LIVE! Employee engagement in times of crisis (why bother?), with Jeffrey Fermin and Kristien Turner

26:29Where do I move? What do I do next? How can you spot one? I think as a leader, you start to see maybe one telltale sign is they start to get involved in too many extracurricular activities. And so definitely I think a sign is if your top performer on your team is suddenly really involved in some incredible charity work or has suddenly decided that they're going to go and do a master's in org psychology, for example, or they've suddenly decided, I think you can take that as a sign of, not always, but you could take that as a sign of, um, we're not giving them, we're not stimulating them enough here.

27:06They're getting bored, they're getting anxious. And so they're upskilling, they're, they're going, they're going to study something different. Um, they're getting involved in community stuff because that, that's actually something that happens when you start to feel like you don't belong anymore in the workplace, you're going to look to build your community elsewhere. And so back to that example of charity work or volunteering, or you're suddenly the one that's going out and doing a bunch of financial education masterclasses with children and underprivileged schools. As a leader, you've got to look and go, what are they searching for?

27:36Why are they doing that? Why is my top performer, why is my top team suddenly half the time on the job and the other half of the time studying something in preparation for the future, building community elsewhere outside of this team. Or frankly, maybe they, you know, maybe they just aren't showing up to the office, right? Like, you know, we might have a hybrid policy and they might be kind of doing two or three days at home and a couple of days in the office. And I've certainly seen a trend again where people are going, you forced me back into the office, but I've got a little flexibility here.

28:07I'm going to, I'm going to stay at home. I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to stay out of this environment. So I think as a leader, if you look around, you've got a team of 50 and you go five or six of these people feel like they're building something outside of work. Five or six people here are studying something totally different. Five people over here are volunteering. Suddenly you've got to go, oh, wow, half my team are doing other things and they're not engaged. They're not here and present. And I think that's how you go, oh, God, these people are kind of just plodding along.

28:37These colleagues of mine are plodding along, plotting for their next move. Um, I think there's some of the tells, I think in real life, there's some of the telltale signs. Um, cause I, I don't think the people that are job hugging are getting angry. I don't think they're getting, I don't think they're getting restlessly. And I don't think they're getting provocative. I don't think they're the ones sitting in a meeting being the contrarian with their boss going, I don't agree with this. That's a horrible annual plan. I'm not going to deliver a hundred million dollars towards your plan. That's not how it works in that corporate business setting.

29:07That's not how people like react. I think you've got to look for some of those more subtle signs of they're going in different directions and that direction is away from us and is away from me as a leader, not towards me. What do you think, Jeff? So amazing points there. Uncertainty plays a massive role right now, but I want to speak on the manager side and the leader side of things, right? In the last employee engagement report, we saw that manager engagement actually dipped from 30 % to 27%. Now, I'm going to land the plane here, I promise, but let's go to that famous quote, right? People don't quit their jobs, they quit their bosses.

29:42So a lot of the stress could be coming from the fact that leaders, managers, just like employees, feel uncertain about the future. There's a lot of negativity in the news. And I felt like last year was an insane year when it came to some of these CEO memos that were dropped. They were practically openly saying like, hey, 996 workforce is the new norm. Everyone needs to be so, you need to be so part of our workforce that you need to sleep under your desk and do all these things. And if not, you know, we're going to have AI come in and replace you. Essentially, that was kind of the big theme last year.

30:15And that's what kind of swung the, you know, the pendulum of employee to employer markets, kind of like all the way to the employer side. You had leaders openly advocating or C-level leadership saying like, hey, we want to make sure that we get every ounce of productivity from our employees. Now, granted, that also falls on the managers as well, and they're probably undergoing the same levels of stress as the employees and their engagement levels are suffering because of it. So I will say if an employee is stressed, it's likely because their manager is also stressed and it is, you know, stress doesn't more like we're just adding stress on top of stress without kind of having a plan for it.

30:57And I feel like that could be leading to a lot of job dissatisfaction. You know, I myself have seen stressed out managers kind of taking out on employees and what that means for the workforce. I don't need a metric to define that. I've seen people's faces and how they react to getting yelled at, getting screamed at, being told that if they don't hit, you know, certain goals, their jobs are on the line. And when you have that message permeating from senior leadership and, you know, C-level employees of some of the largest organizations in the world saying like, hey, your employees are responsible and we could get rid of them and replace them with AI.

31:31Which, by the way, Christian, amazing job. We went 28 minutes. That has to be a record, right? For mentioning AI, we did not mention AI for 28 minutes. So kudos to us. but yes I do feel like a lot of the issues are stemming from you know c-level folks and they're they're kind of gung-ho on ensuring that we have to start looking at AI as a employee replacer which shouldn't be should be an amplifier and we should be empowering people to use all these new tools similar to like what our I guess grandparents got calculators for the first time that's a whole different subject I want to stay on point with this one and yes a lot of great things I think that's a really interesting point though jeff when you mentioned kind of um the managers don't have it figured out either you're right like the leaders of leaders that that leader that i mentioned of the hundred person team they're also potentially job hugging they don't know what their next step looks like they're getting the pressure from the top to meet the numbers they're getting the pressure from the top to cut heads and then they're the ones that actually are putting the face to the wider team of a hundred a thousand people um they don't have it figured out either which is why i I think the best companies out there at the moment are investing in, and this is a little bit of a plug here, Leanne, for profiles like yourselves or my, you know, organizational psychologists, but they're actually bringing in proper coaches, real coaches, not life coaches, but not necessarily executive coaches either, but kind of the Wendy from Billions kind of character, right?

32:53We're bringing in here the coach that can help those leaders in both directions, manage that team and the message that's flowing down and also manage the messaging and the relationship with the leaders above them because they're in that crunch position as well at the moment if you're a leader of a team of 100 people it's not a fun it's not a fun time it's not like a it's not a fun you know moment um and so i think companies that are investing in like really awesome human coaching programs with those kinds of leaders are going to see are going to see the benefits they're going to see those leaders stay those leaders be more productive um fabulous glass door scores because we talk about investing in our people externally um but coaching has never been more important for that population that just needs someone to talk to.

33:37That leader, that leader of a hundred can be really, really lonely because you know that you've got to cut 30 heads in three months time. You know, you've got to meet your numbers or your head will be cut. Who do you go and talk to? Who do you get vulnerable with? And unfortunately in today's corporate world, we don't allow for those vulnerabilities to necessarily be surfaced in those exchanges, in those team meetings. And so you need a coach. You need a little bit like I call it professional therapy, but you need to go and just kind of decompress and let it out because those guys are struggling as well.

34:09And so I always feel, we always like to beat up the leader or the middle manager. They've kind of got a tough job as well at the moment in corporate life, right? Because they're in the middle of this sandwich and it's not pleasant. It's not a good time. And it's a media narrative that's being pushed too. Like, can AI get rid of the middle manager? Like that is one of, there's, if you Google that right now, there are, Yeah. Dozens, if not hundreds of articles trying to push managers out of the equation entirely. So I don't know. There's a lot of negativity towards managers that stress. I'm sure it's permeating.

34:40It's going downwards. It's trickling down to employees. And it is just adding on to this employee engagement crisis that's kind of going on right now. yeah i could not agree more i think i've said more than once on this platform if you do want to think train your managers and support your managers i agree i coaching is such a wonderful way of supporting our our leaders and our managers and i i also think there's so much more we can do and as you said christian feed into that you know we're investing our people personal development i was reading some data from the charter institute of management the other day and they were talking about accidental managers and i've never seen a statistic this this bad before I've seen data on accidental management but never this high in this survey of around 3 000 people 82 percent of new managers who'd been in in the role for a couple of years had received no formal training or support in that role and it went on you know it may have dropped maybe like 52 percent of people who had been in management for 10 years plus and even our senior leaders we were looking at about I think it's around 30 35 percent don't quote me on these numbers I can't remember all the moment on my head but it was a significant amount that still hadn't received any training we're asking so much of them without giving the appropriate resources to do it what I want to move on to is why businesses should care because like you say there's so much going on there's so much to think about there's so much pressure when a business is under this type of pressure and turnover is low engagement is it feeling like a nice to have and if it is how do we as HR leaders and practitioners make a case for continuing to invest in employee development in a time like this?

36:20Look, I'll take that one and I've got a really strong viewpoint on this. And back to the marketing analogy earlier, your team and your employees are an extension of your consumer brand. So gone are the days where you could invest, you know, 50 million in a new product launch and have an underinvested, horrible team sitting behind it, representing customer service, after sales, whatever. You've got to think about your employees as an extension of your consumer brand. It's what we talk about all the time when we talk about the magnetic eight and employer brand and the different lenses through which you see if your business is showing up externally with power, with might, and is resonating with your target audience.

36:58So for me, do it. If you're sitting there as a business owner, as a CEO, and you're going, I've got to cut costs. I've got to, you know, I'm worried about the economic, the macros, you know, just do it selfishly because by investing in your employees, you're also investing in how your product and your services are showing up externally. I don't think there's any examples out there anymore of, you know, an incredible product and a horrible team and a horrible kind of set of HR policies. And I'm going And I use an example. Let's name one. Lego. What a resurgence Lego has had the last 15 years. And I'd invite some HR practitioners here today that might not be so familiar with the new, I think the new head of people at Lego was announced yesterday.

37:42But look at the Lego people team. Look at the initiatives they have. Look at the onboarding with new hires. Look at their benefits, their paternity leave. I mean, it's just incredible. like the way they create a stickiness and an engagement in their employee base. And then you then go, wow, but all these new products, all these new associations with the world cup with formula one. And you know, is it since when did a 50 year old or a 60 year old want a Lego set for Christmas? When I grew up, it was like something you had as a seven or eight year old, like kudos to Lego. I think they've tripled, quadrupled their sales the last few years, but look at companies where you go great product, innovating, great quality, great values.

38:23and then look at the team that sits behind them. And I think that's when you start to go, I don't think you can have one without the other. And that's a physical product. But if we went to any of the airlines, any of the hotel chains, any of those real service orientated brands, I think that just gets even stronger. That message of just do the employee engagement piece. Maybe not because you want to be a fantastic leader or the best place to work or win lots of awards. Just do it because you want your product and service to be number one. You want to sell more? So I just think there's such a commercial crossover there, Leanne.

38:56I just don't think you can disconnect them. Final idea here, and it kind of links back to that point before, read an incredible article a couple of weeks ago how in Scandinavia, and it's always the Scandies know that are always ahead of the game here, are spending 6 % of their payroll, their total payroll costs on performance management, performance development, on coaching, on learning and development, on developing their people. 6%. In the US, in the Americas, it's less than 1%. And then you say, of that 1%, how much of that is being spent on AI upskilling academies, techie stuff? So you go, hang on a minute.

39:37If we're investing less than 1%, if we're spending a million dollars on payroll, but we're spending less than a thousand a month on learning and development, something's got to give. That's pretty bad. So maybe we should look to our friends in Sweden and in Copenhagen and in Denmark and say they're doing something right they're investing six percent of that monthly total cost of your employee base and they're investing it back in them and they're saying and again that links back to our Lego example right back to Denmark back to Copenhagen you're saying invest in your people you'll get better product better sales and be a more successful company I actually was looking into some data on on this sorry Jeffrey we'll come come to you because it will feed in nicely is some actual research around and I thought it was really quite powerful actually.

40:24And there was a research that looked at over 8 ,000 businesses before the financial crisis during and afterwards to see how they invested and what happened in kind of recovery years. And the organizations with high employee engagement during the economic crisis grew earnings per share faster in the rebound than by a huge margin. organizations with the top 25 % of engagement scores enjoyed a 22 % higher profitability and 21 % higher productivity in recovery compared to the bottom 25 % of organizations. So as you say, Christian, even if you want to be really cold and commercial about this, employee engagement is really good for business.

41:05Really good for business. Totally. I just wanted to give you all the praise in the world. You absolutely nailed it. One of the big things that we would pitch early on at Office Vibe was employee advocacy. What is the downspinth? In fact, when you have high engagement rates, can your organization do well enough and have your employees become advocates for you on social, on all these different platforms? So much so that there is that kind of commercial crossover where it's like, oh, wow, these people love their organization so much that they're willing to go above and beyond to kind of market it for free.

41:36And it's organic. And you are constantly seeing photos of teams at an office, teams at an offsite, whatever the case may be. that some folks might even skip going to Glassdoor. They're like, wow, I want to work there. And it's happened at my organization at All Voices. We have several employees that have come in because they established relationships and we just kind of like talked up and truly mean that we like love it over there. So with that said, I want to say, you nailed it. Employee advocacy, please invest in some of these engagement platforms. I also want to just tie it back to a data point, right?

42:08When you are investing in employee listening, whether it's an employee engagement tool, an employee relations platform, whatever the case may be, you tend to see a nice little uptick on those engagement scores. Companies that collect employee feedbacks year round, I want to say 8 % to 10 % engagement gains. So if you do want to actually start getting more advocacy online and really, aside from understanding your needs, getting that promotion online, start investing in feedback, start collecting it, really start getting energetic about listening to employees and doing the best you can to address them.

42:44And you're going to start seeing, you know, those engagement numbers creep up and hopefully it leads to that nice effect of employee advocacy online. I also want to highlight that, you know, my organization, it's only 40 people, but people tend to a 40 person headcount, but it does appear to be a lot larger because we're actively talking about how we love working there and we're actively You talk about everything that we're doing. So we'll say if we're doing that as a 40 person organization, I can't even imagine what a company the size of Lego, you know, with probably tens of thousands of employees are benefiting from having all their employees kind of just like post about them and say, wow, this is truly one of the best places to work.

43:22and uh also want to highlight that yes lego's sales are probably up because man the demand for them it's intense i think i saw like one of these def star ones go for 500 so if anyone out there yeah if anyone out there wants to gift one please feel free to send pr packages are welcome yes but it's so interesting jeff that you mentioned you mentioned that lego actually do do a really good job about showing up and showing off externally and using the power of their real engagement internally, externally, but actually of the big companies, that's another huge gap and miss. They don't have employee advocacy programs because for the last 10 years, we were so worried about what our employees would say about us on social media.

44:04We had everyone sign disclaimers in their contract saying, if you say something that's out of line, we will fire you the same day. Now, companies are kind of easing, easing back on those social media guidelines, principles, rules, and saying, actually, wouldn't it be great? We've got 350 ,000 people working for us around the world, and of which 260 are on LinkedIn. And if they posted like once a week, wow, what would we have to spend on paid media to get the eyeballs on that content, both for our product, but also for our workplace vibes, engagement, come and work here message. And so, again, 90 % of companies over 50 ,000 people worldwide do not have an employee advocacy program on LinkedIn.

44:49And I know there's other platforms available. And the moment we move to China, there's different platforms over there. But they just don't have a clear sense of content pillars. What are we encouraging people to post? How are we, frankly, how are we asking our leaders to set the example? right? Because if you're the leader of a team of a thousand, 10 ,000 people, I want to see you visible on LinkedIn. And I don't want selfies. I want to see, I want to see your team. I don't want to see selfies of you at Cannes Lions or at CES in Vegas, kind of having the free work trip, staying at a five-star hotel, because that's going to switch me off.

45:21You're talking about tough economic times. There's no, there's no, there's no bonus this year. There's no pay rise this year. But then I see my leader flying first class around the world, um, at all of the conferences, not the best look. What do you do? You start to develop content where you recognize the top performers on your team, where you focus on, you know, individuals that have gone above and beyond. It's not rocket science. It's about putting the spotlight as a leader on your team members that are just doing cool shit. And if you can get that right and that sticky sauce, right? Um, I think you're onto something, you know, and again, other leaders out there doing this really well, but I think using one of our, one of our great British, entrepreneurs.

46:01Richard Branson did this, started this 20 years ago. And Richard Branson with Virgin Group is always putting the focus on what an incredible team he has across the portfolio of companies. For me, he's like the OG kind of leader influencer on LinkedIn. There's others, but I just think Richard does such a great job because it's not about him. It's about him on the flight, but he's going to talk about Shelley, who's the head flight attendant who gave the best service on the Vegas to London flight, or he's going to be in the hotel in Chicago talking about the new opening, but talking about the general manager that went above and beyond, or on the cruise ship talking about the entertainment team.

46:37But the focus is on your people. It's on your company culture. It's on how we live the day to day. It's not about you as the leader, and it's not beautiful selfies with professional makeup and lots of professional lighting. And so those employee advocacy programs can be so powerful. They can be so cheap to stand up as well, because you don't really need infrastructure to do this. You just need a leader that says, hey, I trust my people. I trust them with our customers. So I'm going to trust them with their own voice on LinkedIn. And we're going to encourage them to post and post frequently and post authentically.

47:10But we're going to give them some ideas and we're going to give them a little content to work with. It's not rocket science, but so many companies today are missing that opportunity. And so then when they go, oh no, I need to hire 10 ,000 people in Miami over the next three months and they go, where do we start? You go, well, you've had a team there for 25 years, but they're just silent. They're gagged. So, you know, I think today what we spoke about the first kind of 40, 45 minutes was how do you build a real culture, a real engagement in your organization? But once you've built it, let's communicate it.

47:42Let's like lift the lid, open access. It doesn't need to be behind closed doors anymore. You don't have to lock it up. You need to open it up, share it with the world. And it can really pay dividends. It can really pay dividends. Why has it not happened in the past? Because HR didn't really get on with marketing. Marketing doesn't get on with comms. External comms want to own all the channels. And we all kind of in the past used to kind of ruffle each other's feathers. We're in 2026, for goodness sake. Let's all just get in a room and make this work, make this happen. And let's leave the egos, let's leave the ex-co-egos out of the door and go, we've got an incredible employee base here.

48:20Let's use it. No? Fabulous. Fabulous. I'm so sorry. I just want to quickly, first of all, we need, Georgie, we just need to check on our questions. We've just got carried away. That is absolutely fabulous. For those people who are wanting to learn more, obviously, go and follow these amazing people because they'll tell you more and more stuff like that. A little plug for our little show. In about four weeks' time, we've got someone called Rachel Harris who's coming on. Much smaller than Lego, only about 50 or 60 employees, but she talks about employee-generated content, EGC, not UGC. Basically, exactly, exactly what these guys are talking about there.

48:51So, Georgia, have we got anything that, any burning questions that people want answered? We have indeed. We've got about four. So, first one, and it's playing a devil's advocate to the previous conversation about job hugging. When is an employee at the point of job hugging too late?

49:15in terms of is it too late to change their minds? I think what they're asking is is it too late once they're at that point? Too late to re-engage to kind of pull them back in? I think not. To answer that one it's as simple as just having a conversation and And my boss over there, Emily, left a very nice comment saying, like, leave it to Jeffrey to have the empath type of response. But it's really just a matter of having an open and honest conversation. There it is. Yeah, it's really a matter of having a conversation. Even though I come from a tech background and I've built feedback systems up, I truly believe that I just have that all these systems there are almost like a safeguard.

50:02The reality is you just need to hop on a Google Meet chat or a face-to-face, find for a coffee, and really have that heart-to-heart. The same way that Christian was kind of mentioning that managers need mentorship, employees need that mentorship. And what better person to do with them than their managers that are actively working with them, having meetings with them once a week. So you have to have a, pardon my friends here, a no bullshit conversation and say like, hey, this is how I'm feeling. Why are you like this? What can we do to really understand? How can we meet your needs here and make sure that you could get back on that high horse and really be a productive member over here?

50:35Yes, right now, times are tough. Job hugging is little. It's becoming the norm because of all these external things going on. But, you know, a real great manager is really going to know when they'll know how to spot like when their employees dress and have that one on one conversation and and really drill down to whatever it is that's truly bothering an employee. I also want to say I have a psychology background, so maybe I'm biased. I always like to see where I can help people. uh i know that might not be the case for for every manager but i i think at the end of the day it really just boils down to communication and i'm going to answer the question slightly don't come slightly differently um which is i think you can drop hug for a year i'm gonna i'm gonna put i'm gonna put a time i'm gonna put a time limit on it i'm gonna say do it for a year because after that year it's going to be detrimental to you your career it's going to be detrimental to your mental health.

51:30If you kind of stay in that job longer than a year and you're just not enjoying it, not having a good time, sometimes you're going to have to extend that a little bit. It's not binary, right? It could, it could be longer than a year because frankly, you need the benefits. You need the pay, the paycheck until you've lined up the next job. But I think sitting comfortably for a year is fine. Any longer than that, it's just not good for either side. So like if you're sitting there going, Oh my goodness, I've been in a job for like five years that I've been hugging and I want to get out of probably it's time to time to make things happen.

51:58Yeah. And just to, add on to that, like I brought up the phrase actively disengage, right? Around 2011, when I first started my, my employee engagement software, that phrase was kind of a new phrase. And I want to say back then it was like 12 % of people were actively disengaged, meaning that they would go out of their way to sabotage their company. They would be willing to like, you know, push out data and stuff. I feel like once you go past a year of job hugging and you start getting to a point where you go from disengaged to actively disengaged, you're just going to want to freaking, yeah, it becomes dangerous for the organization and for your own mental health good point absolutely all i know is we know from from the research of certain types of of leadership transformation transformational for example can weaken uh the link between intention to quit and somebody actually handing in their notice so it's not too late if somebody you're noticing somebody is job hogging if you approach it in the right way and i totally agree what with jeffrey is saying as well in terms of of having those conversations and those conversations really need to focus around how do we make this work meaningful how do we improve the resources you've got to do your job that includes training and development is this role stretching you in a way that is is purposeful to you and do we you know fit long term into the broader goals that you have in terms of outside your life and if if you can't do any of that within your power as a manager then there's probably nothing you can do um but it's not too late you can so have those conversations and focus on those things.

53:25Georgia, there's a question here from Jennifer Martinez. Do you think we've covered that or should we put this to the panel? I know we've touched on it. It says, I'll put it up on the screen, but basically you're saying being in such trying times, having the threat of AI taking over the workforce, how does one keep employee engagement high at work? Now, I know we've talked around this and to be fair, we did go 26 minutes, as you said, Jeffrey, without talking about it. Have you guys got any thoughts on this particular question? Can you both see it by the way, the question? I have a doom and gloom one, so maybe you want to start with the positive one?

53:59No, you can. Start with the doom and gloom. Okay, perfect. Yeah. Spin it up and do something positive. I'm very positive as an individual. My team will tell you this. I don't like where certain things are heading. And I was doing a little bit of research leading up to this, and I was finding out about what these AI enthusiasts are now calling the next kind of big jump, where we're going to have this underclass that serves people that are working those 996, learning everything about AI, becoming prompt engineers. And I just want to start by saying, I don't think that's the way where we're going to head as a society.

54:36And I know a lot of these C-level folks that brought up all these memos last year and all this nonsense that's being pushed on by the media is kind of saying like, AI is going to take over everything. You have to work 996 hours. You have to do everything you can to become this next superstar and the underclass are going to work all these trade level jobs. Wanted to bring all this stuff up to say, like, I don't think, I do think that people, hopefully like everyone on this call are going to step in and ask for more governance, more rules, more regulations. I know that the UK is already having like AI regulations, if I remember correctly.

55:10I do think the United States will hopefully catch up and get to a point where we're starting to say like, okay, enough is enough when it comes to, you know, what AI can do and how it should impact workers. You know, we saw Oracle lay off 30 ,000 people today or some absurd number, and they cited AI as one of the main reasons. I think they're, sorry if anyone hears from Oracle, but I do think that's going to have a little bit of backlash. And let me land the plane here and say, we're seeing something that I believe is very temporary. And I do think that society will heal and it will eventually, that pendulum will swing back towards the employers and we'll start seeing AI more as a tool, an amplifier, not a replacer of employees.

55:54And eventually there will be leaders that step up and say, hey, the future isn't going to be folks that are buying and selling things with AI agents. We need employees, we need workers, we need people that are going to benefit the economy and actually provide value and provide meaning for why we work. So like, you know, there has to be some kind of limitations on the growth and expansion of AI. All that to say is right now it does appear to be a threat and there is a doom and gloom scenario where there is this AI overclass and the underclass of tradesmen. I know a lot of folks in the tech community want to believe that that is the future, but the reality is we're going to go back to somewhat of a normal state.

56:34And I do think that answering that employee engagement part, once we kind of put those regulations in place and once there are certain laws and restrictions on what AI can do and what it can replace, it's going to help benefit the employer marketing. So yeah, I hope that made a little bit of sense. No, it's brilliant. I just want to jump in and ask you, Christian, because I think that's a really good angle. I'm not sure if we'd have time otherwise. But in terms of this whole, as Jeffrey said, with AI and the layoffs and how there is some backlash to that, how does this play in with employer brand?

57:10with what organizations do now going to be telling of their employer brand in the future? What are your thoughts? Yeah, thoughts there, strong thoughts. You've got to be razor, you've got to be super sharp and honest about what's happening internally and what you're selling externally, because if not candidates smell a rat. And so there are examples of brands out there that have had beautiful consumer brands and invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in their employer brand over the last couple of years and they're promising incredible career paths and graduate programs, et cetera. And then you hear they've just laid off 10 ,000 grads and you go, oh, well, what about this career path?

57:45I'm a year in and you've just, you've just sacked me. You just fired me at a critical point. So I think as a candidate, the candidates are getting far more educated and far smarter distinguishing between what is marketing BS and what is a true representation of what it's like to work there. And they're, they're getting smarter. They're going out to more sources than ever before. they're looking at the leaders on LinkedIn. They're going to Glassdoor. They're Googling. They're going to careers fairs. They're talking to ex-employees. They're talking to family members that know somebody that like everyone's doing their research to really uncover what it's really like to work there.

58:21So you're right. It's all about congruence. You've got to, you can sell it externally if you've got the goods to back it up. And I think that's where we're headed. And the companies that are frankly lying externally about a promise that they can't deliver on are going to struggle in the future. Back to that question. That question left me thinking. I loved everything Jeff said, but two other kind of quick points there. I work closely with Udemy and Udemy are, I guess, the world's largest now upskiller on all things AI. And I had a great conversation with them last week out of San Francisco. And they said, yeah, number one is our whole AI suite of academy.

58:56And we've got 800 different courses. Number two, three, and four on the list of most on in demand courses and upskilling is public speaking creativity but creativity along with kind of like graphic design and thinking about actual like designers is all of those kind of actual human skills and so i think there's now going to be a little bit of a bit of a change again the wind is going to swing and going to go it's great that you've done your prompt engineering kind of 101 and you've you've you've kind of delved into the tech and the future focus, but actually companies are now going, oh my goodness, but those leaders can't speak in front of a room of 100 leaders.

59:38And oh my goodness, that presentation we saw was awful because they had clawed to it and it just looks like AI gobbledygook. So I think we are going back to actually saying we've got to invest in some of those kind of, we used to call them soft skills. I don't know what we call them anymore, but it's just, yeah, some of those basics, right, that we all should have in the workplace. So that reassures me because it shows me that we're still giving a little kudos and putting a little weight on those skills which are so important in life in general. And then I think back to Jennifer's kind of comment there, my only other little nugget would be rather than worrying about what the companies are doing and what society are doing, take your own control of the situation.

1:00:22So I would say, Jennifer, what are you studying? What are you interested in? If you're an incredible creative graphic designer, like let's focus on the artistic side. Like let's, let's continue to develop that flair. Like focus on what you can do in this situation where the world seems bleak. We mentioned doom and gloom. We mentioned world wars. We mentioned tens of thousands of layoffs today, but like as an individual, as a candidate, what can I do to stay alive, to stay relevant, to stay active. And it normally comes back to linking where you're good at something with where you're passionate about something.

1:00:55Um, and that's kind of, that's, that's kind of my advice really to, to any candidate that's sitting there going, Oh my goodness, am I going to be irrelevant in 10 years? And I go, but what are you great at? No, but you're great at this today. Focus on what we're good at and develop that and make that a super skill. Um, because if not, you're going to spend the next 10 years looking at Instagram and looking at, you know, the news cycle and you're not going to sleep and you're going to worry about it and then we probably are going to be irrelevant in the job market in 10 years time so focus on what we can do today to stay ahead human skills that's right human skills that's it yeah it's human skills totally is i love this i love this i mean lee have we run out of time well we're good i think we have hit our hour mark but i did check in with jeffrey and christian before we started they said they've got an extra 10 minutes or so So if we've got any more questions, Georgia?

1:01:44Yeah. So I think the one by Jacqueline Durrett has probably been answered. We say that AI should be an amplifier, not a replacement. But when companies use it as a replacement, how can we encourage employees to see it as a collaborative tool? Oh, I've got to find this. Where was this by? It is. You got it. Is that right? That's the one. there we go guys so who wants to start off with that one

1:02:17i'll i'll lead off with this yeah um i feel very fortunate to work within you know an ai native uh platform and employee relations platform and where you know they they taught like i think what's the adoption rate like it's 100 ai adoption at this point obviously but like we find ways and we articulate them in meetings to kind of make sure that everything that can be automated is automated by AI. You got several different service providers do that. I feel like the best way to tell employees and even employers alike is just to let them know, like, this is saving time. This is really here not to replace me, but to save time doing X amount of manual tasks.

1:02:59You know, if it takes 20, 30 minutes a day, it's going to do it in a couple of seconds. So that's always the number one use case for AI. It costs$20 a month to have something that's going to save upwards of, I don't know, 20, 30 hours a week. By all means, it's a smart choice to make. And I feel like that message of time saving, what's the number one product pitch line that's always used, right? You get back to doing what you actually care about. You get back time in using certain systems, whether it is AI, an automation tool. If you're knowledgeable with Excel and you can make all these calculations and don't have to write them down in paper, and saves you time so you can get back to what you're good at and hopefully make time to attend a podcast like this, right?

1:03:43So that's really the number one thing I would encourage. When you're communicating with either employees or employers, let them know that these systems are really there to save time, to hopefully work on those human skills, and to connect with other people and maybe other organizations internally and establish those relationships that are going to benefit your organizations and the individual long term. So, yeah, that's how I would go about it. And also love to see that phrase, AI should be an amplifier, not a replacement, picking up steam. I used it on our podcast and I drop it on LinkedIn, I think once a week now.

1:04:17So I love it. Amazing. then i just add there i'd go back to that prior point i made knowing your worth knowing what you're fantastic at what you're incredible at um you can't be gray anymore in the office you can't be kind of like just plodding along you've got to have a super skill a superpower so are you the best presenter in your team do you create the best presentations are you the leader of other leaders do you bring together employee resource groups so are you the person who is leading the the committee and have a following, like you've got to have a position. And by position, I don't just mean, you know, the corporate job position.

1:04:54I mean, you've got to have a place in that workplace that makes you stand out for the right reasons. And AI is not replacing that at the moment, right? And just know your super skill, hone it, continue to invest in yourself, but know that increasingly, you know, that average performance that we might start to see with kind of the job hugging phenomenon that we've mentioned today as well, will only last so long. You've got to stand out, stand out for the right reasons, know your worth and do stuff that the AI can't currently do. And I think that's how you retain a little bit of confidence, a little bit of swag in the workplace, because, you know, you're not replaceable at the moment.

1:05:33And I just like to build a little bit more hope on that, because I too sometimes find myself questioning my relevance at times one of the things i always think about is the um the future job report that came out by the world economic forum and it talked about skills that are going to be more and more important um over the next five years and there's a whole quadrant in those results that was pro-social skills that are are in a human so it's things like critical thinking empathy um you know all those all those things that ai can't do so go and have a look at that as well um and and yeah make a little list of other ways you can invest in yourself because that's as christian said is going to be going to make the difference

1:06:19absolutely um georgia have we missed i mean i know there's been a few questions but a lot of them have been answered already is there anything you feel that hasn't been answered already um let's leave it on this one then uh sarah balendane um said those are all indicators that uh people have already decided to step away um what are some indicators um where leaders can have earlier notice and what earlier indicators have we got just pop down the screen wants to read it yeah i think we touched on that a little bit earlier we kind of said where you realize that in that 40-hour work week they're finding ways to go and do volunteering go and do new studies um go in different directions explore new avenues i think as a leader you've got to read the writing on the wall i think we touched on that earlier we're missing anything else guys the thing i might add is this you know this can also come into i think christian mentioned it's a mental health aspect to this as well particularly if somebody has been job hugging for a little while um you know it is these symptoms of burnout that are going to come we're going to come detached from our work we're going to get a bit a bit cynical and that masking is going to become exhausting you know showing up as if everything's fine and it's not so it's looking at any changes in behavior can be useful any changes in appearance how somebody shows up to work you know if it's subtle can be signs as well that somebody is is is dropping or more really disengaging so looking for those those signs as well could be could be useful.

1:07:51I have to think from an engineer standpoint, if they're not carrying out tickets or if they're not the productivity component to it, if they're not being able to compete fast, mostly because they feel glum, for lack of a better phrase there, and they don't just feel like working because they feel so disengaged that they're wearing this mask and the quality and quantity of their work, they're not as productive as usual. That's always kind of like an early giveaway, but I feel like that one's pretty fairly obvious. And just a final thought here, guys, can we just go back to basics? Can we just speak?

1:08:24Can we just communicate? Can we just see our manager? Like when I started out in work, I had a one-to-one every week with my manager, an hour. Just let's communicate. And then what happened is they all went virtual during the pandemic and then it went from once a week to maybe this is bi-weekly, but maybe it's monthly, but no, we've got the summer holidays, but we've got these holidays. And so people, you know, I've got friends that say to me, they speak to their manager six times a year and I'm going six times a year, but you work 60 hours a week that the math doesn't math. So if we just went back to having a little bit more communication, a little bit more contact, um, I think we'd be able to, we'd be able to on both sides, figure out what's going on a little bit quicker.

1:09:00We wouldn't need to wait to the annual engagement survey to figure out that, that our teams disengage because you're speaking to your team once a week. And so I think we've got to go back to some of the basics guys. I think that's where we're, you know, Yeah. Now I have a question for you. Do you think like the more time you spend like doing heads down work and not communicating with your managers, could that create a little bit of disengagement because you're kind of operating in a silo for 50? Yeah, 100%. 100%. That weekly touch in manager colleague kind of session is just so important. And the cadence of that is important.

1:09:34And actually, one of the worst things I've also seen is a manager that will put that in weekly, and then we'll just cancel them. The worst thing is the canceller. because actually now we go back to the earlier piece about being, you're going to promise something, um, you better deliver it. So if you're going to promise me a weekly one-to-one, even if it's 20 minutes or 30 minutes, don't cancel it on me 10 minutes before the session every single time, because my goodness, that's a surefire way to get that person wanting to leave or resigning or quiet quitting, whatever we're calling it. So yeah, let's just go back to communicating.

1:10:07Let's just, let's just sit down. Let's, let's have a weekly one-to-one. Let's go through objectives. Let's talk about what we've achieved. Let's talk about where we're headed. And when that doesn't exist, and when then that goes a month or two months between each occurrence, that's when you're going to get people leaving. Yeah. Fantastic. I see Emily and Rebecca on the comments. If you all, those are my teammates. If you ever cancel a meeting, I'm going to be very upset and I might cry. So please don't ever cancel on me. You've been warned. Oh, wow. I mean, we could, I think we could keep going for another hour easily on this, but I think we cover some really important important areas of of topic and i think we also gave some i think you both gave brilliant advice in terms of practical things we can do to to support employee engagement and advocacy on a budget it's just having these conversations it's it's using the resources um and how to spot people who may be job hugging job hugging and how we can help them so thank you both so much jeffrey and christian you are absolute rock stars thank you yeah you really go go and follow go and follow um jeffrey i've got my head people first your podcast but i think you've just changed the name of me uh people first uh we're gonna have christian on here this quarter uh christian i gotta get back to you and and uh yeah tell steven i say hi by the way i will i'm excited to have you on and it should be a blast can't wait it's an early promo right and for those people want to learn more about you where's the best place for for them to go christian linkedin yeah come follow me on linkedin yeah very active on there fabulous and jeffrey i'm guessing all voices in LinkedIn as well for you.

1:11:39All voices on LinkedIn. We'll be posting clips of our People First podcast. Check us out. We're doing some amazing stuff in the realm of employee relations. So it's fun stuff going on. And if you want to hear more about Jeffrey, then flip back about two weeks. We've got an hour of him on our podcast. And Christian, we definitely haven't you on. I can't remember if we've booked you in yet or not, but you are 100 % coming in whether you want to come on or not. You are 100 % coming on. Anything else to add before we wrap up, Lee? Only to say we will keep this video up. So if anybody came halfway through, it will be up to go back to the beginning.

1:12:10And the audio will actually be on Truth, Lies and Work podcast feed from tomorrow afternoon. So you can check it out there as well. Thank you very much to Associate Producer George as well for helping us with the comments and the tech side of it. Thank you all for joining us. And we will see you very soon. Yeah, see you all soon. Bye, guys. Bye. Take care. Thank you.

1:12:33that's it for this one thank you so much for listening if you would like to connect with any of our panelists you'll find all of their details in the show notes if you'd like to be a future guest on one of our linkedin lives we would love to hear from you drop us an email at podcast at truthliesandwork.com and if you enjoyed this please do leave a review it genuinely helps more people find the show see you soon

1:12:59Thank you.