Power combined with Insecurity, leads people to Lash Out! - Alison Fragale

24:06And, and, you know, I think I had a very lucky environment that I worked in where I did have the respect. But there were times where I didn't have as much respect. You know, just I remember like situational things. For example, I would say something and we go around the table and like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the guy would say exactly what I said. Word for freaking word. And they're like, oh, that's such a good idea. Why don't we do that? I was like. Yeah. He-peating is a thing. Yeah. I was like, I just said that. I've never heard of it. Oh, you haven't? So I put it in there. I thought everyone had heard of this.

24:43It was a physicist who tweeted this and it went super viral. He-peating. Yeah. It's when the man repeats you. I hadn't heard of that. Yeah. Yeah, I had actually heard it called that. Yeah. Alcinta, I want to shift, you know, talk about your book. So here's your book. So I started rereading your book for the second time. Just to put in a book plug as an author who's obsessed with language, you should read this book just because it's – because you can hear your voice. It's like I hear you talking to me now and you've been talking to me all morning. And it's really a lovely book. I just recommended it to a book club that my wife is in with powerful women.

25:17But the question I – here's the question I want to ask. So my wife, who was managing partner of a big law firm and was CEO of the Girls Cuts of Northern California, the thing that she always talks about when I talk about this balance between being liked and being competent, the way that she describes it is us guys, we have kind of like a balance beam and women have a tightrope. And I think you and Maggie Neal would – like it's harder to do that balance for women than men. Is that right? Isn't that sort of the problem that you're wrestling with in this remarkable book that you have written? I think I'm fair.

25:53No, you're 100 % correct. It is harder. However, it's harder because women start out with less status than men. And so what happens is that confirmation bias is a very powerful thing. What we see, and this is a part of the work I've done, is once someone respects you, then there's a halo that comes to you, right? Which is, I value you. So you must be all the things, right? You're really smart and kind and warm, and you're also really capable and organized. You're likable and you're badass. And once I think those things about you, then all you have to do is not screw up, which isn't that hard. When you have somebody who starts off with lower status, it's about building status.

26:33And you have to convince the other person that you are both of those things, which is just more work. And so, but the good news is that confirmation bias works for all of us. So once someone has decided that you are very warm and very capable, you get to ride that whether you're male or female, it'll work, but you have to invest a little bit in building it. And I think that's what really surprises people is, wait a second. I'm doing the exact same thing that that guy next to me is doing and people are reading it totally differently yeah they are because in their non-conscious brain they're reading this as a high status person who's done x which seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to do and now you're a lower status person who's done x and it's not it's terrible it's just not a status building behavior so that's the bad what's an example of that you know I express my ideas in a meeting right and I just say here's here's what we need to do and I'm very assertive about it and for the guy, they'll be like, yeah, you're the female.

27:29We'll be both, right? For the guy, you're like, everyone's like, good points, you know, good job. That's thanks for taking care of the team. And then the woman gets like, you're a little shrill in there. Well, why is that happening? Okay. Because when the people are listening to the guy inside their brain, they're like, this is a very caring and capable human being talking to me. And if I'm listening to a very caring and capable human being say, here's what we got to do people. How do I hear that? I hear that as this person is not going to let us fail. This person is looking out for us. Okay. But if I'm listening to a woman and my brain is saying, I have no idea if this person is either caring or capable.

28:05Okay. They're suspect on both. And then the person says, this is what we got to do people. It could come off as this is a person trying to grab credit. And so the idea is that once the status is built, it's an incredibly valuable resource. That's fairly easy for us to sustain. It's actually fairly easy to build, even if you're in a disadvantaged position from your ascribed status. I always say, and this is like, look, there are people who are naturally really good at this, and Bob is definitely one of these people. I always say the best time to build your status is when you're new in a relationship and you don't need anything from somebody.

28:40this person has not spent more than 10 seconds even knowing you exist and you sort of figure out really quickly how can i show up in this person's conscious awareness and convince them in minutes or seconds that i care about them and i know something about something i think people who are and i think bob is like one of the as you know like one of the kindest most giving people in addition to being crazy smart but bob is always sometimes let's let's be as we all are as we all are but all those things are true he's amazing the maggies they're always trying to figure out like a way of how can i help you but not just like how can i drive you to the airport but how can i do something that is unique i'm uniquely good at that will make your life better um and whether that's make an introduction to somebody or give them i have a really you know bob has a big social media network or a social like he has a lot of followers on social so like you know being praising somebody on social is something that's kind of unique to Bob that other people wouldn't be able to do as easily, but that kind of thing.

29:39And I think that mentality of how can I take what I'm naturally good at, use it to be of service really quickly, and then get that person on board pretty quickly so that it's not years of work. And I think what people do that don't think about this is they just say, I'm just going to do what I do. And I am really capable and I am really caring. So what's the issue? And I'll be fine with it until I wake up one day and realize that somebody doesn't see it. And now I'm panicked. I'm not getting the rewards. I'm not getting the praise. I'm not getting the advancement, whatever it is. And now I'm super motivated to change.

30:10And that's when people will like call Bob and I out of the woodwork 20 years after they graduated. Like, I've got a problem. Can you help me? They'll want to really focus on now I want to invest in this relationship because it's gone sideways. And I just say, you can, and I can talk to you about it, but it would have been way easier to do a few things five years ago that all the work you're going to do after you spent five years being underestimated. Yeah. So I want to follow up on this, on a specific element. And this is a conversation I had with Maggie seven or eight times in my life. And I probably with my wife a hundred times and with many Stanford undergraduates, especially the ones who go to work for McKinsey Bain or Boston Consulting Group right after they graduated, which might have happened to you.

30:49And one of the bits of advice I give them based on what Maggie gave me this advice, My wife gave me this advice. A woman named Mary Cranston who ran the first Amlaw 100 law firm gave me that advice. My wife's old boss, which is that, well, if you're not sure whether to be a doormat or a bitch, and I'm quoting Maggie, be a bitch. What do you think of Maggie's comment about that? I think Maggie told me that more than 10 times. My wife, 100 times. Okay. So if I presume. No, I don't mind it. But here's the thing. If the premise is there's only two choices, then I think I'd pick the same. That's why Maggie and I gel well together.

31:26But I think the issue is, and this is, we assume those are the only two choices, and there's actually science on this. So the science on it is what's called, this is like where psychologists need to have terms that are easier to say, compensatory impression management. So this is a thing. And it's our false, you know, psychology is, we're good at documenting all kinds of false beliefs. I don't know what that means. You won't. I'll explain it, and then you can forget the term. I don't either. But the concept is really, this concept will stick. The basic idea is human beings hold a false belief that you can only be liked or competent.

32:00You can't be both. How does that show up? When in studies, we give people the task of go into this room of strangers or meet somebody and convince them that you're really smart, what do people instinctively do? They get less nice. And when you give them the same task, go in there and convince people you're really nice, what do they start to do? They start to downplay their competency because they believe it's not possible to be. And that's just a false narrative that we hold that does hold us back to say, sometimes that's going to be the case. Your only choices are doormat or bitch, you've got to pick.

32:34But I always say, is there a path that has both being likable and being capable at the same time? And if so, that's the door to walk through. And it starts with recognizing that a choice doesn't have to be made. I mean, I've done this for so long in my own life as well, of this idea of compensating. Every time I say this in audiences that people who have had the same experience laugh. So I went to Dartmouth as an undergrad, then I go to McKinsey, then I go to Stanford. Okay. Those are three very elite institutions, super privileged to go to those places. I have spent for a very long period of my life playing like resume dodgeball with people.

33:14So they'll say stuff like, where'd you go to college? And I'll go, in New Hampshire. Well, where? you know and i'll like hanover where'd you go to graduate school on the west coast i they will have to ask me 93 questions to get me to say something like i went to dartmouth i went to stanford why because i'm not trying to say something in a conversation that's going to make it me look capable but at the expense of feeling like are you bragging like do you have weird tone in your voice when you said it i'm like easier not to discuss it so that's an example of thinking about I'm holding back on something with the explicit purpose of just trying to be a nice normal person in a conversation.

33:49And every time I say, there's research on that, it's just people will hide high status identities because they don't want to be seen as bragging. But that pulling back isn't actually serving either goal, right? That there are much more effective ways to say, I highly value you and I'm a person who's really capable and knows what they're doing. And when you start to recognize it doesn't have to be an either or, it starts to open up lots of really simple ideas. Okay. I accept that in theory and most of the time, but I'm just thinking, I'll tell you a story. So my wife is a new associate in a law firm and a male CEO comes in and immediately assumes that she is the secretary, of course.

34:34And asks her to sit in a side seat, not at the table to negotiate. I don't think she had any choice but to be a bitch and say nope I'm a lawyer I'm gonna sit at the table she pushed back really hard yeah as she should have to me that's a great story yeah in those moments I think she had to be a bitch yeah what do you say Allison what do you say well let me so do you think if he understood that she was an attorney he would have said sit at the table? Oh, no. Then she got the women attorneys are useless, even though she had - Wait, he said that to her? Basically. I mean, there's ways to say that without saying that.

35:13Right. Here's like the example. Like these things happen and they're nobody's fault and they blindside you and you're like, what am I supposed to do? And I don't think there's a right, necessary way to handle it. I always say, you don't have to handle everything in the moment because you got to think about relationships as long games. And so even if you exit and you're like, you're leaving, you're like, I really wish I'd handled it differently. If you are really, you know, caring and capable, you have many opportunities to come back. Okay. The second thing I tell people is, like, just because someone was like rude, offensive, etc.

35:42I am always telling people the line, one of the lines from Kim Scott's brilliant book, Radical Candor, which is, a good boss should strive to leave three unimportant things said every day. And I'm sorry, three unimportant things unsaid every day. Yeah. Like, just because you think it doesn't mean you have to say it. And I think sometimes when people say these really rude things, the question is like, is correcting it at this moment really necessary for me to be able to achieve my longer term goals? Or you can just be rude and eventually you'll figure it out and you'll be kind of embarrassed and it'll be fine.

36:12Yeah. And then I think the, but the other thing I think of is that when we start to be a little more proactive than reactive, we can start to cut a lot of these things off at the pass by anticipating that they might happen. Meaning your wife had no way to know that at that moment that she would be assumed to be a secretary. But we generally know we can be underestimated all the time. And so to think about what are the easy proactive things I can do, like I'll walk into everyone's room, and I'll walk up to somebody and introduce myself and I'll say who I am and what I do. And that if I were proactive, before anyone said sit over there might have changed the person's response, right?

36:49Yeah. And so I start to think about what are authentic things that you can do before you've ever encountered a problem. Like people talk similarly about being interrupted or spoken over in meetings. And I'll say to them, well, have you ever interacted with this person before? Could you have predicted that this person would interrupt you, speak over you, steal your idea? And a lot of times the answer is, yeah, I could. So then I say just a little bit of strategizing could help you out, which is I'm going into this meeting. I'm going to go say to Bob, the highly respected person in the room, hey, Bob, I got some things I want to share.

37:19If I get cut off, like, will you be my wingman? And will you make sure I get to finish my thoughts? And Bob would happily be like, sure, gotcha. And then he would start paying attention to me. If he wasn't defending me before, it wasn't, it was because he didn't know I was being defended. And he's thinking about the fact that he's hungry and what's he going to do when he gets home. But with a little bit of help from our allies, we do too many of these things ourselves and don't recognize that other people are happy to help us out if we tell them exactly what we want. And so that's an example where I say to people, you know, you might get interrupted.

37:48there's nothing wrong with having a little pact with the other people who are you know believe in the same things you do to say hey it's easier for you to step in and go back and say hey I want to hear what Allison was saying than for me to say don't interrupt me and I think that's where that third category is Bob of if I have to do it all myself I'm gonna look bitchier than if I have other people who could step up and then they can help build my status without me having to take it all on. It's so fascinating. So, you know, for the women out there that, you know, they don't want to do the doormat bitch thing, what should they do?

38:24Like, I mean, I get this like proactive stuff, but if there's like one takeaway for the women out there who are, you know, making their way up in an organization or just starting their career in general, how do they build status in an authentic way, but quickly. Yeah. Okay. So I'm going to give you two different ideas that relate to each other. First is the second you meet someone, that's when your relationship starts. The second you meet someone, look for a way that you can be like helpful and generous in a way that showcases your capability. I think for me, the easiest way to do that is to make introductions and to be a connector.

39:00Why do I love this? Because it's super fast for you. You can meet somebody, you can talk to them in line at Starbucks for five minutes and by the end of it, know enough of their life story to figure out someone you could introduce them to to be helpful. You write an email that takes you two minutes less if you now use what my friend just told me about this morning of some AI thing that writes your emails for you. But nevertheless, you send the email, person A, meet person B, you're both spectacular, I'll get out of the way. Okay? Now, the value of that is if that's a mutually beneficial connection, right?

39:29You've been able to show up as helpful. Like, here's my contact for your benefit. Yeah. And you're knowledgeable in a way that's unique. I know people you don't know. So when you start to look for things like that, you can find really quick ways to be like, I'm going to help you and I'm going to get out. So intros, I think, are a great way to do that. The second thing I would say is that we build our status ourselves by the way we show up, the stories we tell about ourselves, and you can't shirk that. At the same time, the other way our status gets built is the things that other people say about us generally when we're not around.

39:59And so we have spent our lives since middle school trying to avoid people talking about us behind our back. But a lot of the ways that people talk about us when we're not there is super helpful to us. So like, Jessica, we're meeting for the first time. I have no idea like how this came to be, but I'm guessed through Bob. And I'm guessing Bob didn't say Allison's really meh. Like, but we're running out of, let's bring her on. He said the exact opposite. So that, think about that. Who knows what I was doing? Like taking a nap, riding the bike. And there's Bob building my status for me. And so that is a really powerful thing that we can get smarter about leveraging.

40:35And so this is. Yeah. So how how does does one do that? I mean, obviously, if like management and leadership are talking about you when you're not in the room, how do you get them to say the right things about you versus Allison's meh? Okay. So there's three steps. Okay. And then it'll end with the one I was about to tell you. So the first one is you got to meet more people. So rule number one is people can't talk you up if they don't know you exist. Right. And being open to just conversations is another thing I really admire about Bob is I think Bob is like genuinely likes humanity and is curious about people.

41:10And so probably has a lot of conversations with people and some of them are just one and done. And some of them open up these pathways of like great lifelong friendships or collaborations or things like that. or I'm a terrible gossip would be another way to put that I love gossiping anyway who doesn't this is what does this is what makes yes this is everybody wants the tea Bob everybody wants the tea so meeting more people and I you know I talk about the fact that one of the people who is really really really great promoter for me I met her in an airport bar because I just struck up a random conversation which I don't typically do and so starting to get in the habit of actually bringing more people into your life and thinking the next person who could open a door for me, I have no idea where they could be.

41:48That's one. Second thing is, what are the quick and easy things I can do to show up as, I have to earn their respect first before they're going to sell me. If we are trying to get people to talk us up and they don't value us, that's always going to go poorly. So what are the ways I can add value to their life from something super quick, like an introduction to something a little more effortful in terms of figuring out what they care about and adding some value to it. And then the third one is you have to motivate them to pick up the microphone. And what I mean by that is like outside this conversation right now, there are people who know each of us who really respect us.

42:21But how what percentage of those people are currently telling everybody how awesome we are versus just thinking we're amazing and doing something else? We actually in order for someone to promote you, they have to start saying words, writing words. So I think that happens in two ways. The first piece of advice, which is the one I was going to say just a minute ago is going to be really easy. And I think if people heard this and did only one thing, I would say do this, which is become an evangelical talker-upper of the great work that people around you are doing. Anytime, so like one of my rules is anytime I have myself thinking a thought like, oh, that person is great for whatever reason, I try to not let that thought die in my head.

42:57I try to do something with it, like post it on social, tell somebody that is influential for them, make an introduction, whatever it is. And why do I say this? It's one of the most authentic and strategic things you can do, right? Talking up people is a beautiful way to live, but also human behavior is all rooted in reciprocity. When someone opens the door for you, you stop and open the next door for them. When you hear that someone was in a room talking about how great you are, what are you going to do? Look for the next opportunity to return the favor and talk them up. So if we start doing it, not only are we becoming great allies, just natural reciprocity, we start getting a lot more of it.

43:32but it's just so logical but it doesn't occur to you but it's just it's a no-brainer it just i mean it's so fun right and this is where i see people who have like a lot of like goodness around them is they're just really good at building up other people and there's there's new research that just came out on this like when you build other people's status status is not a zero-sum thing it actually increases your own it doesn't detract from yours so so our friend adam that's right i I knew him when he was a PhD student before. He is now like one of the most famous of any, the most famous organizational psychologists ever, I think.

44:08But he's always been the same. And he still does it. He can't help himself. He's always introducing people. He's always like, and he gets all this other stuff done. I mean, he just amazes me. And I think that it's not because he has so much status. It's now. It's just he's so consistent in doing that for other people. And he's got to protect himself because he has so many demands on his time. but uh but he's amazing he is amazing he's also a good example about getting really efficient with the value you contribute so for example i always say to somebody if you found yourself repeating the same advice to people more than twice it's a good idea to write it down because someone else is probably interested in that so adam has you know knowing him well too because he was it's always a fun fact everyone's like how do you know adam grant i'm like oh i hired adam grant into his first job yeah and everyone's like oh my god you guys are you guys are such good friends.

44:55And I was like, yeah, you know how to like get like a famous person to be your friend, meet them when they're not famous, meet them when they're not famous and spend a lot of time like working with them and being good to each other. Right. I was like, okay, I didn't know. I knew he was brilliant. I didn't know it would pay off exactly like that. But the point is that he's automated a lot of stuff. And I've learned a lot from interacting with him that he's able to magnify how many people he can help because he has so many things he can point to. So when you have a good organizational system that is combined with a spirit of generosity and a lot of knowledge, you can find ways to be fast.

45:26And one of the things I noticed was a lot of ways that people can be efficient with this. And honestly, like Bob and I are both on social pretty often. And that's why I use social is it's a fast way to be, to add value to a lot of people's lives without having to have a lot of individual conversations. So Adam is brilliant and he's generous, but he's also really smart about finding the efficiencies in that. And I think that's something that, you know, the mere mortals of us can adopt. I was just going to say the final thing though, of how do you get people to talk you up? Because I don't think this can be skipped is yes, you should talk them up first.

45:59But the other thing is ask for it. And one of the biggest things that, you know, I've learned from all my years of this being in negotiation is it's not just for cars, houses and salaries. Negotiation is for anything you want. And sometimes what I most want is someone to go to a room I'm not in and talk me up. And so I would like, I'll use like Bob as an example, because Bob actually knows me before today. I would say Bob, I guarantee you did not wake up but at any point today say, let me think about what Allison might need and how I might be able to help her. Not because he doesn't care about me, but because I'm one of 8 million people he knows and he has his own life to manage.

46:31But if I called Bob and I said, hey, Bob, here's something that would be really helpful. Would you please tell so-and-so that you're going to talk to anyway, fill in the blank, right? That my book exists or I did this work or et cetera. I'm only going to ask Bob to tell things that I know he really believes and are true. the reaction I would get from him and not just him, but anybody is sure. Like that's not hard. Yeah. I already know that person. You want me to convey some facts? Not a big deal, but it would never occur to them. So when we start asking people to be our promoters, our microphones, we're going to get a lot more of it.

47:04And I always say that when I ask people to do this, the facial expression that I can decode is not annoyance, right? It's, it's, uh, it's relief. it's like you're asking me to do something really easy and thank god because i do want to help you but i really was worried about what you were going to ask me for it could have you could have asked me to drive me to the airport that would have been horrible oh this is so good i'm not good at that are you good at that bob yeah i probably am good at that i hate to say it but but the one thing why do you hate to say it you should love to say it i think i'm i try to not ask too much of people and and that's the one footnote that's the sort of give and take that Adam's book is that there is a certain type of person who just asks, all they ever do is ask for favors and they never do anything for you.

47:49So that's the one proviso is that if you talk about reciprocity, when you're in a relationship with someone where there's no reciprocity, that doesn't work for me. Yeah. And Bob, this is going to be your category. I always say this to people. This is definitely true for women. It's equally uncomfortable the other way when you're in a relationship with someone who constantly does for you and never asks anything or will accept anything, you start to get uncomfortable in that relationship. So when I say, like example is, if you ever had friends you go out to dinner with and they insist on paying every single time and you're like, I'm not really keeping score, but at some point I'm actually less interested in going out to dinner with you because I know what's going to happen is I'm never going to be able to reciprocate or contribute.

48:30Well, you feel like they're holding it over your head in some weird way. Yeah, it makes you feel bad. They are, I don't think, doing anything that's rude. It's like the imbalance of this is crushing me. And so I do think that the science is we overestimate how put out other people will be by our request for help. It keeps us from asking. When you start to flip it around, right? You know, Dan Pink always has a thing, stop thinking you're so unique, right? False uniqueness is a problem. So I always flip it around. And I think if it came to me, how bothered would I be? How hard is it? And you start to realize those things aren't that hard and that people like to be helpful and they like to be helpful in easy ways.

49:07And I think that I know, look, I have spent, and I'll say this, Bob, I now spend a lot of time talking with women. Rarely do I find a woman whose issue is they only show up when they need things and they don't give much more often. It's the other I've given, I've given, I've given, I've given, I've given. I never collect even when I think someone could help me. I don't want to ask. I'm not very good at asking, you know, I have. And when I do, I'm very uncomfortable about it. But I give all the time. I'm a huge connector. But I'm going to work on this because there's science behind this. And I believe in the science.

49:41And I believe you, Allison, and I'm going to be better. But we have to start wrapping up, unfortunately, because I know this has been - I can talk to Allison. You're so awesome. I know. I can talk to you all day. Right back at you. Allison, before we jump into career confessions, we always ask for a little nugget? Like, what do you want to leave the listeners with if you can leave them with like one thing? So here's what I'll say. Authenticity and strategy are not opposites. You can absolutely be both. And I think for so many people, particularly women, they've felt like they cannot be their true selves.

50:12And I always say this, if you don't care about anybody and you're not good at anything, I can't help you. But I'm going to presume that most of the people listening care and they have skills, which means the only issue is how do I communicate that? And that leaves a ton of space to be who you really are and just think with intention about how you show up to get maximum credit for all that you've already contributed. Love it. Love it. Okay. So I'm going to read the confession real quick. Okay. So I'll set it, I set up the question. They gave us a little context. So I just started a new job two weeks ago and I already feel like I'm behind.

50:49Everyone around me seems to know exactly what they're doing and I'm stuck second guessing myself even on small tasks. I keep over preparing because I'm scared of being seen as incompetent, but it's really slowing me down and stressing me out. Question, how do I strike the right balance between wanting to prove myself and not burning out or overcompensating and losing my mind in the process? Ooh, what say you Bob and Allison? Oh, all right. I'm going to defer to Allison for starters? This is hard. Okay. So first is, I think to recognize that that was, sometimes we'll talk about it as like an impostery voice or a lack of confidence is, it's just inevitable in this.

51:30And so that voice is often a signal to us that we're doing something wrong. But I would say no. Anytime we're learning and growing, right? Right now I'm here. I aspire to be here. Like I really want to excel in this role. There's a gap. And that feeling of lack of confidence and positive it sits in that gap but there's no way to grow achieve to to do anything without having that feeling so i think the first is the feeling is bad enough but the judgment about the feeling is really paralyzing like i shouldn't be feeling this way and therefore because i am i'm doing something wrong to say right the feeling that way is like having sore muscles after a workout which is it doesn't feel particularly fun to be sore but it's not a sign you did anything wrong That's natural.

52:12So the second thing I would say is when you're new is the time when you are allowed to not know anything. What I think a lot of people do is they are not authentic. They try to hide it. And then five years in, you don't know something. And then you think, now I really can't ask. You have this status as a newcomer that allows you to be curious and to learn and to always think about. So this is an example that someone came to me related where a woman went into an internship in business school confessed that she wasn't good at A, B, and C and then got hired still, but then felt like she was sort of classified as not being good at A, B, and C.

52:48And I said, you can be authentic and strategic. You can admit you don't know without saying, oh my God, I'm the stupidest person alive. Can you help me? To say, hey, in the world that I came from, this is my instinct is to do it this way. It really matters to me that what I do is on point with the culture. This is my first idea. Do you mind if I get some reactions to you to see if you think that would fit well in this environment? Both of those are, I don't know, can you help me? But they land really differently. So thinking about how can I create a message of, I know what I'm doing, and I really care about getting this right here.

53:21And when you show up with that curiosity, it allows you to do the same thing, just shifted message. And it's not, I'm unqualified for this job, you should be rethinking your choices versus I have a lot of skills I need to learn from you about the culture. It's so right on. As a subtext, and it's interesting that you had Maggie Neal as an advisor, that a lesson from that also is the context you choose is very powerful. The mentor and the norms in the group. So that's sort of like a growth mindset. That works great with somebody like Maggie. There's other people in the world who simply will dismiss somebody who isn't competent or confesses that they need help.

54:01And I think, Jessica, we know this, that choosing the people that you work with, the person that you marry or whatever, it's very important. It is very important. It really is. And I mean, I really don't have much to add to your advice, because I think you're right on. And I think the biggest takeaway for that person is that they are new, right? They can ask questions. And your brain is evil sometimes. It tells you all these lies that aren't true. It's your worst enemy sometimes. And so I think leaning into the fact that you're there for a reason and that you're new and that you're capable. And then I think reading your book, Likeable Badass, is another great next step for this person.

54:47Yeah, it hurts. Yes. Read the book. Okay, Allison, this has been so fun. Where can people find you if they want to know more about you. Okay. So I have an easiest one-stop shop is go to my website, allisonforgale.com has all the things, has stuff about my book, has all the podcasts and fun things I've done. But then there's three things. I put out a newsletter on Substack, free newsletter called The Upper Hand. And then like, I actually don't know if Bob's on Instagram. I haven't figured that out yet. No, Bob's not. No, he's not. Okay. Bob is a big deal on LinkedIn. Okay. So I'm on LinkedIn. You find me near Bob and I'm on Instagram.

55:19I'm trying to learn and figure out that platform. Those are the three ways people can find me. Okay. And then they can get the book anywhere that they get books, right? Anywhere you get books. Okay. Thank you, Alison. Thank you, Bob, for being the co-host today. And thank you. You guys have a great rest of the week. Thank you. And thanks, Alison, for writing such a fabulous book. Most management books aren't very good. This is one that really is worth reading. I really want to emphasize that. Thanks for listening to TruthWorks.

55:52Thank you.