337. How to Hire with A.I. (Without Getting It Wrong) LIVE! With Kate Young and Ben Hawkes

23:45there's a great by the way if anyone's listening and they're like and a small business and they're like well okay well i might not be able to go off and and find some set experts i've got the budget for that there is a great skill for claude and open ai called grill me by matt pocock i'll put a link in the show notes i use it all the time i invoke the skill and it basically keeps asking questions and it also does in a visual ask question tool things you can tap on things um it is really good so i'm sorry question is somebody who isn't quite as familiar with prompt engineering as you are. I'm not prompt engineering.

24:14I'm sorry, what? What do you mean? What do you tell it? You basically just load the skill up. You load the skill into Clawed. What do you mean load the skill? We don't need to go into that right now. No, but I've made people listening right now. You can go into Clawed desktop app and you can add a skill, which is basically a markdown file. And what this does is it's like a, God, I see Ben looking and both of them looking deep into my soul going, go on now, get yourself out of this one. Really what I wanted to say was there's a great skill. Claude's got it. It can grill you and get all the cool information out of you.

24:47This is why I don't say this. I say too much of these things. Lee, carry on. No, I think it's useful. You could probably just ask Claude as well. Can you explain that to you like how to do it? Can I just say install grill me by Matt Pocock? Sorry. Before we get back to the interview, I do need to say this because I know I'll be upset when we watch this back. Currently on LinkedIn, we're kind of squished in so you can't really see me in you. Aha. Is that something we can... Wow. We can play with the power of my stream deck. Let's see if we can do that. If I can fix that, it'll be 30 seconds. It will be.

25:18It will be. He'll shout at me afterwards if he knew that I knew. So anyway, sorry, Ben, Kate. It feels like from what you've said so far, using Genitive AI could be really useful for helping business owners and leaders with the process. So with the job analysis, with putting a job description together, with creating a clear list of knowledge, skills and abilities, creating standardized interview questions. I guess my next question is where does this benefit start to disappear?

25:53Kate Young:I think we both have the same answer. We could both in unison just say the decision, but I'll try and be a bit more nuanced. There are lots of products on the market that are used by big business, just call them AI hiring products for argument's sake, that will do your scoring and evaluation of an interview, of a CV, perhaps a work sample task. Now, those products, the better ones at least, have been robustly beaten up before they've gone anywhere near candidate data. They've been tested, they're monitored for fairness, they've been put through a whole bunch of studies that nerds like Ben and I will conduct.

26:33Kate Young:And in that case, using AI for scoring your interview or other kind of output can genuinely be a marked improvement if a whole list of conditions are met, which we have in PowerPoint if anyone's interested. However, as a small business owner, you do not have access to all of the many resources that are needed to make sure that AI can robustly score an interview output. I honestly wouldn't put it anywhere near it if you've not got the right framework that you've tested and monitored and beaten up at that point it's over to you it's your job to do the scoring as a human being there's not to say you can't ask it to suggest a format for how you might sort of do your ticking and crossing so you stick to a good process but I wouldn't have it anywhere near the scoring personally Ben yeah absolutely agree with that that it's better to ask the AI how do I select between these candidates than to ask the ai to select between the candidates because then it can give you a process give you some rigor and you make that that decision because as kate says you don't as a small business owner you don't have the benefit as of large organizations where you've had 10 000 100 000 candidates take uh an assessment that has been powered by ai and you've got all this great data to support the decision.

27:51You don't, but use it as a tool to help you make the right decision by it telling you how to do that. The other place that goes wrong is, we talk about human in the loop a lot with AI, and it's always important to have a human in the loop, having a person who is reviewing the output and the decisions before they go anywhere else. the danger is because ai creates content that looks great and is so fluent you might just take that output and go yep that's great and and send it out could be a job advert job description could be an email could be anything you've got to treat ai as a at best a a first draft machine you've got to review what it comes up with not just because it might hallucinate yeah i mean that still happens.

28:44But because you do still need to humanize this, it's getting increasingly the case that people can spot AI writing or AI content. And if someone is sending me something that is completely AI generated, I can see that they've had no role in editing it or reviewing it or condensing it, then that's a big turn off. Because it means that that cognitive effort has now been pushed to me to review this and figure out whether it's worthwhile or not. So always be that human in the loop. Don't just let the AI generate stuff and then you think, yeah, that's fine and send it out.

29:32Kate Young:Just one interesting gotcha, if you start to ask LLMs to make decisions between candidates is they're a bit like your overly opinionated relative at dinner party. They won't say, I don't know. They're literally told not to say, I don't know. The point is to answer your question. So an LLM will force a tie break between two CVs or two near identical candidates, and it will give you a spurious reason for doing so. It's a very good reason to stay away from that. Can I ask a quick question around policies? Because I think there's plenty of data out They're showing that businesses are using AI for recruitment.

30:09I suspect, like myself back in the day, they won't have any kind of policy for it whatsoever. And I know, I'm pretty sure you're going to tell me that that's a big risk, but is it just a, I should have one, or is it really actually going to bite me in the backside?

30:27It is a huge risk for lots of reasons. One is that you need some sort of quality control on how people are using AI and using the outputs of AI, because AI can produce nonsense. And you need to make sure that people are using it in the right way. You want to be able to explain to people how they can use it and how they're not allowed to use it. Lots of bigger organizations have almost like a traffic light model, that it's okay to use it for this. You can use it for this, but be very careful. And there are some things you cannot use it for. And that can be helpful. But the risks are enormous. When you've got two examples, so if you're using it, you're uploading CVs to chat GPT to select candidates, then there's a risk of a legal challenge there that you're having the AI make decisions for you.

31:27I'm not going to get into the details of the EU AI Act, which is coming into force next year. But AI-based decision-making, there's the potential for legal challenges against that. So making sure your employees are not using it in that way is important. The other thing is if you've got people using AI and they're uploading information, employee information, candidate information, Are you sure you know where that's going? Now, Claude, ChatGPT, Gemini, Google, those are probably pretty secure. But what about all these other models that people are using that are hosted who knows where? There's a data protection issue, and no organization wants to see their data ingested by an AI and then suddenly popping up in answers next year because some employee uploaded a bunch of PDFs they shouldn't have done, and that's got ingested into the knowledge base, the corpus of the AI.

32:35Those are just two of the risks. but at the very least having guidance where employees understand what they can and cannot use is is helpful um kate i don't know whether you want to jump in and talk about shadow ai use because i know that's something we've been looking at a lot recently um i mean i think it

32:54Kate Young:probably all comes under the same thing it's if you're going to have an ai policy it's to state what you can use it for but also what tools you can use so typically in in small businesses shadow AI use is going to be people going, oh, I don't like Copilot that I've been told I can use with my Microsoft suite or Gemini if they're Google workspace like us. So get their phone and they start putting things into Claude or whatever. And suddenly, because Claude's not within the organization's licensing and privacy controls, and you've got a case of shadow AI use where you've started to put your hiring data or whatever into a whole external AI and you're in breach of And I think because we've kind of this sort of work-life blurring we all have with our devices, our laptops and our mobiles and so on and so forth, it's really easy to quite innocently start tapping away on an external AI tool with some sensitive hiring data.

33:44Kate Young:And before you know it, you're very much in breach of any policy that might exist. Lee, can we just stop for a quick question we've got here from someone? It just says LinkedIn user. So that's potentially their full name. I think it's Robin Collins, if it's the same question I'm looking at. Are CDs defunct given all the reasons you're just speaking about? What was the name, sorry? Robin Collins. Robin. Okay. Guys, have you got any thoughts on that quickly before we move on? They're not quick thoughts. Fair enough. I did constrain that a little bit. Have you got any thoughts on that? Short answer, no.

34:21Long answer, no. But yes, they are still a useful indicator. They are a document that shows career history, education. But they've always been of limited use. But no, they're not entirely defunct yet.

34:45Kate Young:I spoke to a provider the other day. and if the market goes this way CVs could have a little bit of a renaissance and what they're producing is something that rather than taking kind of a traditional reference it takes the parts of a CV and auto contacts the line managers for verification before then passing that forward to a hiring manager because like I said the biggest issue of CV is it isn't polish if everyone's polished then it's it's irrelevant but it's verifying what's on there so i think if we start to move towards that sort of world with sort of pre-verified cvs they could they could become useful again interesting it's all cyclical isn't it lee yeah i i it it's so interesting isn't it i guess one one thing i'm thinking of some of the the entrepreneurs are so creative aren't they all trying to solution everything i'm i can imagine some business owners thinking well i'll just get people are sending videos then i know it won't be ai um even though you can probably do that now as well can't you somehow i don't know is solutions like that something that is a good thing or is that equally problematic in in other ways ben it's a whole new set of problems but it can be a solution for for some roles i won't get into detail about the video but yes video deep faking essentially is a challenge.

36:10So if we think that CVs have lost a lot of value because they can be polished with AI, wait till you hear about video interviews where you've got some very believable candidates who aren't actually candidates that are AI instead. So that's, I think creative solutions, yes, but those creative solutions do have to be grounded in what is it that we're looking for? We're not looking for, for many roles, we're not looking for audition tapes. We just want what evidence is there that this person can do the job. And that can be very different for different types of jobs. For some of them, you may want to look at the Canada's LinkedIn profiles and read their posts and get into more, see more information there about the projects that they've done.

37:01For others, it might be to prove their skills on some assessment, either remotely or in person. So it very much depends on the job. Now, video interviews are definitely a thing. And I don't think that the majority of candidates are yet AI-powered. But there's a risk there. So video interviews definitely still have their place. And interviews generally, because that gives you a chance then to probe what's on the CV, to ask those questions, to verify it, as well as to get further information. So ironically, it's an old school solution here is just to speak to the person.

37:47can we get onto a little bit of the a little bit of the of the strategies here so i'm guessing like what i'd love to hear is someone's listening to this and going great okay i now need to start using ai properly for hiring what are some not necessarily some simple or quick wins but what can i actually do like do you have like a list of things go off and do these things and things will be better for you

38:15Kate Young:i think you were working through this yesterday ben things things that you can you can do with with ai so you're you're thinking of what what people could do straight away is that what you're yeah it's really it's a bad question it's a badly worded question i think it's a good question it's probably something that i would if i was listening to this i'd be like cool this sounds brilliant but what i'll do tomorrow i need to go and find a new project manager so how do i what do i what's the first one two three four five things i do that's great well sign up for for um jacobt or gemini or claude or microsoft copilot whichever whichever you might um you might have and the simplest thing to do is say to ai hey i'm recruiting for a project manager what you suggest and it should and it probably will set out exactly how you can do that.

39:10Ask it to ask you the right questions to do this, or ask it how it can help. And if you ask it how it will help, it'll give you a list of these things that it can do. And you can say, okay, yeah, let's start off with a job description. How do we do that? And at no point is the AI making decisions or even necessarily drafting stuff for you it's helping you through that process it's giving you clarity about what what you need to do it's acting as a little hr or recruitment advisor in a in a box and so asking what it can do for you is a great place to start and then have it yeah draft the the job description ask it where should i post this job what are some great places to advertise this and the ai is pretty good at doing the research for you and suggesting sites where you might want to advertise this job or post it you want to post that job on on linkedin sure have the have the ai make a draft of that of that job of that job posting and literally all you need to do is okay well here's the here's the job can you write me a job posting for for linkedin and it'll do it it's like magic and then you can review that and um and edit that and then when you've got the you've got these applicants coming in and we know what it's like on linkedin you might have 100 200 applicants you could ask the eye out the ai what's the best way to review these not giving the ai all the cvs but asking it for what's the most efficient way of of of doing this um so it can act as a it can draft content for you, but it can act as an advisor as well.

40:54And that's extremely useful. It's almost like getting just-in-time training that, I need to do this. How do I do it? And the AI is there telling you how to do it. Not always perfect. Absolutely not always perfect. So you do need your own common sense, but it enables you to do things quickly without having to go to the internet and find out how do I write a job description if the AI is right there to to help you and to hold your hand so that's probably the the the one piece of advice I've had is ask the AI to ask you the right questions can I quickly add to that I would say also ask it to be

41:35Kate Young:adversarial because what I observe with small business owners hiring and they do it with busy people best of intent um but i mean quite often they're hiring their own image or they'll think lean lean was brilliant in that role how do i find another lean and they'll sort of fall into these small kind of traps and biases and so asking the ai and you can tell it say act like an occupational psychologist who's got 20 years of experience in assessment and selection and when i say something or go off piste or suggest a criteria that's not in line with best practice tell me um and by giving it that permission and telling it to sort of beat you up a little bit it you will it will catch the most common gotchas not quite like having a real ox psych there of course but it's basically free and it will get some of them okay you mentioned shadow ai i think was the phrase you used wasn't it yep so imagine that i'm a small business and i've got a google workspace paid account and i've got gemini as part of that can i automatically assume that if I upload something to there, it's staying in my organization.

42:39Kate Young:Yes, my understanding of the Google Workspace contract is that Gemini has the same access to your data as your Google Docs and your spreadsheets and so on and so forth. So it is completely gated within your organization. I would urge any listeners to check their own policies, but that is the basis of the Google Workspace agreement. Well, that'd be different if I uploaded it to ChatGPT or Claude because there's no such agreement in place? Yes. I mean, there's different tiers, and Ben knows a little bit more about this, but so with sort of Claude Pro, it mandates your data is not used for training, but there are still certain ways your data can leak back is the wrong term.

43:16Kate Young:So for example, if you give feedback on its outputs, for example, then some of that is passed back. So the absolute safest thing is to do whatever you've got locked within your organization, which is typically going to be Gemini or co-pilot although lots more organizations are getting flawed enterprise licenses now whatever they're called i i really enjoy that i feel like i was i was like making notes as you were both talking that we i kind of feel we've got five things that we're kind of saying to to business owners and leaders go for it and that's in terms of kind of a little job analysis putting together a job description sometimes advertising strategy and what the actual job advert looks like advice around cv screening like how to approach it not do it interview questions and helping you put those together some standardized interview questions and the last one you said Kate was supporting with with avoiding bias and making sure we're kind of adhering to best practice if they're the five things that you're like small businesses crack on go for it good for you have fun is there one or two you're like no absolutely not don't even think about it have it made the decision put any PII personally identifying information into an external AI go on Ben what's the third well I think yeah don't let it make decisions about candidates or or employees is important my my second one would be don't ever let the AI generated content don't never release that without reviewing it you've always got to be that human in the loop and the The third one would be don't believe the hype.

45:10There is a lot, you may have noticed, there is a lot of hype around AI. And if people are making claims about AI systems that can then find the best candidate for you out of a thousand of them and come up with a short list and it's bias-free, well, the old maxim, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. is something to bear in mind. So be wary of the hype around AI. If you're not treating it with enthusiasm and skepticism, then be concerned. That's what you should see from anyone involved in AI. Enthusiasm, but skepticism as well. Love that. Love that. Verify. Trust, but verify. We'll do the way around.

45:59Absolutely. It just feels like it's all summed up by you can't replace the human judgment element. in selection and assessment. Is that fair? I think that's very true. And perhaps the ironic impact of AI is that there's going to be more and more value placed on that human one-to-one interaction because that's the only authentic, genuine thing that we can be sure of. So I think candidates still want to be speaking to a human being. They understand, for the most part, that AI and technology is needed. But what do they value? It's not being selected by AI. What they value is contact with a real human.

46:48And so absolutely, you're right that that human touch is still very much and needs to be part of the process. brilliant um i'm noticing we're having more more people join us now which is is lovely welcome and if you do have a question or comment do leave it in the comments we will we will get to it okay i want to ask you about when i first started hearing about ai being used in in recruitment i remember reading something and i can't remember where but it was something like the concern was because the majority of recruitment selection assessment processes are already biased because there's lots of people not doing things by best practice.

47:28And if we're just putting all of this into LLMs and it's learning from us, then inherently AI is going to be biased. Is that massively oversimplified? Is there any evidence of that? What's happening there?

47:42Kate Young:That is probably an oversimplification, yes. So hiring has always been full of bias, absolutely. You know, we know that certain groups of people have always got the best jobs over the years. And those, you know, typically might be people who identify as white, are privately educated, so on and so forth. Those people enjoy advantages on the jobs market through no fault of their own. We know that there's really well-documented biases in hiring. You know, the affiliation bias when you spot something in someone else that reminds you of them. Same school, same hobby, whatever, same bag. It doesn't matter.

48:20Kate Young:But that triggers a very kind of warm tribal feeling in us and encourages us to make a positive evaluation of that person on a really unconscious level. Now, AI on the face of it doesn't suffer from those biases per se because we've given it a set of criteria and it should, in theory, score against those criteria. But actually, what we're finding more and more is it's got its own different set of biases. So, for example, it does suffer from affiliation bias. So if you have a CV and you've made that CV with ChatGPT and it's being scored by ChatGPT, ChatGPT will prefer the ChatGPT CV over the Claude or the Gemini or the CoPilot CV, which is kind of nuts when you think about it.

49:04Kate Young:But there's quite a well-documented study that found that relatively recently. And the other thing is LLMs typically prefer fluency, polish and people who talk more. and those are the same people who would have been traditionally rewarded in interviews they're more you know they speak better they perhaps speak the queen's english they're grammatically correct they're confident they talk more so we're seeing some of those same biases but manifesting in in really different ways but i guess the hopeful point in all of this is broadly speaking when an ai tool is biased it's biased in a relatively consistent way so humans are quite inconsistent Sometimes we're biased because we're hungry or we're cross or it's the end of the day and we're cognitively overloaded.

49:47Kate Young:There's loads of reasons for us to be inconsistent. If you look at a bunch of data from an AI hiring system, you can generally find and capture that bias and think about what you're going to do with it. Do you adjust your prompts and your guardrails? So my kind of conclusion is if people are on it, if people are monitoring and checking and thinking, then we can kind of grab those biases and code them out over time. But it requires a lot of hard work. And otherwise, we will, as I kind of went through, we'll just sort of encode a different set of biases. Can I ask, which is kind of a follow-on from that?

50:22So now, it might be a bit of a revelation, I think, for some people. It certainly was for me when I first heard you say this, Kate, was that we think AI has got biases, but actually humans have also got biases. So you're going, cool, okay, now I understand that, but how do I actually choose a tool which has got the least amount of bias? How do I, you've said to me all the options I've got here and I'm like, cool, I understand all this, but I just want something practical. Like, tell us a bit about how you choose a tool when you're looking at these ads. You say most things look too good to be true.

50:51Yes, most of them do and most of them are. But what is actually something we can trust as a business owner?

50:59Kate Young:I think as a small business owner, it's hard because realistically, an AI tool that's been properly audited for bias. So that can be an external audit run by an external company if you're looking for a quality sign, or it could be the AI provider themselves has done that analysis to how it performs with different groups, you know, do men and women score equally, and they're willing to share it with you. Typically, as a small business owner, you're unlikely to have the budget to access that kind of robust tool. AI hiring tools are designed to be bought by big businesses. So I think then we come really back to Ben's excellent advice on small businesses and how to use it to take you through a very structured process which doesn't really answer your question but I think that's probably the answer for small businesses.

51:45I think that's a great thing and maybe you can build on this Ben but I'm not sure that many business owners would know that actually there are kind of independent studies happening to check kind of the accuracy reliability bias of these AI tools so if an organization either doesn't have this or isn't willing to share that? Is that a fairly big red flag, Ben? Yes, so that transparency is really important. So if you're speaking to any vendor, if they can explain what's happening under the hood, under the bonnet of their tool, that's great. If they're being very protective, saying, oh, this is patented technology, we can't explain it, or we can't disclose it, then that's a concern.

52:35So if they can't explain how it works to you, there might be various reasons for that, then I'll tend to want to walk away. Another sign is there's a lot of startups out there that have created assessment or HR technology tools in general. and what i'd be looking for from a vendor is what's their what's their pedigree and also who's involved in it if it's a bunch of data scientists no offense to data scientists they'll have a a very competent very analytical tool but without um hr expertise or occupational or industrial organizational psychology then are they sure the right decisions are are being made so in looking at vendors, I'd be looking at who's been involved in building these systems.

53:31What's the track record? Also looking at what are the client list as well to give you some reassurance. I think you can de-risk choosing a new vendor by not picking one that has just launched in the last couple of months. I mean, there's a case to use those sometimes, but to use more established ones with a client list, ones who are willing to provide a technical manual for the assessment, or even know what a technical manual needs to include from an occupational psychologist point of view. Those are the things I'd be looking for, is their willingness to be open, their ability to explain what's happening, and they're not talking about AI mumbo-jumbo, but instead are understanding what their product does and understanding the need of you as a potential client to ask those questions.

54:32Kate Young:And if you do get your hands on a technical manual, if it's really, really boring with pages and pages of numbers, it's probably good. A technical manual doesn't have pretty pictures in it and nice stories about it and photos of happy users. It's got pages of stats in it. quick quick service evaluation and i think that's actually good advice for for a business leader choosing any kind of of tool or intervention whether it be around employee engagement or well-being or or recruitment yeah people should be transparent about the process and the science and the data that sits sits behind you have beef with with some very large organizations in the engagement world but that's just me one thing i will say sorry just one thing i will say is that the ai and selecting products selecting vendors is very very complicated um and it's okay to as a small business owner to ask for help from a peer or someone you know who does understand it because this is extremely complicated i wouldn't expect most people to be able to ask the right questions of vendors and if that's the case try and find someone who can help you do that not doing it on your on your own there is a lot of good expertise out there and probably friends colleagues will have some of that that expertise so yeah use lean on others and use their expertise okay ben let's think about like business is tough as it is your small business so is this something that we are as business owners generally spending money on in the recruitment process that we could stop spending money on and start diverting that money to some kind of ai solution i put you properly on the spot the biggest um source of wasted money i see in hiring processes is endless interviews so typically a small business hasn't bought a psychometric or they've one of the ones that shall not be named.

56:39Kate Young:And there instead they're doing an interview, so you meet the hiring manager, you meet their manager, and then maybe you meet the CEO if it's kind of a 100-person business for argument's sake. And an interview is expensive. It's expensive. You're taking someone out of their day job to meet someone, evaluate. Maybe you're doing 10 interviews per role, and it's literally the time is money piece. So instead, the solution there, rather than doing multiple interviews that probably aren't really adding much, is to make sure you're doing one or two that are really good in the first place. And the way to make them really good is that job analysis, that structured process, and to follow the principles from the off.

57:15Kate Young:And then when you make that repeatable, you make that habit in your small business, you've genuinely got an efficient hiring process. Nice. Any other thoughts? I don't have much to add to that because, yeah, that interview cycle, I've seen companies that have put candidates through over a dozen interviews for a role and you've you've got to have some diminishing returns after interview five or six side of thought so use the ai to help you plan that interview sonical what should you be asking for at this interview or or that interview and given the job description the ai will will help you come up with it with an efficient process so give a line on interviews and just spending it's it's you want to be respectful of the candidate's time as well so you want to make it efficient you want every part of that contact you have with the candidate to be useful as as optimal as as possible so you owe it to the candidate and for your for your own time to to make that process efficient and hey i can help you do that not by taking over the process by helping you plan it this is great this is great lee we're getting to the top of the hour is there any other question you think one last question needs to be asked i think you've given so many grateful hints and tips genuinely brilliant advice for for people listening so i i guess my question is if there is just one thing you wanted a really rushed busy under pressure leader business owner listening just one takeaway you wanted them to to really cling to to to make hiring or recruitment better for everybody, especially that£14 ,000 back in the business of a cost of a bad hire?

59:03What's the one tip that would kind of be your go-to? Kate, can I start with you?

59:10Kate Young:This is going to sound really basic and repetitive. So I have terrible hedging languages, which, by the way, LLMs hate. Don't put hedging language if you're applying, hate it. But I think it's defining what you actually need the person to do in the job because it's the part that gets skipped most often in small businesses because people think they instinctively know and they truly, truly don't. Beautiful. Ben? And for me, ironically, in a discussion about AI, my one thing would be be human. And that means being the person who reviews the AI draft and make sure that it's what you want, not what the AI is generating.

59:50Be human in the sense of having contact with candidates because they value that as well. So to not lose sight, despite all these shiny things and the bells and whistles AI give us, that, yeah, simply to be human. Amazing. Thank you both so much. I know people listening will want to learn more about you, more about your work. Where's the best place for them to go?

1:00:16Kate Young:www.thehiringsciencestudio.com or either of our LinkedIn's or the Hiring Science Studio page. And do please go ahead, add us, reach out. We talk to small businesses and AI startups all the time. We always learn something from you. Brilliant. Thank you. Well, if you're watching back on LinkedIn, obviously you'll see Kate and Ben tagged in the event. If you are listening on the regular audio podcast, all the links will be in the show notes. Kate, Ben, thank you so much. It's been genuinely really, really interesting and helpful. If people do have questions afterwards, as Kate said, they're happy to be contacted.

1:00:52did you can leave a comment um on spotify if that's where you listen to podcasts you can leave it on the linkedin event or you can also access their profiles and and get in touch directly al any final thoughts before we we leave these lovely lovely people no i really enjoyed this i'm i'm a massive fan of ai as you know but also it's really interesting because the end balances me out and goes have you thought about this side of it and you've just given me another thing to think about and i did love the fact that both of you went yeah human in the loop and that seemed to be the most important four words you said over the whole thing was just don't don't just get clawed vibe code vibe code you're at your pretty you're at your hiring just gets you know keep a human in the loop so that was great so thank you so so much for your time thank you very much amazing everyone thank you so so much we will be back next tuesday with another occupational psychologist we can't get enough of them we're back with nicole williams she'll be joining us um on our on our news roundup and leading our Truth or Lies to look out for that and our Thursday episodes continue with incredible guests.

1:01:56We've got such a great lineup. Al and I actually sat this morning and worked out our entire schedule through till January the 7th. That's how committed we are to bring you great stuff. So do definitely subscribe. Follow Truth or Lies and Work on Instagram. Come find us on Instagram. You can actually. You can. I don't promote that very much. And I'm on LinkedIn. I might get like shadow banned on LinkedIn now. I'm actually the competitor. But anyway, yeah, follow, subscribe. we love it when you get in touch as well so yeah I think that's it we'll see you next week see you later bye bye

1:02:28that's it for this one thank you so much for listening if you would like to connect with any of our panelists you'll find all of their details in the show notes if you'd like to be a future guest on one of our LinkedIn lives we would love to hear from you drop us an email at podcast at truthliesandwork.com and if you enjoyed this please do leave us a review it genuinely helps more people find the show see you soon