The 9 Signs Your Boss Is Destroying You (And How To Stop Them) - Eric Charran

25:44Another challenging one for me was a firefighter. And I wrote a Harvard Business Review article about the firefighter. Yeah, let's talk about the firefighter. Yeah. So the firefighter was one of the archetypes that I encountered in the early days of my career. So this is an individual VP senior individual. We were part of a business processing outsourcing company. So this is pre Microsoft and it was my first corporate job. And so I was responsible for being a developer, software architect, engineer on our payments platform. And this individual was an impressive individual. Stern's School of Business educated, respectable VP, somebody that I would definitely learned a lot from actually, but they, that they derived from work, their identity was somebody that could manage a crisis like you've never seen.

26:30They would, when the systems went down back in those days, we were not moving money. That's a big deal to everybody behind. We used to call it the fishbowl where the executive sat behind this glass wall. And so the CEO, COO and CEO would come out along with the CIO and they would come to, you know, this individual's office and they'd be like, what do we do? And he's like, don't worry, I got it. we had this giant network operations center. It was very 24-like, if you remember 24. So we would all go in there and we would be like, yeah, we were like writing code and watching what was happening, you know, with the payments.

27:03And, you know, there was even a time where he used his own personal credit card to, because we had, our cloud provider had gone down and he's like, I just need to set up a new tenant. And he used his own personal credit card. So he was awesome in a crisis, but it was the quiet moments between the crises that really defined this individual. and what led me to really understand that, you know, it was exciting watching this person work, especially as a new employee. I'm like, wow, so we're here at like 2 a.m., adrenaline's flowing, we crushed this problem. And it was great until it happened the next time.

27:35And then it happened again, the exact same way. And I said, well, gosh, I'm still young, I'm still new here, but maybe I can see why it's happening. It's because this piece of code was written in such a poor way, there's no error handling, not to get too technical. But the idea is I'm like, if we can rewrite that code and I can put in the error handling and we can redeploy it, we could actually stop this entire thing from happening ever again. And it's almost like I was talking to two different people. There's the version of that manager that's in the operations center handling the crisis. And then there's this more muted version behind the scenes that is just like, yeah, it might sound like a good idea, but I really need you to work on, you know, you know x y and z and i'm like but if we don't this is going to happen again and then it happened a fourth time we're up to like two three in the morning and i'm like i'm like looking around am i the only person i'm looking at my peers are like no this is crazy we could fix this easily and what i realized again i did dive into my the motivation right so this person what's that about yeah this person feels that their function is putting out fires that's why the organization feels valuable And to the point where they're like, if I'm not putting out fires, what good am I?

28:48I'm not going to get any attention from the C-suite. The C-suite's not going to just show up at my door asking how I can help this out. And so I love the fires. It's rewarding. There's a lot of adrenaline. I get high fives from executives when I'm done. Why would I want to stop these fires? Like, you know, I don't want to be a fire department with nothing to do. But what you really don't realize is that fires leave damage, right? Like imagine if you had little fires in your apartment. no one would, you know, be high-fiving you. Thanks for putting the fire out. They'd be like, okay, how do I prevent these fires?

29:20How do I prevent forest fires from happening? Because they damage people. They damage systems. They damage the organization. So the firefighter was challenging for me to deal with. So that was the motivation. Once I understood, it was all about like, I don't have any value unless I'm putting these things out. We had to switch it. So I said, well, what about we, the new metric is days without incident. How about that? How about you now become the person that prevents fires from harming the organization. And your metric is how long you've gone on this. So in this example, you suggested that to this leader.

29:52Yes, but only after I respectfully said that, listen, I know what it's left to put out these fires. I'm there with you. You know, I'm there with you and I love it. But what's happening to the team, the damage that it's doing, the challenges associated with why people came to work here, we're not there and we're not experiencing it. So I know it's important to put out fires, but I think there's a more valuable way that we can be seen and gain visibility at the executive level. It's days without incident. And we actually got one of those, you know, days without incident notepads from Staples and we hung it in his office.

30:28And that was, and this individual was motivated by, you know, core metrics. It used to be numbers of fires that you put out, number of incidents handled. And now it's days without incident. And that really turned this person around. Wow. The fact that you knew how to do that and got the person excited about it, I don't see many employees doing that. It took a while to get there. So first, what happens when you're in a situation and you're experiencing a behavior, an unhelpful behavior, I'll call them, that you've never experienced before. Like I call a conference room betrayal, right? So there's an archetype that I have, which is the amnesiac or the raw nerve is a good one.

31:16The raw nerve is somebody that is just so distracted that anything that happens, they are just like, I got to react to it. So as an example, pretty much, but it's also puzzling because they can just turn on a dime and betray you in a meeting where you would previously. So in this example, we were trying to move cloud providers and I had done all months of research and stood up, you know, mission teams and did proofs of concept with both vendors. We had arrived at a conclusion and we were about to present our evidence to this chief data officer. And my manager at the time was like, you have everything you need.

31:53I'm like, yes. So here are the first points we're going to hit, second points, third points. That was Friday. Meeting was on Monday. We're in the conference room. Everybody files in. It was in person. which was rare back then we start presenting and then my manager leans back and they're like yeah I was on Reddit yesterday and I read this platform people hate it and this person on Reddit was really trashing it so I'm not sure if this is the right thing for us to do Eric like what's happening you're supposed to be in my corner supporting this you know the work we've done and all of a sudden a Reddit post just hit a nerve yeah and change their mind no data underneath that post that's just an anecdote a minority anecdote story that they read on a social media platform over the weekend right by the way no they also talked to their neighbor who was in the business and they're like yeah perfect so that's two two sources out of the entire empirical evidence body i gathered now the reason i'm telling this story this is the raw nerve archetype i write about in the book but the reason i'm telling this story is i had i didn't have the tools to i just felt wronged i felt betrayed I felt why would you do this to me yeah and what what does that say about my relationship with you like maybe there's an alternative means that you're just trying to make me humiliate me make me defend you know or maybe this is some kind of weird trial you're putting me through or some some weird test I didn't really understand it and so I didn't say anything after that meeting for a while because I was so what do the kids say in my feelings right yeah so but what I what I really had to understand was that this was not about me as an individual.

33:31And sometimes that realization is challenging for early in career folks because it feels personal. The embarrassment, the betrayal, the, you know, having to scramble. And I did a pretty good job. I'm a pretty good, you know, scramble quarterback when I need to be, but I was just perplexed is really after I stripped away all the negative emotions. I'm like, what is this? And so, yeah. So you're saying like how rare it is for early career folks to have that gear, find the curiosity, find the motivation. So you have to go, you have to process your emotions and feel your feelings for sure. But after you've done that, try to understand why they're behaving that way.

34:08So this leader is got the attention span of maybe like a squirrel, right? And so, and sometimes - That movie up the dog squirrel. Yeah, exactly. And then sometimes in reality, that's not to say they're any less capable or any less intelligent or any less deserving of the position that they're in. But in reality, like if you dig down deep enough in that example, they're just nervous about making a recommendation. They're trying to, and it's coming out and leaking out in all sorts of weird ways, right? And so they're trying to kind of sabotage their project, which I'm leading ahead of time. It's almost like pre-failing.

34:46So that they can be like, I knew this wasn't going to be a good idea. Right. And so that's kind of what, once I understood that I said, well, let me spend some time with you. Let me, listen, I know this is a big decision and it feels like if it goes wrong, it's going to be laid at your feet. But if we open up our heads and tell everybody what our thought process is and what, you know, fueled our decisions and what data we used, no one could be like, Hey, this is your fault. Right. Right. Yeah. And so that's kind of how I approach that situation. but you have to really get through the fact that I think I used it.

35:20I probably, I probably stole this from somebody. It's called Q-tip, quit taking it personal. And that's the toughest thing. So once I quit taking it personally, I then started to be like, why, why are they behaving this way? There's got to be a reason why a reasonable person would behave this way. I only have one that I haven't been able to figure out. And I don't know whether, I don't know the person ended up getting let go at some point, But, and as you were talking about this archetype, I was thinking like maybe that was what they were, but, but this person took it a little bit further and maybe it's more narcissism.

35:55And I don't know what you think about, about this, but, but, you know, we would have similar conversations. We would say, okay, we discuss something. All right. Do you agree? Yes, I agree. I'd go in and present and do the conversation. And then the person would be like, it was almost like they'd never even heard of it before. Right. And they're like, what are you even talking about? And I'm like, we literally had this conversation yesterday. I walked you through. And I would be saying this in the meeting, like I walked you through it. And then this person would be like, we never had that conversation.

36:33And the fact that you think we did, is an issue. I'd be like, am I crazy? That's a reality distortion field. I'm pretty sure like we did. And it was, I think they were just, I don't know. I think they were a bit of a narcissist and maybe a bit crazy, but you know, it was why it sounds pathological. That's beyond just being a professional that's overloaded or fearful or insecure, that is pathological. Listen, I'm not a clinician, but that is challenging. Yeah, there's other stories that I won't tell, but yes, I mean, but so, I mean, and that's an extreme. Like most people are not like that. I think I just got very unlucky in that situation.

37:22But most people, to your point, if you get curious, there's a reason why and generally would you sum it up as fear i would say fear uh is a component i would say insecurity is probably the biggest one because we're talking about in the end of the at the end of the day we're talking about people's livelihoods here right so um i think uh there's a saying and it's usually expressed in crudel language but it takes uh what is it how's it go it takes one oh poop to destroy like 10 attaboys, right? There's probably a better way to say it, but it's true, right? And so their goal is to avoid any type of negative fallout, any type of victim, you know, fault, you know.

38:09And so it comes from having a fixed mindset. And so what's interesting is Carol Dweck wrote a book called Growth Mindset, maybe about 10, 15 years ago. I love this book. In fact, when I got it, I had an opportunity to spend time as part of a leadership group at Microsoft with Satya Nadella, who transformed the culture of Microsoft, because I'd grown up there during the Balmer and Gates days, night and day companies for the better when 2014 struck and Satya took over. So he sent a book. He says, everybody that's coming to the leadership conference needs to read this book. And the book was Growth Mindset.

38:42I'm like, I'm Eric Sharron. Of course I have a growth mindset. And their admins reached out. They're like, if you're going to attend this session, then you need to make sure you read this book because he's going to ask. I'm like, oh, rats. Okay. So I should read this book. First 20 pages changed my life. It became less about fearing failure and trying to make your failure sound like successes and more openly admitting your failures and saying, here's what I learned. And this is what I'm going to do better next time. It's less about being perceived smart and flawless and more about learning it all and being a grower and thinking about how you can take what you failed at and then make it successful and deliver results.

39:20So typically when I encounter people that are having this fear or insecurity, it's because they are in a fixed mindset mode. And that's not a fault for anybody, but the goal is to kind of manage upwards and show your leader that you can actually extol failures. You can have a slide that says what went well, what went wrong, and what did we learn? Like that's the whole, you could actually be really open about it. Yeah, no, I love that. And I love that you're saying that. And that book was a good book. And I loved it too when I read it. And I think I want to get in because we're running out of time, which is really sad because I'm having so much fun.

39:53But I wanted to do a couple more things. First, I want to get into a little bit about some advice for employees and then some advice for leaders, because I think that that's really important. So if I'm an employee, whether I'm new in my career, but I think it's, you know, especially for newer folks, because you're just learning. But even if I'm in my career and I haven't, you know, I haven't done this, like what's your advice for me to navigate this? One, I should get your book. Yeah, yes, definitely. I was going to say that there's so many lessons. There's so many lessons that I learned over the 25 years I've been doing this.

40:30I would say first, don't try to not feel your feelings. process your feelings and your emotions. I am not a very emotional person. You can ask my wife or anyone that knows me, but that's because I've been through so many things that I'm like, oh, I've been here before. Nothing surprises me. Nothing shocks me. Me neither. Yeah. So knock on wood when you say that, but like you've seen, you've been around the block, right? Yes, I have. But for early career people, definitely process your feelings, but also remember that it's not personal. Many times it's not personal. Assume that it's not personal.

41:00Assume that this is just a bad set of behaviors that this person is using as tools and they don't know any better. Have that be your going in assumption and then develop your curiosity. Figure out what is the core motivating factor? What is it like to be this person? How difficult is it? And if you don't know and you can't imagine because you don't have that depth of experience, ask them. Say, it seems like this is what I'm noticing, but it seems like it must be tough on you for these reasons. Yeah, get curious. Get curious, absolutely. Once you've figured out that motivation, and maybe the frame for this book will give you a good set of archetypes in which you can be like, oh, I've seen these behaviors before.

41:39Because mid-career, you're going to see these behaviors repeat. These tools are systemic, right? And so the other thing I would say is try to grow your manager. Try to be of service. I often tell my new managers when I meet them, it's like, my job is to never surprise you and to make sure that you're fully aware of everything that we're doing and that you're fully supportive. So the goal would be to be of service to your manager. My job is to make your life easier and not surprise you. So how can I do that best? How can I help you? And people think about that, like, you know, that managing up aspect as like, you know, ass kissing and it's like, yeah, no, it's not that it's not that it's like, and it's not like you covering your own ass either.

42:21It's like, it's just communication. It really is. And it's managing up or better yet. I don't even think we should call it managing up. Managing expectations for anyone is important. It really is. You have to grow. Sometimes you have to grow your manager. I think a lot of early in career folks have this all, because I know I did, of your managers. These are people that are senior, more senior than you. they literally hold your economic welfare and your career prospects in their hands and the organization has imbued them with a sense of authority because they must have done a good job to get to this position and so there's this there's this yeah this is there's this halo effect that a new early in career person has with their managers before the bad behaviors start to manifest and then it's like well how can this person that's been kind of like has this halo So treat me this way.

43:16It must be me. I must not. So the other thing I would tell early in career people is know your worth. And I'll tell you this because we hire a ton of early in career people. I'm fortunate enough to be in talent reviews for these people. We value early in career people. We value people coming in from the outside that think differently or don't have biases or haven't been in this business for 20 years that are going to be the next groundbreaking people. And many organizations say they want that, but I actually do want that. because typically when you come into an organization, they're like, okay, don't be too different now because this is how we do things here.

43:49Yeah. A little bit, but not really. Yeah. Yeah. Just don't be too different to make me uncomfortable, which is really what you need. You need to make people uncomfortable. But so there's that confusing, but know your worth is the most important thing because you can try every bit of advice that I give in this book. But I think I write about in the second, the second half of the book, which is sometimes it may not work out and you have to know yourself enough to say it's time for me to find a new leader my father always told me never look for a job no no it goes look for a job when you're happy with the one you have because if you're running from a burning building you could run out of that building and run into a building that's more on fire than the one you have right because everything looks good when your house is on fire yeah right so smart guy it's so true very good advice when when it's burning down don't don't be running into the next burning building because you're desperate at that point.

44:38So, okay, now let's shift to leaders. What's your advice to leaders? My advice to leaders is to try to be self-aware and to challenge yourself. So like earlier in the context conversation we had is that they don't know what you know. You have to cascade the information that you're getting. And the context is probably like the oil or the glue that holds the team together. It makes things operate smoothly. People understand the stakes. They're not operating with an insufficient component of what their role is and what their job is and why it's important. And it also actually helps your team because they feel that you're investing in them.

45:15It makes them feel like you care about them and that you don't just think of them as cogs doing a job. And so cascading those things are super important, providing that context. Yeah, no. And the only thing I'd add on that is like, I think I got really good at knowing my limitations as a leader. And I would just say to people very openly, these are the things I'm really good at. I'm really good at this. I'm really good at that. I'm not great at this. I've tried to be, but I'm not ever going to be, I don't think. I keep trying though. So don't, you know, don't hate on me yet. I'm going to keep trying.

45:57You know, this is what you can expect. You can expect this from me. And here's what I expect from you. And also I want to hear from you, right? Like if I'm not doing well on this dimension or that dimension, or you need more or less from me, I want you to tell me. And I think when leaders can be very honest about what they're great at and what they're not great at, have that self-awareness, but then open in feedback and regularly ask for it. And because they're not just going to give it to you because again, of this halo effect and you're anointed, you're the, you know, whatever. I always tell people like when they're promoting, I'm like, congratulations.

46:40Now you, you know, now you have a crown. Um, just don't act like you do, you know, and, but it, I bet it's truly people then kind of from that day forward, see you differently and treat you differently. And they, because there's a lot at stake, they're not always going to tell you the truth. That's definitely true. As much as you can open up the door to the truth, I think it's the better. Sometimes also hearing the truth is difficult and challenging. And the goal for you is to not, to restrain becoming defensive, to restrain the fact that, hey, this person that's two organizational levels of seniority below me actually diagnosed something and delivered a recommendation.

47:21And I actually need to, you know, be self-aware, not react emotionally. And that's, that's tough for a lot of people. You know what I learned to do? And listen. Yeah. You know what I learned to do? Not to say anything, but thank you. Yeah, exactly. Just say, thank you. I'm going to go think about that. Right. Thank you. That's a great line. The other technique I use to actually have the other person walking away feeling heard, and this is upwards and downwards, like, you know, up and down the org chart, is use five words. What I hear you saying is. Yeah. So even if you don't agree, they will feel like they've been listened to because you now understand them.

48:02You didn't defend. You didn't contain. You didn't put it in a box, right? And so that works up and down the org chart. That's perfect. Okay. I forgot to tell you when we were talking before we started recording, we do these things called career confessions. It's where listeners send in questions and then we give them work advice. Will you do one with me? Yeah, sure. Sounds fun. And before we get into that, I always ask our guests to leave a little advice, a little something you want to give to the listeners. So before we get into career commissions, is there a nugget or something you want to leave us all with today to think about?

48:40Maybe two. Okay. Be bold, but don't be foolish. And then know your worth. Maybe those are the two best nuggets that I can give. I love both of them. I really have enjoyed this so much and I don't want to say, but we're in a career confession. I'm going to set up the question and then we can both give them some advice. Okay. I've spent years adjusting myself to leaders whose emotional chaos dictated my day. Sometimes I wonder how much of my career has been shaped by managing them instead of doing my actual work. So here's the question. How do I learn to actually lead my team instead of constantly having to manage my leader in places they aren't even aware?

49:22That is an amazing question because the more senior you become, the more it is about stakeholder. They call it stakeholder management. And really what it is is catering to the whims of people whose opinions actually matter because of where they sit in the org chart. Right. As callous as that sounds, that's the honest truth. If you want to take a negative look at it, I'm a positive person, but that's really what that's all about. So what I would say is if you're doing that in perpetuity, it means that you are managing the noise, but you're not getting to the root of the problem. At least that's the way I would look at it myself if I was thinking critically about the scenario you positioned.

49:58because I'm actually fighting the fires around the emotional volatility, but I'm not actually solving it. Now, sometimes you just get difficult people. Like the example you gave earlier, that sounded quite pathological, right? But assuming that that's not the case, and which might be my experience, that's not in the majority of cases. There are people there in which you basically have to say, well, I'm managing the volatility, but what's at the core of the volatility? How many different things cause this to happen? It's that curiosity that you need to look at this person with and say, what could it be like to sit behind their desk?

50:36What storms are coming or rolling downhill? How can I actually let this person know I'm there for you? Count on me. And how can I then say, even if you don't want to be. But again, it's like eating your vegetables or paying for insurance. it's going to pay off because it's going to make your life less chaotic because it causes you not to have to respond to reactions on stuff that's coming at them. So if you can actually figure out the motivation and the cause, and then work towards extinction of that behavior by helping them and growing them, then I think you're going to spend more time growing your own team and less reacting to the volatility.

51:12So it goes from building a thick skin, but still having the emotional eruptions kind of hit that thick skin to saying that you know what I had a thick skin and I value my thick skin but I'm actually going to work to prevent the eruptions from happening happening to begin with and I'm going to help you do it yeah no I love that you know I think oftentimes I don't think it's just in work I think it's in life but we often don't try to put ourselves in other people's shoes. That's right. And I, I'm a positive person too. And I think most people are good. There's like a few people that aren't good and whatever, but most people are good.

51:54And we're often more, we're not as far apart as we think we are. That's right. And when, and when you don't come at it from like, let me put myself in their shoes and try to of experience things from their perspective and also get curious about, about it. Um, and just, well, they should know, you know, they should just know that they shouldn't be this way and they should just know. Well, a lot of times they don't know. That word should is a very dangerous word when you're, when you're in these situations, figure out how many times, yeah, figure out how many times you say should, or you think should, and then say, well, that's not the way that it is, But this is a great observation because it's difficult to put yourself in somebody else's shoes when you're in the throes of experiencing that emotion.

52:42So you have to kind of work through the emotion. And then you just have to come to the realization while you're becoming curious, you're coming to the realization that most people are, in my opinion, most people are good. They just have bad tools and they don't know any better. And so once you understand the tools are bad. Exactly. they they're they're doing things how they were either figuring out or they've seen other people do it right exactly and that's why they don't know they don't know they're doing these things and that they're terrible and they don't know what to do that's right because nobody ever taught them exactly oh my gosh eric you have just made me so happy today i could talk to you for another hour about same same yeah yeah what's that isn't there a movie like bad bosses isn't it yes that It is a movie.

53:27Jason Bateman, I think, was in it. Yeah. Yeah. Great movie, by the way. Yeah. But I hope you come back. I'm happy to come back. Absolutely. If our listeners want to find out more about you and buy the book, I'm guessing they get the book anywhere books are sold. That's right. You can go to Amazon. You can search for, you know, Have You Ever Had a Boss That with my name, Eric Chiron. Definitely love to hear what folks think about it, good or bad. I'd love, you know, if you loved it, drop a note on Amazon, review it. If you didn't like it or you have different opinions, also drop a note on Amazon and let me know what you think about it.

54:03You can find me at author Eric Charon on TikTok and Instagram. But yeah, that's where I hang out most of these. Yay. Well, I am so grateful you came on the show. And I, you know, now we're friends forever. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for having me. It's been great. You're welcome. Thanks for listening to TruthWorks.