be. So people don't put forward, they just go with the flow. And then after the meeting, they have a bit of a nag, a bit of a bitch about it in the corridor about that was a stupid idea, but it's too late because it's already been solidified. Somebody's taken away the actions.
33:09You know, you might think it's collaboration, but it's not. It's just capitulation. It's not that people aren't collaborating. It's just they collaborate badly in those situations. So is it a truth or a lie? I'm going to say it's a misleading truth. There is genuine evidence that physical interaction can improve some forms of collaboration, particularly creative idea generation. However, there is also really strong evidence that groups themselves introduce cognitive and social costs. But importantly, the evidence doesn't establish that returning to the office is the causal intervention to solve the problems.
33:48It just feels like it is because that's the way we've always worked in the past. So we have this kind of bias for familiarity. The bottom line is the office can create better conditions for some form of collaboration and worse conditions for others. So what matters most is not simply where people collaborate, but how the collaboration is designed. So we've spent five years now since COVID trying to work out, trying to argue whether people should work from home, work from the beach, work from the office. It's about time we started asking what is it you're trying to achieve in the first place? And then what is the right tool, approach and environment for that?
34:26Yes. Love that.
34:28Al Elliott:Leah, I know you'll be all over that. It's context. And I've said that before even COVID, I used to manage remote teams and manage teams as a remote manager. And my role and what I had to do as a manager didn't really change, but the intentionality changed, maybe the frequency changed. It's just context, whether you're remote or whether you're in person. It just seems like an excuse. Whereas if they were saying, you know, we think it's better for collaboration because we intend on doing X, Y and Z scenarios when everyone's back in the office. And we know the pitfalls of group thinking and social hierarchies.
35:07And that's what we're going to try and mitigate. Then, yeah, that would be a convincing argument to why they might be experiencing better collaboration in person. But otherwise, it's just an excuse, I think. Let me give you a little story. This is a true story about my mum's husband. His name's Merv. He won't be listening, but it doesn't matter. How rude, Merv. He is a huge, huge Liverpool football club fan. Good lad. This is a man who has or tried to have Liverpool duvet covers on his marital bed with my mother. He has more pictures of Kevin Keegan on the wall than he does of us as his stepchild.
35:45Merv has never been to Anfield, the home of Liverpool. He has never been in the office. So does that mean that Merv is less passionate about what Liverpool are trying to do? Just because he's effectively a remote fan? Well, no, because he understands what the club is about. He's passionate about what they're doing. He understands all of the artifacts, the symbols, the language. He sings the songs. he get dressed up in his kit as a 65 year old man and watches it on the telly every week so and that's because liverpool are very clear on what are we here for what's what are we trying to achieve what's our goal if you pardon the pun and the thing for me is organizations tend to be pretty poor at doing that so we cling to old tropes so if you see job descriptions that say to you know we're hybrid it's two days a week in the office it's instinctual to go why why two days why not three?
36:40Why not five? Why not any? And start to challenge around those things. So if organizations, rather than focusing on what's the lever, what's the measure, what's the variable we should be investigating, and instead focused on, should we be designing work around the advantages that the environment gives us? Or should we be trying to design the environment around some sort of ideology of work? What are you trying to achieve? What's the right approach?
37:05Al Elliott:why they pay danny the big books yes danny for pm yes yeah in case you don't know danny's got a book consolation it talks a lot about this kind of thing you go definitely go and buy it it is a fantastic read that was really cool i really yeah and also i'm always a bit worried when someone who's very clever comes on and does and it's not like you i'm not that clever next week shall we when you get a clever person on well i'm worried that i'm like i'm not going understand it or i'm not going to um i'm not going to see like the practical application but yeah totally get that totally get that so yeah we'll send this to um to walt or whoever's in charge of disney these days and um see see what he's going to say about it we're all guilty of it in 2019 i was running a media team in a in a telecoms place and one of my um one of my staff asked me if she could work from her camper van in newkey she was a videographer she did a editing of videos and I instinctually said no.
38:00But looking back on it, if we're measuring, you know, do you perform your role based on the outcomes rather than based on the geography, then actually there's no reason that I should have said no. So we're all guilty of this kind of bias of stay where we are, do what we've always done.
38:14Al Elliott:Just really quickly, Danny, can you think back, and I know whether you're able to or want to say this, but do you know what your motivation was saying no? Do you know what it was? Why it made you say no? At the time, no. But looking back on it, it's because it's the environment that I was in wasn't safe enough for me to make a decision that was more aligned with my values. So actually conformity and keeping the status quo is kind of what we're all wired for until we know that it's safe. I didn't feel safe. You don't get to work for Nuke. But it is what you're used to, isn't it? And what you're kind of brought up in.
38:53Because my Remarque team, it started, I worked in a delivery role that was community-based. So there'd be a team of us, then we'd be kind of bouncing between community centres. Sometimes we'd be together, sometimes we'd be apart. So we'd be a dispersed team. so I was always in the in kind of the habit of seeing teams as like work is is about work getting done rather than where people are but I think if you're particularly in the constraints of like a call center where everyone is physically you know um infamously on on kind of the same the same floor then it's different isn't it but yeah I did I guess that maybe that's my disappointment is I hope that that the big shift of COVID would maybe open our minds and maybe start to question some of those biases and assumptions that that we had and it just seems like it's it's not really it's just
39:39Al Elliott:kind of we've defaulted back to what's comfortable yeah people are people are people yes absolutely well talking of people this is that's not a good link al talking of people being people people have questions al talking of people being people people have questions i might cut that bit out i might leave it in to show that i can be a bit of an idiot okay so we're on to the world famous weekly workplace surgery first of all thank you so much danny that was brilliant uh we danny's gonna be like it'll be here probably not as much dr jake because we can't stop dr jake from turning up but we will definitely we'll definitely have uh we'll definitely have danny back on very very soon if you have your own um your own truthful either either maybe you'd like to deliver yourself or you want us to cover then let us know links are in the show notes okay so world famous weekly workplace I said, really, really, incredibly, I'm questioning.
40:26Al Elliott:And Danny. And Danny this week. Yes. So, listen up, Danny. This one's about my former nightmare boss now reports to me. This could be good. Five years ago, I worked for a manager who made my life hell. He ruled through fear, created constant urgency, expected ridiculous hours, took credit for my work, and made anyone who pushed back feel like they were the problem. I asked to go and work in a caravan UK, and he said no. No, that's not this. So eventually I left completely burnt out and moved on. Well, karma has a sense of humour because after a recent restructure, he's just joined my team and he reports to me.
41:01Al Elliott:Part of me wants to be a complete professional and treat him exactly as I would anyone else. Another part of me would be lying if I said there wasn't a tiny bit of satisfaction in the situation. Danny, Leanne, what would you do in my shoes? Go on, Danny. I would be you. If somebody treats you badly, like say you were going to give some money to somebody who's homeless. And that homeless person bit your hand off and said, you know, I don't want the sandwich that you're giving me. I wanted the cash. And they have a bit of a rant at you. You don't stop being altruistic and giving to the homeless because that's their reaction, not yours.
41:35And for me, if this guy really is a bit of an arsehole, that will come out in the wash eventually anyway. So you do you. You be as good a manager as you can. if I can be a bit vulgar about it one of a great piece of advice is that my mum gave to me was don't play with the pigs in the shit because the you just get dirty and the pigs enjoy it so don't load yourself don't load yourself just just you do you and be as good a manager as you can there's learnings in there for you and the bill will come due he will he will either move on or he'll develop which ultimately is your role as a manager anyway love that Lee don't underestimate the amount of pain this person is already feeling by the fact that they're now reporting to you you may never know but i find it highly unlikely this person isn't mortified that they are now reporting somebody that they used to to manage and not treat particularly well they might not have that awareness that they didn't treat well but they'll and that even more of an ego is going to mean they're even more mortified by the fact they're now reporting into into you so i think you can take sweet satisfaction knowing they're probably squirming at this situation.
42:46I'm with Danny, you know, when they go low, you go high, to quote Michelle Obama. It's don't let it jeopardise your reputation within the company or reflect badly on you. Treat them the same as you would anybody else. I think Danny's right. I have a feeling this is going to come out in the wash anyway. I think this person will expose themselves in ways that you don't need to. If you're an idealist like me, there is an opportunity here for the manager, the new manager, to realize that part of the reason they are the way they are is because this person was an arsehole to them. And they probably thought, I'm not going to be a manager like that.
43:21So actually, there's an opportunity here to actually address it, to thank the person and say, you know, I learned so much from you, not all of it good, and it's helped me to be better at what I do. You don't necessarily have to call a spade a spade, but your job as a manager is to help get the most out of your people. And some of those people might have rubbed you the wrong way in the past. So when they go low, you go high.
43:47Al Elliott:Love that. Love that. And let's be honest, if you hang around, if you live long enough, you're always going to meet someone who's a bit of an arsehole. Okay, so question number two is all about becoming a bottleneck in their own team. It says, Hi, Alan Leanne, and I'm going to pencil in here and Danny. They didn't know. They didn't know. Danny, they didn't know. I run a marketing team and everyone's genuinely good at their dog, good at their job, but somehow Oh, it's been a long day. But somehow I've become the person everything has to go through. I thought hiring strong specialists would mean I could step back, but half my week now seems to be spent translating between people and joining the dots.
44:21Al Elliott:Nothing is obviously broken, but the team doesn't seem to work properly without me holding it together. So have I structured the team badly? Is this just the part of being the person in charge? We went to Danny last, first time. I think this is right up Danny Street. Go on then, DW. Is it the end up being the Danny show today? um my immediate my immediate thought is that the two parts of this one is kudos for recognizing for having the self-awareness that you might be part of the the challenge um i love it when leaders have have self-awareness the second is there's a phenomenon called awestruck syndrome which is where there is a single person usually at the top of a team or top of an organization that tends to know a lot of things about the organization about the processes and how we do things around here and they unintentionally become this kind of oracle that people go to for all their issues and a more democratic that they try to be.
45:20So when they try to delegate down to their team, their impatience can get in the way of, well, they're not quite getting it fast enough, so I'll take it and do it. It becomes a vicious cycle of reinforcing that actually you can have learned behavior in the people that we don't need to do it because Danny will do it eventually, for example. And you get internalized resentment in the Danny in the scenario because my people just aren't taking the bull by the horns or taking the initiative. And so for me, I would approach this through communication. These help reinforce that you're not the oracle, that you're not to be awestrucked, that I really need your help.
46:01I really need to, I need your help because none of us are as smart as all of us. And this is why you're part of the team, because I value your input. And if it keeps having to be me that does everything, then we're missing out on why we're all here in the first place and the strengths that we bring to it. So it starts with self-awareness, which they've got, and a bit of communication as to why we're here, what we're here to achieve. Very nice, Lee. anything to add i agree i think communication is going to be key here isn't it and i think what the the thing that sticks out to me in your email was i thought hiring strong specialists that seems to me you haven't said more about it but you've got people that may be quite technical or quite very focused individual contributors perhaps and your job as a manager will be an element of bringing these people together but also coaching them on how they work as a team to get this task delivered there's some kind of task cohesion missing here perhaps so it might also be looking at the workflows and where where the common commonalities are in terms of when people are coming to you is it for decisions about a certain point of the process is it about um the the next bit of flow like what happens after kind of step two of the process i wonder if there's any themes that are going to come through if you start to think about why people are coming to you it might be as simple as you're not giving them the autonomy or the permission to to kind of be able to make these decisions independently and that just comes from you going yeah that's that sounds great in that scenario again don't feel you need to come to me that's fine you've got it um so there's going to be an element of kind of coaching these people to be a bit more independent and autonomous whilst also just looking at there are any themes in what why people are coming to you and is that maybe something in the process process that's broken because that's a really easy fix it is.
47:54Al Elliott:Nice. You've just solved that problem there. Very, very nice. Okay, so on to our final question. And this person is a manager and they say, does culture really matter if people are doing a good job? I manage a team where most people hit their targets and a few regularly exceed them. But some of those same people are completely uninterested in the company culture. They do the work, they're professional, but they don't really engage in the wider business or company values or any of the stuff we're told is important for building a strong culture. Part of me thinks, does it actually matter? If someone's good at their job, they deliver results, why should I care whether they feel emotionally invested in the company?
48:33Al Elliott:But I also wonder whether allowing people to completely opt out of the culture eventually starts to affect the rest of the team. Guys, I think the question here is, should someone care about cultural buy-in if they're already doing really well? Danny. There's so much to unpack in here. you can't opt out of culture for starters it's like saying you know i don't care about the air culture is an emergent factor built on the the day-to-day experiences the behaviors that are happening um in all of your people all the time it's it it just happens it's it's just there you get get a culture by design or default and design is better but if your people are good at what they do if they're delivering the performance that you want and they're professional and you say they do everything that you need an employee, then what's the issue?
49:25Ultimately, culture is, what are the behaviors that are going to help deliver our organizational strategy? If those behaviors are already manifesting, if your performance is already there, then it doesn't matter that, you know, it doesn't match the words on the wall with your values, or that they don't know what's going on elsewhere in the business. That's not a requirement. The requirement is why are you fixating so much on what's laminated rather than what's lived in your organization so i'll get a bit soapboxy about this but you already have a culture it's and it seems to be working well just because you can't codify it it's not the end of the world
50:00Al Elliott:so lee have these people created their own micro culture that's kind of not connected to the main culture the macro culture because this works for them or what's going on possibly possibly i mean we'd need a lot more information to know that for sure but but yeah it's it's it's it's possible that that's happened and that's why kind of as a as a unit their function to point where performance is is good i'm wondering if this person is maybe over invested and we don't know but i'm also wondering if this person is a founder and is questioning why their people aren't as emotionally invested in the company as they are i don't know all this person very much is and is wondering kind of why there's there's that difference and I guess if it if you are a founder or maybe a senior leader who is very connected I guess my question would be what's what are they not understanding about what the organization is trying to do in terms of how it operates in the world or the values that it has or the mission it's trying to deliver because people are clearly very engaged in their role and what they're having to deliver as independent people in the organization it sounds like the disconnect is how that's contributing to the greater meaning of the organization and I mean I'm kind of with Danny I'm not sure it really matters that much unless you're starting to see people become quite quite detached or siloed or kind of head down do my work go home there's not kind of any any sense of of kind of relationships being fostered within because then that could be early signs potentially of some sort of slow detachment which then can turn into disengagement then can turn into people leaving or if they are fundamentally just opposites of what the values of the organization are which some people do find themselves in in roles like that for necessity at times and ultimately they will be short-lived they can lead to to kind of a version of burnout which i've heard called moral burnout where you have this distance between personal and organizational values so that is not to say there aren't risk factors there but my vibe is really that that you're the you're you've more got beef that you care about this company more than your team do and I think Danny's right is the question is why why is that the case I think there's a danger that you're not focusing on culture you're focusing on cult you're creating an environment where you know every everybody is focused towards one person there's less opportunity to dissent you know this is pretty much the definition of a cult culture is not it's not about creating a great place to work it's about creating a place where great work is done and if the behaviors that you have are creating a place where great work is done then your culture is probably heading in the right direction the only thing that the the the interest in this which is a good thing that this person has is how do you know which bits are helping so you can replicate and do more of it but ultimately it doesn't matter what you call it or what label it comes across are people reliable delivering results good at their job and doing what you need which is what you say they are doing and if that's not enough then maybe you're looking for a cult rather than a culture like that like that right well that's the end of the episode today i'm off to google the entomology of cult and culture and see if they come from the same root i'd be very no they don't daddy's just said they don't know Oh, man, you just ruined my...
53:29Culture comes from cholere, which is the Latin to tend to cultivate. Cult comes from cultus, which is for worship. Ah. You're so smart, Danny. Or it could be all bullshit. Like, he says it very confidently. Just make it up confidently. Well, I'm convinced. I'm convinced.
53:52Al Elliott:Okay, Danny Waring, thank you so, so much for joining us. people will want to find out more they can go find you on linkedin anywhere else they can go and find you do you have a book uh i yeah i don't know if it's been mentioned um and they can find out about the book on linkedin as well so no danny warham on linkedin i'm one of the few i'm not the software designer from connecticut um i am the organizational psychologist from stoke-on-trent and you can also find me at dannywarham.com or at fergan.co.uk which is my consultancy site lovely right until next week if you've got any comments please leave them in the if you're on spotify please leave them on comments otherwise you can find leanne on linkedin and you can talk to her there you can get in touch with us in the show there's loads of show notes to check out the new website it has got it's genuinely got about two and a half thousand new pages on the website so go and have a look at it and it's got everything on there lee anything to add before we go nope i think that concludes today's business thank you danny awesome as always yes loved you thank you and we'll see you on Thursday.
54:50Bye. Bye-bye.
From the publisher
Welcome back to Truth, Lies & Work, the award-winning workplace podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture. This week, guest host Danny Wareham (organisational psychologist and author of Constellation Leadership: Reimagined for a Connected Age) joins Al and Leanne Elliott to break down the science of work, debunk popular workplace myths, and solve real listener dilemmas.
🔥 Stories covered
Technostress and the Digital Mindfulness Scale
Leanne shares new research from the University of Nottingham revealing the concept of "technostress" and how the Digital Mindfulness Scale measures intention, attention, and attitude to protect employees from exhaustion and burnout.
Source: https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/news/mindful-use-of-digital-technology-could-reduce-workplace-burnout-study-finds
Executive Instagram: How much should leaders share?
Al explores the line between being human and being the boss on social media. Using Kelvin Kao’s article on the dangers of oversharing and the concept of "discerned disclosure," we look at how to build real trust with your team without dumping unprocessed stress on them.
Source: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/today/voices/oversharing-boss-workplace-boundary-leadership-trust-social-media-6318726
🧠 Truth or Lie: Does returning to office actually improve collaboration?
Danny Wareham dives into the research behind Return-To-Office pushes from companies like Amazon, Disney, and John Lewis. Does forcing people back to the desk genuinely drive teamwork, or is collaboration just an excuse for management control?
Research mentioned:Brucks, M. S., & Levav, J. (2022). Virtual communication curbs creative idea generation. Nature, 605, 108–112.
Bloom, N., Han, R., & Liang, J. (2024). Hybrid working from home improves retention without damaging performance. Nature, 630, 920–925.
Yang, L., Holtz, D., Jaffe, S., et al. (2022). The effects of remote work on collaboration among information workers. Nature Human Behaviour, 6, 43–54.
Schwenk, C. R. (1990). Effects of devil's advocacy and dialectical inquiry on decision making: A meta-analysis. Organizational Behavior and Human Decision Processes, 47, 161–176.
💬 Workplace Surgery
This week we answer three pressing workplace dilemmas:
• My former nightmare boss now reports to me
• I think I've become the bottleneck in my own team
• Does culture really matter if people are doing a good job?
More from Danny Wareham
• Website: https://dannywareham.co.uk
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danny-wareham
📬 Connect with Al & Leanne
– LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/truthlieswork
– Al Elliott: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thisisalelliott
– Leanne Elliott: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetleanne
– Email: hello@truthliesandwork.com
– Book a call: https://savvycal.com/meetleanne/chat
Mental health support
UK & ROI — Samaritans Call 116 123 or visit https://www.samaritans.org
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