How 2 Netflix Leaders Took "No Rules" Global! And Where It Almost Broke - Alix and Marta

28:27But at the same time, I think we were too slow to recognize how to truly be an inclusive organization globally. But I think we were open and that helped for sure. And I think we needed people like you, Marta, who could help us understand what that meant in Europe because none of us understood what that meant. in Europe. And the fact that, you know, what this might look like for a French employee is different than what it looks like for a German employee and so forth and so forth. And for me, you know, getting the opportunity to kind of help us expand globally, it was like a crash course, you know, on, you know, global culture around the world, you know, from, you know, Latin America to Asia, to Europe, and without, you know, folks like you, Marta, pushing us to, you know, be able to see the things that we didn't see and have people like you that were willing to have the courage to tell us, you know?

29:43It was scary. It was scary. I can't say it was easy. But when I think about this time, and it's been a few years now, one of my favorite values at Netflix that we have also brought to Alma Advisory, not only in our own behavior, but something we encourage our clients to do is show curiosity. I think what saved Netflix back then and what saved us from many more even conflicts, I'd say, is that moment when things are tense. Let's just take a step back and be curious about what's happening next door, in this other country, in this other office. Curiosity can save, I feel, lots of conflicts. And I've taken that with me for my career after that because, yeah, it just eases the situation if you just ask a question.

30:30Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I think because I talk to a lot of organizations about, you know, what constitutes a great hire versus someone that's not. And I always kind of go back to curiosity. Like, if the person isn't curious, it's never going to work. Well, the work is done. Yeah. And that is one thing that we really valued at Netflix and we hired upon it. Yes. And, you know, it's like quality of questions. Are you asking good questions? Yeah, exactly. Even if we weren't, you know, knocking out of the park and functional expertise or in the other areas, if they ask great questions that that kind of then led to a really interesting conversation.

31:16Yes. I would have put that candidate leaps and bounds above someone that had the perfect CV. Yeah, same. Yeah. And I feel like as you guys are talking, I'm just thinking like, I think one of my biggest learnings, and I think this can be applied to a lot of things, like it can be applied to talking about building cultures, to what we're watching happen now with generative AI. But for me, the biggest challenge of trying to expand a company like Netflix internationally, and particularly here in Amea, was figuring out the moments of when to paint with a broad brush and when to say these truths are universal.

31:51These principles are universal. This structure, this strategy can be applied across the board. And when to not paint with a broad brush and really, really zoom in and be specific and be hyper local. And I can't say I ever got it. I rarely got it right. I think I did sometimes, but I rarely got it right. But when I think about where the mistakes happen, it's people not being able to recognize which side of the fence you really need to be on. And again, like I said, it can apply to like building culture. It can apply to how we're thinking about using AI in organizations today. But you have to be really, really careful not to over-index either way.

32:32And I know I did quite often. And that's sort of what I meant earlier by kind of the American-ness of it all. Like sometimes we just painted with a too broad of a brush. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember like sort of, you know, people would ask me all the time, like, you know, can our culture, you know, scale around the world? All the time. All the time. Yeah. It was every audience. And my answer was always yes. But I think, you know, but I'm okay if we get there from different paths, right? Like if the path we take in EMEA is a little different than the path we take in Tokyo, which is a little different than the path we take in, you know, Silicon Valley versus Hollywood, because those paths were different too.

33:20You know, but as long as we get there and we have a shared desire and a value around these things. But if we get there slightly differently, I'm okay with that. I just, you know, we just have to get there. I also think what's really hard in that, like, and I also believe that, and I did believe that, and I would give the same answer. Because there were so many people that wanted to prove us wrong. I mean, you guys. Yeah, of course. Yeah. They wanted us to be like, I think they wanted us to be like, no, actually, you're right. It doesn't scale. You can just keep doing what you're doing. Just keep doing what you're doing in Tokyo.

33:56It's fine. We quit. But I do think where that gets hard when you talk about taking different paths, because we saw this happen, is you do end up, and we did end up with certain offices or certain teams or groups that had subcultures and subcultures that ultimately weren't particularly aligned with what we wanted for the company. And what I think started to fall apart, and this is a critique of Netflix, like I love the place and I am rooting for it always from the sidelines. But like, as the company got bigger, the company really struggled to hold people accountable to behaving in a way that was aligned with the company's operating principles.

34:36And that's where I saw things start to unravel a little bit is you let people take different paths because you wanted to give people that agency. But then you didn't have there weren't enough mechanisms in place. Or frankly, there weren't enough people who are brave enough or trained to be brave enough to hold people accountable when they were engaged in frankly shitty behavior. yeah yeah no i mean i i i think the cracks to that were probably like i remember having these moments right around when we were like 8 000 and like there are just like some cracks in the infrastructure where you're like like yeah like yeah it's just getting that's just part of it like there you there's some things you got to let some through to the keeper and that might be the reality of it.

35:18But I do think that can cause like, you know, it seeps down through the company. And it's people in the middle management and below that feel the pain of those cracks. Yeah, it's less upward. When you were saying, I got this question every day several times when I was at Netflix, can the culture scale? I firmly believe you can scale a culture like that because we did another element to scaling a culture like Netflix or any operating model. I think it has a lot to do with the leadership quality and leadership effectiveness. If you stop paying attention to your leadership density, I'm not saying it's the only reason for the cracks we all started seeing, but I think it's directly influencing how the culture is scaled, right?

36:04No, you're absolutely right. Yeah. Connected to the accountability, Alex was saying, and that's why we at Alma are pretty much obsessed with leadership effectiveness because we have witnessed when your leaders are modeling behavior and when your leaders are aligned and when your leaders are strong in working cross-functionally, which was essential at Netflix, magic happens. When these elements are not happening, companies are dysfunctional. And I sometimes call our clients dysfunctional in a very caring way because it's true, right? By the way, every organization is dysfunctional. Some more than others.

36:46And there's a spectrum of dysfunction, but I mean, we had plenty of dysfunction at Netflix all the time. Yeah, we were not immune. But I think what, and Marta, you're bringing up a really good point. I think what set us apart from other organization is that we confronted that dysfunction. And, you know, I think a lot of organizations don't. And then we were really obsessed. Yes. I can say that I was with having the best leaders possible. Yeah. And I knew that if we could continue to, if I could saturate that team, with the highest density of talent. And that didn't mean, to Yorol's point, like the best resume.

37:41That was like, yes, a great resume and skill, but also someone that would be willing to do the things we were asking them to do. And that, you know, our culture had a much better chance of scaling if we could deliver on that. Yes. And I knew if we didn't, you know, it would be less. And, you know, there were times where, you know, I won that fight and there were times where I didn't. Which is normal, I believe. But from a macro standpoint, the density of leadership was very high. Yeah. And that's what we push our clients to do, right? Yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, even though, you know, we by far were not perfect at Netflix and, you know, every company navigating this, you know, to get to being 100 % is aspirational.

38:32Nobody's ever 100%, you know. Yeah. But we had big aspirations and we really, really, really tried hard with that core team. And I know it was a priority for Reed too. I mean, that's where he spent most of his time was with leaders. And he knew if he could penetrate that group with context, with holding them accountable, with telling them the truth, then they would likely then do it with their teams. Yeah. Yeah.

39:36That was saying, no, Mr. and Mrs. Leader, this problem is actually your problem. Because I heard when I talked about it today, we were like so many companies want HR to kind of be a well-being function and sort of be like of the people for the people. Yeah, make everybody happy. Right. And that's not really the function we were. And the reality is that most of the challenges that come up with the people are actually as a result, a direct result of the leader's behavior. And that's one thing that I think really allowed our culture to scale was the leaders were held so accountable for what happened within their teams, for the behaviors that were demonstrated within their teams, within their team's outcomes.

40:15And I think that's what allowed us to do things like give people a lot of freedom, not have to get bogged down in performance reviews and a bunch of admin and really focus on the work. yeah so that's and if you think if you think about most of the leaders i i think you guys will agree with me on this if you think about most of the leaders that we parted ways with it was never because of skill hardly ever it was always because of culture behavior behavior yeah yeah always but we definitely saw them i i saw more resistance to that school of thought when i came here to europe than i did in the u.s i'll have to say because it was new right Like here, particularly what, over 10 years ago, that was an HR QPI to make sure that people were successful and there were no problems with intending.

41:03Well, yeah, you know, retain everybody. Right. Yes. Yeah. Which is such a different philosophy. But I do think we were eventually able to teach and coach. But that took some time. And we definitely turned through a few people who couldn't quite hack it. Yeah. I think we Europeans weren't used to managing that level of freedom. Even the most senior executives sometimes were either scared or very cautious with, you know, maneuvering the freedom and navigating it. So I think that's where Netflix really set that incredible precedent, because I think after that, many companies have wanted to have that agility in their organizations.

41:41We see it with our clients, too. It's not easy because it's not probably in the corporate DNA of the region, but I think it's evolved a lot thanks to the influence of this approach. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I want to get your take on this because I, you know, I work with a lot of companies now that are that are based in Europe and outside the U.S. And there is this desire to have more of a high performance culture, more feedback driven. But there's not, there's, I think there's starting to be some better examples in Europe of companies that have grown out of Europe that are, you know, and maybe Spotify is a better example.

42:26But what are you guys seeing in terms of just the growth that's happening right now within, you know, sort of the startup community in Europe? I think you're totally right. There's an aspiration to just be more agile organizations, right? There's also some social conversation about, you know, European regulations and how that might be influencing the lesser growth of the startup ecosystem in Europe. And I tend to agree, right? Yeah. Sometimes regulation might get in the way. I think these times of Netflix, Airbnb, a little bit booking, but it's European, you know, open people's eyes to a different way of operating.

43:11Right. So I think there is the aspiration is totally there because we speak with a lot of small, medium, big companies in Europe. But I think they're still in the aspiration because I don't think they've made, and I would love to hear what Alex feels, but I don't think they've yet made the mental click of that needing to happen through leaders, right? They think a lot about HR. Let's change cultures. Let's rewrite the culture. Let's implement a new fancy performance review framework that will make people magically behave differently. And we're like, no. The first thing we go and say is like, no, if the CEO, founder, owner, whomever that is, is not the one, you know, preaching this whole shift, it just won't happen.

43:57I agree. It will not. We are very blunt about this, right? We're going back to the leadership topic we were talking about. But I think there is clearly a shift in Europe from very traditional environments to more modern and sort of scale up environments. But I don't think the mental shift is still there. Well, yeah, like the founder or the CEO has to have an awakening at some point. Generally, that's through a failure, like, you know, kind of a come to Jesus moment. And, you know, I remember coaching this, Charo, and the founder was like, we have to have high performance. We have to have high performance.

44:41We have to have high performance. And so they do this big off-site and they get the executive leadership team together. And she's running a session on high performance. And the founder said nothing. The entire time. Didn't say a word. Yeah. And I kind of did with her, Alex, what I did with you. And I was like, because she kind of called me after this. And I was like, you need to go to him. and you need to say you failed. You failed me. You failed your team. And you are the one that's asking for this. And yet you took an entire backseat in that whole conversation. And you know what happened? Everybody from that leadership team thinks, here comes the HR lady with a high, now we have to do high performance.

45:33And guess what? We're never going to have it. And if you're not going to drive this, and I was like, and first of all, you should never been leading that conversation. He should have been leading it. Exactly. That was a failure on your part, right? But forget that. But you need to say that to him. And I recognize now I shouldn't have been leading this. You should have. But you need to go tell him and call me back after you have the conversation. Yes. I mean, we had a story. Bart and I were talking about a story today where we had a client who really similarly like super cool company smart people like all of the bones to really have a strong cultural shift towards something that is more high performance faster paced like really feedback driven less bureaucracy all that stuff right but the and the ceo was really passionate about it apparently called us in to help because they were really interested in how we did it on Netflix, how we scaled it, especially particularly in Europe, because this is a mostly European company.

46:35And the first person they put us in touch with was like a manager in learning and development to run the whole cultural shift. That person was fine and smart and great. We had a good conversation with them. But that immediately signaled to us, there's no way this is going to happen. You think this is an L &D project. you're never going to get where you want to go. And Marta, how long did it take us? A year? A year. I was reflecting this morning. We worked with this client for two years. The first one was only about us saying very nicely, we don't think this is an HR project. This needs to be owned by the founder.

47:14Until that happens, this won't work. It was great because we got paid. So that's fine. But it was only on year two that the CEO really decided to own it and spend unlimited amount of time with us in a room brainstorming. Was there something that happened that had them get the aha? I think it was a combination, at least for me, it was a combination of us giving a lot of feedback and them not seeing any traction. The L &D team was great strong, but they were an L &D team that couldn't really necessarily influence. It's not what we were producing, but every time the CEO saw it, he was like, no, this isn't what I wanted.

47:53And we're like, great, let's sit down and talk about what your vision for the business is, how the business needs to scale and how we can help get you there. And I think finally, you know, through brute force, a combination of brute force from us and him not getting the output, we finally got there. But gosh, it's it feels like a waste of time, right? Yeah. Yeah. Working. And it's what you were saying, Jessica. It's sometimes through a mistake that they will have that aha moment. He needed that time. He needed a time to get to a place where he trusted us to be in a room. and, you know, yeah. Sometimes, you know, in working with leaders and founders, and you two know this, and I think I probably talked to my team about this all the time, sometimes they just need to touch the stove.

48:37Yeah. You know, that's how they learn. We all do. Yeah. You know, like you can tell them it's hot all day, but until they actually touch it and feel it and see how much it burns, then you know they they they won't do it and you know I I love that you guys are are out there teaching this because you know just as you are passionate about it I am passionate about it because I think work can be so much better than it is and companies can be so much more successful than they are and they don't have to do what we did at Netflix in fact they probably shouldn't because you've got to think uniquely and critically about your business.

49:18But what you see so often is companies don't think uniquely and critically about it. They want to apply some playbook that they saw from Airbnb or Facebook or, you know, I'm sorry, Meta, you know, and that doesn't work. And then there's also the part that a founder, a CEO, and the rest of the leadership team play in it, which is they actually have to do it. Yeah. You know? And if they're not willing to do it, then it's never going to be a thing. And, you know, I was talking to a founder the other day and, you know, he was like, I really just don't like doing this stuff. And I was like, well, then don't, you know, it's never going to be a thing.

50:08And you have to be okay with that. Right? And, you know, if you want it to be different, then you've got to invest. You've got to be uncomfortable. You've got to sit in the part that makes you uncomfortable about it. But if not, if you're not willing to do that, that's fine. You just have to accept. Yeah, you just have to accept it. And I think it's very important, I find, and Alex and I were talking about this this morning. We are in career consultants, right? We we've been doing this for two years. But I think it's really important to go into clients with that message, Jessica, because what we've seen and all of our respect to to other consultants.

50:51Right. But we are not the type of people that will come in with a beautiful framework or methodology or or beautiful deck that will promise a transformation of the organization. the message has to be you have to do the work if you're not willing to do it we respect it and understand it but nothing will change and we are not going to lie and charge you a big fee for a beautiful deck we will come here to give you know to give you the unfiltered opinion of what needs to change and and you drive the change right or or you think about the operating principle that you want to implement. But I think that message is so important because we see a lot of beautiful decks flying around that I don't think help very much.

51:37Well, and what sucks for the founder that you're talking about, Jess, is that that person's going to end up with a leadership culture and an organizational culture. They will. They'll end up with one, but it's going to be the one that was learned from the behaviors of that person in their executive team. And it's probably not going to be one that has any positive impact. And in fact, it's probably going to have the opposite impact. So it's almost like, okay, you don't like doing the work fine, but you are going to end up with something. And that was my exact message. And it's like, it'll be what it is now and likely worse as you get bigger.

52:15And if you're okay with that, then be okay with that. Right? I think you don't have to do anything. You're the founder. You're the CEO. You can do what you want. I'm telling you, it's probably better if you do it. Yeah, we agree. But if you don't want to do it, I don't care. It's your company. I don't care. Exactly. That's the beauty of being an external. When we realize we're not in the company, we're like, phew. We're in the outside. Isn't that the beauty of your job right now? Okay, that's fine. Go for it. yeah you know i don't you know i don't work there no and we don't have to worry about like all of the like impressing anyone or like yeah i mean navigate the weird internal internal dynamics that we've all navigated being on the inside yeah but i think that's the beauty of it is we can actually be unfiltered because okay fire us if if we say the wrong thing fire us that's fine you know our our several month contract ends okay fine we'll all move on and so we're loving that because it actually helps us to be more effective because it's lower stakes.

53:21Well, yeah. And I think, you know, it probably builds more credibility and excitement to work with you because most people that are doing what you do don't say those things. No. They show the beautiful and they promise a bunch of shit that will never actually happen. And so they're probably like, oh, my God, like, look at these ladies. Like, okay. We're not for everyone. We're not for everyone. We're not for everyone. Well, you know, we all learned that. We all learned that in our careers is that we're not everyone's cup of tea. You know, not everybody wants to be told the truth, ladies. No. Yeah.

54:03It's true. And I think you say it in your intro. I don't know if you still say it in the intro of the podcast, but you say something like, what would happen if we told the truth? We just told each other the truth. God, there would be so much less bullshit. it. I just can't even imagine. It's, yeah, it's freeing, isn't it? To just be able to say what you mean and mean what you say and get on with it. But people just won't do it. I know. I think that's why the three of us are still having conversations 10 years later, because that's what we did always. And more needs to be done. Totally. But I think that there's, you know, I was talking to somebody about this the other day and, well, it was John Cincutti.

54:43And you know, I was talking to John the other day and John is now at Roblox, whatever. But John, you know, you know how close John and I were, Alex. And but, you know, it'll be a year will go by and we don't talk to each other. Right. But and it's the same with like you, Alex, and same with you, Marta. It's like a year can go by, but you're like bonded to these people in this weird way because you went through something that was so unique and hard. And but you like did it with these people who were like exceptional and, you know, and shared the same principles that you shared. And when you look back, like even though, you know, some of the things that we did were incredibly hard, it was the most fun you ever had in your career, you know?

55:34And you're also kind of bonded a little bit by trying to thoughtfully take pieces of that experience onto your next path. Yeah. And navigating the clunky. And failing. Yeah. And usually failing. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, I don't know. There's just like these, and you two are included in that. There's these people that you're just forever bonded to. And I know I can call you and you know you can call me and I'm going to pick up the phone and I will help you. And it'll be like we just talked yesterday. You know, you just kind of pick up where you left off. You know what, Jess? I think, as Marta and I talk about this, there are certain people you kind of have this implicit trust with, right?

56:20That you know are going to have your back. and there's not there's not many but they you know they exist and there were several of those people for me and i think for you too marcia that came from netflix and i think part of the reason we had those types of relationship comes relationships comes back to the whole feedback thing it's like the same topic where's they're going to change well yeah i mean like when i was when i was fucking up which was on the regular told you you you two told me and alex was pretty tough on me and i was very tough on her i was thinking about how tough we were with each other There is this group, and I think that builds trust.

56:53That builds trust, and you're like, I can trust this person because they're telling me the truth. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, I knew if I pulled any shit, you two would never let me get away with it. So I really tried hard not to, but, you know, I wasn't perfect. It happened. You took it really gracefully. I hope so. I tried to. You did. You did. I always told Alex, I was like, we can't say anything to just shit, end up with a smile. It's true. Well, I know. Because it's like, you know, I think the other thing, too, that maybe companies in general, but I think especially leaders, is like, you take yourself too seriously.

57:32I was going to tell you. You know, like. You always said, you know what? This is not the end of the world. What's the worst that can happen? Yeah. Right. And it's like, I'd rather, well, first of all, I'd rather know that I'm being, you know, that I'm doing stuff wrong than not know. But also, like, I tried to, and I'm sure I wasn't perfect on this either, but I tried to just be appreciative of the feedback and not be defensive of it and just say thank you, even though I didn't agree. But also, it was like, okay, thanks. And, like, that was really helpful. And, like, let's still have a great day.

58:11Like, you know, I don't have to be all in my, like. Like, learn and move on. Right. Like, I don't have to go to some dark place that I made a mistake. It's like, yeah, okay, yeah, that's, I hear you. That's kind of shitty. I won't do that anymore. But like, can you imagine if more executives operated like that? Really? I mean, sitting in a world where like, what is it, 30 % of, you know, like at least in the U.S., America's top executives like have personality traits from the dark triad. And then, you know, if we could shift to being in a place where people took themselves less seriously and just admitted that sometimes they don't know what they're doing.

58:46especially with this new generative AI stuff. Like, Marge and I were talking today how many AI transformation experts there are out there. And we're like, wow. All of them. Yeah, like everybody's an AI transformation expert. And we're sitting here being like, well, we don't actually know what's going to happen. Like, we're still learning. I know. That drives me crazy because, first of all, no one's figured it out, FYI, out there. No one's figured anything. We were talking about how could they have figured out a gen AI? Well, yeah, that title and then the future of work. It's like, how do you know the future?

59:20Yeah. Yeah. It sounds fun. I don't. Yeah. Like, you know, I don't know the future. Really? I think we'd be in a better place if more people were willing to just say, here's what I don't know. I'm learning as I go. I don't really know what I'm doing. Yeah. I don't know if I was perfect on that, but I did try to be honest about like, I don't know. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I really don't know. I'm going to try some shit. It might not work, but we're going to learn and go. And, you know, I think the other thing, it's like just saying sorry and admitting that you were wrong. A lot of leaders can't admit that they made a mistake.

1:00:00It's like, yeah, I'm sorry. Because they're scared. Like I think a lot of leaders kind of lead from fear because they're worried about their own space in the business, their own seat at the table, their own credibility and had an apology or an admission of, hey, you were right. It goes such a long way. Yeah. And you're right. People are so unwilling to do that because I just think there's some egos at play versus I think you summed it up perfectly. Just taking yourself less seriously. Yeah. And I also don't think you can be truly disruptive if you don't count on a few fuck-ups here and there. You just can't innovate unless you make mistakes.

1:00:40And that's something very Netflix too. But also when going independent in your career, you really need to try and learn from what goes wrong. Otherwise, you'll stay in a very, very safe space that ends up being very boring. Yeah, I know. Oh, my God. Well, we are running out of time. Yes. Which I'm really sad about because I miss you ladies. We do, too. You know, I miss hanging out with you. Okay, we always, like, put our guests on the spot and ask them to leave us with something inspiring to think about through the week. So, Alex, what are you going to leave us with? trying to think about what's what's been inspiring me uh actually something i don't know are you familiar with adam grant of course yeah he i'm i'm i really like him and i i listen to his podcasts a lot when i'm walking outside after you listen to truth works of course yes of course number one on spotify um yeah everyone should follow but she uh he interviewed uh someone and it's an old episode, but he interviewed someone called Daryl Davis, who is an African-American jazz musician who ended up basically devoting his life to trying to understand why highly, highly racist white supremacists and neo-Nazis thought the way they did.

1:02:03And he talks a lot about leading with curiosity and really trying to understand and really getting people to change their mind. And one thing Adam Grant kind of talks about a lot is the world would be a better place and work would be a lot more enjoyable if people were just more willing to be a little bit vulnerable and change their mind. And he also talks about that as being, and I agree with him, one of the biggest skills that leaders and everyone, leaders and employees alike are going to need to be successful in kind of the new era of work that we're moving into is the ability to not double down, but actually reprogram and change your worldview, change your mindset and change your mind.

1:02:43and to basically to be influenceable. And that's been something I've been thinking about a lot the last couple of days. Yeah, I think that's so true and inspiring. Thank you. All right, Marta. Very beautiful. Mine is more simple, but I think it's fun. How it is. How it is. This is why you guys are a good yin and yang. We're the yin and the yang, the best tandem. We all know Spain won the World Cup in football or soccer lately. One thing that has become my new motto in life, especially because I've gone through a lot of changes lately. I've changed countries. I've renovated a home. Now I'm in Amsterdam and I need to try a lot of things and meet new people.

1:03:22When one of the soccer players was asked before winning, obviously, can Spain win the World Cup? His answer was, why not? This why not has become a thing in Spain. And I'm like, you know what? For every decision I have in front of me or for every choice I need to make, why not? when I'm invited to a dinner. I was invited to this electronic music festival recently that I normally wouldn't go. And I was like, you know what? Why not? If you apply this... Because whatever you do tonight, now I know. That's for another podcast. But I think if we all apply this, why not a little bit more in some of our choices or if we want to make some changes in our life, it just helps a lot because consequences aren't that big most of the time and fear is just a really bad advisor.

1:04:14Sometimes you miss out. So why not? Why not? Yeah, I love that. I think that's perfect. And the one thing that I think people could add to the end of that is why not me? Why not me? Exactly. Why not me? For anyone. Right. Why not? Yeah. Let's try. Because we do. We let fear get in the way. So why not? Do you have anything for us? Any inspiration? gosh well this you know it's not the the the host is not supposed to do that here i am 15 years later still trying to learn from you yes and we like breaking rules we don't follow rules you know well that's true i know that about you you know i think that coming off of what what you're saying marta one of the things that i think not just as a human but as a woman human that i've learned and I've learned from working with women like you is this aspect of, yeah, why not me?

1:05:11Right? And it is something that I've been over the years really pushing myself towards. And there are times where I think as a woman, I didn't push and I questioned the why me a lot. And I don't know, question it anymore because yeah, yeah, me. Exactly. Exactly. Think like a man, baby. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know if it's inspiring, but Marta got my wheels turning on that because it is something that I think as humans, we're always trying to avoid the uncomfortableness. And, you know, I think women even have a harder time with that. And so I've tried to really force myself to break away from that and just, yeah.

1:06:03Yeah, me. Exactly. And if you don't want it, that's okay. Fire me. Fire me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Well, I hope it doesn't take a podcast for the three of us to hang out again because that would really suck. So promise me. We obviously have more to talk about, so we might need another podcast. Well, you might. Yeah, you might need to come back on. And, you know, if people want to find out about the two of you and about Alma, where do they go to find that out? So AlmaAdvisory.info. And then we're available on LinkedIn, obviously. Alexis Jacobson, Martha Monk. Yeah. Okay. We're always happy to have a chat.

1:06:48Yeah. If you're not using Alex and Martha, well, you should be. Okay. And if you learned anything from this podcast, it's that you need to use them. Okay. So thank you too. You're beautiful. I've missed you. And if I could hug you, I would. I know. Thank you. It's been a good time. Thank you for having us. This was a great conversation. Of course. Thank you. Love you guys. Okay.