The Truth About Gen Z at Work with Jeff LeBlanc

0:00I have a thought. Do you want me to give my honest thought? or you want to give a more cleaned up polish? No, this podcast is called Truth Works. So we want the truth, Jeff. Okay, always.

0:15What would happen if we just told the truth? Welcome to Truth Works, where we dig into the nitty gritty of leadership and work. And what needs to change. I'm Jessica Neal. And I'm Patti McCord. Our journey together started in HR, But trust us, it's evolved into something wild, honest, and, well, a bit rebellious. So throw out the handbook. We're here to redefine rules to work for us, not against us. Let's dive into another episode.

0:51Hey, welcome to another episode of TruthWorks. I am here with this incredible human named Jeff LeBlanc. and we are going to talk all things about Gen Z today. And my partner in crime, Patty, isn't here. She's got some stuff going on, but Jeff and I are gonna just get into it. He has immersed himself in the world of Gen Z and he is gonna help us unpack all the things, misconceptions, truths, what have you about this new generation. There's this perception of they don't wanna work that hard. I get a side gig, a hassle. I want to just collect my paycheck. I'm quiet quitting. I'm whatever. I work an hour a day, but I make$300 ,000 a year.

1:41I don't know. And Jeff is going to help us really understand how to embrace this generation, how to work with this generation. And we've talked about this on the show a little bit, but I think Jeff's going to bring a whole new perspective to it. So Jeff, welcome to the show. Can you tell our listeners who you are and how you got into doing this type of work in the first place? Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, first and foremost. So I am, yes, Jeff LeBlanc. I am a lecturer at Bentley University. You know, my road to this whole Gen Z world, as we'll call it, was a little, I guess, winded, a lot winded.

2:20We'll just say it. To sum it up quickly is essentially I started teaching when, you know, I come from a small business background, blue collar background. I'm working, doing different jobs. I worked in radio for a little while. So not on like a podcast. I can see that with your voice. You have a nice voice. Yeah. And ultimately what happened is I got a call to teach an eight o 'clock class to a freshman. And And I found myself as a millennial teaching Gen Z and teaching what was so interesting about it was I was teaching Gen Z sort of the first half of Gen Z. Right. So we've been right. The older Gen Z.

3:02Exactly. So it's so right. And there's all this talk now of, you know, there are two Gen Zs and this and that. There's so much. And so it was interesting because I was basically as long as I've been teaching, I have been working with Gen Z. Like, I mean, I had other students, of course, and graduate and what have you, different opportunities. But ultimately, it was this Gen Z, this cohort that I was working with. And so I found myself frustrated with employers and with the situation. And what I should say is the miscommunication. I found myself, I was spending day in and day out, right, with these students, these adults, but, you know, young adults.

3:42And I would talk to them and, you know, because I wasn't too far removed. It was like the perfect amount, you know. Like you're still close enough to their age that you can be relatable. Especially at that time. At that time, I was especially close, you know. And that was an opportunity where I wasn't I was hearing from employers like that knew it worked with my father or that worked for the Chamber of Commerce and different things in my community. I was hearing Gen Z's lazy. They didn't even call them Gen Z. They called them millennials first. They didn't even know that Gen Z was lazy. You're like, hey, that's my generation.

4:20Exactly. Call me whatever, but let's make them out of it. And so they basically were saying, you know, all these things. They don't want to show up. They're showing up late and all these things that I wasn't seeing. Right. I was seeing something very different. And I understand it's a different context. Right. Like school is a little different than work. And yeah. Exactly. It is. But long story short, led me to my dissertation, which was an incredible opportunity because, as you may have noticed, I enjoy talking to people. I love meeting new people. And that's what I did. I interviewed members of Gen Z and their employers.

4:59What ended up happening is, you know, I was finding that both generations, you know, I was interviewing people from pretty much every generation. No one was left out. And the similarities were more frequent than the differences. The problem was what they looked like, right? It was the same sport. Like give us an example with new players. Yeah. So a perfect example I can think of is what I call the I'm going to be late to work dilemma. So I this this came up repeatedly. I can't say how many times. Like with Gen Z, like they're going to be late to work. Yeah, with both. So with both sides, right?

5:41It was a major issue. It surprised me. And so the Gen Zers pretty much thought that it was acceptable to text their boss that they were going to be late. Sure. They not only found that it was acceptable, but what I found interesting was they thought that it was a good idea, right? They thought that their employers were busy and they didn't want to be interrupted or need to be interrupted with a phone call or an email. Yeah. The employers, nine times out of 10, I would say, including, I think the only one was not a millennial. I think even the millennial that I interviewed was on this side, felt that something more.

6:24They couldn't always answer what that more was. Right. Someone wanted a phone call. Oh. Someone wanted, you know. But something more, they would say. Because the perception was that they weren't taking it serious. It's like, I'm going to be late to work again. Exactly. I'll text you later. Exactly. And I'll show, you know, and I'll show. And, you know, the. But that's how they communicate, through text. Exactly. And the phrasing of the texting, of course, is a major issue. BRB. Right. Probably not ideal. But it was so interesting to me that, you know, it was the idea that, you know, they were one, they were doing it right.

7:06They were doing something. And that's not what, you know, before it started this this study. So many of them were saying, well, you know, and they just don't care. They don't they don't communicate. They don't do this. Well, wait a minute. You just said that they text you. So that is a form of communication. Right. Right. And so in other words, where where's the structure here? Where's the clarity? And that's what kept coming up and led to the bleep model and that sort of thing. And so, you know, I think that applies to a lot of people. So to me, I saw Gen Z more as opening doors and doing things that were not all that different, but maybe being the first to do it in a way that was a little different.

7:53And don't get me wrong. From the employer's perspective, if they wanted a phone call, in my opinion, that's their business, right? That's their right as the employer. But my conclusion was, let's just say that, right? They don't know that's what you want. Exactly. You know, they're just doing what they do. Exactly. And then as younger generations coming up are going to be even more that way. I know. It's a little scary. No, it's not. It's scary. So then you sort of have this, you know, you do your research, you have your aha, and then you come up with a model. Yes. And what, tell us about this model.

8:32The model is called the Engage in Empathy Leadership Model. ELM, I guess you could call it for short. Okay. And the reason that I call it this is because there were consistently, when I would interview Generation Z, not even interview, but survey. And this will, you know, that's one of the things that would come up was the idea of organization and structure. Right. That idea. And that did not shock me because having worked with them a lot, I understood that they were probably the generation and the type of students that and people that were. I don't want to say coddled. That's the wrong word, but had a little bit more handholding then.

9:10But that is, you know, that is something that's said all the time about that generation is that they, you know, they were told that they were the most special. They were sort of on the sports teams where everybody got a trophy there. You know, there wasn't, you know, a lot of demands. I mean, and be that true or not, that is a perception. In my opinion is, and again, based upon working with them so much, is that it is true. And I think it's also true somewhat for millennials. So my theory was, okay, so they want this. They want this structure, this clarity that kept coming up with a lot of other ones.

9:53But kindness was also in there, right? Empathetic. And so for me, my idea was, what can we do? What can I do to say, okay, we're going to lead with kindness and lead with clear communication and be empathetic towards each other. However, we're not going to lower our standards. And so that's where these three pillars come in, right? The kindness, the structure, the fairness. The idea that we are going to lead with and be open-minded, be kind, be empathetic towards each other. But we're not going to lower our standards because we're going to be very clear. We're going to be very, very fair in terms of, you know, what's expected.

10:32So going back to the text example, you know, it's going to be made clear on day one because I think that's necessary. I don't disagree. I mean, I see this in organizations all the time and clarity and context is a real problem. Like people just don't have it. They don't, they don't know what to do. They don't, their bosses don't set expectations. The company doesn't do a good onboarding process. Like there's all these things. And you know, if you, if you go a couple layers deep within an organization, people don't know what the priorities are. You go and talk to them. They don't know what the most important thing for the business is.

11:07So I totally get that. But I want to talk about fairness a little bit because I believe in things being fair for sure. But I think that sometimes, and not just this generation, I think, you know, this is millennials and others, but sometimes people think fair means equal. Right. And that's not true in business. Nope. I completely agree. And that's where I like to clarify the fairness portion that I put in. So in other words, what I believe is fair in the workplace is being, it sort of ties into the idea of both kindness and the structure. I'd say it's somewhere in the middle. It's the other thing is clarity, right?

11:55To me, fairness is knowing the rules of the game. So in other words, an employee, and I've noticed that especially through teaching, right? One of the biggest issues is that students will sort of throw the word fair around, not necessarily expecting that everyone's going to get an A or that everyone's going to get a B, but that they know what the rules are. So in other words, I think, you know, I've talked to companies that say, you know, well, we really value seniority. That is really seniority is really what our number one, you know, when we look to, you know, make promotions, seniority plays a large role.

12:38OK, then let's let's let people know that. Right. I think, again, going back to clarity, it's the most important thing that you can do, right, is to make things very clear. but even when things are clear, I have seen organizations maybe struggle because there's, and maybe this is a good thing, I don't know, but this generation tends to advocate for themselves a bit more than other generations. Like I was grown up, you know, and my parents were like, you don't ask for a thing. You put your head down, you work hard, and if you do it, the good things will come. So I never asked for a thing because I thought I'd get fired if I did.

13:18But this generation seems to have zero concerns about that. And, you know, they come in and they've been in the job for a month and they're like, I'd like to be a director. And you're like, well, you've not done anything, you know, or they come in and say, I was looking at the salaries and I think I should make more money. And here's what I want to make. And I think organizations are perplexed by this and it comes off as entitlement. Right. And so there's just I see there's just just this tension in terms of like where they think they are, but maybe where they are in reality. Yeah. You know, I mean, with the self-advocacy, you know, I'll say I'm I'm guilty of this because I encourage my students, right, to self-advocate, to be very much.

14:10I think it's a good thing. I wish I wish I would have done that. And I blame my parents. And if you're listening, thank you. Because I mean, I had an amazing career and hard work also does pay off. Right. But I think if I had hard work and was able to advocate for myself a little bit more, you know, that could have been interesting. And that's where I think Gen Z can be helpful because you're right. I do think that. So that's But what if, okay, so let's agree that advocacy is good. But what if they're advocating and there's just no way, like, you know, that they should be, I think there's like a shock because there's like, I can't believe they're asking me this.

14:58Like they've been here for four weeks and they want to be a director and they just graduated college. Yeah. And so, I don't know, people's brains get a little shook. No, it's funny you say that because I've talked to a few colleagues that have said that exact same, you know, different consulting work that they've been recently. You know, they've come to me and they've said, you know, these these managers, supervisors are talking to their employees and they like their employees. They're young employees. They're great. But within, like you just said, in some instances a month, they're coming and they're asking these sorts of things.

15:34And so I do think that that I would agree that that is an issue. And that's why one of the things, again, that I would, you know, suggest, right, and that recommended, and that's where clarity comes in. But let's assume that the clarity, the structure, all of that is there. And there's still a miscommunication. That's when I really think older generations, if, you know, they're willing, can be and really be an incredible resource for Gen Z. Because I think that I find myself even saying this sometimes to them as well, because, you know, in higher ed, I see it all the time with their grades. Right.

16:14The grade isn't enough. Right. The A minus, which is fantastic. Yeah, it's great. It needs to be an A. Right. Where does that come from? I know. And I think it's, well, I think that's a whole other conversation because I think there's a lot of pressure. I think there's a lot of pressure to be perfect. There's a lot of social media, I really think. Oh, yeah. Because it's seeped in because they, you know, sort of are always, we've talked a lot about even LinkedIn envy. LinkedIn envy. Yeah, that they suffer from, you know, not only, you know, looking on Instagram in some instances with my students, they said has become sort of less of a concern, right?

16:56The idea of they realize that these are, you know, fake influencers and these are people that are, you know, living lives that are exaggerated. But LinkedIn envy, they've talked about being very real and sort of seeing their peers and seeing their peers' parents talk about them and different things and really sort of setting expectations that aren't always true. You know, we see these stories. I'm right out of college. I have 54 weeks vacation. I have, you know, all these different things and they're made up. I mean, it's fiction. It's fun to read, but it's not real. Right. Right. And I don't think it's just Gen Z that feels that.

17:32But I think the difference is because they're so inexperienced, they don't always see through. They're more experienced with like Instagram and TikTok. Yeah. Which we are not. Right, exactly. Not at all. But when it comes to something like LinkedIn, I think they sometimes think it's completely true when we know that that's not always the case. People are doing the same thing on LinkedIn. In other words, I think that if generations can be that, take that time, be patient, use that empathy, think about, you know, in their shoes, right? You were, as an older generation, we didn't necessarily have that feeling of being self-advocates.

18:09And maybe we appreciate that about them, right? We both agree. I do. We like that. So maybe harnessing it and using it, right? And finding a way to sort of, and if that doesn't work, then well, then maybe they're just not, you know, maybe there's a good problem. Of course. Well, I think that that's an interesting, good perspective because I often see managers, leaders just get frustrated with that. They're mad. Like, it's like, how could they? How could they even come to my office and ask me for that? It's absurd. Right. But I think instead of going to that place as a leader, I like what you're suggesting is like go to an empathetic place to be like, OK, maybe this is a moment to teach them.

18:57Right. To help them because they're just doing sort of what they've been told to do. Right. And so they don't know. And maybe things aren't clear how it works in your company. Maybe they are. But even if they are or aren't, the frustration probably isn't going to help either side. Right. But like seeking to understand and looking at it as a moment to teach and be empathetic might actually work. I think so. And I think that sometimes it may be a little uncomfortable, you know, but we're going to be working with, you know, five or so generations in the workplace, you know, potentially. That's a great opportunity.

19:40It doesn't have to be scary. It's exciting. And each generation can bring. And there's things, you know, that Gen Z can bring. Right. But I think that if we can take, like I said, I mean, I'll receive upwards, it could be 10 emails, right, about a great, you know, issue. And they're very kind emails. They're not rude. It's truly what they think is, you know, I don't have a problem with it. That's my job. But I have to definitely have a level of patience that I know for a fact, you know, I get emails from students that I would have never sent. And that's as a millennial. And I know my friends would have never said that.

20:19Give us an example. What are one of these emails? Well, just sort of the, you know, the idea of a student saying similar to the work situation, like I really feel like I deserve and earned a 10 out of 10 in participation or something like that. Right. So the idea that they perhaps know a little bit more than the instructor does. Right. And but I don't think they mean it that way. based upon my reaction. Like I said, I really don't think I think - What other way do they mean it though? Well, I think they mean it in a way that they don't even, what I mean is they don't mean it in a rude way. I think what I mean is they see it as a legitimate question to pose, you know?

21:04And sometimes it's been helpful because sometimes, you know, what I've done is I've learned, you know what I need to do with this group? I need to really put out like averages. You know, Once they know that the averages for participation or this assignment or what have you, they're very much into what I've noticed their peers and what their peers are doing. And once they realize, once I say, look, you actually were above average just because you didn't get a perfect score, everything changes. And they relax. Their face changes. And I think that there's a lot of pressure. There's a lot of stress.

21:43I really and I kind of see why. I mean, I'm not, you know, I wouldn't want to be their age again. Personally, no, no, you know, but I wouldn't have wanted to grow up how they grew up with like social media. And I mean, you know, I could go out and maybe get a little wild and it wasn't going to be, you know, on Instagram the next day. Right. And live there forever. Right. And I'm mom and dad. I'm not saying I did that. But, you know, I could. And I think, you know, what happens now is like the way that they interact, the social media impact, maybe even isolation that they feel because of the social media.

22:27And then this comparison that makes a lot of sense, this comparison to peers, because that's what happens on social media. You're comparing yourself to all these other things that you see. And I mean, that's what happens in life, too. But it's just amplified a lot on social media. And there's, to your point, a lot of just exaggerated fiction stories that are being told that make them feel like they have to be that, be perfect, be this, you know. And like I always say, you know, look, I'm not saying, you know, no generation is perfect. No generation is a monolith. I mean, there's variations of Gen Z, and there's by no means am I saying they are perfect in any way.

23:09But one of the things that I just find that is a little different is, and I think you saw a little bit of this with millennials, but I don't think I experienced it to this extent, is the sort of willingness to just sort of write them off. that kind of bothers and worries. It should worry everyone because this is sort of, this is a workforce we have, right? This is the, and it's probably going to get even more challenging, I would say, as we hope, because COVID certainly, that situation is something we're still processing in education. Oh, I know. I think what it is, is maybe past generations, like you said, you didn't ask for as many things, right?

23:47We didn't ask for as many things. We weren't is straightforward. But I think that that can be a strength. I think that maybe we're a little jealous that they're doing that. I think so. I think so. I mean, when I see them advocate for themselves, I love it. I just think that if there's someone there to sort of say, you know, just be, you know, let's just rein it in and be careful. And most of them that I've worked with, they don't go over a boundary. But the thing is, the boundary is, I guess, my boundary. Well, Well, I think it depends on the person. Some people I think are a little bit like you shouldn't even be asking this.

24:26Right. Right. And in my mind, it's OK to ask, but it's also OK to tell you. Say no. Yeah. And I think a lot of managers are afraid to say no. Right. Like they're they're also afraid to like push back a little bit. And there's this fear of losing people, whatever. But I don't want to unpack that because you sort of took us to a place which way next question was going to be, like the things we can embrace from this generation. And I think that this is sort of the next generation of leaders of our country, leaders of companies, right? I personally think there's so much to learn from this generation, right?

25:06Because there isn't a fear like around AI like there is maybe with other generations, right? There isn't a fear of breaking down a barrier, right? Of like a right and a wrong, right? They very much want those things there and they want a healthier world, right? But I want to understand from you, what should we be embracing from this generation? And what should we be asking of them? What type of roles do you think companies should be thinking about putting them in? Well, I think one of the first things that I've seen is that the openness and just willingness to say that mental health is something that is not to be ignored.

25:56Right. And I just I find that so remarkable because, you know, for a generation and I think so many of us can learn because there is still we've made a lot of progress. But I do feel there is still stigma, especially for certain groups. And I do feel like Gen Z is just so open about it. If you're willing to listen, that's and that's what I would say. I have had students just be I listen and I don't want to judge them. I want to hear the situation. And they don't have to tell me these things. Right. And I, in some instances, wouldn't even ever expect it. Right. But for them to just be straightforward and not lie and say, this is the situation I was having a really, you know.

26:39And I think that does make some people uncomfortable, their honesty and their ability to just sort of come out with what the situation was and say, you know, I was having a really tough anxiety attack that day. Or I was having, you know, this is, I have ADHD. And, you know, and I think some people that makes uncomfortable. So I think that's one thing we could learn. I think that if, you know, being, because I think it's great because there's nothing to be ashamed of. Of course, yeah. And there's no reason that they should hide that. And I also think that the self-advocacy, I really do. I think that the self-advocacy, let's use that.