Ex-Google HR Boss & CHRO At Oura: Why Most Companies get People Completely Wrong!

24:17And there's other companies out there that your competitors are going to do that. And so, you know, you ought to take advantage of it. I think that looks very different at different scales. And if you get to the scale that Google's at right now, the biggest lever might be, how do you just make all this work as smoothly as possible? And it does become much more operational. But I think for companies that are in building stages, if you've got too much brainpower on what's our benefits platform going to be and how do you do that, you're not focused in the right place. And you want people who are on the CEO staff and or whatever those seats of decision making are, who are in the room and are not just focused on the people questions, but are really engaging on what are we trying to do as a business and why are these the choices that we're talking about making?

25:10And then how do we translate that into people strategy? And then how do we operationalize it? But if it's a pure order taker, you just miss opportunities to have high leverage discussions earlier. Yeah. I was curious. I have a question for both of you because I've never been in the HR leader seat. When you're considering an opportunity like an Aura or, Jessica, you're working with Reed, how do you interview the CEO to make sure that they understand the value of the people organization and how you think it works best? What do you look for?

25:51Jeff Markowitz:Do you want to go, Judy? Go ahead.

25:56I have some questions that I always ask myself and make sure that I get answered during the process. I mean, when I think about, is this a company I want to join and is this a role I want to take right now? My first thing is about the business. Is this a business that has potential to grow? Is it going to be interesting? Like, are we solving something that is fun and that is important and I can get excited about. Because I know I'm going to spend a lot of time on it. I'm going to spend a lot of energy on it. And it better be something that I feel like is worth doing. So that's thing one. Thing two is, does the business require a miracle for the technology to actually work?

26:35Like, are we at a place where this is actually about operations rather than about science or inventing? Because for me, that's a better stage to be at. And the third thing is, is the CEO somebody who is going to take my advice at least some of the time? And having those conversations during the interview process and getting into a little bit of sparring about like, oh, you think that's how that works? Well, let's talk about that. And have you thought about this perspective? I can find during those interview processes, both with the CEO and then also with members of the leadership team, I can get a pretty good sense of what is that dynamic going to be like?

27:11And I just, you know, I wouldn't be interested and I frankly wouldn't be that good in a situation where what they want me to do is do a really good job of like running payroll and throwing parties. Like God bless the people who are good at that. It's not me. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to, I'm not good at that either. I'm going to be all involved in what

27:28Jeff Markowitz:the business plan is. I hate, I don't know, but I hate the parties, right? I don't know. Everybody like them and I, but I hate them. I'm like, I don't want to go to another party. Just get some work done. I don't know. I'm, but I'm old and bitter, but, um, but I think you're, I think you're right, Judy. I think, um, you know, and I, I, I knew this, you know, I knew cause I worked at Netflix and I grew up there and it was a place where HR was part of the strategy. And, and so I knew if I was going to leave there, I wanted that to be the case. And, you know, when I went to Coursera, I think they did really want it, but the two founders just couldn't.

28:14Jeff Markowitz:They just weren't capable. So I think I got much better at digging into not just the desire, because you're not going to meet a founder or a CEO that says these things aren't important. They're all going to say that they're important. I think the difference is that, to your point, are they going to be open to your advice and your feedback, but also are they going to be willing to do the work? Because part of your success is that they have to do these things. They have to live these things. They have to be these things because if they aren't, then nobody else is going to do them. And then you're the HR lady coming around saying, come on everybody.

28:57Jeff Markowitz:And we talked about context, not control, but nobody does it at the senior level. So nobody else is going to do it. So I think I got really good at like doing that sparring and sort of seeing what it would be like in real life, but really kind of pulling that thread to really get down to the core of, well, what, when, when you say that, what do you actually do? How do you do it? How does it play out in your day to day? How does it play out in your meetings, in your agendas and your strategy? Because, again, be it like it or not, they're a big reason of you being able to be successful in your role.

29:32Jeff Markowitz:And they have to be an amazing partner to you. How did you test for it, Judy, at Aura? Yeah. A lot of conversations. And, you know, Tom and I got into a discussion. Argument is too strong a word, but. Debate. We did a bit of a debate about about compensation plans and how do you think about using cash and equity and different mixes and, you know, what have they done so far and what's appropriate for the stage. And it was and for me, it showed me that he I mean, he was digging in on this stuff in part because he didn't have an HR partner at that time because they'd already had a transition. But so that showed me, OK, this is a guy who's willing to get into the details.

30:20He is willing to learn this stuff. He's also willing to listen. And, you know, we're going to, we're going to, you know, we're not really making a decision here, but, but that, that discussion showed me he cares about it. He's thinking about why it's important. He's doing the legwork. He's thinking, he's willing to think a few moves ahead about not just how do you band-aid it now, but what might be the long-term implications of picking one path versus another. and you know something else that came out during that was uh and you know jesse he talks he goes and seeks out other opinions and i think that is so important and that's how i met you for all yeah

31:00Jeff Markowitz:we talked about compensation so i think uh woody uh tcb connected me with tom and and then tom brought judy into the the conversation and we had a wait three of us had a little chat about compensation. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you can learn from your own experiences and your own scars, but you learn so much faster if you can get other people's scars and experiences into the mix as well. And so having that community is so useful. Yes. But what I love about that, Judy, and I think it's something that I tried to do, but you were sort of simulating what it would be like to work through a problem together.

31:38Jeff Markowitz:Yeah. Right. And not an obvious problem and a hard problem and an important one. And so I think that for the listeners, that's an important thing to do no matter what role it is, whether it's CHRO or others, because the more you can simulate what it's really like to work together, the better sense you're going to have of what it's going to be like in reality. Jeff, I have a question for you because, and I think Judy will want to know this too. You have seen many companies hire chief people officers, CHROs, whatever you want to call them. And there is a very high turnover in these roles, right?

32:18Jeff Markowitz:What is your theory on that? I want to know. That's pretty general because it's so company specific. Yeah. But the organ rejection on these roles is pretty high. So, you know, I did a client many years ago that you learn a lot from all of your clients in terms of how they do things, I found this person had hired a senior HR leader. They didn't work out and they came to us for help. And I said, so tell me why it didn't work out over different kinds of questions. And they said something which I see is fairly common around people leaders is that this person brought their toolkit with them and they felt that their toolkit would work.

33:07it was transferable within different organizations and maybe parts of it were, but it really, it wasn't in this case. And I see a lot of that where I've seen a lot of that. It's like, well, this is how we did it here. And this is our toolkit and we're going to do the same kinds of things. And then the people function, you can't be that. You have to be adaptable and you have to be willing to grow your own skillset, your own toolkit. Well, yeah.

33:35Jeff Markowitz:And I think you have to think uniquely and critically about whatever business you're in. And you're building for that, not for this other thing. I mean, it would be silly to think that the Netflix culture is that we could just do that in any company. It worked because it worked for us. It doesn't mean that all of those things are going to work for everybody else. And you just can't have the playbook approach. You got to really learn your business and build things that are going to solve problems for your company, for your people. Yeah, go ahead, Judy. I think that's the strategic HR point. If you've got somebody who comes in with a playbook and says, okay, I'm going to do this now, that's kind of the cranking the operational side.

34:20And if you're in a situation that's not exactly like the one that you were in before, you need to be able to read the room and you need to be able to understand what are the business problems we're trying to solve here? And so which parts of this toolkit do I need? And which things do I need to find somewhere else? Because I don't know how to do them yet. I think there's another one too, which is, and it's back to the questions that you ask coming in the door and really trying to understand the simulated conversations that you talked about, Jessica, is I find that sometimes people leaders want that relationship with the CEO to be something that maybe the CEO, is just where the organization just doesn't want and they think they see it and they think they can turn it once they get in, but then they're not able to for maybe not their own fault, but then they keep trying and it's just a misfit.

35:27Yeah.

35:28Jeff Markowitz:No, the chemistry between the CEO, founder and this role is just, I mean, it has to be there. And when it's not, it just is very short-lived. And it doesn't mean either person's not great, right? I mean, it could be that the CEO is great. It could be that the CHRO is great. It just doesn't mesh. And this role, I want to know your thoughts on this too, Judy, because this role has such a interesting element to it because you really are telling the CEO, the founder, the things that nobody else is going to tell them. And there's just this delicate, you know, balance of being the mirror and the bearer of that and carrying a lot of the weight of all the things that maybe you should tell them.

36:19Jeff Markowitz:Maybe you shouldn't tell them today, but, you know, maybe you're going to tell them tomorrow. But how do you navigate that? And how do you think about that? Yeah, it's, I mean, one of the, I think of the job as being, it's like the emperor's fashion consultant and you got to be the one to constantly tell him he's got no clothes. Yeah. But, but it's a repeated game. And so how do you build that relationship and how do you, like, what do you ground that in? And I think it's really important to have it grounded in, we want the same things. We want this company to be a smashing success. And I think, especially for this role, being able to honestly be low ego.

36:56And it is not about me. I actually, like, I just want this thing to be successful. Let's figure out how to make that happen. And so being able to have that, it's a funny balance because you've got to have the confidence of, I've seen these things. I've got a big toolkit. I know how to use it. And also I'm super low ego about it. Like that can be a hard balance to carry off. But I think it's tremendously important. And again, that goes back to, this is not about, you can't have a people strategy that's separate from the business strategy. This is all about what do we need to do short-term and long-term to enable this business to be successful?

37:36And how do we do all the people things in service of that?

37:40Jeff Markowitz:And sometimes, you know, they're just not ready for it, you know? And, you know, you got to know No one to hold them, no one to fold them. And I think that's part of the toolkit too. How do you, how do you care? Is this one where you carry it through what is going to be just a little bit of a rough patch? Or is this one that's not going to be winnable? And how do you make that decision? Yeah. And you got to pick the hills you're going to die on. Because there's so many and you can't die on them all. Yeah. How do you both create? I'm fascinated by the way businesses well Silicon Valley tech has transformed and it's everybody always has to be on their best behavior you have to be really careful walking around organizations there's a lot of sensitivity in organizations how do you create a soul for the company while making tough people decisions and running a business and it's not going to be

38:44Jeff Markowitz:just rainbows and unicorns like an overly sensitive place like you're running a business it has it's a business yeah so how do you create soul while running a business i mean it helps a lot if there is a soul when you start i don't see it as i don't see it as the people team's role to create the soul i think we can and the and the leaders that can can nurture that you can help it grow. But if you're looking to the people team to create the soul, I just don't think that's the structure that's going to do it. It sure helps to have a company that has a mission that people care about and that people see as something bigger than themselves that they want to be a part of.

39:26And that makes people willing to make little trade-offs around the edges to be part of this bigger thing. So I think, you know, join a company where that is already true and then help to and help to build it. That's a much faster way to it than trying to create a soul where there isn't one.

39:44Jeff Markowitz:Yeah. And I think, you know, I think that's absolutely right. And I think, you know, Jeff, you're kind of alluding to like, I think the pendulum swung, you know, especially through the pandemic to this kind of place where it was very sensitive and things were very heightened. And I think leaders really backed away from being as candid as they wanted to be and, you know, being direct. And they didn't want to hurt people's feelings because they didn't want to, you know, they didn't want to jeopardize losing someone. And also they were afraid that they might get in trouble for what they say and do, right?

40:20Jeff Markowitz:And so I think the pendulum has swung back to a more balanced place. But I also think the companies that navigate this well and continue to have their soul, right, if they had one in the first place, and let's face it, not every company has a soul, or they do, it's just not the kind of soul you want to be with. But I think that what companies that struggle with this are not clear about who they are and why they are this way. And then once they're clear, they then behave that way. Right. And so it's like employees can decide. Right. If they if that's what they like. Great. If that's not what they like.

41:06Jeff Markowitz:I think it was like. Was it Coinbase? They you know. Yes. But I mean, it was it actually, you know, was brilliant. And if you talk to the people that work there, you know, a year from that time that they kind of put out that manifesto of like, look, we are this. We are not that. We are this. This is what we care about. This is what we don't care about. If you care about these things, get on the train. If you don't care about these things, get off the train. I think it was incredibly helpful for them. Now, you may say as an employee or somebody that that's not me. That's not what I, you know, want to sign up for.

41:42Jeff Markowitz:But that's your decision. And I think that that was one of the things that we did very well at Netflix was that we were very clear. This is who we are. And, you know, average performance gets you a nice severance check and exceptional performance doesn't get you a raise. You get to keep your job like that's, you know, that's the goal. And so because we were so clear, that actually kept the soul, if that makes sense. And then people could decide. And I think many businesses are not very clear, especially on who they are and why they are that way. And so that's just confusing to folks. And when people come into a company, they've read your culture because everybody has a culture deck.

42:23Jeff Markowitz:Everybody has a manifesto. They read it, and then as soon as they start, they're looking around for it to be real or not real for the hypocrisy, right? Yeah. As they see it, they're like, yeah, you said you were transparent, but guess what? You're not. You're not transparent at all. You said you really value high performers. Well, there's a bunch of crazy people running around here who aren't very good at what they do, and so that's not true. So I think, you know, the clarity and then as much as you can, because everything's aspirational, but be that as much as you can. And things can change over time, too, right?

43:03As companies, it can be different to maintain what is that soul and what does that culture feel like as you keep adding zeros to your numbers of employees. And so I think leadership teams, and this is a place where I think in roles like ours, you can have a lot of influence, is noticing what are the shifts that are happening in the leadership and kind of asking questions like, hey, how are we going to make decisions like this? And so that you can kind of signpost that and be the guardian of some of that as it does evolve. It doesn't mean you're driving the direction of it, but you're paying attention to it and making sure that others see it as well.

43:38Yeah.

43:40Jeff Markowitz:We are kind of running out of time. And I want to make sure that we get to an important topic because, of course, we have to talk about AI because, I mean, who is not talking about AI? And we probably talk about it on every episode. So sorry, listeners. But as the chief people officer, and this is something that I think a lot of leaders in general are thinking about and struggling with, but especially chief people officers, CHROs, they are now the chief AI strategist for the company, right? So congratulations on that promotion, everyone. They don't all know how to do this, right? And nobody's like cracked the nut on how to figure this out.

44:21Jeff Markowitz:And there's a bunch of dynamics of, you know, robots are going to take our jobs and everybody's, you know. So how are you thinking about that at Aura? And what are some of the things that you are doing to strategize around AI being part of how the company operates? Yeah. I mean, it's complicated. I'll disclose that we don't have it all figured out. So sorry. Well, nobody does. So there you go. Exactly. Yeah. But I mean, I think there is tremendous opportunity with it. I wish the robots would take parts of my job and I'm trying to train them to do that more. Right. And I think we have a, but in the last year, we've really opened things up to encourage more experimentation.

45:00I think with a lot of companies, especially ones who work in kind of medical adjacent or personal data involved environments like we do, and especially ones who've got a lot of EU interaction, like the regulatory environment is so scary that I think for a while that caused us to be not broadly adopting. Yeah, you were. Tools and processes. It's a big risk.

45:27Jeff Markowitz:And I mean. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, we've certainly had teams in a focused way, taking advantage of the technology and learning about it for a long time. But the broader use, like, how does my team, does my team use these tools? We've gotten a lot more comfortable in the last six to nine months with what might be possible. And I think it's so important. We've got teams set up within the company to put guardrails out there, to just help people make good decisions in an environment where there's so much information and so much change and also so much risk. And so just basic things like here is a safe place that you can put this kind of data.

46:05Here is data that you should never use in a system like this. And, you know, we're constantly reviewing to make sure that we are going as fast as we can, because that's really important, but never putting member data at risk or going where we shouldn't in a medical way. So it's a tough balance, but it's very much on everybody's mind. For sure.

46:26Jeff Markowitz:And then is this like, just internally, is this like a shared sort of strategy between like you, the chief product officer, CTO? So it is. And we've got a heavily, we were just meeting earlier today, but we've got a heavily cross-functional team that includes several members of the top leadership team, including me. And our head of IT, head of product, head of commercial, lots of areas represented, software certainly. And then supported by folks with more focused mandates to learn about this, learn about the regulation, and really be the subject matter experts so that we can make informed decisions as a leadership team based on that knowledge.

47:09Data-driven decisions. Who knew? Who knew?

47:12Jeff Markowitz:Those are generally good ones. Yeah. Use some data. With a soul. With a soul. Yeah. Well, data without a soul is, you know. Not always helpful. So Judy, we have to wrap up. I apologize, but it's been so lovely. We always ask our guest, we put you on the spot and we ask you to leave our listeners with a little inspiration, something to go off and think about. And so what would you like to leave the listeners with today? I think the idea that to solve complex problems, you need divergent viewpoints and it's just such a powerful tool. And so for any kind of problem that you have to solve, seeking out people who you know are going to see it differently to have a little bit of a debate, to hear what they know, it's going to make you smarter.

48:02It's going to make you better. And it's actually a lot more fun. So that was my advice.

48:07Jeff Markowitz:I love that. That's good advice. And I'm so happy you came on the show and everyone should go buy an aura ring right now. Judy, I do have one question about these or rings and the other confession I didn't make because I didn't want to be offensive is I want them to have like a bit more diamonds on them like you know I want them to be a little more you know you are not the only one and we actually there are um there are people out there who have solved that problem so they're actually jewelry makers who will make ring covers that laying out your aura ring. Okay. Because I just, yeah, I want it to like, if I'm going to have it on every day, like I want it to, I like want to look down and I want it to like sparkle.

48:56Jeff Markowitz:Yeah. I like the bling. Yeah. Okay. So I can get bling. You can get bling. Okay. Well, now I'm going to buy one. Yeah. There you go. I need to get a rubber cover for mine for when I pick things up. That's a good thing too. Oh, does it get scratched? You can do rubber cover. A new one doesn't. All kinds of things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Well, everybody buy your Oura Ring and follow Judy on LinkedIn. Thank you again, Judy. You've been a delight. And Jeff, get your rubber cover for your Oura Ring, okay? I'm going to do it right now. It has been such a pleasure. Thank you both. You're welcome. Thank you.

49:28Jeff Markowitz:Thanks, Judy. Thanks for listening to TruthWorks.