LIVE! Are we entering the 'Great Career Reset?', with Che Ugwuala, Kelly Garthwaite and Erica Breuer

19:08Che Ugwuala:kelly erica i think in terms of purpose and when we talk about purpose in psychology we talk about meaningful work and meaningful work is something that we know is a big predictor of employee engagement and being engaged in our work is essentially the opposite psychological state of burnout and we know that employee engagement is also a big particular of performance so as you were saying and I think it was Kelly that meaningful work is also really good for business and it's really good for organizational life but I worry sometimes do we think does anyone think we've over romanticized work

19:44Erica Breuer:so hold that thought does anyone think we've over romanticized work but Che you were in the middle of the best points to go on please oh my god Was that me? Did I cut off or did everyone else? You disappeared. Oh man, I don't know. It looks like it lost connection. And I think I've kind of lost my train of thought, but I think where I was going with it was I'm grateful for the work that I have at Google because it does give me the opportunity for me to allow me to lean into my purpose. And I think that was something that I really found to be really clear this past year, like last year, which was being able to share my struggles, my journey, particularly with the mental health, with a community like LinkedIn, with the people that I'm being able to connect with.

20:41Erica Breuer:And that has probably been the most therapeutic thing that has ever happened for me and my sense of self and sort of rebuilding myself. but I also felt like I wouldn't have had maybe the courage to do that without having the security that I have at Google right now. But then on the flip side, I feel like I'm also trying to create security for myself outside of Google too. So it's definitely multifaceted or multidimensional really but um i i also look at my my role there as an opportunity for me to be able to also experience the purpose that i want to be able to bring to the world outside of work fabulous yeah and what was the question i forgot what the question was now that the second we're

21:28Che Ugwuala:about to 20 exactly i mean you yeah you you've said great that beautifully che as i was saying you know there's this we know that that meaningful work is actually really good for organizational life and organizational performance as well and it sounds as though a group with definitely organization that is is fostering that that sense of meaning and purpose in your work while giving you did you say that kind of freedom and agency to to find it in other communities i guess my concern is with social media and you know the the the perception of millennials in and jen's and i'm i'm millennial and i've been caught entitled before for wanting purpose in my work have we over romanticize it though have we gone too far are our expectations too high what do you think

22:13Kelly Garthwaite:yeah sometimes i just want to clock in and clock out of work like sometimes i like i just assisted a friend of mine on a cookbook shoot last week and i was like this is great i don't have to think about anything else after this i am literally going and just helping and leaving and there's no additional connection to it whatsoever and there's something really empowering about just being able to go and do the thing and feel like you've accomplished something for the day and you're getting paid in return for it. And then, so I think that that's one facet. And I think that that's also a great trajectory for a lot of people to exist that way all the time.

22:54Kelly Garthwaite:They just want to clock in and clock out, um, and then go and mountain bike or ice skate or whatever on the other side of it. Um, I think it's based on personality, honestly, There are certain people who have their whole world intertwined with their work and what they do. And in that case, it is important to find that balance between what I'm doing is a very integral part of who I am and how I'm moving through the world. And so in that instance, I do think it's not over romanticized. fantasized. But I think that it has gotten to a point where we talk about finding purpose in our work a lot more than we probably used to.

23:50Che Ugwuala:That push and pull is really hard, isn't it? Of having that meaning in our work, having the financial security. And as you were saying, Erica, that's something that hasn't always been reflected in the salaries when we went into into work or bright eyed and bushy tailed with our idea of having purpose and financial security do you think there's an expectation for some organizations that your identity is is your work is that organization and and I guess what do those expectations and demands put on on us as individuals in terms of coping with with that I think it's really difficult to cope with that when most of the pathways, at least in this moment, it feels like that sense of stability is like a luxury good.

24:41Che Ugwuala:It's not just something that comes with signing on the dotted line and showing up and doing your job. So those expectations in terms of identity become even bigger because you're being asked to not find purpose anywhere else. You're supposed to focus on this one thing, sometimes more than eight hours a day. So if it's not, if the purpose isn't happening there and my sleeping hours in between getting up, showering and driving back into the office, I don't have time for it there. Why am I waking up every day? I think that's the situation it creates where at least if there was a little bit of stability outside of those working hours.

25:27Che Ugwuala:I mean, I think about my grandfather again. He was a purchasing manager at a cast iron company that made the Monopoly pieces. And he had time to customize like giant aquariums and create different scenes and do correspondence courses and ships in a bottle. And they went to a cottage during the summer, that stability piece, he didn't have to romanticize anything because the romance happened outside of nine to five.

26:00Erica Breuer:Can I pile onto that or Kelly, where are you going to?

26:04Kelly Garthwaite:No, you go. And then maybe I'll have another idea on top of it.

26:07Erica Breuer:Okay. I mean, I feel like I know this all too clear. And I think Google does a great job of instilling their culture, their values amongst their employees. And, you know, I think for a long time, like I just looked at myself as like, I'm Che and I am a Googler. And that was kind of it full stop. I mean, of course, there are other aspects of my life, but I've been at Google now for about 10 years. And, you know, it was really like a large part of my identity. Like a lot of my friends are Googlers. Like, it's just, it's just very interwoven into my life. And, you know, when we experienced the mass layoffs, I think across tech in 2023, that was a massive like wake up call for me personally, where, you know, I realized that in all intents and purposes, like I am just a number out of 180 ,000 employees that work for the organization.

27:16Erica Breuer:and I had to sort of reevaluate where I saw myself in all of this. And it was honestly the biggest catalyst for me to sort of really find ways to disassociate, not disassociate myself, but like find worth in my own value that wasn't tied to my job, to my title, to the company that I worked for. and you know that has been an evolution of mine that i've been on a journey on now for the past few years and i think linkedin has also just been a really amazing catalyst for that for me where you know i can show up i can talk about google to an extent but a large part of what people are getting like you're getting me and all the different dimensions and that i show up in the world um and so i just wanted to i just wanted to add that in there Billion Dollar Moves, hosted by Sarah Chen Spellings, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination of business professionals.

28:17Che Ugwuala:Join venture capitalist and strategist Sarah Chen Spellings as she asks the hard questions and learns through the triumphs, failures, and hard lessons of the creme de la creme, so you too can make billion dollar moves in venture, in business, and in life.

28:30Erica Breuer:Maybe start with episode 124, where you're going to hear how industry giants from Canva to YouTube define leadership.

28:36Che Ugwuala:Listen to Billion Dollar Moves wherever you get your podcasts.

28:47Che Ugwuala:No, absolutely. It's such a wake-up call, isn't it? Things like this, whether it be the pandemic or layoffs. Kelly, how would you build on what Erica and Che have been saying?

29:01Kelly Garthwaite:first and foremost i love erica talking about her grandfather and the things he was doing outside of work i was like ships in a bottle i want to do that you know like that sounds so cute and sweet and going to a cottage for the summer um i think the thing that came up for me was the monetary component and how everything has gotten more expensive and how people are having to do they're doing their regular job and then they're also doing a side hustle sometimes not because they want to, but because they need to. And also salaries have been going down in the last couple of years. There was that buildup for, it was like pre-pandemic where people were job jumping every couple of years and they were able to get like a 15 to 20 % raise from one job to another.

29:48Kelly Garthwaite:And that kind of stopped. I think that there's probably like one or 2 % of people who can still do something like that, but it doesn't, it's a rarity. Um, and so people's lifestyles kind of matched whatever money they were making. And so at that point you get caught where you have to keep moving forward, making more money. I've got to keep jumping up this ladder. And I think one of the bigger conversations that we were touching on when we met before for this live was that we can't keep going in the same direction that we have been if life and society is not continuing to move in that direction.

30:36Kelly Garthwaite:So that's where we have to like, so I've been doing a lot of reevaluation within my own life of like, can I be less of a consumer? Can I spend less? Where do I want to be putting my money? What businesses do I want to be supporting? And so that's been a big pullback for me is like, do I need all of these things that I felt like I needed that society is telling me that I must have? And so that's kind of becoming more of my identity too, is this reevaluation of like what really matters to me as far as like what my happiness looks like

31:13Erica Breuer:just i've got a quick question but george anything any comments or questions that you

31:18Kelly Garthwaite:really interesting statements and impactful ideas and personal perspectives about purpose and how that's enabled them to create impact and we've got an interesting one about um layoffs i think a lot of modern anxiety comes from working a nine till five job where the norm is now regular layoffs um multiple times a year um and there's also a lot to do with um purpose

31:47Che Ugwuala:in terms of recruitment and um the romanticizing coming from employers who want you to have purpose-driven roles.

31:58Erica Breuer:Fabulous.

31:59Che Ugwuala:Interesting, yeah.

32:00Erica Breuer:I have a quick question. And I know we are, we are running flight, we're flying through this time here, but quick question. I think, is it OpenAI, Sam Altman, who's talking, or Altman, who's talking about universal basic income where we all just, AI does all the stuff and we just earn an amount so we can go and put ships in bottles and, you know, make Monopoly pieces. Out of interest, do you, each of you, do you think that would work? Would that be, is that the Nirvana or is that just where madness lies?

32:30Erica Breuer:Do you want me to name you so you don't interrupt each other? I mean, I think that there is some truth to that. You know, I do think that that feels a little bit dystopian, though, in the sense. But listen, I don't think any of us have a crystal ball to know what the next five, 10 plus years are going to look like. But I do know that, um, AI is here and, you know, we sort of like opened up Pandora's box and the way that capitalism works, you know, everyone's on the search for the next best thing. Um, and so I do think that there will come a point where, um, AI can do a large part of what, you know, um, all the folks in the room here can potentially do.

33:24Erica Breuer:And so I think as a society, we'll have to sort of rethink and reevaluate like, what does it mean to be a human? Like, what does it mean to have a job? And, you know, I think that does give the opportunity for a sense of like a security blanket, like universal income, where it does give people the opportunity to be able to express their passions because we've created a world in which, you know, machines can do the other things, maybe the things that we don't like to do, right? But that's just my take on it. I do think that there's something there, but I mean, it's so hard to tell. Erika, dystopia or utopia?

34:10Che Ugwuala:I think it's, I don't think it's an either or. I don't think we should wait for machines in order to introduce that sort of stability. And I think Jay called it a security blanket. I don't think people should always feel like they're on the edge. There should be a cushion there. We should be making sure people are taken care of so that they can make the smartest decisions possible about work and about how they're spending their time.

34:38Erica Breuer:Excellent. And Kelly, you could make those ships in bottles.

34:42Kelly Garthwaite:Yeah, I am going to start doing that. No, I don't know. Maybe I will. Um, I guess I'm kind of in that middle ground as well, where I'm doing a lot of observing. I'm sitting back and waiting and seeing kind of what happens before I adopt something full, like wholeheartedly. Um, because I really don't know what direction it's going to go in. And I think as long as people have their basic needs met, then it won't be super dystopian. But the concern is if AI were to take over a lot of jobs and then humans are not put in to replace anything, then that's going to cause a lot of concern. so I would like for certain things to be automated um but I also don't want to completely lose my ability to critical thinking or um process I think process is so important to be able to do yourself

35:54Che Ugwuala:and it pulls in this whole it's a philosophical conversation as well isn't it you know it's it's having purpose in our work and what is the purpose of work and if we're not working you know as we've as we've known what does that then look like in this new world with with yeah universal credit it's yeah it's it's an interesting one I remember talking to somebody about it on a podcast who asked me about it and I was like I kind of see personality coming into here a bit so if we look at like the personality of entrepreneurs and the personality of criminals they're not that different more difference is context so I kind of see it maybe even going down some kind of you know route like that people will want to be creative and if they don't have that outlet they will find it um but yeah who knows maybe we'll come back in 10 years time and see what type of world we're living in I want to get into some of the practical sides of this as as well because I know some of the people that are attending may well be thinking in a similar way rethinking their career wanting a reset wanting to to change it up a little bit kelly i want to come to you first because you went from you know corporate uh life to being a founder a content creator for anyone thinking about making that type of career transition what do you think people might underestimate about that

37:12Kelly Garthwaite:process the amount of internal growth that you're going to go through um i've had to contend with a lot of negative thought trains and a lot of things that required a lot of meditation and recalibrating, kind of questioning myself. When you go from having a really big brand attached to your name to not having it, it is harder to get people to care about what you're saying. So I think it's really being patient with yourself and patient with the process. And I would also say if you are leaping into something that you're not, like you don't have another like thing set up where you're going to another job or something where you know you have a paycheck, save a lot more money than you think you need.

37:59Kelly Garthwaite:Because that part has been, I've been, I have felt fortunate to have the circumstance that I'm in, but a lot of that is, was, was lucky in a lot of ways. So I had saved money, but it wouldn't have been enough for the process that I've gone through and in the last two years um so that's a that is a big takeaway logistically speaking that's a very

38:27Che Ugwuala:important part of it i love how that's that feels like it's two sides of the same coin there's a lot of introspection reflection needed but there's also you know the practicalities of all this transition again we romanticize it a bit can't we but it's as you say it's having that runway is is yeah it's important Erica how about you because you're you're now as well building work in a way that that that suits what you want to do what your ambitions are what your purpose is is there anything that's been harder than you expected it's been as hard as I expected I don't know I feel like a lot of folks who are making a change right now whether it's to work for themselves, something, you know, to do something else.

39:15Che Ugwuala:They're not just changing roles. They're actually facing like the dilemma of creating or seeking an opportunity that hasn't existed before. Before you could, if you wanted the new job, you would change the job and maybe get some new skills so that you could move forward or keep the same skills, but just it was a different company. There were just two variables you were working with. And now we're all, whether or not we're admitting it solving for an x that we don't even know what it looks or feels like and that's a that's it's a lot it is as hard as i'm a creative so i do that all the time but for some people who maybe that isn't their day-to-day function that's a lot that's heavy when you're maybe an accountant and you're used to really certainty and clear answers that's not what that process is and I just want to give everybody who's trying to do it right now a lot of credit we are all creating a new future right now whether or not we signed up to do that yeah I think there's it feels like a lot of the minute that I didn't sign up for to be honest here we are Tay how about you said you went through this kind of you know this re-evaluation processes as well when we saw what what happened in the tech industry in 2023 what what have you learned is anything that maybe surprised you as you were going through that re-evaluation um yeah i think for me um you know when i talked about like my identity my identity being so tied up to the company i worked for and my title i think for a lot of us like we kind of grew up

40:52Erica Breuer:with this idea that um you know you need to sort of like rise to the top of the you know to the top of the leadership chain. And, you know, that's what success looks like for you in corporate. And I definitely was all in. I was all about that hustle culture of trying to get promoted. Like, that was literally like, you know, every few years, like, what do I need to do to get to the next title? And in many ways, like, I realized, like, I was just losing out on the opportunity to enjoy my experiences at work because I was just so focused on trying to sort of get to the next level. And then finally, I got to that level, right?

41:37Erica Breuer:I got to the level of being able to have a team at Google, which is quite frankly, really hard to do. A lot of Googlers are individual contributors. And so once you become a manager, like the stakes are that much higher. And, you I looked around and I was just like, I don't think this is what I want to be doing at all. And I think that took a lot of self-reflection. That took a lot of just like trying to understand like what is actually bringing me joy right now. And right now the work that I'm doing isn't doing that for me. and so I had to have the courage to have those open and honest conversations with my leaders around I know that this is the path that you wanted me to be on and that was the path that I thought I wanted to be on but actually I think I can provide much more impact doing something different I can provide much more impact on being an individual contributor both in the work that I'm doing but then also how I show up outside of work as well.

42:49Erica Breuer:Being able to have that mental headspace to be more leaned in as a dad or to be able to build my personal brand outside of work as well and to have community with friends. And so that's sort of like a lot of where my reevaluation went to, especially after the mass layoffs and sort of trying to really optimize for for joy for myself i'm really glad that you took us there because that's exactly where i

43:20Che Ugwuala:wanted to go next is in terms of of the leaders roles within organizations if you know people in your team are quietly questioning their careers what responsibility do you think leaders have in in that moment what was your experience of of you sharing that moment with with your leaders Yeah. I was thankful that I got a lot of support and a lot of understanding around what type of future I wanted to create for myself.

43:54Erica Breuer:and that may not always be the case for everyone, but at that time I felt really safe psychologically to be able to share where I was at in my life and what I felt like I needed to be able to thrive to be the best version of myself and to give the best version of myself to not only the company, but also just all the other folks in my life too. and so that is also just like how I tend to operate as well like I really do tend to operate with the sense of empathy and creating a safe space you know I'm not I'm not a people manager anymore but like I still create that for the folks that are around me where they can feel comfortable coming to me about things whether it be big or small and so I definitely encourage leaders to lean into that because there's just so much stuff that's happening in the world, not only just in our day-to-day.

44:53Erica Breuer:And I think we really need compassionate leaders that can truly understand where their employees are coming from and really set that example for them. Kelly, I saw you nodding there vigorously. Obviously, you agree. But both you and Kelly Kelly and Erica, I have a question. What happens if the leader doesn't enjoy their job? If they're getting so much pressure as well, then how do you manage all of that pressure of like, well, I'm not, you know, this job's difficult for me and I'm going to have to try and make work brilliant for all the people I work with. Anyone, you got any experience of that?

45:25Erica Breuer:Any thoughts on that?

45:30Kelly Garthwaite:Well, I just, I was nodding furiously because I'm like, thank you for bringing up empathy and compassion because that is something that is so overlooked because it's not data points. It's not tangible. But if you are a good manager or you can look out for your team, obviously that means you're putting on your own oxygen mask first. But if you can look out for your team, you can change someone's life, honestly, being a good manager. And it's so important to be able to come with those skills. And so I'm glad, I'm so glad that you brought that up. I was like, yes, yes, we need to be having more conversations around that part too.

46:08Kelly Garthwaite:So what you're saying, Al, is basically if you're not in a good place yourself as a manager, how are you going to be able to support your team? I actually kind of went through something similar to that when I was at Red Bull. I had a couple of contractors who were working with me. And in California, the way that it works is there's an 18 month long contract. And then after someone hits their 18 months, they have to leave for three months and then come back. It's a terrible system. But I had one of my contractors leave and then they didn't bring back a second contractor. And so I was going backwards and doing things that I had been doing.

46:48Kelly Garthwaite:I was higher level and delegating. And then I ended up going back and doing like contracts and administrative work and all that stuff. And so I was feeling really frustrated for myself, but I tried to compartmentalize. I tried to say, okay, this person who's working with me is not me. And what can I do if I am in a situation, like, I remember what it was like to be that contractor. I think it's a matter of empathy. It's tapping back into things that you remember about your own experience and doing the opposite of something that was negative for you. And that's the way that I was supporting in that circumstance.

47:32Erica Breuer:Interesting. Erica, any thoughts?

47:34Che Ugwuala:I think we might be in a moment where people need to stop looking up for the answers and really start looking to each other. And with that, like what Jay's described, that leader might not even need to lead in that moment, but just hold the group together and make it safe for them to start imagining what else could be, which is a really, again, a really risky thing to put new ideas out there and to feel safe doing it. I think that's what leaders need to do because if employers want to solve all the problems, they would have done that by now. That's just not the moment we're in. I want to I want to ask you another question about that Erica because we've we've talked about uncertainty and you've mentioned uncertainty quite a lot as well and every day there seems to be something else for us to to be worried about and destabilize what our lives and work can look like you mentioned there you know looking around looking looking to colleagues do you think there is an expectation on leaders to have the answers and you think that's where we're we're falling down a little bit or leaders are putting as much pressure on themselves by thinking they need to to have the answers in supporting people in times of uncertainty yeah we're we're trained to think that way from day one there's a leader in the classroom telling us how things work that the structure has always been there and it's really hard to retrain yourself to feel like you can be a leader in those groups, in those conversations, and just start asking questions of those around you.

49:17Che Ugwuala:I think we opened this conversation, I mean, not today, but when we were emailing about it, like, what do we want this to be? How could it be? And we're afraid, everyone's afraid to say, I'm figuring it out right now. But if we were talking about it together, It would take the pressure. It would retrain that expectation. It would do so many of the things that we're talking about here now. And I guess opening up to Kelly and Che, is there anything you've seen leaders do in moments of uncertainty that you're like, please stop, that's not helping? Che, do you have one?

49:55Erica Breuer:Oh, I was going to go someplace totally different.

50:01Erica Breuer:i thought it was gonna be like please yes we want more of that open and open a new door yeah if that is that okay of course um well i mean just to build on what erica was saying i feel like vulnerability um is something that is just so important as a leader and i think that that's just like it's it's incredibly hard to do um and i and i get that but i think creating a space where you just acknowledge that like listen i don't have all the answers for for any of this like we're in unprecedented times right now um but what i do have is um the ability to be compassionate to to to like you have my ear like we can collaborate we can figure what this looks like together.

50:57Erica Breuer:I think that's what we need more of is leaders who are willing to be vulnerable, who are willing to acknowledge where they have their gaps and allowing space and opportunities for people within your team to help, help try to bridge that if needed. And I think that to me, that goes a long way.

51:20Kelly Garthwaite:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, just community aspect in general, Like within work and beyond work, that is the way that we're all going to be able to find commonalities and common ground and support each other. Just even in like micro communities, but within work, no one knows everything. No one knows what they're doing at this point. We're all navigating without a GPS right now. and so I think there's a there's a strength in being able to say being vulnerable saying something like I I have no idea how to navigate this so let's let's do it together let's figure out how I can lift if you're the manager I can lift you up and we can come together to bring our strengths into a place that that moves us forward i want to gauge your thoughts on how temporary or permanent this this is in terms of of us

52:20Che Ugwuala:re-evaluating and rethinking what work means to us how we want to sit in in our lives it's been a heck of a five years there's been as you say the global pandemic there's wars there's cost of living crisis it's one thing after another is all of this just a temporary reaction to all of that when things stabilize will this re-evaluation stop or slow down or do you think it really is the signs of a deeper shift in how people are thinking about their careers erica if i could start with you it's not going to slow down for me and i've chosen that path I do think as a student of history, you know, you've got the pendulum.

53:05Che Ugwuala:It will swing back to a place where it doesn't feel as chaotic. But I do think even when we're on the other end of that swing, what we think of as stable, we've really got to divorce ourselves from the idea of stable that we grew up with. So even that moment will feel like another reset for folks. Yeah.

53:32Erica Breuer:okay i don't know if you want to go i don't know i was like plus one to what erica just said i don't know if i can i don't know if i can add more to that that was really well said

53:46Che Ugwuala:well how about you in terms of chain and kelly erica said you know her shift is gonna gonna continue do you see it a similar similar thing um i would agree with that um i think

53:58Erica Breuer:at least for me personally, I've realized I'm at a fundamental shift in my life. I'm going to be 40 next month. Yeah, dirty 40. I definitely thought I had this vision of what 40 was going to look like maybe 20 years ago. Now approaching that, it feels so different. I am a different version of myself. And what I want is completely different than what I wanted 20 years ago. And the world around me has obviously changed from what it was 20 years ago as well. And so there is this influencer or contact creator on LinkedIn. Her name is Jade Powell. I'm going to shout her out. But I love the energy that she brings to the platform.

54:49Erica Breuer:And her North Star that she says is, her KPI that she's optimizing towards is joy. And that is mine. And that's what I'm optimizing my life against. And it's sort of going to be that consistent driver for me, no matter what else is happening around in the world. I'm going to be moving myself forward. I'm moving myself forward under the North Star of just like, how do I optimize more joy in my life? And that's really it.

55:24Che Ugwuala:I love that. More joy.

55:28Kelly Garthwaite:Yeah, I'm on that train too, Che. I actually, when I turned 40, and I'm like, how old am I now? 42. When I turned 40, I used to lose track after a while. That is when my husband and I had the big talk. It was actually the weekend of my 40th birthday. We had the big talk about, do you want to think about leaving your job? And so six months after that, I left Red Bull. and I yeah I just feel like it's undeniable at this point for us to have to figure out how to root ourselves somehow like if everything around us feels chaotic and the ground is constantly moving like we have to go and play in the dirt and touch grass and go out for walks with our dogs and do things, play with your kid, like do things that make you feel purposeful beyond work.

56:21Kelly Garthwaite:Here we go, all the way back around to the beginning of the conversation. And I love that you shouted out Jade because she's one of my favorite creators on LinkedIn as well. But yeah, the joy component is so integral to everything right now. And it's something that you can choose to exist in and it's something that no matter what no one can take away from you if you decide that you

56:48Erica Breuer:don't want them to take it from you kelly can i ask you just those like maybe the three or four months after you made the decision you're going to leave red bull and then the six months when you did leave if someone's in the same situation they're going yeah look i'm gonna leave my job i'm gonna pull the trigger i'm leaving it what what does it feel like and to actually go through that decision and actually wake up on that day and go, I'm not going to work today.

57:14Kelly Garthwaite:That part was super empowering. I felt like I was calling the shots in my own life in a way that I hadn't. I gave myself permission to make that decision. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. Normally I'm waiting for someone else to give me permission for most of my life. um and so that felt really freeing and then for a while afterwards it still felt freeing but then the questions came up because I wasn't moving to something quote-unquote certain um the questions started coming up after that um and this journey of almost two years has been really interesting and that's another conversation for another day but um it's been really hard but also really really important in my whole process um but yeah the day that i was leaving i was like yes i'm gonna have all this free time well erica you just obviously love that that

58:13Erica Breuer:comment there but do you think it's important that you have to have something to leave to or can you literally just go right i'm off i'll just work it out as i go along i think sometimes you

58:24Che Ugwuala:just have to stop. I've learned that lesson that like, yes, figuring it out from that point on is hard, but sometimes to continue in the same situation would be harder and worse. And I know that sounds privileged and impractical and I don't care. I think staying in some situations can kill you. Yeah. chai if you were to leave google and you just said you were a googler you actually described

59:00Erica Breuer:stuff as a googler so that's like it's kind of like implanted in you a little bit isn't it i mean yeah like i didn't i didn't make that up that's like that's a that's a known thing that's how much like the culture is just so um you know so prevalent yeah it's um i think there's i don't know whether you were alluding to this before kelly but you sort of said like the questions and I'm I've done that I've changed careers quite a few times people go so what are you going to do now or you know someone says what do you do and you kind of like freeze you go I don't actually know because I don't have that job title anymore yeah my ego has definitely been

59:39Kelly Garthwaite:worked out a lot in the last couple of years being like okay I don't really have much to show for myself right now but that's another part where I have realized I've had to dislodge that identity from what I do. And like, why, why, why do I always have to be doing something? Why do I always have to be producing? I don't, I can just show up and exist sometimes. Um, and I also, it was the same thing at Red Bull. Like that's a lot of people's identities. Certain people will go and become, um, a wings team member, the people who hand out Red Bulls, um, in college. And then they just stay at Red Bull for like 12, 15 years and they know nothing else.

1:00:21Kelly Garthwaite:So it's deeply rooted in people's identity. And that was one thing I noticed. And I was like, I don't really want to be like that.

1:00:32Che Ugwuala:It's interesting that you were reflecting on turning 40, Jay and Kelly. I'm also in the 40 club I'm 41 my actual re-evaluation came when I was a 35 and it's a landmark birthday when you have it end with a zero or or a five and what's really interesting is in research psychology research we found that this is a very common phenomenon for people to completely re-evaluate to the point where in organizations the year after the CEO has a landmark birthday revenue is more than likely to drop by up to 20 because of changes I wanted to want to make so if anyone is listening watching who is about to approach a landmark birth and is having these feelings it's perfectly normal and it's a it's a good time to to start thinking about it Georgia can we go to you please do we have any questions from from people here that we can maybe answer before we we head off we have a few um but I'm going to name two that are really really interesting especially to myself um this one particular is for Shay um for anyone who is in corporate what changes in workplace policies have been seen since the pandemic?

1:01:42Erica Breuer:Yeah, that's a good one. So at Google, you know, we, like everyone else, like we sort of shifted to like a hybrid working model. So right now we allow employees the opportunity to work two days from home and then three days in the office. And yes, they are tracking this. they are totally tracking this um but what i found is that there's been more of an appreciation for flexibility um within the workspace um and you know i think with the pandemic it kind of showed us that like hey like we're operating as whole humans that have so many different aspects of our lives um that are happening and sometimes the normal nine to five doesn't necessarily like work for you to be able to, you know, to optimize your life with childcare and kid activities and things like that.

1:02:40Erica Breuer:And so there's definitely an acknowledgement of that within the workplace, for sure. One other thing, and this is just like maybe like a Google privilege thing as well is, they also noticed that a lot of our talent in the US, obviously they live abroad. And so they've given us the opportunity to have like five weeks where you can work from anywhere. And so that's just not, that's not counted as part of like your requirement to be in the office, which is also really nice as well. So I've personally just seen just within Google specifically, just like more of an attention around just workplace flexibility that's more a part of our policies than they were before the pandemic.

1:03:29Kelly Garthwaite:it's a nice perk yeah yeah yeah thank you for that and just one more question that i definitely want to get in before the end is um what should we do in terms of ai proofing ourselves are there any ai courses that you know of okay and that's for everybody i assume that feels like two separate

1:03:50Che Ugwuala:questions, right? Like, because learning AI doesn't necessarily AI-proof you, it just makes you more congruent with AI. So I would say work on your human dynamics skills. Get really good at bringing people together, facilitating those moments that AI still can't solve for. That's the power of being human. Second that.

1:04:18Erica Breuer:Yeah. And also, I think Sorry, Jay. No, I was just going to, I was agreeing to that as well. I think also we've seen the rise of, I think it was called QuickGPT, wasn't it, for a little while? People were just like going against ChatGPT and quitting them because of the thing they did with, I'm not going to go into it, but the thing they did. And we are going to get to the point, I think, where it's human first. You are going to go, and Kelly, you were saying before, you're choosing where you're spending your money. So people are going to be choosing where they spend the money because it is human first.

1:04:49Erica Breuer:We don't use AI or nothing is produced by AI. So if we can just strap in for a little bit, then I think we will come almost, not full circle, we'll certainly come to a point where people will be like, I'm not an AI, I don't like anything from AI, so I will make sure I will actively choose companies that don't use AI. But I'm not sure that necessarily answers the question. Georgie, do you think that we've answered the question or do you think there's still a nuance in there?

1:05:18Erica Breuer:Are you muted, Georgie?

1:05:20Che Ugwuala:I'm so sorry. I do actually think there is... I think that's been answered, yeah. I genuinely do. Brilliant. Is there one more question we could squeeze in before we head off? Or have we covered most of them?

1:05:34Kelly Garthwaite:Well, there is. There was one from... Just wiggling myself to the top.

1:05:44Che Ugwuala:There was an interesting one about... um have the guests started some ai businesses or any other side hustle in order to safeguard themselves against the ai threats good question has anybody i have not started an ai business

1:06:07Kelly Garthwaite:but i use ai and editing because it just pops out some some little hooks for me but that's the only thing.

1:06:19Che Ugwuala:You know, in my career, I've always more or less worked for myself and even what I kill. And for me, the safeguard is just having different irons and different fires at all times. And I think what we were thinking of as side hustles, that's kind of the name of the game now everybody's looking to have a little something just in case this market crumbles or that job suddenly ends but no way i no ai business over here i'm not that smart

1:06:54Erica Breuer:yeah um none for me either but um i think i echo what erica just said it is i guess like trying to future-proof yourself by creating opportunities for yourself outside of what your normal nine-to-five is. And that's what I'm trying to do, quite frankly. And yeah, I'm just on that journey. I'm on that journey there too.

1:07:23Kelly Garthwaite:And all of that goes back to the relationships you have with other humans. Just in general, that's where the meat is, unless you're vegan, but you know. that's where the connection is are yeah yeah well i think what people what ai is great at is you

1:07:41Erica Breuer:ask a question they'll go you're absolutely right and it's yeah what a great idea we should go you know you should definitely go and live in the garage and eat cheese all day what a great idea here is in different way cheeses you could try whereas if you actually do the opposite and you go no i'm going to push back on this i'm going to say i think i'll be real honest with you that's a rubbish idea you that is a terrible idea you're the opposite of ai and then you become valuable because because you become known in your organization as someone who's just going to actually be anti-ai you're going to tell you exactly what you think now that's very careful with that because you don't want to be that person but you also you know if you just think about ai can't do and obviously there's obvious stuff like you know the um uh they can't come in and fix your air conditioner they can't come in but what if in your in terms of your work there's going to be lots of stuff that AI says it can do but it's not going to do anywhere near as well as a human's going to do because a human's going to think about it it's going to have think about the consequences around other people and like you said that Kelly all the relationships you've got that is that not going to AI us AI proof us just by having really quite deep and great relationship

1:08:46Che Ugwuala:with others with others yeah I hope so I hope so yeah I think I mean to answer from from our perspectives about truth lies and work we do use ai and automations we help with our editing our sound quality we're playing with it to to take off some repetitive administrative based tasks um if you are looking for specific courses i have seen an organization called ivy jobs we did have their founders on the podcast probably about 12 months ago they offer lots of ai courses um ai My education is kind of their main thing. I haven't done any of them, so I can't endorse them necessarily, but I know they are there.

1:09:28Che Ugwuala:So check out ivy.jobs if you are looking for something practical in terms of AI skill development.

1:09:32Erica Breuer:And also, I know that Google's got lots of stuff, skills with Google. Yeah, I was going to say. Yeah, and also using one of Google's tools. Che, if you know the person who invented Notebook LM, please tell them I want to. I want to fly over there and kiss them on the mouth. I love it. But what's cool about that is that you can say, hey, right, I want to learn how to use Gemini, Google's LLM better. So you can literally go into Notebook.ai, upload hundreds of videos from, and then use it as your own. I mean, I'm not looking at you, because you know exactly how it works. But for anyone listening, it basically becomes your own sort of like, your own LLM that's going to teach you how to use, use ChatGPT or Anthropic or Gemini or other LLMs that are available.

1:10:16Che Ugwuala:And good having a whole LinkedIn Live just about that, couldn't we? maybe we should thank you so much first of all to our incredible panelists Che, Erica and Kelly and for giving us an extra 10 minutes of your time as well thank you to everybody who attended live and everybody who will be watching this afterwards if there are any questions in the comments we haven't gotten round to we're all obsessed with LinkedIn the four of us not Al much we're on there and we'll spend some time answering any questions that we didn't get round to but yeah thank you so much everybody thank you to georgia as well expertly managing that in terms of the comments and and questions we will see you again on the 1st of april we have another linkedin live coming up to you the details of that will be out very soon but in the meantime thank you everybody yeah thank you guys i love talking to you guys yeah thank you thank you let's make this

1:11:12Erica Breuer:It's like a weekly thing.

1:11:13Kelly Garthwaite:Yeah. It's a week. We got this.

1:11:16Erica Breuer:Yeah, we could do this. I'm losing. It's a deal. We've got it on tape. So go and follow everyone who's been part of this and we will see you guys soon. Anything else to add, Leanne?

1:11:25Che Ugwuala:Nothing else to add.

1:11:26Erica Breuer:Bye-bye. Bye. Thank you. Bye.

1:11:31Che Ugwuala:That's it for this one. Thank you so much for listening. If you would like to connect with any of our panelists, you'll find all of their details in the show notes. If you'd like to be a future guest on one of our LinkedIn lives, we would love to hear from you drop us an email at podcast at truthliesandwork.com and if you enjoyed this please do leave a review it genuinely helps more people find the show see you soon