Lactation expert: The 'Breast is Best' debate, increasing milk supply & postpartum mental health

29:26But the goal is by the time you hit 12 months, for them to be getting most of their nutrition from solid food, and the milk that they're going to drink will be for hydration and thirst, not for like nutrients like it is when they're breastfeeding and they're little. So can I ask you this? We're starting to our pediatrician at the nine month checkup said to start segueing to solids. And so we've been doing that. But maybe it's something that we should really start doing is like meal like actually sitting and eating the meals with her and then giving her breast milk for hydration it depends on how much food she's eating and how willing she is to eat it but we're always going to feed the baby responsively so we don't want them to be frustrated at the dinner table so like if it's meal time and she's used to getting a big old bottle of milk and then you sit her in front of a drumstick she might be like how the hell am I supposed to get all this in my body I'm hungry right now like I need milk right now because I don't have patience for all this.

30:23And so it's fine to then give her a little milk feed first, not maybe a full feed. And then she'll have the patience and the interest and the curiosity to start playing with the food. Because at first, starting solids is like art class, they get food everywhere except inside their body. And so it takes a little like finessing for them to learn the fine motor skills to get it in their mouth. And that's why we do infant nutrition, because I have a whole course teaching parents like, do you want to do purees? Or do you want to do baby led weaning? And then what kind of foods do they need and how much?

30:51And if you do that, how much milk do they need? Because it is very nuanced once again. But originally, you know, I think your original question, I was talking about like seeing if you actually have a low milk supply. And then like, if the patient does have a low milk supply, then frequent and effective removal. So I would say, let's figure out why you have a low milk supply. Is your baby not removing the milk effectively? And why not? Are they too sleepy? Is there a metabolism problem, which is not very likely? Is there a tongue tie going on? So we'll figure out the baby part. And then the mom part, hey, while we're figuring out baby part, let's get you in a really good pump.

31:29Because I had a mom who was using a pump that is a terrible pump, I'm not going to say the name, and was wondering why she kept getting clogged ducts. We changed the pump right away, clogged duct problem, like gone and milk supply went up. So using a proper pump, using a proper flange fit. And I would say once you have those things in place, pumping for eight times a day, spread out throughout the day. So you will need to wake up at least one time and pump overnight because you have the most milk from about 2 a.m. to about 7 a.m., which is kind of lame, but I'm sorry. That's what happens. And then we'll do that eight times a day for about a week or two.

32:05We should see a milk supply increase within a week's time. And then hopefully we would have figured out what's going on with the baby and we marry you guys back together. So I know everyone's going to ask, what pump do you recommend? I use the Spectra. I love it. Love it. Is that on the approved list? I like the Spectra. There's a lot of good pumps out there. Just a couple that you like. I like Spectra. I like the Motif. I like Zomi makes a pump called Unimom. Love, love, love that pump. Okay. You just have to like sometimes work a little bit to get your insurance to cover it. But those are like my top three.

32:43And some people ask like Spectra 1, Spectra 2. I don't care. All the Spectras are great. I can't speak to any of the – they have the small Spectra. Yeah. I don't have a lot of experience with that one. So I had a friend who had it who said she didn't think it worked as well as the big – I call it the kettlebell. Yeah, that's exactly what it looks like. Yeah, I have the blue kettlebell. I just – I love it. Like that's the one I always recommend. But I did have a friend get the smaller one. She didn't think it worked as well. Take it or leave it. I don't know. Yeah. I didn't try it. And it has a weird like gnarly setting.

33:10Like it's like, like it goes super, super fast. And then the suction speed is super high. Some of those pumps are a little aggressive. Like I feel like you can get assaulted by your pump. You have to be careful. Well, we always laugh. We can hear the pump noise. Julie and I were talking, we can hear it in our sleep. Just and it's like never ending. Shopping and planning for groceries really can be simple and stress-free. Imagine having your weekly cart filled for you with personalized picks then shipped right to your door. Taking all that work off your plate is why I love, love, love Hungry Root.

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34:15Harrison and I are absolutely obsessed with Hungry Roots, especially being new parents. It makes grocery shopping so much easier and effective. Take advantage of this exclusive offer. For a limited time, get 40 % off your first box, plus get a free item in every box for life. Go to hungryroot.com slash two parents and use code two parents. That's hungryroot.com slash two parents code two parents to get 40 % off your first box and a free item of your choice for life. Hungryroot.com slash two parents code two parents. Okay, so now I got to talk to you about this nighttime pumping. Okay. Because I was doing the nighttime pump and then I remember I dropped the nighttime pump.

34:57I dropped it at the end of January. uh no in hawaii in hawaii well because you told her girl you need to get your mind right you need to sleep at night and that's important it was the best thing that happened to me yeah well it kind of goes back to your point on like what you know as as a parent or or mother as a mother is choosing the best path for her like you could see alex reaching her breaking point like or a breaking point and i think two big changes that you made that i think really helped your mental health the first was cutting the night feed and then the second was the switch to combo feeding totally totally that's why you got to own your journey yeah yes yes and that was just what worked for me and it was cutting the night feed the night pump i was pumping um do you pump every three hours?

35:55Is that what it was? At the time, I would pump, yes, every three hours. It's terrible. And then I would do once in the middle of the night. I was exhausted. It's so hard, yeah. I can't believe how telling it is. It's very hard. It's unbelievable. But let me tell you this. This is a flip side. Okay. Is that you do have these patients or moms who are like ride or die. And they're like, nope. Remember I told you I have two kinds of parents? And so you have those that, believe it or not, I have had patients fire me to be like, no, you can't be a malactation consultant because you want me to like not breastfeed as much.

36:27And I'm like, you can't pump, breastfeed, bottle feed. You cannot spend an hour feeding your baby and do that every two and a half hours for two months. Like that's not good for anyone in this. You're almost breeding OCD behaviors. Yes, yes. And so if I'm gonna get on the OCD-ish bandwagon, I'm not doing you a service for your long-term mental health or your marriage. because y 'all got to stay married after this baby, right? No question. So that's why I tell my patients, I just saw a patient today whose baby is one week and five days old. And I said, hey, let's make a plan for each of you to get four hours of uninterrupted sleep.

37:04And I explained to her what that looks like. And I'm like, you go sleep in the guest room from this time to this time. And then you guys tag out and you go sleep in the guest room. And then in the morning, we have less likelihood that we're going to make rash emotional decisions. And we have a higher likelihood that you will still like each other in a week from now. Which is so important. Because, girl, my kids are big, and you still, at the end of the day, they don't even realize the sacrifice you did for them. But your man is still there, and you still got to like him. Totally. 18, 20 years later.

37:31And you want it to be an enjoyable time because it's such a sweet and precious time. But when he would sleep through the night, which we did, we would say, okay. Because at first I thought, no, I want him to get up with me in the middle. Like, if I'm up, then I want him up. Then I said, no, you got to sleep because whenever, and those first, you know, in that first month, right? I've been up so much in the middle of the night when I wake up and I'm just looking at you like this, you know, he can function, which was so important for our relationship. And, but anyways, what I want to ask you is dropping.

38:04A lot of people will ask me, how do I drop the nighttime feed or the nighttime pump? And do you think that's a good idea to drop it? And I know, I know that your answer is going to be like, what works for you, but let me ask it a different way okay what i found was in the morning i still pumped as much milk in the morning so dropping the nighttime feed and the nighttime pump was just a no-brainer for me like my boobs would fill up but i would just get up i'd empty them and i'd have eight ounces good i love that um my answer to that question is i don't think anyone should be dropping the middle of the night feed before eight weeks of life, maybe even 12 weeks of life.

38:44Okay. So a lot of our advice, you know, like the advice I give before two weeks of life is very different than what it looks like after eight weeks of life, because there's a whole slew of physiological things that are happening in your body. And between eight and 12 weeks, we stabilize a little more. So generally speaking, I advise people not to do hands-free pumps or dropping middle of the night feed. So after three months. Okay. And so depending how much milk you make in a 24 hour period, some people who are directly breastfeeding have no idea because they can't measure their baby, right? But if their baby starts sleeping longer at night, then you should sleep longer at night.

39:14You don't have to wake up and necessarily pump. However, you could wake up feeling super lumpy, hard, engorged, and then people can freak out and think they have mastitis when they don't. And that's when, you know, they really do need to have a lactation consultant because they can help them know what to do to manage those symptoms so that it doesn't turn into mastitis. So some people who are ready, let's say your baby's three and a half months old, and you're like, I want to drop this middle of the night feed. And if you are at risk for getting mastitis, like if you've already had mastitis, or you're always getting engorged, then I would say instead of dropping it completely, if you pump for 15 minutes, how about we drop it down to 10 minutes for a couple days.

39:51And then a couple days later, we'll drop it down to five minutes. And then we drop it completely. As long as your breasts are feeling fine, you're not getting mastitis. And you're not like your boobs aren't up to your chin hard you know you're really uncomfortable if all that starts happening they need professional help so we can help manage those symptoms so if someone's listening to this and they haven't had their baby yet but they're planning on trying to breastfeed or to pump in layman's terms kind of what you're saying you pump more you you breastfeed more you produce more you need to scale your boobs start to get so big because you're producing so much you scale it back you go from 15 minutes to 10 minutes and and i remember it up until the three-month mark i would pump more sometimes to increase it.

40:32Then I would pump less because I increased it so much. And then, but at three months it starts to level out. Is that true? Correct. Generally speaking, it's not so labile. Those first two or three months, it's like, sometimes you wonder, am I ever going to fit in my clothes again? Cause your boobs are hoop. Am I ever going to be able to sleep on my tummy again? Like what's all happening here. And then what happens is at eight or nine weeks, 10 weeks, then everything goes back to normal and people freak out. And they think their milk supply is gone because they're not walking around with just these jugs of milk all the time.

41:01And I try when I get my work with my patients in the beginning, I tell them that that's going to happen. And that's, and if you want to be for sure, for sure, let's do another weighted feed. Let's do a consultation, make sure your baby's gaining well. And that's how you know you're making enough milk. But yes, by eight to 12 weeks, things go back to mostly normal. As long as we haven't accidentally been giving ourself an oversupply by nursing your baby and pumping all the time, because then you start making milk for twins oh wait let me just ask you this yes yes what is the difference between breastfeeding and pumping what do you mean difference well like i know like in terms of what the baby gets milk wise like why do some people is it the bond that they exclusively breastfeed there's not a difference in the milk benefits of uh direct breastfeeding compared to pumping yeah listen at the end of the day human milk is where the money's at like human milk getting into your baby's body is where the benefit lies human milk from a mom who likes her life is also really beneficial um people generally there'll be two schools of camp well one will be like i direct fast feed my baby because it's easier for me totally like let's pretend you have two other kids running around and taking out pump and washing pieces and taking it and schlepping it with you and then like storing milk and making sure it doesn't go bad in your purse while you're out at the park or the movies with the kids that's a pain in the ass sometimes but um so that's why they want to latch their baby directly um or being able to roll over in bed and just put their baby on and not have to sit up and be fully alert to bottle and then bottle feed and then pump that's another reason um and then those other people like pumping I like to know exactly what my baby's getting.

42:46I want to be measured. Like I don't want there to be guesswork and I'm at work and this is, I can't bring my baby to work with me to, to nurse. So this is what I do. There have been some studies that say that direct breastfeeding has some, you know, microbial level benefits, but I'm going to tell you as a nurse, you know, putting, cause not all lactation consultants need to be registered nurses. However, I am, I don't know that I have seen enough high quality studies for me to even think twice about that being part of my decision-making process. Okay. So, cause a lot of people will ask me, why do you pump versus breastfeed?

43:24And, and I never, the way I always thought about it from, you know, a 10 ,000 foot view and not having any idea was just breast milk was breast milk was breast milk. Sometimes pumping was easier. Sometimes putting her on the boob was easier, but if I put her on the boob, I could never really tell if she was full and then I always felt like about an hour later she wanted more milk so I just was like oh I'll just do like either or but I never thought a thing of it it's very common okay that was a conversation that felt like we had a lot was when at the beginning when like she was on the boob it was like wait that like do you think she's full do you not think she's full she'd fall asleep like I was just like and then I would be feeding her for an hour because I would breastfeed her and then I would pump and I was like this is not like this it's too long it's taken up my whole day so I would move to pumping because I knew it was 20 minutes and I knew how much milk I made and then how much she got and that was easier for me but I if you were to have another baby though this is a lot of work right now so first thing you should know is that anyone who has a pregnancy past 20 weeks of gestation you make more milk making you know tissue and so let's pretend you're just enough right now don't expect your second baby for you to be a just enough because you're going to make more milk, period.

44:37Oh. So you should know that. And what about foods that can help with milk supply if it is a challenge, whether it be the first baby or second? Once again, even before foods, frequent and effective milk removals is the number one way to increase milk supply. And once you've done that, adding things in like people do, brewer's yeast is really helpful, oatmeal, flax, things like that. And then there are some herbs. There's a really cool company in Austin. I'm going to be on their IG live. It's a big brand, Legendary Milk. Have you used any of their products before? I don't know if you've heard of them.

45:13But, I mean, I love them. And they have these supplements that have cute names like Pumping Princess and Liquid Gold. And some of the herbs that are in their supplements can help improve milk production. Every person is different. and so I just we incorporate that if we're struggling with milk supply and I say hey take these for two weeks if you see an increase then you know it works if you don't see an increase please don't keep taking something that doesn't work but yeah foods would be oatmeal flax brewers yeast and then there would be some herbs that can be helpful but just whenever you're taking herbs I just wouldn't go to like some random place and order herbs because you don't really know what's in them so I like a trusted brand that you know is safe and that's why I'm kind in particular about where I send my patients to get herbs.

46:00You guys, speaking of brewer's yeast, oats, and flaxseed, the best way to get it is through Miracle Mama, which is the maker of the Miracle Milk Cookies, which I have been eating since my friend Katie gifted them to me when I was two months postpartum and I was breastfeeding and I was trying to increase my milk supply. So you guys, it is the tastiest way to get all the goods that will increase your milk supply. So you guys go to MiracleMama.com, click on the Miracle Milk cookies, ship them to your house. They come in a bright yellow box. It's like a sunshine being delivered to your doorstep. And then you get to eat the most delicious treats, which when you're pumping and when you're breastfeeding, you are ravenous for.

46:38And so go get them and use the code 2PARENTS for 20 % off. That's code 2PARENTS for 20 % off at MiracleMama.com. Enjoy. Boy, I'll notice too, if I don't eat protein or if I'm not hydrated, then it's truly I will make two ounces less. But if I've eaten, if I'm up on my hydration, if I drink my protein shake in the morning, I like try to just get so much chicken and turkey and things like that. Is that mental or is that actually affecting it? Hydration and stress are really important. However, the hydration part people take to another whole level and then they start like drinking gallons and buckets of water.

47:15And so the nursing hat on me again once will say if your urine is pale yellow, you're hydrated enough. And, of course, if you took a B12 vitamin, your pee is going to look bright greenish yellow. So, I mean, like without vitamins, your urine should be pale yellow, and that's how you know you're hydrated. You should also know that people in sub-Saharan Africa are very undernourished, and they still breastfeed their babies. So your protein and nutrient content of the breast milk will not change. However, you might just feel terrible that day if you're not getting enough calories. But hydration is really, really important.

47:49And you said something interesting about not knowing if your baby was getting enough when you directly breastfed. So you got comfort in pumping. You know, I would say that's why I work with my patients for the first 8 to 12 weeks, because that's one of the number one things we overcome. Because if you get three or four weighted feeds, like you're able to like feed the baby or weigh the baby before they eat, and then our scale is accurate to two grams or two milliliters and then weigh the baby after and you're like, well, my baby just took four ounces in 15 minutes and she's done that for four visits every time you come, Naomi, then you can have more comfort in knowing that she's getting enough.

48:23Or if I can teach you when to finish nursing on one breast and go to the second, because a lot of people don't know, should I feed on one breast only or both? And is it 15 minutes in 15 minutes? And if we can teach you that, then you get a nice full milk drunk baby for a good two and a half hours. Then you don't feel like you need to have like a backup plan like a pump um but every person just can do as your baby your boobs and you're the boss so you get to make that call do you have a recommendation on one boob versus the other boob like some people have said breastfeed all one boob and drain it and then the next time do the other boob or switch them at every 10 15 minutes do you have a thought oh my gosh that's so complicated um it depends on how old your baby is it makes it depends how much milk you have and it depends what number baby it is because you have so much milk usually in your second and third baby so for people who have an oversupply and you just hear this is what an oversupply sounds like you bring your baby to the breast and they're like and they come off and they get sprayed in the face and they come back on and it's like a hot mess of a feeding right and so that's just like wow it's a lot of stress never been me but but that is just because you like the advice is like i said for each person i would give different advice if that is you then yes you're a one boober and let's feed that baby on one breast for that feeding and drain it.

49:39And then your baby should look nice and satisfied after they eat. If it's 15 minutes after they've eaten and they're fussing again, you can feel your own breasts. You can squirt milk out. You'll know if there's milk there. You're listening for swallow sounds every time you attach your baby. And that's how you know they're getting milk. Now, if this is your first baby and your baby's falling asleep at the breast after five minutes, you need to then wake, change diaper and put them on the other breast. And if She falls asleep again on five minutes, wake, change, put on a cold, hard surface, do some tummy time, and then put them back.

50:10We call that switch nursing. And we have to figure out why they keep falling asleep. Usually when babies are falling asleep at the breast, after the first two weeks of life, it is because there's not enough milk there. The baby has a tongue tie and not able to remove milk effectively. Or they are preterm, 37 weeks or something, 36 weeks, and they just don't have the stamina to do that. To stay awake. And that's after two weeks, though. Correct. Because the first two weeks, they're snacking and tired. and just making you second guess your life choices. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I remember she kept falling asleep and we'd have to blow like cold air on her to keep her awake.

50:42It's hard. It's yes. Little insider tip is I'm stroking them under their chin right here when they're at the breast can actually help them to start sucking again. I love it. But it's still challenging. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, totally. Okay. I'm just going to see. Well, to kind of take it back, maybe 10, 15 minutes, You kind of touched on partner dynamics and obviously the load that mothers and women carry through pregnancy and through breastfeeding if they choose is unbelievable. Like what you have experienced in the nine months prior to Tate and now the 10 months since, like you are truly a hero.

51:32And you kind of on the other end, like she's doing truly the heavy lifting. What are the things that you see fathers do well to support? And what are the things that you see fathers do poorly that create issues in relationships? When, you know, mothers are either breastfeeding or formula feeding. Yeah. um i think one thing that fathers do really well is help temper the mom emotions against reality so what i mean is i come in a mom's like the baby's not feeding the baby's up all night and the baby this and really gassy and then the dad will be like um well what i saw was the baby and they give me good data like okay baby woke up and had three feeds in the last eight hours and the baby ate this amount of ounces and then when it comes to tummy issues this is what i noticed and i feel like they can give me objective information and then can kind of be the truth holder if you will to help us as a team maybe help reassure the mom that while you feel like things are terrible this week compared to last week.

52:55Wow, we've made really great accomplishments. I had a patient yesterday who asked me, her baby's doing amazing and she's doing amazing and the baby's only two weeks old. They're just like rockstar. Everything about them is just amazing. But she's feeling really insecure and she thought her baby wasn't gaining weight because she decided that she wanted to know how much her baby weighed. So she got her husband get on the scale and clocked his weight and then put the, had him hold the baby and get on the scale and try to weigh the baby. and it looked like the baby didn't gain any weight from last week but the scale is not accurate enough right so she was tripping for like the next three days until I came and I weighed the baby and the baby gained amazing weight just perfect right and she was like oh I'm so relieved and the dad was trying to cheer her and he said to me Naomi she doesn't listen to me when I encourage her and tell her she's doing a great job it doesn't mean enough would you mind if I record you a video if I record a video of you telling her she's doing a good job so when I'm not here she might believe it and I was like that's so smart and I was like I'll do you one better I'll make you a giffy I was like I'll do all the silly stupid stuff just to keep my patient's head out of their own head you know what I'm saying and so I thought that was really kind of him and like encouraging another thing I think could be really helpful that dads do is waking up washing all the parts a lot of people do that and being a really good listener because I think sometimes we might as dads want to fix a lot of things or explain away certain things and sometimes just listening so she has a sounding board because being home with a baby is really isolating who you're going to talk to all day and so even if she could just say all the words and get them out of her mouth and know that it's going to not make you feel on edge that's really really really helpful some things that are not helpful sometimes I see this more with engineer type dads is trying to make breastfeeding into an engineering feat.

54:43So for example, this is not helpful. So Naomi, the baby had, you know, 114 milliliters today in a 19 minute feed. Does that mean if the baby feeds for 25 minutes, then the baby should then transfer 146 milliliters? That's not helpful, because that's not how the human body works. And then you're putting way too many brain cells in the wrong bucket as opposed to listening to the advice that I am going to give you so that you can feed your baby effectively because babies are not little machines. Sometimes they want to eat a ton at one feed and maybe the next feed they don't want a ton. And sometimes they'll spit up a lot during this moment and then not spit up a lot the next moment.

55:23So they do not follow like a even and smooth formula. So medicalizing or like engineering infant feeding is not real helpful. Um, and I'm trying to, I just have a lot of really great dads and stuff. So I don't have a lot of negative things. Well, I think the two things that you said that, that really hit home, number one is making the emotions reality. So I've never, we've never talked about this or thought about it, but if, if it's in the early stages, mom's like, she was up all night. I don't, I don't know. But dad says, no, she was up twice. And here's exactly how much she ate or here's how much how long she was on the boob turning it into reality and him tracking that with a sound mind feels like something that would be super helpful yeah and the other thing you said and it's something that we do is he told me early on no matter how tired we are no matter what's going on you can always say will you go get my pump parts and i will always go get them so we sometimes we'll get home from the airport 1 a.m we'll get in bed and I'll be like oh my god I have to pump we go get my he always every time he goes he gets him and he washes him and it's something I know I can always ask for even in the middle of the night I can tap him and like he goes and gets my pump parts and just knowing I have that support and with a good attitude with a good attitude you're doing stuff with a stank attitude then you're like I'll just throw the pump at you next time how about that and you don't even want it and that would send me into a spiral but in most of the time like this morning he sets my pump parts on me and it's just like I have to pump no matter what so to know that i have a partner in that that's like doing the most that they can with a smile on i have found to just be like so helpful and then he initiates that's the cool part it's like the initiation part versus like because you don't want to ask you don't want to be helpless you don't want to be needy that's not what we want but someone who's just like they're ready like i'm i'm the like i'm the biggest cheerleader i'm your biggest cheerleader and You don't even have to ask.

57:19Like that's irreplaceable. Totally. I totally agree. Good job. Yeah, good job. Good job. Thank you. To kind of summarize what you said from like the guy's perspective, right? Because you gave a lot of great kind of bottoms up answers, but like thematically be engaged, be attentive, listen, and recognize the dynamic. That just because you're not the one doing the action doesn't mean there's not other ways to support. And read the room as to what those ways to support are based off what your specific partner and mother is dealing with and looking for. Desiring, yeah. Enthusiasm. Enthusiasm. And what you're doing, like doing things without complaining and doing them preemptively goes miles.

58:15Like it's just I can't tell you how much. versus the dad who's totally checked out. It's the first lactation visit. He's kind of like, that's your department. My department is over here. And then you need the dad's ears to listen because you're not going to remember everything and you need someone of sound mind and body to help out with that. The education on, I think the education on pregnancy and how tolling pregnancy is, is very well out there. And I think that that was on her radar And I think there's a lot of, okay, that mindset into, into the guy on, you know, get, be supportive, lock in.

58:54Make the meals. Like, yeah. But I think that the education around how tolling. Making the milk is. The making the milk. That has been the shocker of shocker, I think, to both of us. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think we know how tolling. I like, you know, if, like, just knowing, you know, I think, like, I didn't really know going into it. But like now it's knowing when you go into that first lactation visit, like, hey, like this is going to be a big thing. And the same way that during doctor visit one, you were locked in as the support, like going into the lactation first meeting, same mindset. Totally.

59:34There's a lot of amazing. I mean, I got to say I'm blessed with like amazing dads. Like it's not that often. I also don't have the demeanor to handle a lot of crazy dads. So they don't. Which is good. I'm not having that. because you just had a whole human and you have to feed a whole human so get it together yeah so i'm really lucky that a lot of my patients are just amazing well on a whole separate note i do think that the that what's becoming more popular is engaged dads and and i love that as i don't want to say a trend but i like that that's why when people used to tell me oh your husband's babysitting like that my kids babysitting like babysitting they're his kids what do you mean he's not babysitting he's just doing his job like i don't get i'm not babysitting my kids when i'm with that.

1:00:10No, we don't need to work babysit either. Dad's just dad's with her. I'm with her. Yeah, I totally agree. Okay, thank you. Like you gave us so much good information. I'm glad. Thank you so much. And I think that my biggest takeaway is just a happy mom is a happy baby. Mental health is the most important. And it was just a fabulous episode. So thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me and considering me to be a guest on your show. I appreciate it. That is so sweet. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you guys for listening. Thanks for listening to another episode of Two Parents in a Podcast, powered by Just Media House.

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1:01:08Naiomi Catron:Read by me, Curtis Garner. Listen to the free audiobook now.