Apple's Original Evangelist, Guy Kawasaki: Why Most Founders Fail Before They Even Pitch

0:00Is there like one or two things that set these people apart from everybody else? And if so, what do you think it is? I can only tell you that there's some pattern recognition going on there. And the first thing that I noticed is that these people all had a growth mindset. And there's two kinds of ways to grow. One is to...

0:23What would happen if we just told the truth? Welcome to TruthWorks, where we dig into the nitty-gritty of leadership and work. And what needs to change. I'm Jessica Neal. And I'm Patti McCord. Our journey together started in HR, but trust us, it's evolved into something wild, honest, and, well, a bit rebellious. So throw out the handbook. We're here to redefine rules to work for us, not against us. Let's dive into another episode.

1:00Hi, everyone. Welcome to another episode of TruthWorks. I'm Jessica Neal, your host. And today I'm here with a very special guest who I am excited to talk about. This person may have been the first ever chief evangelist. And he's going to tell us all about what that is. I'm not sure. Wait, wait, wait. You know, there was Jesus before me, right? Just just clarify. He really was probably the first evangelist ever. True. But you're going to tell us what that's all about, Guy. And I'm sure many of our listeners know who Guy Kawasaki is, but Guy is on the podcast today. He now is the chief evangelist at Canva, which is something I use daily and love.

1:47And you have written Wiser Guy, Think Remarkable, and you also have a podcast. That is a very good summary of my entire life in 60 seconds, yes. Well, I'm trying to do it quickly because, you know, your time is precious. I, you know, first of all, I just want to back up and kind of go back to the early days of your first chief evangelist job. And that was at Apple with Macintosh, which had to be incredibly fascinating. Well, I worked at Apple from 1983 to 1987. I was actually the second software evangelist. And our job was to convince people to write Macintosh software and to create Macintosh hardware peripherals.

2:34Now, evangelism comes from a word, Greek word, meaning bringing the good news. So what we did as Macintosh software evangelists was we brought the good news of why developing for Macintosh was a smart thing to do. Yeah, so that's how I got my start in evangelism. And now I'm the chief evangelist of Canva. And the good news with Canva is that it has enabled people to become better communicators because it has democratized design. Yeah. Well, I think you and I share something in common, which I started this podcast to tell the truth about work. Right. And I think you also like to tell the truth.

3:13And you work in the truth around leadership and communication. And I love how you talk about like grit. But, you know, you've sort of become this well-knowing person who, you know, has gone off and really made an impact in the world of not only evangelism, but leadership and startups. And it's just been so impactful what you've done. So how did that all happen? Basically, blind, dumb shit luck. I wish I could tell you I had a plan and, you know, that I majored in psychology because I knew I wanted to be in, you know, in behavioral economics or, you know, something like that or figure out consumer behavior.

3:59But the truth is I picked psychology as a college major because it was the easiest major I could find at the school. I was Asian American, mid-70s. And so your parents wanted you to be a doctor, lawyer or dentist. and I thought I wanted to be a doctor. I took a class that toured a medical hospital. I mean, medical hospital, that's redundant. That toured a hospital. And on the first day of that class, I fainted. So I figured, okay, guy, you're not going to be a doctor. And then I read the dentists have the highest percentage of suicide. So I crossed off dentistry. So all that was left was law. And after I graduated, I went to law school for a grand total of two weeks and quit because I couldn't stand it.

4:44And believe it or not, I really wanted to be an entrepreneur and start a business. So the following year, I entered UCLA in the MBA program. That program has every Friday off. I don't know if that's still true, but I had every Friday off. And I come from a lower middle income family. So I got a part-time job in the jewelry business of things. I was literally counting and schlepping diamonds. And after I graduated with my MBA, I went into the jewelry business when all my friends were going to Wells Fargo and Accenture and JP Morgan and Kinsey, all those kinds of places. But in the jewelry business, I truly learned how to sell.

5:27And when you learn how to sell, that is a lifelong skill that I use to become an evangelist for Apple. Yeah. So what it, okay. I've heard you talk about this idea of evangelism and the perfect pitch. And I think, I don't know, I mean, being a consumer of these pitches in business and in life, not many people know how to do it well, I think, because I'm like, I get bored and I'm like, okay, you know, when can this meeting be done? But what's the secret? it? Well, the secret is what I call Guy's golden touch. And Guy's golden touch is not that whatever I touch turns to gold. Guy's golden touch is whatever is gold, Guy touches.

6:18So what I'm trying to tell you is the key to evangelism and pitching is that you're evangelizing or pitching something great because it is easy to pitch or evangelize something great. And it is very hard to pitch or evangelize shit. So don't picture evangelize shit. What if you don't have a choice? Well, you always have choices. I mean, you know, that's easy for me to say if I was a single mom and, you know, I had to have this job and I couldn't, okay, I understand that. If you have the choice, you got to find or create something great because if you find or create something great, everything else is easy.

6:57Well, I mean, it's relatively easy. Yeah. You know, evangelism is just one way to succeed. There are other ways to succeed. I'm not saying it's the be-all and end-all. It is but one path. So how is it that you have been able to stay so relevant throughout all of these technical evolutions? I might debate you that I'm relevant. Very relevant. Well, I mean, thank you very much. You know, again, to burst a bubble, I had no plan. You know, I fell in love with Apple II. Apple II led me to personal computing. Personal computing led me to Macintosh. Macintosh led me to software. And software led me to the internet.

7:46Internet led me to social media. Along the way, I also became a writer. And, you know, I just fall in love with stuff. I fell in love recently with a product called Signal. And I just wrote a new book about Signal because I think Signal is such a great piece of software. And it is so essential for the survival of democracy. So I'm basically telling you I had no plan. I just fall in love with stuff and I just pursue whatever interests me. Which I think is a great way to be. I didn't really have a plan either. I grew up at Netflix and I kind of got lucky in doing that and became the CHRO. and, you know, learned a ton, but yeah, kind of got lucky.

8:32Didn't have a plan around that. But which I, you know, when people ask me, did you have a plan? I always feel bad that I didn't. Do you feel bad that you didn't or no? You don't care. You know, I feel like like I look back and I'm like, maybe I should have like been a little bit more intentional, but I don't know. I mean, You know, I know a lot of miserable people who are intentionals. It's so true. It's so true. Well, so let's talk about your writing a little bit because you have Wiser Guy, which is a clever title, Wiser Guy. Tell us a little bit about that and then tell us a little bit about Think Remarkable.

9:09Well, I have a podcast called Remarkable People and it is now almost six years old. This is a podcast whose goal is to sort of suck the information and inspiration out of remarkable people to help my listeners also become remarkable. So this podcast is not Guy pontificating about what it takes to be great. This is a podcast with Guy trying to get that information out of other remarkable people. So my guests have been people like Jane Goodall, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Steve Wolfram, Steve Wozniak, Tony Fauci, Angela Duckworth, Margaret Atwood, let's see, Katie Milkman, Bob Cialdini, David Ocker, I hope for you, Carol Dweck, the mother of the growth mindset.

9:57it. So I decided that I had all this knowledge in 300 episodes, which is 300 hours and 6 ,000 pages of transcripts, and no one was going to listen to all that and read all that. So I should distill the best lessons and make it into a book. And that book is called Think Remarkable. So that That is a digestion of all the wisdom that I learned from my podcast. Now, Wiser Guy is a completely different book. Wiser Guy is more like a collection of stories in my life that influenced and taught me lessons. But then the first version of that was called Wise Guy, and that was all my stories. And then after this podcast, I made Wiser Guy because I became wiser with not just my stories, but the stories from my podcast.

10:54So Wise Guy is all me. Wiser Guy is the combination of me and my guests. And then the last book that I'm written, it comes out. I don't know when this is coming out, but it's coming out on January 27th, 2026. And it is called Everybody Has Something to Hide. Why and how do you signal to preserve your privacy and your well-being and, you know, just general goodness? So, yeah, which is important. I mean, especially these days. So I want to go back to the remarkable people. What is it about because you just listed off so many names of people that we all know who are quite remarkable. And I talked to a lot of remarkable people like yourself on this podcast.

11:41But is there like one or two things that set these people apart from everybody else? And if so, what do you think it is? I can only tell you that there's some pattern recognition going on there. And the first thing that I noticed is that these people all had a growth mindset. And there's two kinds of ways to grow. One is to, you know, you fall in love with something very early in your life and you knowledgeable about it. And the world's greatest example of that is Jane Goodall, because at, I don't know, five years old, she fell in love with animals. And then for the next 85 years, she, you know, just kept on that growth path.

12:19There are other people who start in one field and completely change, but everybody who's remarkable has a growth mindset. Now, the opposite of the growth mindset is a fixed mindset. And there's two kinds of fixed mindset. One is a fixed mindset that says, I cannot learn anything new. I am stuck. I am what I am. I cannot improve, which is kind of sad. But another kind of fixed mindset is, I am so freaking brilliant right now. I don't need to change. I don't need to do anything. And that's even worse kind of fixed mindset. And so they all have a fixed mindset. I mean, they all have a growth mindset.

12:57Now, if you have a growth mindset, one of the ramifications is that you better have a grit mindset too, because if you are willing to grow, you're probably not going to be successful immediately. So you need grit to keep coming back after you lose, after you fail, after, you know, things don't go easily. So you need growth and you need grit. And I think those are the two common points of remarkable people. Yeah, I think I heard you say something like on your tombstone would be growth, grit, and grave or something? Well, you know, I love alliteration and I love tricolons. So, you know, I would say that the final chapter for Remarkable People is grace.

13:40So, right. So you grow, you persevere with grit. And at the last part of your career, it's about grace, which is taking the high road, which is about helping other people, which is about paying back society. You know, there are quite a few people right now most of them worth billions of dollars. They absolutely have zero grace. They take the low road. Everything is a zero-sum game for them. All they want to do is make crypto successful and ensure low long-term capital gains. I mean, that's not exactly the high road. No, it's not. Do you think, because I don't know, I see a lot of those people around in my life as well.

14:22And I'm a believer in karma and you get back what you give. Do you believe in that too? Or I think it kind of always comes back, but sometimes it takes a little long. I may get this factually wrong, but I think the concept came from Nietzsche. And the concept is certain. Someone will fact check me on your podcast. But the concept, it had to do with the belief or disbelief in the existence of God. And so the argument is that, you know, yeah, God may or may not exist. But if he, or I believe God is a woman, if she exists, it would be much better if you led a godly life so that when you die, you're not, you know, sent to hell for eternity.

15:12And if she does not exist, but you thought she did exist and you behaved in a godly manner. So what? You had a better life anyway. So completely rationally. What do you got to lose? You got a lot to lose on the other side. Exactly. So why take a chance, you know, lead a good life. And then at least, at least, you know, you got your bases covered. So that was kind of my theory. No, I think it's a great theory. I am just curious. Why do you think God's a woman? Because, well, maybe it's more wishful thinking than anything. Because I, listen, we're talking in 2026 right now, right? I mean, it's hard to not see through all the bullshit and say, you know what?

15:58Men have been running this world for about 2000 something years and they totally screwed it up. So now I think we should give women a chance to run the world. I think they should run every corporation, every country. I think it'll be a better world. So that if you follow that line of thinking, like, why not have a woman be God? God would have a much better way. If God were a woman, I think the world would be an even better place. Although you could make the case that God is omniscient, omnipotent, and wise and all that. So gender doesn't matter. But I would, like, why take a chance? I would rather have a female God.

16:33Love it. And I don't disagree. I hadn't really thought about it before. But now that I'm thinking about it, I'm like, I don't, I agree with that. Okay. Not to get on the woman track, but since I am one, I'll ask. It's still, we've made some progress getting up there. You talked about we should be running every corporation. There's been some progress made, but like we still, if you look at like women CEOs, the numbers are pretty dismal. And what do you think that's about? When will it change? And as you said, we're in 2026. Well, one explanation is that women are inherently smarter. So they have figured out that the things that women do are ultimately more important than running a company and making a lot of money.

17:25So that's one explanation. The other explanation is that we are living in a simulation that God, the woman, is running. And if you look at this simulation we're living in, the only conclusion you can come to is that God, she truly has a sense of humor because you just cannot make this shit up. I know people who write mysteries and thrillers, New York Times bestsellers. And I said, if you went to your publisher and said, I'm going to write this mystery and thriller, this guy who was a failed real estate tycoon starts a TV program. and then he becomes president and then he puts in charge the department of education someone who ran a wrestling entertainment place and you know then he takes a insurance lawyer and makes her attorney general and you know and and he said the publisher would laugh at you they would say this this book is not possible well i guess she does have a sense of humor so we'll shift a little But you advise all kinds of founders and leaders.

18:44And so do I. And there's some pattern recognition that you talked about with these remarkable people. But what do you see as some of the major shortcomings that founders have? And even we could extend this to leaders. But the founder role is such a crucial role. And I'm in venture capital now and invest in companies. And when they've got a good head on their shoulders, it tends to go pretty well. And when they don't, it tends to, you know. Yeah, I would, Jessica, I would make the case that it is very hard to figure out who has a good head on his or her shoulders at the time you have to make the investment decision.

19:32And yes, you know, we can look back and say, yeah, we knew Steve Jobs would be successful. We knew Jeff Bezos would be successful. We knew Mark Zuckerberg would be successful because we're venture capitalists and we're omniscient and omnipotent. So we know how to pick winners. Well, then you could ask that venture capital, well, how come you invested in Theranos then? You know, your two investors are now in jail. Like you're so smart. Like, wow, what happened there? And the venture capitalists will say, I told my dumb ass partners not to do that deal. So, you know, I think a lot of it, like if in a rare moment of humility, let me tell you, as an investor, I'm probably about three for 20.

20:11So don't get me wrong. But as far as I can tell, and I also learned this from Michael Moritz, the Sequoia Capital partner, that the richest vein for tech startups anyway is a guy and a gal, two guys in a garage, in a dorm room. And they build the product that they want to use. You know, Woz and Jobs, they build an Apple one because they want to use an Apple one. Not because they saw a forecast from McKinsey or Forrester or, you know, Accenture or whatever. They built the product that they want to use. Zuckerberg builds a social media platform that he wants to use. You know, just go down the line.

20:53All these people build products they want to use. And come to find out they're not the only two nutcases in the world that want to use them. Now, you could say, well, if you build a product that you want to use, how do you know there's anybody else? Well, I would make the case that if you build a product based on your perception or your research into the market, I would debate that there's any more certainty that there's really a market for that product. So at least when you build a product that you want to use, at least you know there's one user in the world. And I kind of use that for my writing style.

21:27I write the book that I would like to read. And I got to tell you, as a podcaster, you probably noticed too, I get about, I think I get about 10 pitches a day to be on my podcast, right? And I got to tell you that when I, many people send me their book and when I pick up their book and I look at their book and it is like pages and pages and pages of paragraphs. and there is no headings, there are no subheadings, there are no bullets. And it's like, I just got to, it's like reading War and Peace, only it's nonfiction. And I look at this, honestly, honestly, I look at people's book and I reject them just based on the formatting.

22:11I just, it's just too painful for me to dig through all that. And then, you know, there's a lot of books from academics and it's like, it's, it's 150 page book with 75 pages in the back of citations. I tell them all, you know, like, why do you have one third of your book is citations and footnotes? And they say, well, that's how we do it. You know, academic responsibility. And I said, you understand that absolutely nobody goes back there and says, let me go back to this original, you know, New England Journal of Medicine article about the, impact of lorazopram on back aches. And I'm like, nope.

22:50Why are you wasting people's space and time? But anyway. That's so funny, but true. So what is the advice you're giving these days on whether it's to Canva or other organizations on how to navigate scaling, failing, learning? What kind of advice are you giving? You know, well, it starts off with, you know, build the product that you would want to use. That's number one. Number two is like you got to then not only you want to use, you got to eat your own dog food. I don't know about you, Jessica, but I see so many products that I look at it and I say, you must not use your own product. It is freaking impossible that you use your own browser.

23:43And, you know, for example, let's just take an easy example. Like, I look at the system settings of Macintosh, right? And I look at that and I say, how does anybody navigate the system settings of Apple? Okay, so you're a podcaster, right? So theoretically, you and I, we're smart enough to shut off our phone so it doesn't ring right now. We're on this podcast, right? It's the only way I have figured out, there's two ways you can do it, really. One is turn off your phone. The other is to put it in a Faraday bag, right? And, you know, yet I know at some level, you know, I can turn down the volume of the ringer.

24:23I can turn on do not disturb. I can turn on sleep mode. I can do all this. And then I do all that. And then in the middle of the podcast, my wife's call rings through. And I'm like, oh, because she's an emergency contact. Because, you know what? And then, so then I spend like, you know, all this time silencing my phone for my podcast. And then for the next five days, I'm trying to figure out, so how did I silence my phone? Was it the ringer? Was it the do not disturb? Was it the airplane mode? And I cannot get it back to where it was. So, you know, I mean, does Tim Cook have somebody who customizes his phone whenever he goes into a meeting?

25:04And then when he comes out, is there, take my phone back, return it to where it was. I mean, I just don't understand it. I give you another example. So you got me started. I'm imagining Tim Cook doing this. It's funny. So I read this article about how this startup called 11 Labs or something, right? Has this ability where you upload recordings of your voice and then it can train it. So you could have a fake guy. So, you know, I can just put in text or my producer can put in text and it'll be a very good facsimile of me reading the text. Like that is a very useful thing. So I go through this process.

25:42I upload two hours and then, you know, all these clips. So it gets trained and I use the track from my studio using, you know, a great location with a great mic and all that. So I do all that. I figure, man, I've got this wired because I have really high quality data to train the model. Yeah. So I do all that. And then the last step is, okay, so now you have to prove that the person you uploaded is really you. Okay. I mean, I can understand that. You know, what if I get like, you know, I get clips from, I don't know. Yeah. Like Matthew McConaughey. Or Musk. And I say, yeah, Matthew McConaughey.

26:24I'm now going to sell Lincoln Mercury. So anyway, so I do all that. And it says, okay, now you got to validate that is your own. So now you need to repeat these sentences so that we can compare your live recording to the clips. Okay. And they give you four chances to do that. And I failed. And it's me. I promise you, I uploaded my clips and I am reading the sentence you say. I thought, okay, so maybe it's because I'm using the built-in microphone on the MacBook and I used the high OPR 40 before. So I don't have a high OPR 40 with me. I'm in Hawaii. So I use this mic now. So now I figure, well, sure, MV7 Plus is close enough to high OPR 40.

27:12So then I do the test with this mic and I still fail. So after so many attempts, it says you tried too much. you cannot try for another 24 hours. So now I'm saying, like, what is going to change in the next 24 hours that is now going to be that my live voice authenticates to my clips? What's going to change in 24 hours? And I look at that. I said, so, you know, I mean, did somebody actually go through the process of this company of trying to hone your voice and trying to authenticate yourself? I don't know. I just, I don't know. not. But you know, it's, it's such a good point that you bring up because I don't think enough companies use their own products.

27:56Like they don't understand the experience and you, you can see this when you have an issue, right? And because there's no way in the world that that founder would want you, especially you to have that experience, right? So, you know, okay, we're going to shift a little bit. We're going to keep it on technology, but we have to talk about AI. And I'd love to get your thoughts. And you mentioned the company that you're in love with right now, Signal, and you're writing this new book about how to protect or hide and everybody's hiding something or has something that they want to hide. Talk to us a little bit about this.

28:37Like what are you thinking is important now? What's going to be important in a few years? Can you narrow it down? Like important in what regard? Like important for us to think about as consumers of AI, important in terms of the impact that's going to happen in the next year, in the next few years. Well, you know, I think that AI is a humongous deal. I think it is more important than probably anything. I mean, probably, I think it's a bigger deal than the industrial revolution, the internet revolution, the computer revolution. I am a total believer in AI. I know that there are things that can go bad, but things can go bad in every other revolution, too.