$40B Canva CHRO: How Canva Actually Builds Culture & Why they open source their Playbooks!

24:55My team had moved on without me. I didn't have any credibility in this team because nobody knew me. I found it really hard to balance. I felt guilty for having to leave for pickup when everyone else was working really hard into the evenings when there was a big project. Like, I don't know how to handle this. And I didn't know who to tell that to because I didn't want to seem weak. Like, sharing those stories is actually some of the most important parts of it, of like, hey, if we were to go through this again or support a coach, so a coach at Canberra is your manager, like, if we were to support those people in supporting that person, here's what it would look like.

25:23Here's the questions to be asking. Here's some phrases that can really help settle someone's anxiety when they are coming back from their own stories rather than us as a HR team telling that. And on the same in the inverse, here's some stories that went incredibly well of someone that went out on parental leave doing one job, came back and actually had a different passion project. And so we put them onto a slightly different project or a slightly different goal. And that worked really well because it was time bound and they knew what success looked like and they could work it within their schedule and they got kind of like a goal in the net that then helped build their confidence over time and so something that we have learned is sharing those stories is some of the most impactful and lots of that doesn't come from us as a team sharing those informal playbooks it comes from we've got a parents and carers channel on slack and some of those stories are organically being shared by parents for parents that people can experience themselves so it doesn't feel formal or led by the company it feels very organic that people are sharing, hey, I'm coming back from leave and I'm really struggling with this aspect of my role.

26:25Does anyone have any guidance of what could help? And then making sure that our coaches or managers are really equipped to support through that. And they know the signs. They know how to manage that. But like I said, we haven't figured it all out. It's something we're learning as we're going. Something that we do want to really start to lean into is more of the tailored communications through the process. So that's something we're building at the moment of, you know, you've got a coachee coming back in three months time. Here's what to start thinking about. Like what projects have you got coming on the horizon that you could be giving them?

26:54Hey, you've got a coachee coming back in two weeks time. You should be checking in. Here's some conversation starters that might be helpful if you've never done this before. That's the kind of where we're going and what we want to be starting to build. That's cool. And I would imagine that with AI, some of that prompting is easier. Yeah, I think the prompting and the like how to think about things and especially I'm not a parent so like having like something to bounce with but I also think there's human connection has to be involved right like that's the part of like AI can help build out like hey AI build out a plan of like when is the best touch points to be reaching out to parents over that time but actually then collaborating with real humans who've been through the experience to make sure that it doesn't feel AI to the person experiencing it like hey here's the starting point.

27:40Now let's cheese grate that of like, what was your actual experience? And if you had received this prompt, how would it feel? And that kind of back and forth, which I actually think is the best way of working with AI, right? You start with something and then you iterate and you build on it with the humans in the loop, I think is, it really gets to something next level. Yeah, exactly.

27:57Peter Clarke:It sounds like, I mean, fundamentally, though, you have to back all this into like, Canva is a company with a culture that enables you to do all of these things, right? Which, I mean, a lot of folks like, oh, how would we do this or how would we think about doing it? And they don't actually create an environment where that's possible. Right. So even just having the platform that you're working from to be able to do these unique programs, which I mean, probably shouldn't be unique, but sound unique. Right. Because it's like, well, nobody else does this. But yeah, I mean, just having a culture that supports that, I think, is absolutely critical.

28:33Yeah. One thing we were talking about before we got started with this aspect of performance, right? And you're scaling so fast. And I know what that challenge is like, is how do you scale quickly and keep the performance high? So how have you all thought about that at Canva? I think it's something that's an ongoing evolution, I would say. I think something that we, I think in the very early days we tried to do, kind of built into how we operate. We were very goal orientated, which I think is easy to say, but quite hard to achieve in reality. And so something we tried to do early on was really building into our foundations of how we operate.

29:12Things like, for example, we had season openers. So at a season opener, it would be this big event where, bear in mind, we're mostly based in Australia then. So it's much easier when you're on one hemisphere because you can do things like Winter Wonderland as the theme when it's winter for everybody in the Southern Hemisphere. When you go global it's a bit harder because someone's celebrating summer someone's celebrating winter but it was these kind of big themed events of like winter wonderland and you would do it would be this amazing event where you'd look back at the season just gone of what had been achieved and what the goals were and what the impact of those goals were so we launched you know the canva docs product and this has been our early insight into the data like this is what's happened and it would be a big celebration of that and then you'd also be accountable for saying in the next season this is what we're going to work on and here's what we're going to achieve and it kind of created this cadence right throughout the year of this kind of public accountability, but also in this fun, quirky way that got people really engaged, that also meant people knew what was happening right across the company.

30:06Great visibility of what people were working on, what people were launching on, what we cared about, what our data were saying, all of those things in one, and making sure that it was mapped in. That kind of evolved. We still do season openers today, but it kind of evolved into more of, you know, it's really hard to do that when you're a company of 5 ,000. It's much easier to do when you're a company of 500. And those kind of things need to change and evolve. And so then over time, we brought in our growth and impact process, which is our take on a performance cycle. And then had it be the growth and impact process was more about setting personal goals of what you were going to achieve and how they laddered up to the bigger goals of the company and make sure that was on more of a cyclical version as well.

30:46So it was less about, you know, at 500 mark, telling the company or more working with a coach on what is the most impactful thing that you could be doing and working over that over time. But making sure that those systems all connect together. So there is that company visibility about what's important and what we're working on. And then the individual accountability on what matters most and what's going to drive the needle on that and helping that be the bedrock of what your performance culture is built on. It's achieving those goals. And then building a performance culture of, you know, giving great feedback on top of that.

31:16So it sits on something and feels like it's based in something that is moving the company forwards rather than feeling very personal. Yeah. I mean, most companies just, they don't do it very well. And, you know, and feedback is not, it's not really part of the process a lot of times. Right? Right. Yeah. You know, I tell this story. I was at an airport and this is a couple of years ago, but it's like the end of the year. So it's like, you know, review time. And this guy was at the airport and you could tell he was talking to his employee and he's like, hey, so, you know, we just did the review and I noticed that you rated yourself all fives.

31:53Just so you know, like getting a five is really hard. Okay. Hardly anyone in the company gets a five. Okay. So just, I just want you to know that I gave you a 4.65 on this and a 4.65 on that, which is really good. And so you're doing great. And I can't wait to kill it next year. All right. Have a good holiday. You know, and that was talk about experience for an employee. But that that was the review. And I, you know, I would bet to say that that is probably most employees experiences with reviews. Right. And did that employee get any feedback other than he shouldn't rank himself a five? Because it's really hard.

32:34And even then, I don't think, yeah. You know, but I mean, like, I don't think companies make, you know, they do a review to figure out what they should pay somebody. Right? Like, let's figure out, like, what their raise is going to be, where they're going to fit on the bell curve. That's why they do these performance reviews. They don't do it to help the employee necessarily. So I'm glad that feedback is part of your process because that's how you actually get employees better is through feedback and coaching. I can't agree more. I was going to say, I actually really like that you call your managers coaches instead of managers.

33:13I think language really matters, right? Language is so important. So coaches being managers, performance cycle being growth and impact. Like we want to focus on your growth and what your impact has been. It's not. Performance is different. It's kind of a punitive, like it's too punitive. And it's also, it's such a outdated word that just doesn't encapsulate what you actually care about and what you're trying to drive. So for example, in that experience, I think something that has become quite evident is that a lot of companies go through performance cycles as just a tick box exercise as like, oh, we should be doing performance reviews.

33:42And then they put, you know, however many people away from actually delivering on what their goal should be to do this tick box exercise that then doesn't move the company forwards. And something that we've really tried to do in all of our communications has been to say, when we do the growth and impact cycle really well, it leapfrogs the company forwards because everyone knows better what they're doing that's great, that they should continue doing. They feel really proud of what they've achieved. They know what great success looks like. And they're very aware of what they need to focus on to have better impact in the months to come.

34:13That's when it's done really well. When it's done really poorly, someone comes out feeling their work that they worked really hard on behind the scenes was unseen and unfurled. felt and undervalued. They come out feeling like their coach doesn't understand them. They come out feeling very unclear on what they can be doing moving forwards to have a better impact. Like, here's what great success and great failure look like. Make sure that you're tailoring your experiences accordingly and focusing on these things that we want to be focusing on. Because when we get this right, it has a monumental impact.

34:41I walked in our conversation the other day in the people team where two, I walked into a meeting room and two people were coming out and one of them was visibly upset, but laughing a lot. And I just said, like, what have I walked into here. And they had had this really gorgeous, honest feedback conversation of just like, hey, I really loved it when you helped me do this thing that was really hard and I'd not done before. But also when you're doing it next time, can you not like jump in and like come and save me? I don't need that. I need you to support me behind the scenes. This is what it would have looked like that was really good.

35:10And then they'd had this really gorgeous moment where they'd had a really honest conversation about what great looked like. And that was because they knew the growth and impact where conversation was coming and they'd preemptively had a great conversation. And that had both solidified their connection to each other of like, I'm supporting you and I'm in your corner, but also I want to help you grow and I'm going to be honest with you about what that looks like as a peer. That's when great success happens. That's when it becomes that kind of combination deal of a great operations and a great human experience that then propels the whole company forwards in a really meaningful way, but also it's great for the individual, right?

35:43They learn more about themselves, which everyone kind of wants to do. It can be a really great thing if done. I think you've done well. No, absolutely. Pete, were you going to say something? No, I'm just agreeing. You're just agreeing? Yeah, I'm agreeing too. I mean, Pete, what do you, I mean, you help so many different portfolio companies and there are, you know, a lot of times they're hiring their first chief people officer. I mean, obviously if you could get them a Jenny, I mean, you need to tell them how to find more Jennys. But I mean, I don't see companies really think critically sometimes about, it's like, oh, gosh, we needed to be doing our performance reviews.

36:23Like, let's put one in place. Not really like, what's the problem we're trying to solve and what's the experience? And like, let's make this something that propels the company. Like, do you see companies doing that these days? I mean, maybe it's changing. I don't know.

36:39Peter Clarke:I would say, I mean, in the Excel portfolio, everyone does everything perfectly well. outside of that no yeah i it's interesting right because the for sure i think there's just a lack of high expectations maybe or even just strategic thinking applied to the people function in general you know by most companies because it becomes a bit more of a process and a you know just a i don't know how to describe it i mean just this entity that's sort of like well this is a necessary evil, right? But not really thinking about your, as much as people love to say they are, you know, it doesn't quite come out in, you know, how they operate.

37:21Peter Clarke:And actually, I think you were, when you were asking me, I did have a question running through my head, which gets to some of what you said is when people would say that, okay, well, how do I find a Jenny, right? For us. And, you know, I love that response. Usually it's, I'll pick some high profile person and be like, I need to hire my Sheryl Sandberg. And you're like, okay, well, that's what this looked like. Because then you would say, well, how do I find a Jenny? And it's like, well, look at Jenny's background when she got hired at Canva. It's like, do you want to go that route? It took some risk on obviously the part of the founders, some creativity, some ability to see where this could possibly go.

38:02Peter Clarke:And they acted on it. Where generally most of what I get are, well, I want to hire that person now. I don't want to actually take the risk or attempt to try to find that person in a more creative way. And actually, Jan, I was going to ask you that. Has your experience in terms of your journey at Canva translated into how you guys think about hiring people at Canva? you know are there is the ability for the hiring manager to actually get a little creative or to think more opportunistically because you know inevitably you bump up against also the oh there's not enough qualified people out there right and you know the sort of death spiral of it's like we need to hire this person i'm not meeting anybody i like and you know blame the recruiting team and on we go right but you know is there sorry i'm rambling and making comments and statements rather than questions.

38:56Peter Clarke:But back to that, like... Pete likes to do that. Yeah. I love it. No, because I think there's so much in there that's so important, right? I think the first thing is like, I was at companies before I was at Canva and I had all the ideas of things that I wanted to achieve at those companies, but I wasn't in the environment where I was able to do them. Whereas at Canva, it was very different. I had fantastic founders who, you know, on like one of my very first days, I was in front of the entire like extended leadership team, which at the time was about 50%. there was a question in a Q &A that Meloncliffe turned to me and said, Jenny, what do you think?

39:30Like, you know, you have to support people. And like, they knew that I could answer it. It wasn't just like putting me on the spot for no valid reason. But like, we had had a lot of conversations on this topic that the person had asked a question about. And so they gave me a platform to speak, which gave me confidence in building my own confidence in my own abilities that I hadn't necessarily had at other companies. And then through time of, you know, how are we going to make sure that employees feel like this. Like, Jenny, what do you think? Can you go away and build us a prototype of what that could look like and come back?

40:00Like, okay, absolutely. And that kind of builds confidence over time. I talk about my time at Canberra as like really getting back on the horse in that confidence way of being built up. But also, so you have to share a lot of context with people and then you have to really put them into situations or put them on projects that they can achieve things with. And then you have to support them through that, right? That's the important bit that you, you know, you, Mellon Cliff were fantastic at going back and afforded me on projects so that it got to a really gorgeous outcome and a really great outcome.

40:26And I think that helps in identifying great talent that you might have in your organization that you aren't really even thinking about yet, but actually might be ready for that step if they have the right environment, if they are supported right. I have found the same in the people organization at Canva. We have found phenomenal talent from within our own teams who have taken big steps up and now are achieving incredible things. But it took someone really backing them and really betting on them and encouraging them and supporting them through the lows that inevitably come with growth of like, this is really hard and I don't know how to achieve this and I'm not really sure how to handle this and doing that.

40:59But also, so really looking at your own organization of who is in your company that actually could be taking that step up. And there are many, I'm telling you now, like there are many at Canva that are yet to be discovered, I'm sure of it. But also when you're looking externally, like, are you looking at differences? So Cliff kind of found me in a whole host of applicants that were phenomenal and really could have on paper done the job in a much better way than me, but what he was looking, he was sure of what he was looking for in that role. Similarly, we really try and ask our hiring managers to be creative, you know, not to look at just kind of pedigree named companies of have done this before, but actually are hungry and coming up through, you know, different organizations or actually just completely different backgrounds.

41:40So I was telling this story the other day, or someone was telling me this story the other day, which was one of our great AI researchers that we have now was when he was hired at canva stocking shelves at a supermarket but he was incredibly active on a discord community in ai research and so he's just super interested in this in a really meaningful way and having incredible impact and then the um hiring manager just reached out to him on discord and said hey have you ever thought about a career in this what does that look like would you want a conversation like really thinking outside of the box of like people that are really passionate especially in an ai world like how are people thinking differently about this because has had x amount of years experience doesn't necessarily translate to impact and i think the harmony becomes when you plug people together who have got a lot of experience also with kind of up-and-coming talent and that harmonization so we think about that a lot as a leadership level so i came in as an ea and worked my way into the people role Jack, who's our CMO, came in as a communications intern and is now the CMO.

42:45But at the same time, we have Kelly Stegelberg, who came from Zoom as their CFO and is now a Canvas CFO. And we have Simon Newton, who's our head of engineering, who came from Uber and Google. And kind of blending those backgrounds together can create really solid teams that both respects deep craft that comes from experience, but also respects kind of fresh new ideas or new ways of thinking and the harmonization is actually some of the most magical kind of outcomes come from that no yeah i love that and i think you know probably one of the common attributes that that all of you have that you were kind of getting to with the the ai person is like that passion right and and you know here here's this person and stocking shelves but they're incredibly passionate about this topic and that stuff that you can't train, right?

43:39Like it's in you, right? And the other thing that I love, you know, about just you kind of coming from a different industry hospitality, it's that, you know, the work ethic, right? You know, I don't know many people, you know, a lot of people I know have worked in restaurants, but if you, you know, if you haven't worked in a restaurant, it's really hard. It's a really hard job. And the work ethic that you have to have in restaurants and hospitality and things like that is bar none. And if you're not making it in that industry, it's just not for you. But it also says something about the determination and the drive and the strive for excellence and making an experience amazing and you have to juggle so many things in those roles.

44:24So you have to be an excellent operator. But I think many times companies go after the pedigree or they go after the perfect list of things that, you know, oh, they have to be from this company, that company, or they have to have solved this for 10 years, right? It's like, well, no, they don't. And what I've learned in my experience is that, yes, experience matters for sure. And sometimes it matters more in some roles than others, and you can't discount it. But the attributes of what makes someone successful in your organization, the DNA that scales, that is not trainable a lot of times. I think it's also the curiosity, right?

45:01I think that you spoke about the passion of that person, but also it's just a curiosity of like, well, why doesn't this work? Or why has this been done this way? You know, we were speaking about performance reviews, like, okay, coming in with a kind of, you know, it's an overused term, but kind of first principles lens on things of like, why are we doing this? What's the point? We're spending thousands of hours a year on this, which is taking away from our time building. Could we be doing something else with that time? Or is this genuinely moving the company forwards? And that kind of curiosity to ask the questions that are often unasked, but also the kind of humility to be able to say, I don't come from this background.

45:33And so this is all coming from a kind of place of seeking to understand, but why is it that we're doing this? Or why is it that we're not doing this when it might just be glaringly obvious to someone who doesn't come from that background? and if you can't articulate the why really clearly it's time to kind of rethink that process which comes from people with that kind of creative thinking or people who have never been in that space before like some of the greatest conversations that i have on our performance cycle or our comp cycle come from those conversations with engineers who are just like i'm a recipient of this process and this is how it feels and this is where i think we can improve i'm like great because you're not behind the scenes looking at this every day your fresh eyes but also there's a great conversation there of like there's all this context that you might have missed of why things happen the way they do, but also your fresh eyes can really help inform a better process.

46:17And that's that curiosity both ways that I think is such an underrated skill set that I think every company needs to be leaning into. Absolutely. Gotta love the engineers, man. They always let you know, which I love too. It is phenomenal. I love too.

46:32Peter Clarke:Key again, back to what we were saying before, it's like the top-down Canva is a culture that rewards that creativity, to call it growth and impact, to think differently. I mean, And a lot of folks talk about it, but then, you know, you're sort of gets punitively judged by whatever decision you made if it didn't happen to fit, you know, what people expected. Right. So I think we were having that conversation on another podcast. We really don't reward creativity, you know, fail fast, but not too much. And or, you know, again, just don't take too much of a risk. So if you can create a culture, though, where people are comfortable with that, I think you can get outsized returns.

47:13Which usually comes from leadership, right? Like, I think that's something that Mel and Cliff have really tried to build into the culture at Canva from the very, very early days. Not only the culture comes from everyone, but also the great ideas come from everyone. And that the status quo is there to be kind of looked at and understood, but not to be replicated. It's not there as a playbook. It's there as a, here's what might have worked for XYZ companies. that's not to say it will work at Canberra. Let's think about this a bit differently of goals first of what are we trying to achieve and then build our own thing with kind of best practices or first principles in mind, but kind of that creativity that allows some really phenomenal ideas to shine through.

47:51We were talking about this before the show started, so I want to make sure that we talk about it. But you've talked a lot about caring for employees during this conversation and whether that's through them coming back from leave. But you also talked about this aspect of like championing things around domestic violence. And I don't know many companies of any that talk about stick violence, like, you know, because it's maybe uncomfortable and people don't want to assume. But tell me more about that. I'd love to hear and learn about, you know, just how you think about that at Canva. Yeah. So this came actually through one of our Fix-It forms.

48:27So in a Fix-It form, someone had said, so we have three big programs that run at Canva at the moment that we're building a few more, but one is grief and loss, one is family domestic violence, and one is cancer support or long illness support. The Fix-It form came in from someone who had lost their wife and were struggling to kind of re-acclimatise back to work after that experience and said, hey, I had an okay experience at Canva through this, but I think we can do a lot better at this. And I don't think we are talking about this enough. And it was this gorgeous Fix-It form that was so helpful of like, here's my experience and here's where I think we've got a gap that we could improve on.

49:03And so we worked together with the people team and that individual to create the grief and loss guide, which was both for someone who might be experiencing grief and loss, but also as a coach who might be supporting someone through grief and loss. Because if you've not supported someone through that moment, you often don't know how to handle it. And this was pre-ChatGBT. So there's no like, hey, what do I do to handle this? It was either leverage your community around you or kind of blunder your way through it and hope for the best and just rely on gut instinct. And so we created this playbook with that person, but also with anyone else who had gone through grief or loss that was able to then input into the playbook of, you know, people said to me, oh, if you need anything, just reach out.

49:42And then everyone who had experienced it said, that's actually one of the worst things you can say because it puts another thing on my plate to be starting to do. And so there was a lot of that kind of like, this might sound helpful, but actually how it's interpreted is this. What instead could be really helpful is this. And so it started with that. We created this playbook of it can be leveraged anytime by anyone in and out of Canva. And then we open sourced it. So you can find it on the internet. You can find this anywhere because what we also thought was, you know, I came from a much smaller organization before Canva and there was no way that I had the skills or the people in my team or the time to be able to build something like that.

50:18What I needed was the resource. And so we have incredibly thoughtful people at Canva that put this great thing together. And when other companies were reaching out to say, hey, what do you do in this instance? It kind of felt nonsensical to hold that behind kind of closed doors. And so we've open sourced it, able to be found. Similarly, we then did the same with family domestic violence. I think when you look at the statistics on family domestic violence, every single person will know someone who's going through this, whether you know it or not. I think it's just a horrible fact that we have to navigate.

50:45And that is such an unknown fact too. And so when I started talking about family domestic violence and supporting people through that experience. We did the same. We created a similar playbook with the team who had gone through this, who were comfortable to work with us on it. There were so many conversations of, oh, but that wouldn't happen. We don't have anyone at Canva going through that, right? Well, of course we do. We're a 5 ,500 person organisation. Of course you do. But also there's a learning aspect of this happens to just about everyone, every level, every gender, every role, every location.

51:17There is nowhere that is kind of exempt from this and actually shining a light on that to say, this could be happening anywhere. Here's what to look out for. Here's how to start to have those conversations if you think something is off, or here's how to create a space where people might feel comfortable to raise this with you. And then here's how to support through it. Don't be pushing on people. Don't be doing this. Instead, here's what you can do to provide that safe experience. And here's what to do. Here's what Canva provides. Here's the leave we provide. Here's the subsidies we provide. Here's what you can do to help.

51:46And actually just making that an easier thing to navigate when you are going through it, but you don't know who to tell and you don't know how to keep it confidential, but also who to go to. And those kind of hard moments are not shying away from those hard moments as an organisation, actually shining more of a light on those moments to say, this happens, whether we like it or not, this is how to navigate it the best we possibly can to support our people. And here's what it means for the work and how to be kind and considerate of what that might mean, while also supporting the team around this person and keeping things confidential, et cetera, et cetera.

52:17I think those moments are really hard moments, but they are some that exhibit your culture more than anything else and will stay with people for their whole lives, right? Like way past the doors of your organization. Totally. I mean, it's, and I, you know, it's interesting because I, I, I didn't shy away from, from those things either, but I think maybe a lot of people in our position do because, you know, they're worried about the risk that it may cause or, you know, don't want to get into like a legal situation or whatever it might be. Or you just don't know how to talk about it, right? You don't even know how to start to respectfully talk about it.

52:53Yeah, right. But life happens and it's happening to all of us all the time. And if you can figure out how to allow your employees to be successful at every point of their life, right? Yeah. And understanding that there's going to be ups and downs with those things. But if you make your organization this amazing place to be at and to be from, like you said, those experiences are things that they will never forget. And they'll hold on them in their hearts forever. And guess what? They'll tell the rest of the world about it. And it's not a bad thing, right? Exactly. I also think there's a risk. There's a risk in doing everything, right?

53:36there's also a risk in not talking about it which we experienced with the um support guides that we're putting together for kind of chronic illness or cancer diagnoses or people going through experiences like a stroke for example the reason that one came about was because i got a message on slack from an employee who said uh i really think we can do better in supporting people who are going through cancer diagnosis here's my experience here's kind of what i'm dealing with i'm running out of leave here's all these things and i looked through their case and i thought this is awful because what they haven't been able to get in touch with is the fact that we have a lot more support that they could have tapped into that they didn't know about.

54:11And so there was a kind of moment of not talking about it actually was the risk because this person was going through a really isolating experience that they were finding really hard and they didn't know the support that was available to them. And by us not talking about it, that was, in my mind, a much greater risk of this person navigating this alone that actually far outweighed any risk that might come from talking about it. Yeah, so true. Well, I'm so glad you got to come on the show. I have one more favor for you. We always ask our guests to leave our listeners with something inspiring. You've left us with many inspiring things, but what's the one thing you want people thinking about as they go through their week?

54:49Oh, goodness. Something inspiring is quite a total order. I know. Sorry. No, it's a wonderful question. I think for me, it's that if you, So I think that it really doubles down on the conversation that we're having earlier. If you are an organization, where are you looking for your talent? Are you looking for it internally? Are you looking for the hidden gems that might be in your organization that just need a kind of step up or need the next project or need to know that someone believes that they can achieve something? and then on the flip side if you are someone looking for your next role or your next thing to really sink your teeth into how are you thinking about it a bit differently what are you passionate about what are you curious about you know not not necessarily thinking about careers just as linear or next step up or next thing but actually what would drive you to be the most passionate version of yourself or the most curious version of yourself that could allow you to do some incredible work that might not be the the kind of logical next step on paper but actually might really align with what you want to achieve at a company that you really want to achieve it with and thinking just a little bit differently about talent, both in how organizations view it, but also how we as individuals view it and our next step or our next kind of impact that we want to have.

55:54Yeah, do what Jenny did, y 'all. Like, go after it.

55:59Peter Clarke:Build a website. Build a website. Get noticed. Also, find the thing that you're really passionate about, right? I couldn't have done that unless I was really passionate about it. I think, like, find that passion and then harness everything you've got into it. I love it. Jenny, I'm so glad you got to come on the show. Thank you so, so, so much. I know our listeners are going to love this episode. So thank you. Thank you. It was a great conversation. I really appreciate you both. Thanks for listening to TruthWorks.