From Pastor turned CEO: How to find work you're Wired for! - William Vanderbloemen

0:00How you can behave at work that's really going to help you. That led to another question. That's people who always move ahead in work, but are they happy at their work? So what would happen if you could figure out how to find a job you liked and are good at, like you're wired to do?

0:23What would happen if we just told the truth? Welcome to TruthWorks, where we dig into the nitty-gritty of leadership and work. and what needs to change. I'm Jessica Neal. And I'm Patti McCord. Our journey together started in HR, but trust us, it's evolved into something wild, honest, and well, a bit rebellious. So throw out the handbook. We're here to redefine rules to work for us, not against us. Let's dive into another episode.

0:58hi everyone welcome to another episode of truth works i'm jessica neal and patty is still out today recovering so get better patty we love you but today i'm so excited because we have a friend of the family who's been on the show before william how are you i'm good thanks so much for having me, Jessica, and best wishes to Patty. Yes, I know. She's getting better. Her bark surgery is no fun. But if you all remember, William wrote this incredible book, Be the Unicorn, which we talked to him about last time. And I just love your story from pastor to HR to running an executive search company, right?

1:41And now you're writing these books, you're doing this research and helping people have happier work lives. And you have a new book, which you're here to talk to us about. Yes. Tell us a little bit about work, how you're wired. And also, before you get into work, how you're wired, how are you doing? How are things? Yeah, you're so kind to ask. And you guys are kind of family to us. Just really hit it off the first time we were together. And then you guys were kind enough to offer some endorsement of the new book. So appreciate you having me back on. It's, yeah, you do a lot of podcasts, but it doesn't often feel like family.

2:21And this one does. And I think when you say, how are you doing? You're asking insider question a bit. Back in February, just out of the blue, completely out of the blue, my wife, Adrienne, got a cancer diagnosis. And that's changed a lot of things for us. And there is no, the good kind of cancer. I don't know what that means, but within cancers, this one is not that.

2:47Stage four renal cell carcinoma, so kidney cancer, but it's spread to the liver and some of the bones. So it's a very aggressive mess. And she's, you know, anyone on this podcast, if your best friend and life partner and spouse and mother of your children is, you're like we'll go anywhere we'll go i don't care if we have to go to timbuktu to the hospital or tokyo or anywhere we'll and so we did the global search for given the very particular kind of cancer she has who's the best turns out md anderson i live in houston md anderson had the best guy and the best facilities and it's about a 10 minute drive from our doorstep oh um we feel very blessed to have the best doctor the best hospital we've got good insurance

3:40and, you know, up till now, sleeping in our own bed at night, which I think you heal better if you get to do that. Yeah, for sure. You know, I don't want to go on and on about it, but Adrienne said, I said, it's your news to tell or not tell. And she's like, listen, the more people that know, if people know and they are people of prayer, that's what's going to get it done. And it is going to take more than the medicine to fix this. So I don't want to push faith out there on the beginning of the podcast. You just lost half your listeners. But, but, but, uh, listen, I'm a person of faith and I have been praying for her and I will continue to.

4:11Well, we don't care what faith, like just anything, like take whatever you got. Good vibes. Good vibes. Everybody can send them. Thank you for asking. You're very kind. Yes. Yes. So, well, before we get into, um, work, how you're wired, tell us, like set us up to like what set the stage for that? because you wrote this amazing book, Be the Unicorn, 12 Habits. And we talked a lot about that last time. But I think, I don't know, you tell me, but I think that probably led you to the research for this book. You're exactly right. And just by way of background, if you're new to meeting me, I own and run an executive search firm.

4:54And as Jessica mentioned, I was a pastor in a previous career and then HR. And then the company where I was doing HR did a CEO search and they used a search firm and it went beautifully and was much shorter than anything in the church. So 17 years ago now, I decided on our card table at our house to try to build something that could help churches find a pastor. And now it's blossomed into all kinds of other things. But what that means is we've spent a long time collecting a whole lot of data. And if we end up being a long, long, long-term success, it will be the people that agreed to join me on the team and not me because they have kept fabulous, copious systems for gathering all our notes, all our interviews, all our everything.

5:37I tell people, I would say it's an OCD system, but my team would say, William, OCD isn't alphabetical. It's actually CDO.

5:47So during the pandemic, when we had, you know, we were not just churches anymore, it's churches and schools and relief organizations and for-profits and lots of things. But during the pandemic, we had a little extra time on our hands, like a lot of people did. And we were able to say, well, what can we do now that we wouldn't have time to do otherwise? And that led us to start looking at some of this data that we gathered. And the first question we asked was, you know, if you get in an elevator with somebody and within two minutes, you're ready to sign up for their blog or hire them or ask them out.

6:19You know, they've got that wow, immediate wow factor. That thing, that spark. The thing, the thing. That's right. Yeah. why is that and so we identified all the ones we could find our top one percent of everybody we'd interviewed and um you know we got it down to 30 ,000 people and we then asked the question do they have anything in common and I thought it would be six foot five blonde hair blue eyes trust fund you know the whole like that whole thing yeah yeah no no no no no no it was 12 really distinct habits that these people practiced. And it generally had to do with how you were treating other humans.

7:00Yeah, that's the one thing I loved about it was like self-awareness, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's human relational skills matter. And I think they're going to matter more as we move into a more automated future than ever before. Because we don't do well being alone. If you don't believe me, go back and remember what it was like five years ago in the lockdowns. We don't. Yeah. So that led to and I'll seamlessly put it up here for people watching. That led us to say, OK, we found these 12 habits. Now we have found a roadmap for people to actually start behaving in a way that can mimic that where you can be that person.

7:36And that was the unicorn habits, 12 habits. So how you can behave at work, that's really going to help you. And that that led to another question because I have incessant curiosity. OK, that's people who always move ahead in work. But are they happy at their work? and then we were able to say, we got enough data. Can we find people who like their job and are good at it and see if we can uncover how they figured out what matched or if it was reverse engineer it or say, well, if you can do some of this, then you can find a job that you're happy at. And I know there are lots of different studies, and you can quote any one of them you want, but the general gist of what I've found is most experts agree that the majority of Americans really just don't like their job.

8:23Mm-hmm. Isn't that sad? That's so sad. Quiet cracking is the new trend. I don't know if you've heard this term. This morning on the CNN, I heard this morning that now people are, you know, it was like the quiet resignation or, you know, whatever they were calling. Everybody's leaving after the pandemic. And now they're calling it people are job hugging because there's too much going on. and now people are staying in their roles. So yes, but in general, most people don't like their job, which is kind of sad. Yeah, and then a little more research that we've done, and again, you can go on the internet and find any research to back anything you, but a significant number of studies show that most managers say that their teams are doing okay, but that's about it.

9:12Yeah, yeah. So what would happen if you could figure out how to find a job you liked and are good at? like you're wired to do. And I use, we're getting older, so now we're interested in smaller dogs that can go underneath the seat of a plane if you're flying somewhere. And so you have this miniature poodle and she's a ball of energy and wonderful. But if I asked her to do the Iditarod as a sled dog, like that 10 pound dog's not, no, no. And you wouldn't ask a border collie to be cooped up in an apartment in some big city. They need to be running it. Just like any other animal on planet, each of us are wired in a particular way.

9:53And if you can find work you're wired for, well, now that's kind of cool. So rather than make people go through weird, complex equations for that, we distilled the 12 basic lanes that people who are happy at the job and do well at it into, here are 12 distinct steps. If you follow through with each of these steps, you'll be able to gravitate toward which one of these lanes is yours and which kind of job is right. And, you know, I actually tried to get Amazon to sell them together because it's like, behave like this. Yeah, it's a package deal. And yeah, if you find a job you love and then behave the right way, you're going to be running the company one day.

10:29Yeah, you're golden. Well, that's what I love about your books, William, is that they're so practical. And it's not these like big, crazy concepts. It's actually kind of easy to do. I mean, you have to practice it, right? Which might be hard, but it's not impossible, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's the hope. I mean, you know, keeping it simple is about the only way I'm going to understand it. So hopefully others can agree. And it is sort of like, it's like buying a treadmill so that I can get in shape. No one has ever gotten in shape because they bought a treadmill. They got in shape because they got on the treadmill, right?

11:09So you have to actually use it, practice it. but but the data is pretty this is not william's opinion about how you can be had this is like no we've we've studied and you can read all the evidence behind it and all that and we even yeah well let's talk about what you found let's talk about the like how did you come up with these 12 12 i mean i'm gonna i'm gonna geek out on you people who are data geeks like Like we took the people that are happiest at their jobs and good at them, and we ran them all through a few personality profiles. So one's the disk inventory, which I'm sure a lot of your listeners are familiar with.

11:51Another that your millennial listeners will know and some of us who are trying to keep up, the Enneagram, which has been very much in vogue the last – Yeah, I like that one. Well, it's a very different way of doing it than the disk, which is great. And then the third one was a proprietary index that we developed around the 12 unicorn habits. And so we put them through all three of those, and we said, can we cross, you know, can we see where they overlap? Where does the Venn diagram hit the middle on all of these? So that if you're wondering what lane you should be in, well, go, I mean, you can find, probably ought to be able to find a freeway to take all of those.

12:30And that'll give you a little better map. You don't have to do that. You can just read the book because we've tried to make it simple. but that was how we started to uncover, you know, there's some commonalities. There's some common threads. Some people are, you know, built like a greyhound dog. Some people are built like a bull mastiff. Some people are, we're just wired differently. And the example I use, like when you're miserable in your job and you're not wired for it, I know this. I know this very well because when you, in the unicorn, I think the Audible actually outsold the paper, the hardcover.

13:03If not, it's close. and some people listen to it and then buy it. Like, I don't know why they do it. Whatever. Well, because they probably want to refer back to it. Maybe that's it. Anyway, if the author reads the book, it does much better on Audible. Just a general rule, unless you have a really awful voice. So, okay, I'll read the book. Well, here's what William had to do. So I'm a seven on the Enneagram. I'm a high I on the disc. I love the next party. I love the next thing. I love multitasking and let's do something fun and adventurous. Okay, William, we're going to record the audio book. I need you to sit completely still for four days.

13:44And I don't mean like in a chair. I mean like if you move, the mic will pick it up. And then I need you to read verbatim, no ad-libbing, no adding or subtracting, this manuscript at a pace that's very predictable. Do you know how much? I think I lost at least 18 months of my life doing that. It was so bad. I was just not wired for that. Patty had the same experience when she did hers, I think. Yeah. Well, and there's some people that are good. There are people you can hire to do this who are great at it and love it. Right. They like sitting still. They like reading a script. They like doing the same thing every day.

14:24They're wonderful. I'm glad my accountant is wired up that way or I'd probably be dressed in a different kind of orange today. You know, like you want some people who are wired like that. I'm just not. And it took me a long time to kind of figure that out. And it's such a powerful thing if you can figure out your wiring. I swear, if you'll figure out your wiring and then go interview for that job, you'll win the interview. Because they're going to ask you, they're going to say, well, tell me about yourself. And the subtext there is, I don't know how to start this interview. I need an icebreaker.

14:56This is the one everybody uses. Yes. That can be such a gnarly question. Do they want to hear my life story? Do they want to just, you know, it's like, how are you? I'm fine and don't say anything different. Right, right. But it's so powerful. If I were interviewing, you know, for a marketing position at a high growth startup, I could say, you know, I like your company. I've studied you, which you need to do in an interview. And I noticed how you did this last year because I read your year-end report. But I really like the spirit of the company. and the spirit of this job. Because here's the thing.

15:32I'm a high I on the disc. I'm a seven Enneagram. If you don't know what that means, it means I love a new challenge. I love figuring it out as we go. And man, if this is the season where we got to figure out marketing as we go, I mean, everything's changing every day. That energizes me. Let me tell you how in my three previous jobs, the best things I got done were when I was asked to do something I'd never seen before. When I was asked to go learn a new skill, when I was asked to take on something that was a new challenge. That's where I did well. If you want me to be in compliance, like don't hire me.

16:04I'll be terrible and you'll fire me and that'll look bad on my resume. But what I've learned about myself is I'm wired for this kind of job. Do you know how that's going to go? How would that go over with you if you were interviewing somebody and they said that? So well. And I wish more people did that for interviews, right? Came that prepared to talk about themselves, came that prepared to like really understand the role, really understand the company, and then not wait to be asked, but tell, like kind of show in a way that your readiness, that's that, I mean, you will hire that person all day long.

16:45All day long. So, you know, and then, oh, by the way, if I win the job, it's going to be a job I'm going to enjoy. you know as as have an attorney friend who always says well you know what's really nice is that has the added benefit of being true right yeah i like that i know my dad's a lawyer he would like that yes so tell us about the the just maybe you don't have to go through all 12 but let's pick pick a couple of the 12 of of the what you found and and what what surprised you if any yeah Yeah, well, I think, so the 12 are kind of a riff on the 12 habits of unicorn. They're meant to go together.

17:28So it's not unintentionally repetitive. It's actually quite intentional. So we found some jobs that, we found some signs, like if you are, one of the habits in unicorns is one of the lanes is the agile. The people who, just like I described, they like bouncing from one thing to the next. My wife is this way. She said, you know, I remember when I was a high school student and I'd get a job at the Gap during the holidays because they needed extra help. And they'd ask me to fold a whole table of jeans. And then when I got done, go rearrange the shirts over here. And then when I got done with that, go rearrange the socks over here.

18:05And I found I had to do like 10 minutes on this one and then go do 10 minutes on that one and then go do 10 minutes on that one. And I got everything done quicker because like if you realize you're that kind of person, then you can either make the job fit who you are or even better find the job that is who you are so these agile people need to be in roles like marketing or a company that's trying to adopt ai and trying all kinds of new things like they they you are it's the person that you meet and you say so what's your favorite book you've ever read and they say well i just finished it every week yeah i know that person yeah but uh but but we found you know here are the jobs so we did a lot of research and a lot of serving here are the jobs that best fit you and some of it was like you know everybody thinks it's like ceo or cfo no no no how about air traffic controller how about right you know not a welder are in desperate need of by the way that's right that's right i mean we take it down to like who's better wired to be a janitor and who's not.

19:12You don't have to be like running for president to benefit from the research that we did. It's really for every level. And then we interviewed people who are in the job that they love. And we also put in each chapter, we put a little section that's for hiring managers. Well, if you're hiring this kind of person, here's what you're getting. So you need to understand. I love that part. Right. I love that you added that because I think that's such an important thing because again, yes, if you're a person trying to find what you're wired for, but I don't think when managers are interviewing employees, potential employees, that they really dig into what they're wired for, right?

19:54They don't dig into that drive and that passion. And that was something that I learned in my career because I I grew up through recruiting, which I'm sure you remember. But when you didn't align that passion with the mission of the role or the company, it just didn't last, right? Because both sides weren't happy, right? And sometimes that's on the manager to figure out. Yeah, exactly. Well, sometimes I think that's on the manager to figure it out. I mean, frankly, you're probably the same way. Patty's probably the same way. I interview pretty well. And, you know, if I were desperate for a job and just desperate to find the next thing because I got to provide for my family or what have you, I could probably come off as really energetic about your job.

20:38And it's something that neither one of us are going to be happy with me being there. So, you know, it's not just learn how to interview well. Like if you're the hiring manager, you need to understand these 12 kinds of people so you can say, is this going to fit or is this like not natural habitat? Yeah, yeah. What was one of the just, I'm happy in my job stories that surprised you, like for the role or in your research? Like you're like, they're happy? Well, so I was a little concerned that I'm always looking for data that's neutral. It's not just, for instance, we're not just interviewing pastors, right?

21:16Because that's a different type of person than an airline pilot or a brain surgeon or that sort of thing. So we're real careful to neutralize the data and not just use one type of person. And the number of people that right now are saying that the purpose of the organization matters more to them than it ever has is a fun surprise. Life's too short to just get a check. Life's too short to spend the majority of your waking hours doing something that you don't know why you're doing it or what matters. I love to see people that put purpose high. And there is a type of person that puts purpose high that you need to know if you're wired that way so you don't go to, I'm going to pick on an industry, an unethical trading firm where they're doing anything to get the deal done.

22:09Not every trading firm is like that. I've got a brother-in-law who works for a trading firm. Please don't send me the email. But like it is known to be like the ethic is, do we make money or not? And you probably need to understand that about yourself so that you don't put yourself in a situation that's just not your natural habitat. I keep saying that. But like I think of the poor polar bear at the Houston Zoo. Like what is natural about that? Right. It's 100 ,000 degrees outside. Yeah. Yeah. So I would say the number of people that were like, I need to know the why. That was really cool to see.

22:46I knew I'd see it in the religious sector. Right. Then you get into like, compensation doesn't matter as much as culture for that sector. It's really interesting. And then I also just found that the people who are curious right now, who are asking questions, are very rare. But when you find one and you're an innovative company, oh my goodness, the hay you can make with that. and how they're excited about it. And like we are, I'm going to sound melodramatic, but I really think, I used to think, wouldn't it have been cool to grow up when Da Vinci was alive and he was in, you know, Renaissance kind of time.

23:26I think the next 10, 20 years is going to make the Renaissance look kind of like a non-event. Like the agility that would be necessary to keep up and get just a little bit ahead. Those people are going to have more and more opportunity than maybe ever before. yeah no i don't i don't disagree with that you know i think maybe we can talk a little bit about just like what what's going on right now and like set people up for like advice so there's there's a bunch of new college grads coming into the workforce there's a lot of things going on in the world like ai but there's also some uncertainty because we have tariffs and we have you know every day we're maybe in a recession maybe not you know we don't know um but uh But what do you see right now, just even from your business, in terms of what companies are still hiring, I think?

24:21They're still growing. What are you seeing? What are the trends you're seeing? Yeah, so first of all, there are other things going on besides AI, and I can't really speak to political climates and uncertainty there. I don't know how to, you know, we started helping churches, and we still help a lot of churches. but somebody told me a long time ago, oh, that's awesome. That's the only thing besides alcohol that's recession-proof religion. True. I don't know how to speak to that. But I do know, like I've got seven kids and the oldest one's 31, so they're all sort of on the front end of their career.

24:57And it's really interesting to watch them think about what they want to do and then follow that with the question of will that job be around in 10 years, five years? I mean, I was in a forum. And forgive me if I'm retelling a story I told before. Stop me. Okay. But I was in a forum. Okay. So I was in a forum. It was kind of like Shark Tank for purpose-driven businesses. And I was invited to sit through the pitches and all this. And then outside the pitches, they had little breakout sessions. And so they had a don't record this kind of session on AI. It was limited to 50 people. And it was the head of all AI for Google.

25:40And it was the head of AI for a company that works with our defense systems. And it was a guy who started three or four AI companies. Okay, so pretty heady people. And I think there were 49 coders in the room and me. I just wanted to go to hear stuff, but I learned that people that are most scared to death are coders because that's not looking great as a future career. But anyway, they all asked all these questions about back-end coding. And I mean, like, I felt like they could have been just speaking Greek. And I wouldn't, you know, I didn't know. So one of the panelists was kind enough toward the end to say, hey, you haven't asked a question.