Pediatric Sleep Expert: Sleep training myths, safe co-sleeping & how to get better sleep without “training” your baby

27:19I think everybody used different methods. And I felt like if Tate wasn't sleeping through the night and their babies were, I did feel like a little bit of like, what are we doing wrong? Or like, should we do a different method or something? And what it all boiled down to was like confusion. in. I didn't know how to navigate it. I didn't know if like one method was more right or more wrong. And it's so funny because when let's say we have baby number two, I'll have a totally different thought on how to do the sleep. But when you're going through it for the first time, it's like scary and it's unknown waters and you're tired.

27:53Yeah. So it's like the one area where you're like, like when it comes to weaning off pumping, I have a very clear picture of how to do it and I'm doing it. Yep. And I read something. I thought that sounds good for me. there's no emotional attachment to it i'm thrilled to actually stop right but when it comes to sleep training i'm like it there is emotional attachments to it cry it out could work for some people it's just simply not going to work for us so it just i couldn't do it yeah i i do i do want to push a bit here though because i think what you're saying isn't something that is commonly um is commonly understood.

28:28So there's got to be a point at which there is the expectation that they start sleeping through the night, correct? Yeah. And what is that age? Two or three. Two or three. And so you're saying, hey, parents, wake up up until two or three. There's a very high chance that your baby is going to be waking up periodically throughout the night. I wouldn't say there's a very high chance. But when we look at sleep research and we have a couple of studies that look at some pretty big cohorts of children, like a couple thousand children, we see tons of variability. So at certain points, like eight months, for example, if anybody with an eight month old or eight to 10 month old is listening, you're probably waking up a ton.

29:11The study, the study showed that there were anywhere between zero and 21 wake ups at eight months. And then what it also showed is that by two years, most kids are sleeping through the night, but that some aren't until closer to three. But another thing that I talk about all the time, because this is also so important, is that if your child is ever waking up hourly, like if they're up every hour for weeks or months at a time, or they're not sleeping through the night by about two or three, like there's something going on. And this is another one of my gripes with the sleep training industry is that it sweeps a lot of these potentially dangerous medical issues under the rug and tells you to just fix it with sleep training.

29:48when really if we have a parent that's presenting to us exhausted because their child is up constantly there is something going on with that child that's not normal to be waking up that much there are things like sleep apnea iron deficiencies um you know all uh allergies all kinds of other things that i call red flags that we need to be investigating and we're really not doing a good enough job of of that oh and you're like trying to make them sleep yeah and so yeah what is the general expectation that a parent should have in terms of what the wake-up frequency is over the first 12 to 18 months of childhood.

30:28Yeah. So again, it's so variable. Like I said, at eight months, you could have a baby that's zero times and a baby that's 21 times. And like all of that in between is what we see. So I would say, I mean, personally, I would say if a baby under a year is still waking up a couple of times and they're going back to sleep relatively easily, that's pretty normal. The number of wake ups is also not necessarily the most important thing. It's what are those waking up periods looking like? So is the baby just fussing a little bit and then going back to sleep? Do you count that as a wake up? Is the baby screaming bloody murder and not settling down for an hour?

31:06That's also a wake up. So it's it really does kind of depend on what those wake-ups look like, how disruptive they are to the family, and how much sleep overall the child is getting. But I guess there's obviously a wide range, but where does it get concerning to you? It would get concerning to me if there were hourly wake-ups or upwards of six or seven wake-ups for a baby that's under one or under two. If a baby is closer to two or we're getting into toddler age, if they're waking up more than a few times, then that would be outside of the range of what we see. But again, it doesn't always mean something's wrong.

31:44And we have to look at the sleep location too. So if your baby is in a crib in their own room and they're waking up a ton, but then you decide to bring them in your bed and they co-sleep and they sleep beautifully through the night when they're next to you, then that might just be a baby that's having some separation anxiety or that just might need that extra closeness. And it's not actually that they're waking up a ton because there's something wrong with their sleep. They're just that type that needs more proximity. And that's actually normal. Let's talk about the pros of co-sleeping. Can you walk us through those?

32:14Yeah. So I co-slept with my middle and then I'm still currently co-sleeping with my toddler like half the time. She comes into our room in the middle of the night, most nights still. The pros of co-sleeping, it tends to lengthen the breastfeeding relationship. So if breastfeeding is something that's important to you, co-sleeping does make that easier. And we see longer term breastfeeding with co-sleeping families. fewer wake-ups often so the wake-ups themselves are less frequent but also they're usually quicker because you can respond more quickly and you can kind of settle them down before they get super worked up or they're fully awake and a lot of families just feel that it really increases bonding especially for parents that work about half of my community are parents that work outside the home they're not stay-at-home parents and they co-sleep for that reason they say we're away from our baby all day long co-sleeping is when we like get to be together all as a family and snuggle and spend that time that we missed out on during the day so there are so many benefits yeah so sweet and and there's um i think co-sleeping scares a lot of parents you hear um you hear some scary stories and so what are the co-sleeping best practices you would suggest parents to follow and how would you address those that say it's dangerous yeah so as far as the claims that it's dangerous, I have a bunch of articles that I can give you in for your show notes if people are interested.

33:41I would look at the safe sleep seven guidelines. So that's a set of guidelines. It says seven because it sounds cute, but there's actually a lot more things that you should follow. The most important I would say are that you have a healthy full term baby, breastfeeding mother, and people feel a lot of different ways about that. But the reason for that is just that there's this increased synchrony between baby and mom if mom is breastfeeding. and you want to have a safe sleep surface. So that means a bed that is firm, it's clear, there's no big duvets, there's no heavy pillows, there's no pets or other children in the bed and baby is lightly dressed, not swaddled.

34:16So if those conditions are met and all of the other ones that are mentioned in the safe sleep seven, then it's really not as dangerous as people think it is at all. Most of the world still co-sleeps. It's very common pretty much everywhere else. and I think there are a lot of reasons why it's so demonized in the U.S. but taking an abstinence-only approach doesn't work. So when we have our health care providers telling us don't do it under any circumstances, that's just not realistic. And abstinence-only education doesn't work for sex education. It doesn't work for drug prevention. We need to give people options to mitigate the risk because we know that most parents will end up co-sleeping, even if it's just once.

34:57We want to make sure that they're doing it safely.

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36:17Rachael Shepard-Ohta:Hungryroot.com slash two parents code two parents. So yeah, my issues with crying it out and sleep training were it started out as like a gut feeling. I would hear her crying and I would know like, OK, we're going to leave her in there. And then I just, it took me like five minutes the first time that I just looked at Harrison and I was like, I cannot do this. We also, we have just a wall between us. Like our rooms are right beside each other. So we hear her. And then I started looking up like, okay, well, I saw one comment and it said, it's not that they get tired and go to bed. It said they give up.

36:57And I just, I know a lot of people don't buy into that. And that's fine because I don't think we know. But for me, I was like, that's how I feel. And so that comment very much reflected my brain. And I was like, for me, I can't do the cry it out anymore.

37:17And I just wanted her to know she was probably scared. Maybe she was – I don't think she was hungry, but I think she was scared. And I think she just had some separation anxiety and wanted her mom and dad. and I couldn't, I didn't like the idea of letting her cry through that. And I thought I would be fine with it. I thought I'd be like, I can do this. Oh, I know. We all think that before we have to do it. Like I think so many parents go into parenthood, even pregnant, people will come to me and say, I really thought I would sleep train before I had my baby. And then they got here and I was like, I can't leave.

37:52Like it just feels, it feels wrong because it is. Like we're supposed to be responding to their cries. We're primed for that. Anybody who's ever had a baby knows if you hear a baby cry, I mean, it's the most stressful feeling in the world. And that's for a reason. We're supposed to be moved to go to them. And that's just our biology. We can't fight against that. And so, oh, sorry. Well, then she hit the Eeyore phase, which is where she would sit up and start to slump over. And when we saw that, I was like, it's over. Like, she is so sad. Like this, she can't even get her own bottle. Like she was just at the age where she could start to kind of hold it.

38:31Yeah. And it's like that little girl, like she needs us. And we were so tired, but. It's so brutal. The other thing I'll mention is that it makes sense that you're exhausted. It makes sense that you were not coping well. And this goes back to kind of just like my overarching thesis for everything I talk about, which is that we're not supposed to be doing this alone. It's actually a very, very uniquely American thing to be raising a baby in a nuclear household without help. so when we look to other cultures when we look to like hunter-gatherer societies and and the way that we were evolved to care for children it was never just the mom getting up with the baby or just the mom and dad getting up with the baby we're supposed to have this village of help so that we're not so exhausted and we're not supposed to go back to work at eight weeks and we're not supposed to have all of these other pressures right so just remembering that that it's so hard because it's not it's not supposed to be something we do by ourselves totally makes

39:27Rachael Shepard-Ohta:sense. I think that that that's kind of a great segue to build off of by kind of summarizing, I think, everything we've learned to this point and then keeping keeping the train moving forward. And so what I'm gathering is that your advice is, is, hey, parents, wake up and over the first 12 to 18 months of childhood, completely readjust your expectations. And there is not going to be a one size fits all rule that you should put the pressure on yourself to follow. And it's very likely going to look different. And so try a variety of methods. And for if you are blessed and you have a kid that starts sleeping through the night three months in, great.

40:19But if not, then try a variety of methods because what works for baby one may not work for your second baby. And that could be sleep training following six months. It could be co-sleeping. What other method, one is that like an accurate summation of your recommendation? And then two, what are other

40:49evidence-based methods for helping a baby sleep or get the highest quality sleep possible? Yeah. So this is what I love talking about because, again, not every parent wants to sleep train. Not every parent wants to co-sleep. And those things might not work even if you want them to work. So what do we do in the meantime? What are the things we can do to get the best sleep possible without with the understanding that like this is a other human we can't control them right so one thing that I love talking about is sensory input so sensory is so so important giving your baby time outside giving them time on the floor giving them time out of containers they need to explore their world they need to use their body they need to be exposed to things outside of your home and that can be one thing that is really really beneficial especially once they're mobile Once they can crawl, once they can walk, we really want to let them use their body as much as possible.

41:43That sensory input can be so calming to the nervous system. And even if you do it early in the day, like 15 minutes on the swing at noon can still help them sleep at night. So that is one thing that I recommend that can work for literally everyone, no matter what type of baby you have or what sleep method you want to use is sensory, sensory, sensory. Another one is being really flexible about your sleep location. So some babies just will not do a crib. And I teach about floor beds or Montessori beds. Have you guys heard of these? Yes. So these can be magical. They can change things literally overnight.

42:18If you're having a baby that's waking up a lot and you don't want to co-sleep. So that's one kind of like in-between option that a lot of parents use that I've used myself with my two girls. And it's the best. Another one would be another flexible option for sleep location would be co-sleeping but separate surfaces. So you could have your baby in your room, but in their own space. So whether that's a crib, whether that's one of those like side bassinets that kind of attaches to your bed. So they're not really in your bed, but they're right next to you and it's easy access. That's another kind of happy medium.

42:49And then another evidence-based strategy that I think most parents know is something they should do, but not everybody does, is a bedtime routine. There's tons of research on bedtime routines, improving sleep. It doesn't have to be anything super long or really involved, but it can just be bath, books, night, night song and getting in bed. And that can really improve things, too. And then just mentally brace that there's a real likelihood that your child will have one or two meaningful wake ups throughout the night. Yeah, it's possible. And plan accordingly. but if it is if those meaningful wake-ups are highly frequent and very long that's when you're said that's when you would suggest people to look further into is there is there a deeper issue going on for sure especially if there are other more physical symptoms so things we see a lot with something like sleep apnea would be baby is gasping or choking in their sleep or there's pauses in their breathing, if they have an open mouth or if they're really arched back when they sleep, if they have things like rashes or if they're sorry to get graphic, but if their poop is like bloody or has mucus or foam in it, like those could be signs of allergies.

44:12So just always thinking about, okay, are there other symptoms that are presenting in my child and their sleep sucks like I need to get this figured out makes sense um you spoke to the um you know historically the amount of community help towards raising a child I think in theory it would be great if we could replicate that but I think the reality of our home and most of our listeners homes is it is just just the mom and the dad yeah and so if you do have a kid mom or just mom or just dad thank you if you do have a baby that is waking you know is not sleeping through the night what do you see couples do effectively so that way um they're in the best mental mental space to deal with that yeah well one is being open to co-sleeping because it does actually really improve everybody's sleep often.

45:09If that's not something you want to do, then taking shifts is another really nice strategy so that each parent can get an uninterrupted block of sleep. So I think we have these ideas that we need eight uninterrupted hours to feel functional, which is really not actually true. As much sleep as we can get is obviously great. But even if you can get a block of three or four hours, it can really shift your mental health. So maybe that's, you know, So dad or second parent taking the first shift of the night so that you can go to bed early. Maybe you sleep from 8 to 12 and then you're on for the next shift.

45:45Or maybe that's other parent is waking up at 5 a.m. doing that early morning feed and chilling with baby. And then you get to sleep from like 5 a.m. till 7 or 8 so that you have those couple of hours where you know you're off the clock. So figuring out a schedule that will work for you can be really helpful. we we've naturally done shifts that have traded off through time yeah um one and and this could you know just be uh i don't know in our heads but what we find is who goes and gets her in the morning is who she's most attached to is that true i've never seen any evidence to support that but it is interesting i swear like so so you go through a period of time where one person is getting her in the morning and during that period of time she's more attached to that person yeah like three weeks okay one person's getting her so for the last two weeks harrison's gotten her every day and she is that that that that wants to hug she's rewarding you for being the one to come set her free i think so is that real i don't think so i've never seen any research done on this but The three weeks prior, when she was doing it, I definitely saw the preference towards her.

47:01That is very cute. But not a real thing. Not really a real thing. I mean, parent preference is a real thing. And there is this hierarchy of attachments that children can form, but it's usually not changing every three weeks.

47:13Rachael Shepard-Ohta:And why is there a parent preference? because they can really only hold one primary uh attachment at a time when they're this little so lots of times also to be frank a lot of times the mom is the food source and so that's who they're preferring um or it's just the one that is spending the most time with them or has the most attunement to them um but it's different for everybody but there's like a close second oh yeah so sure yeah kids can form multiple attachments i'm actually reading this book right now that's talking about um all of this and how like in hunter-gatherer societies and in our evolution and with apes and stuff like that there's multiple attachments that children can form that can be quite strong um which is really interesting so yeah things like daycare having a nanny things like that like they can form attachments with those people too okay yeah like she definitely knows maria and and gets excited about her of course so naps that's where i was gonna go i knew it.

48:13I knew it. Did you see my notes? No, I can't see them. Um, so right now both Winnie and Tate are 11 and some change months old. They're on two naps. They're on the morning nap and the nighttime nap, but they've started sort of protesting the morning nap. Yeah. So do you think it's a good idea to still put them in their crib, even if they just kind of roll around and play or just to start one nap? Yeah. So this is classic 11 and 12 month old. Um, there's almost always this kind of like nap refusal that happens and parents can get really confused about it because they think, Oh shit, they should just be on one nap now, but they can't make it to the one nap.

48:52And, um, it can be really confusing. So most babies are not ready for just one nap at 12 months. Some definitely are some even before that dropped to one nap. Typically though, it's more like 13 to 15 months where they'll drop down to the one nap more consistently. I mean, as far as putting them in the crib, if they're happy, you can. I prefer to have the crib just be for sleep and have them have a little bit more sleep pressure when they go in there so that they'll just fall asleep. So I would probably just push the morning nap a little bit later and then shorten the second nap. Okay. That makes a lot of sense actually.

49:26Because that way you can keep bedtime And so based off that answer, it sounds like your advice to parents over nighttime sleeping is very much feel it out based off the child. But when it comes to napping, it sounds like you suggest people be a little more structured. Not necessarily. It's more just what we see. I mean, again, everybody's different. Some babies drop to their one nap really early. My son was napping twice a day until he was like 18 months old. So sleep needs are another thing that are super individualized. two kids could have a difference of like six hours and what they require for sleep over a 24 hour period.

50:01So it's hard to nail down schedules. And, and so, but is there like a general framework that you think children should be following around napping in the first 12 months? Not really. Because again, there's, but two, well, not again, not really because there's sleep needs that are over 24 hours. So I think of sleep as like a bucket that you're kind of dipping into every time you nap or every time you fall asleep at night. The difference in two newborns, for example, for how much sleep they need, one might need 12 hours or 13 hours over the course of 24 and another might need 17. And both of them are sleeping normally and both of them are healthy.

50:41So we can't put both of those babies on the same schedule if they have needs that are different by six or seven hours. So how do you test it? Do you say, all right, we're going to try drop, we're going to try pushing the nap back and shortening the second nap for a week. Yeah. So whenever you're making a change, exactly, I would say, give it at least a week before you say, okay, this feels like it's working or it feels like it's not. Cause it's think about like jet lag, right? So whenever we're messing with our body's internal circadian rhythm and sleep patterns and stuff, it can take up to a week for us to feel normal again.

51:12So I would definitely give it at least a week to see if it's working or not. Okay. And then you adjust from there. You say, we tried that, that I'm not sure that's working. I think they are a one napper. Yeah. So we're going to try that. Yep. Okay. And then try that for a week and see if that feels better. And so things that you'd look for to see if it's not working would be they're taking a really long time to fall asleep or they're waking up super cranky or they're not going down for bed no matter what time you try, or they're waking up a lot more overnight, waking up super early in the morning.

51:42Any of those like really big new patterns would say, okay, maybe this is not going so well.

51:47Rachael Shepard-Ohta:This show is brought Brought to you by BetterHelp. And you guys, October 10th is World Mental Health Day. And this year we're saying thank you to the therapist. BetterHelp therapists have helped over 5 million people worldwide on their mental health journey. And that's millions of stories, millions of tears, millions of people that have had a chance to talk to their therapist. And behind all 5 million is a therapist who showed up, listened, and helped somebody take a step forward. Moments in therapy, like asking the right question or having a safe space to cry or celebrating a small win, they are so, so, so important.

52:23Rachael Shepard-Ohta:And you guys know I've always been a huge proponent of therapy. So October 10th, World Mental Health Day, thank you so much to the therapists. And you guys know I love BetterHelp because you can pick an online therapist. You can switch at any time. It's online. It's convenient. And it is so affordable. And I think that therapy is the number one place that you can play offense on life and not defense. And they have over 30 ,000 therapists. They're the largest online therapy platform, and they have helped serve over 5 million people globally. And it really works. That's why they have an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews.

53:02Rachael Shepard-Ohta:That is so impressive. So this World Mental Health Day, we're celebrating the therapists who have helped millions of people take a step forward. If you're ready to find the right therapist for you, BetterHelp can help you start your journey. Our listeners get 10 % off their first month at betterhelp.com slash two parents. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash two parents. So you're saying that we look at it like a 24-hour wheel, and some babies need 17 hours of sleep during that 24-hour wheel, but some babies need 11 hours of sleep. How do you know if you have a 17 or an 11-hour sleeper? Unfortunately, it's really trial and error.

53:39So what a lot of parents really like are wake windows, which are not super evidence-based, but I also don't think that they're harmful to try. They're a great, a lot of parents, when they're new parents, really love them because they feel like it gives them this kind of roadmap or this thing to go by. And for a lot of us recovering type A control freak types, it can feel like, okay, now I know this is when they should be sleeping. This is when they should be awake. A lot of parents really love tracking apps and things like that. I don't love those. But again, I do think it's a good starting point to just say, okay, yeah, they actually are falling into these wake windows pretty well.

54:15So let's just keep going with this or, oh no, this chart is saying they should be going to bed now, but they are wide awake. Like let's stretch it a little bit. And just that trial and error over a couple of weeks. If you're tuned in, you'll figure it out pretty quickly. I feel. Okay. It's a gut feeling. Yeah. Okay. um yeah it's i feel like a lot of this feels like new information to alex and i it definitely feels like you know our expectation you know pre our daughter being born and through um the first 11 months has very much been like a we hear a lot about like firm structures or rules that that parents should be following around sleep.

54:59So I think it's just really interesting to hear your take on take a step back, feel it out, and really don't put too much pressure on yourself or your child to follow a specific method. It feels like permission. It feels like permission to give yourself one, follow your gut, but two, lower your expectations. Like if your baby isn't sleeping through the night at nine months old, you don't have a problem. You don't have to go and do something. You say that's normal actually. And number two, what do I want to do about it? Well, now I get to pick because I don't have, I'm not putting pressure on myself.

55:37Right. Or do I want to do anything about it or am I actually fine? Yeah, totally. And am I just thinking it's a problem because my friend's baby is sleeping? The comparison. I feel like this could be a good transition into what's the most effective thing you see done in other countries around sleep that you think parents should be doing in the U.S.? Well, this is a very unpopular answer because here in the U.S. we like hacks and we like immediate gratification and we like everything to be very efficient. But the biggest difference is that they don't put so much pressure on sleep. They co-sleep and they expect babies to sleep through the night when they're ready.

56:20And it's not an industry in other places, right? So there's not these gadgets and products and sleep training books and manuals and classes and all of that stuff because people just expect it to unfold the way it always has. And I know when you initially earlier in the interview alluded to the sleep training industry, all of our ears perked up because we talk a lot of around the thematics of different industries and the way that their marketing campaigns have influenced let's give her one as an example like breakfast is the most important meal of a day like a doctor didn't say that the guy that founded kellogg did and he just started a marketing campaign saying don't skip breakfast it's the most important meal of the day and we're all like don't skip breakfast so can we hear but it wasn't it wasn't a thing and so the sleep training industry is sort of love to hear about the sleep training industry how much time you guys have because this is my roman empire because i was a victim of it as well so i fell victim to it when I was a new mom.

57:24And now, of course, that I'm in this world, I see it everywhere all the time. So I think one thing that's really important for parents to just be aware of is that sleep consulting is a non-regulated industry. So unlike a therapist or a doctor or a lactation consultant who need a governing body to say, yes, this person is reputable and they've been trained and they are qualified to give you advice, you could just wake up and call yourself sleep consultant and start giving people advice on the internet and a lot of people do that so that's one thing to just be super aware of is that you have to be so careful with who you get your advice from and you have to look up what their credentials are another thing is that the marketing is just the marketing is is insane so it's if your baby's not sleeping through the night it's going to ruin your marriage if your baby's not waking up or if your baby's not sleeping through the night, there's something wrong.

58:19You have to give them the gift of sleep. There's all of these very highly charged emotive phrases and words that they use. And a lot of it is fear-based marketing. So it's, you'll never sleep again unless you sleep train, or your husband will, you know, never get over it, or your older kids aren't going to get enough time from you or attention. There's all of these like fear. If you don't do this, then this is going to happen. and I just think that's really gross. But where I'll not stand up for it, but where I understand it is it's all we know sometimes. So it's all you see and then you listen to this and you hear, okay, other countries don't even have a sleep training industry.

59:03They don't even have the word sleep training. But you just assume everybody does and you don't know that until somebody tells you. I know and that was what was so mind-blowing to me when I started my account because I started to get this global audience and they started to ask, what is sleep training? Or why do you feel the need to sleep train? Like what is, and I started to understand, wow, so this is not, I don't know why I had never thought about it before, but it just kind of broke my brain. Like, oh, we don't actually have to be doing this. There are people that are very happy and living in, you know, countries that are in a lot of ways happier and more well-off than ours and they're not doing this.

59:42So, and there are obviously a lot of reasons for that too. And what, what's an example of a country that's doing this right and the benefits that they're seeing? Gosh, well, I'm writing a whole book on this right now. So it's hard to like condense, but for example, I was just in Denmark and they, um, you've probably seen viral videos of, you know, their babies sleeping outside and strollers and stuff like that. They just have like a very lax point of view about sleep. They co-sleep until their baby is about one, but they also have maternity leave for a year. So there's not that pressure of, we have to get baby sleeping through the night because I have to go back to work because they're just able to, you know, be home and be on baby mode during the day.

1:00:26So it's just a very different way of looking at things, but they're like one of the happiest countries in the world and their kids are happy and doing really well. So, um, it's all connected. And it's funny cause we had, I don't know if funny is the right word, but it's scary, but one of, um, tying it to mat leave, I believe it was Nestle. Yeah. Well, formula company in general will lobby for shorter maternity leave. So moms can't breastfeed and have to start doing formula. Yep. Um, and then you did tie into, um, and I know we kind of spoke about this at the beginning, but I really want to nail it, but you talked into, to people need to be careful about who they get their advice from on the internet.

1:01:05And so why should people take advice from you? Well, they don't have to. But. But. And that's the thing too. If you don't want to take my advice or you don't trust what I say or it doesn't work for your family, that's also fine. I want every parent to feel comfortable with who they get their advice from and what approach they choose. I've done multiple certifications in infant sleep biology. I have an infant parent mental health degree from UC Davis and I'm a former educator. I have a master's in education. So I've taken tons of like child development and psychology classes. And I have three kids and I've worked with hundreds of other families.

1:01:46But you're a certified pediatric sleep consultant. Yeah, but that doesn't mean anything.

1:01:50Rachael Shepard-Ohta:Oh. I mean, it does. Like I did the work and I took the course and I believe in the certifications that I've done. But there's no like upper regulatory body saying, yes, you are certified. It's just this person who made up a certification course and is certifying people. So it's very different from like the lactation industry where there's it's very tightly regulated by medical bodies. And you have to take these really intense tests and you have to keep up with it. It's very different. So, yeah, like I'm a sleep consultant because I consult with families on sleep and I have the education to back that up.

1:02:28and I believe in my training, but it's a little bit not real also. Wow. That is so important to say. Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of people are just not honest about that. Yeah. I don't think people know that. I mean, I did not know that and we were through the interview. Yeah. I was wondering why you weren't including that in your education. I thought, oh my gosh. Okay. I'll show you the pick of my note. Wild. Yeah. Okay. Do you have any other questions? We've learned so much. Yes. one question I didn't get the chance to ask is what is the most common mistake parents make in their first year around sleep?

1:03:03Trying to control it too much. And yeah, just trying to control it. I see so many parents who have their mental health just completely deteriorate because they're constantly trying this new method or that new method or trying, you know, this product or that product. And it just is like, they, they could be so much better off if they were less stressed about it. What about this clip that I saw, which is parents matching their bedtime to their kids bedtime? Yeah. So similarly to when we were talking about shifts, I think this is something that parents don't do nearly enough. My husband and I go to bed at like nine.

1:03:37And so this is something that we have learned just works for us because our kids do get up on the earlier side. And if you go to bed early, instead of staying up and scrolling or working or all of those things that so many of us love to do, it can help you get such better sleep overall. Because most of the time, not everybody, but most babies are doing their longer stretch at the start of the night. So they go down for bed. Maybe they sleep three, four hours, maybe a little more when they're a little bit older. And so say they don't have their first wake up until like 11 or 12, but you've just fallen asleep because you're staying up till 1030.

1:04:13Or 11. Yeah. So now you feel completely wrecked because you've missed out on this chunk of sleep that you could have had while they were sleeping. And now what happens is babies wake up more as the night goes on because they spend more time in lighter stages of sleep as early morning approaches, which means for a lot of babies, they'll do, you know, their long stretch at the beginning of the night. Then they're up maybe every hour, every two hours. So you wake up feeling like you got zero sleep. So going to bed early, aligning your body clock with your babies is huge. Even if you can only do it a few nights a week, it'll make a huge difference.

1:04:46It's so hard to do because when When the baby goes down is like when I know Tate's going to go to sleep. We'll reserve so many things to do. We'll do it once she's down. We'll open those boxes when she's asleep. Yeah. We're up till 1030 or 11 sometimes. I know. And now she's sleeping through the night. But if she was waking up at midnight, we would be wrecked. Exactly. And so many parents do this. And another huge mistake I see parents making is that they save all of those things for when the baby's asleep. See if you can do things while the baby's awake. So, you know, or split up. So what my husband and I do so that we can be totally done when the kids are down is we split our bedtime routine duties.

1:05:25So I am putting the kids to bed. I'm doing bath time, getting jammies on, reading the books, doing everything while he's cleaning up the kitchen, taking out the dog, resetting the house for the next day. So that way when they're down, everything's done and we can go to bed as early as we want. Divide and conquer. Yes. yeah that's um similar I would say to what we do but then but then I mean we got a list of things we do you got your shows I know I know you've got a chat I know we found hostage we're like just one more episode I'm like it sucks this is gonna suck when she wakes up I know it's hard because that's it feels like when they go to bed it's your only time as a couple or it's your only time to get me time and I totally got that so just try it a couple times a week no no it's really good advice like even twice a week if you can just say let's go to bed at 9 30 yeah like we did it last night we got we went to bed at 10 and so when she woke up this morning it wasn't it wasn't like oh it was like we have all slept eight hours that's wonderful yeah yeah I was like okay it's six no problem um I think this was very helpful a common theme I'll tell you through these interviews and it's so funny is it's fluid you know nobody can really sit here and say do xyz magic will happen or this is the one right way it's this way or the highway it's very read your kid and a big theme we also see is read yourself yes um as a parent and so it's just it's very refreshing so thank you so much thank you for having me thank you for coming of course you are wonderful you are very well spoken you are helpful thank you so we appreciate that i was really happy to be here and i love that that's a theme that you guys have found because i think one thing that our generation needs to give up on is that there's like one evidence-based right way to do things I think you're right just follow your gut and follow your kid and and you'll be fine kids are different so there's no way parenting making them sleep having them eat is going to be the same they're all they're all different exactly and if you guys ever have a second you'll see that that that child will be different than Tate and you have to do things differently exactly they say right?

1:07:32Like, so that's everything is different. Yeah. Um, okay. How can people find you? Plug yourself. Yes. So I am at Hey sleepy baby on Instagram. Wait, that was too fast. I think Hey at Hey, Hey sleepy baby on Instagram. My website is also just Hey sleepy baby.com. I have a podcast. I have two podcasts. Actually one is called no one told us, which is these type of interviews with experts, except I'm not the one talking it's other experts. Um, So that one's really fun. All different types of topics, feeding, parenting, toilet training, all that stuff. And then my other podcast is newer. It's called You're So Right.

1:08:08And it's just like girl chat with my friend Caitlin at Wilder Beginnings. Love it. Yeah. Absolutely love it. Two pods. Two pods. Two pods, a website and Instagram. Yep. Okay. Hey, sleepy baby. Yes. Thank you so much. Thank you. My pleasure.

1:08:23Rachael Shepard-Ohta:Thanks for listening to another episode of Two Parents in a Podcast powered by Just Media House. If you enjoyed the show, don't forget to like, subscribe, comment, rate, and review. Stay connected on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and Facebook at 2ParentsAndAPod. Welcome to our home. Sorry it's so messy. New episodes Mondays and Thursdays.

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